as someone who has seen frank robinson obliterate middle infielders my only issue with holliday's slide is that the game has changed and so middle infielders aren't of the mindset to be prepared for that type of effort by holliday. scutaro was behind the bag and the way the game is currently played was assuming that holliday would slide through the bag, not jump through the bag in a rolling block.

my point is that what holliday did was very common in the 60's, kind of common in the 70's and then as the years passed the guys who did this as a matter of course have all but vanished. so when it does crop up it's in the postseason as players look for every edge.

there are lots of players who do a hard slide into second which typically entails sliding through the bag with one leg up and arms up as a form of hindrance. and the second baseman falls on top of them bracing himself with his arms and everybody gets up and pats each other and that's that.

players have recognized that the holliday type slide can mess up a guy's career and that is perceived as crossing a line. or that's my guess and i think a pretty accurate one.

and it's not like holliday can holler down in advance to tell someone that he is going to be crashing through the bag on a dp grounder.

it's tough on everyone. part of me is glad to see the playoffs still matter to folks. but i hate the idea of a guy missing playoff games or more due to this stuff. and i cannot imagine any cards fan wants to get the upper hand in a series in this manner.

That slide was ridiculous. I agree that sliding through the bag with your leg up is fine and expected. But jumping at the fielder when he's behind the bag is unacceptable.

Even if it was done before, I still think its a dirty play. Why even slide, why not allow runners to tackle the second baseman? Its a charade anyway.

ag1

i don't know if it's available on youtube given mlb's policies but there were lots of slides in the 70's playoffs that resembled holliday's slide. hal mcrae taking out willie randolph. the reds had several guys (rose, morgan, grifey) who would plow into second.

i am not saying it was 'right'. just pointing out that it did happen

I just looked at the play and that was awful. Botchy isn't exaggerating. Holliday doesn't hit dirt until AFTER 2nd base. That's a shitty play. I read through some of the "Why I hate the Cards" thread yesterday and couldn't bring myself to agree. If they routinely do this stuff, count me in on the hate.

jim

as an nl central diehard i can state very clearly this was a 'playoff slide'. only yadier does this stuff during the regular season and he rarely gets the chance because he runs like a 3-legged steer and cannot get on top of the middle infielder fast enough to make a difference.

but holliday has always been willing to mix it up. he's a tough guy which pretty much describes the cardinals. as i have written about previously tony and matheny too are taking advantage of the market by instilling a toughness in the team not seen on many other teams which over the course of a season gives the cardinals an edge. when everyone else is patting backs and being professional but not pushing the competitive edge and your team is when things 'matter' your guys have the upper hand.

mike matheny once took a pitch to the face and played the next day. mike's legitimately tough. i would expect nothing less of his players

Holliday could have easily ended Scutaro's career with that slide. If his foot had been just a little more firmly planted his knee would have been destroyed.

Really no different from the tackle that took out Posey a couple years ago. No call for it; lunging over the base of sliding a few feet wide of the base & not attempting to tag it both ought to result in ejections.

Dirty play, not illegal. Cards fan and all, but yeah... would be a lot better if stuff like that (and the kill the catcher at home plate plays) would have some kind of repercussions.

I don't see what's tough about barreling into a smaller player while he's completely unprotected.

My first thought upon seeing the play was, "I hope Scutaro slugs him."

Harvey, but you're talking about slides from almost 40 years ago. It's fair to note times and baseball mores have changed.

What Holliday did was unacceptable in today's game.

I'm not sure what the rule was changed to but, it seems to me, the rule ought to be that it has to be a slide to the base. That is, you have to hit the ground significantly in front of second base and slide thought it. That gives the infielder the chance to stay on the far side of the base - if the infielder wants to come through the base to the 1B side, he does so at his own risk.

Penalty should be an interference call.

In any case, Holliday slides about like he fields, so it could have just been a hard slide that missed. I don't think I'd label HIM dirty, just the play itself.

And, as I said in another thread, if I'm Holliday, I don't dig in my first AB against the Giants in spring training. Or if I come to the plate in a blowout this week.

In any case, Holliday slides about like he fields, so it could have just been a hard slide that missed.

I like to think a proper slide would involve propelling oneself sort of downward, in the direction of the base. So he really missed by quite a lot with his flying leap over the bag like Simeon Rice over a prostrate offensive lineman.

Hardball Times has an awesome video from the '72 World Series with Joe Morgan literally throwing a body block to the midesection of Dick Green on a play it second.

Talk about a takeout!

Harvey, but you're talking about slides from almost 40 years ago. It's fair to note times and baseball mores have changed.

From HW's first post, comment #1:

as someone who has seen frank robinson obliterate middle infielders my only issue with holliday's slide is that the game has changed and so middle infielders aren't of the mindset to be prepared for that type of effort by holliday. scutaro was behind the bag and the way the game is currently played was assuming that holliday would slide through the bag, not jump through the bag in a rolling block.

Didn't he note that times and baseball mores have changed more than once in his first post?

And the famous (infamous?) McRae takeout of Wille Randolph:

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images//visual/whatshot/mcrae.gif

Not as bad as the Hal McRae playoff obliteration slide at second base, but still dirty and not merely a "hard slide". However, the scene in "Naked Gun" where the car took out the infielder was far worse.

I can't recall: Why did the McRae-Randolph umpire give two out calls, the latter one way more emphatic? Was he ruling it a double play?

Like Bochy, I was under the impression that it wasn't the case of ballplayers' attitudes changing, but that baseball specifically outlawed the Hal McRae-style rolling block as part of the Middle Infield Rescue Act of the late 80s/early 90s (which also required the approaching runner be able to touch the bag during his slide).

However, if it wasn't specifically against the rules, it should be by Opening Day 2013.

SoSH, I'm of the same mind. I think the play probably was illegal, at least given what I've heard/read. However, I can't find anything concrete.

Unfortunately, the fact that the umps didn't call it illegal is not persuasive given how overall $hitty they've been this postseason.

I can't recall: Why did the McRae-Randolph umpire give two out calls, the latter one way more emphatic? Was he ruling it a double play?

I think McRae is arguing that he should have been safe---you can see as McRae comes up he's pointing to second, and that's when the ump makes his second, more emphatic call.

Didn't he note that times and baseball mores have changed more than once in his first post?

You expect me to read all that? My outrage needed voicing!

No, thanks, I see he said exactly the same thing.

I would vote for making this illegal, since it seems foolish to expose players unnecessarily to injuries, but even though I hate the Cardinals I can't really get worked up about this. It's a tough, maybe mean-spirited play, but that's what competition brings out and why it's up to the rule-makers to set boundaries. Players naturally push the limits, and I can't fault the Cardinals for that.

I keep reading this was not illegal. I thought the rule had been changed many years ago that the player had to be able to remain in contact with the bag at the end of the slide. I guess I have the same recollection roughly as SoSH but I can't find it in the rule book.

The good thing is this play distracts us from the bone-headed play by Holliday on Huff's pop-up single that landed between him and Freese.

I think McRae is arguing that he should have been safe---you can see as McRae comes up he's pointing to second, and that's when the ump makes his second, more emphatic call.

How can he think he's safe? He's about 15 feet past the bag by the time he's done moving.

To me, what made the play really bad was how Holliday hooks Scutaro's leg with his arm. It's one thing to try to take out his knees, but Holliday was trapping Scutaro's body to make injury more likely. Dirty play.

None of us knows what was going on in Holliday's head, but I really doubt he was trying to hurt Scutaro. Clearly he was being aggressive and trying to break up the DP by forcing Scutaro to jump out of the way (or be knocked down). But if you want to inflict damage, you go in with your shoulder (like Morgan on Green) or you go in with your legs kicking and "sweep the leg." If you look closely, Holliday hits Scurato with his chest, and with his arms raised. It's very awkward, and not how you "take someone out." My guess is Holliday was surprised that Scurato was still standing there when he arrived -- in the vast majority of cases, the 2B jumps out of the way long before Matt Holliday can get to 2B -- and did what he could at the last instant to minimize damage.

No doubt it's an aggressive play, and I'd be fine with a rules change to protect infielders more. But I doubt Holliday was trying to hurt anybody.

This is the not the first Holliday takeout slide of note.

Spike him the next three times he gets on base. Return redass for redass.

This is the not the first Holliday takeout slide of note.

Probably should have ruled an automatic double play there. Holliday didn't even try to touch the bag, he's not close to it.

None of us knows what was going on in Holliday's head,

Well, in his own words: “Like I said, I wish I had started my slide a step earlier. When you’re out there in the heat of the moment, you’re trying to keep your team out of the double play. I play hard and was trying to break up a double play. That’s all it comes down to. I’m trying to break up a double play.”

This is the not the first Holliday takeout slide of note.

Probably should have ruled an automatic double play there. Holliday didn't even try to touch the bag, he's not close to it.

Come on, it was the Cubs.

I bought my car from a salesman that looked identical to Holliday, expect about 15% smaller. He even had the same roof-shaped shaved head. He was the antithesis of any other car salesman I've ever dealt with (he was soft spoken, indecisive and meek). As such, psychologically I have a hard time imagining Holiday as a dirty player. I have no problem with his takeout of Castro in the link above, but the one last night was a bit much.

i know folks think it was a rule change but the umpires only called the 'in the vicinity' for a few years consistently and then all but tossed it into the dustbin save for every so often when a guy, like albert belle, would do something really egregious

it 'was' a mindset change with the players and it had to be tied to the money boom of the 90's when even lasting a year or two would allow you to bank a million bucks. nobody was interested in being the villain in ruining a guy's chance to get that level of moola.

this is not a post calling the current players 'soft'. the trend was already in this direction of minimizing contact out at second base. but the players attitude accelerated the reduction in truly nasty double play collisions.

The good thing is this play distracts us from the bone-headed play by Holliday on Huff's pop-up single that landed between him and Freese.

He was clearly expecting the infield fly to be called.

I can't recall: Why did the McRae-Randolph umpire give two out calls, the latter one way more emphatic? Was he ruling it a double play?

Looks like McRae is arguing he should be safe because Randolph dropped the ball after he was taken out. The ump then ends that argument with a decisive out call in McRae's face.

To me, what made the play really bad was how Holliday hooks Scutaro's leg with his arm. It's one thing to try to take out his knees, but Holliday was trapping Scutaro's body to make injury more likely. Dirty play.

Holliday is clearly just keeping his arms up in the classic "I didn't do anything, my arms are straight up" pose that every athlete does when they foul someone and the official calls them out on it. Happens in basketball, football, soccer, hockey all the time.

Really no different from the tackle that took out Posey a couple years ago. No call for it; lunging over the base of sliding a few feet wide of the base & not attempting to tag it both ought to result in ejections.

As with that play there is a segment of players and fans that have no issue with what Holliday did. The difference between the 2 plays is that obviously you cannot run over the 2nd baseman and Posey was out of position on the play at home.

I can't stop watching that Joe Morgan tackle. Obviously that cannot be allowed to happen, and obviously Super Joe is about the most annoying person in broadcasting, but that was a tough-ass team, wasn't it? I'm biased but I'd still rather watch them play in their primes tomorrow than any other team of my lifetime.

i don't know if it's available on youtube given mlb's policies but there were lots of slides in the 70's playoffs that resembled holliday's slide. hal mcrae taking out willie randolph. the reds had several guys (rose, morgan, grifey) who would plow into second.

i am not saying it was 'right'. just pointing out that it did happen

I know you aren't explicitly saying it was "right," but your post sure the Hell implies that historical precedence indicates as much. Which is ridiculous of course.

It was illegal and pretty nasty. If baseball weren't a crock you'd hear something from the league on it.

<EDIT: evidently, is was within the rules because he wasn't called out. See #43.>

as an nl central diehard i can state very clearly this was a 'playoff slide'.

WTF is a playoff slide? One in which all rules are thrown out the window?

<EDIT: evidently, is was within the rules because he wasn't called out. See #43.>

Here is what I believe are the applicable rules from mlb.com.

"(d) Any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate;
Rule 7.09(d) Comment: If the batter or a runner continues to advance after he has been put out, he shall not by that act alone be considered as confusing, hindering or impeding the fielders.

(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.

(f) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball, with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead; the umpire shall call the batter-runner out for interference and shall also call out the runner who had advanced closest to the home plate regardless where the double play might have been possible. In no event shall bases be run because of such interference."

As with nearly every rule in this game, it is completely left up to the judgement of the umpire. Thus, there is no wrong or right answer to whether it was illegal; it was legal because the umpire said so.

It's no wonder I find myself watching less and less baseball these days.

None of us knows what was going on in Holliday's head, but I really doubt he was trying to hurt Scutaro. Clearly he was being aggressive and trying to break up the DP by forcing Scutaro to jump out of the way (or be knocked down). But if you want to inflict damage, you go in with your shoulder (like Morgan on Green) or you go in with your legs kicking and "sweep the leg." If you look closely, Holliday hits Scurato with his chest, and with his arms raised. It's very awkward, and not how you "take someone out." My guess is Holliday was surprised that Scurato was still standing there when he arrived -- in the vast majority of cases, the 2B jumps out of the way long before Matt Holliday can get to 2B -- and did what he could at the last instant to minimize damage.

I don't know about that. If he wanted to take out Scutaro's ankle or knee, Holliday could not have aimed the slide much better. I did not see or hear about it or know what was injured, until after seeing the replay on MLB.com. My first thought was that he injured his ankle, just like Jeter.

I am not saying he aimed to hurt Scutaro, just noting that I don't think we can infer intent based on how he hit him in this instance.

super

well, your posts indicate you want to pick a fight where no fight exists but this is a slide that is far more likely to happen in the playoffs than in a june game between the cardinals and marlins. it's a matter of what is at stake.

that is all i meant.

regarding post 41 i was merely working to provide some historical background. once upon a time many players rolled into second base on a double play turn as a part of daily effort. it just 'was'.

to suggest this was not the case is to deny the facts.

Again, bury some spikes in Pete Kozma's thigh on the next play at second, or spike the firstbaseman's foot on the run through of the bag at first and the message will take.

None of us knows what was going on in Holliday's head, but I really doubt he was trying to hurt Scutaro.

So it's just third degree assault. Got it.

What if Lincecum plops Holliday in the head and cracks his skull next game? He wouldn't have been trying to hurt him, but it sure would be a dangerous play. What would be the reaction I wonder?

regarding post 41 i was merely working to provide some historical background. once upon a time many players rolled into second base on a double play turn as a part of daily effort. it just 'was'.

to suggest this was not the case is to deny the facts.

What is the purpose of providing historical background other than to provide an excuse through precedent? While maybe not intended, it sure the hell was interpreted that way by at least two posters (myself and the gentleman in #11). If that wasn't intended, I retract my comment, but please don't act like there is no potential for that interpretation.

well, your posts indicate you want to pick a fight where no fight exists but this is a slide that is far more likely to happen in the playoffs than in a june game between the cardinals and marlins. it's a matter of what is at stake.

Ok but that doesn't make it any less dirty. Again, I was inferring that you were excusing the behavior simply because it was the playoffs.

super

if you read the game thread i called the slide out of line

if the game were played in a climate where middle infielders were conditioned to expect that stuff i would be more understanding but that is not the game played today and scutaro could have been seriously injured.

he leaped over the bag for heaven's sake and onto scutaro's legs.

I am not saying he aimed to hurt Scutaro, just noting that I don't think we can infer intent based on how he hit him in this instance.

Well, we obviously can't be sure. But we've all seen take out plays, and I don't think I've ever seen one where where the runner goes in chest first. If Holliday was trying to hurt Scutaro, he chose a weird way to go about it.