Less than half of the single team pitchers with 5 career WAR did not make it 10 seasons.

Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2012, (requiring WAR_pitch>=5, year_max<=2009 and year_max>=1975)

                                                                                                  
Rk                  Player  WAR   To From   To   Age   G  GS   W   L W-L%  SV     IP  ERA ERA+  Tm
1         Brandon Webb   1 31.5 2009 2003 2009 24-30 199 198  87  62 .584   0 1319.2 3.27  142 ARI
2           Noah Lowry   1  8.6 2007 2003 2007 22-26 106 100  40  31 .563   0  618.1 4.03  109 SFG
3           Mark Prior   1 15.0 2006 2002 2006 21-25 106 106  42  29 .592   0  657.0 3.51  124 CHC
4           Brad Radke   1 42.6 2006 1995 2006 22-33 378 377 148 139 .516   0 2451.0 4.22  113 MIN
5       Jeff Zimmerman   1  7.2 2001 1999 2001 26-28 196   0  17  12 .586  32  228.2 3.27  151 TEX
6    Francisco Cordova   1 13.3 2000 1996 2000 24-28 166 112  42  47 .472  12  753.2 3.96  112 PIT
7          Jose Rosado   1  9.4 2000 1996 2000 21-25 125 112  37  45 .451   1  720.1 4.27  113 KCR
8         Mike Sirotka   1  8.9 2000 1995 2000 24-29 125 111  45  42 .517   0  710.1 4.31  111 CHW
9         Roger Pavlik   1  9.6 1998 1992 1998 24-30 131 125  47  39 .547   1  743.0 4.58  103 TEX
10         Bill Wegman   1 16.2 1995 1985 1995 22-32 262 216  81  90 .474   2 1482.2 4.16  102 MIL
11       Teddy Higuera   1 28.9 1994 1985 1994 27-36 213 205  94  64 .595   0 1380.0 3.61  117 MIL
12        Randy Tomlin   1  5.3 1994 1990 1994 24-28 106  94  30  31 .492   0  580.1 3.43  107 PIT
13     Mark Williamson   1  5.5 1994 1987 1994 27-34 365  15  46  35 .568  21  689.2 3.86  108 BAL
14      Allan Anderson   1  7.6 1991 1986 1991 22-27 148 128  49  54 .476   0  818.2 4.11  102 MIN
15      Scott Garrelts   1  8.7 1991 1982 1991 20-29 352  89  69  53 .566  48  959.1 3.29  108 SFG
16         Mike Norris   1  7.1 1990 1975 1990 20-35 201 157  58  59 .496   0 1124.1 3.89   96 OAK
17         Bob Stanley   1 21.6 1989 1977 1989 22-34 637  85 115  97 .542 132 1707.0 3.64  118 BOS
18          Ron Guidry   1 45.4 1988 1975 1988 24-37 368 323 170  91 .651   4 2392.0 3.29  119 NYY
19      Scott McGregor   1 17.7 1988 1976 1988 22-34 356 309 138 108 .561   5 2140.2 3.99   98 BAL
20          Mario Soto   1 24.6 1988 1977 1988 20-31 297 224 100  92 .521   4 1730.1 3.47  108 CIN
21      Dennis Leonard   1 23.3 1986 1974 1986 23-35 312 302 144 106 .576   1 2187.0 3.70  107 KCR
22         Britt Burns   1 16.8 1985 1978 1985 19-26 193 161  70  60 .538   3 1094.1 3.66  111 CHW
23           Rick Camp   1 12.3 1985 1976 1985 23-32 414  65  56  49 .533  57  942.1 3.37  115 ATL
24           Luis Leal   1  9.5 1985 1980 1985 23-28 165 151  51  58 .468   1  946.0 4.14  103 TOR
25       Steve McCatty   1  8.1 1985 1977 1985 23-31 221 161  63  63 .500   5 1188.1 3.99   95 OAK
Rk                  Player  WAR   To From   To   Age   G  GS   W   L W-L%  SV     IP  ERA ERA+  Tm
26        Steve Rogers   1 42.2 1985 1973 1985 23-35 399 393 158 152 .510   2 2837.2 3.17  116 MON
27          Jim Palmer   1 63.2 1984 1965 1984 19-38 558 521 268 152 .638   4 3948.0 2.86  125 BAL
28     Paul Splittorff   1 19.5 1984 1970 1984 23-37 429 392 166 143 .537   1 2554.2 3.81  101 KCR
29     Albert Williams   1  5.7 1984 1980 1984 26-30 120  97  35  38 .479   2  642.2 4.24   99 MIN
30   Larry Christenson   1  7.6 1983 1973 1983 19-29 243 220  83  71 .539   4 1402.2 3.79   99 PHI
31        Jerry Garvin   1  6.5 1982 1977 1982 21-26 196  65  20  41 .328   8  606.0 4.43   94 TOR
32   Francisco Barrios   1  7.6 1981 1974 1981 21-28 129 102  38  38 .500   3  718.0 4.15   95 CHW
33         Steve Busby   1 15.1 1980 1972 1980 22-30 167 150  70  54 .565   0 1060.2 3.72  105 KCR
34        Mark Fidrych   1 10.8 1980 1976 1980 21-25  58  56  29  19 .604   0  412.1 3.10  126 DET
35         John Hiller   1 29.6 1980 1965 1980 22-37 545  43  87  76 .534 125 1242.0 2.83  134 DET
36        J.R. Richard   1 19.9 1980 1971 1980 21-30 238 221 107  71 .601   0 1606.0 3.15  108 HOU
37         Bob Apodaca   1  5.0 1977 1973 1977 23-27 184  11  16  25 .390  26  361.1 2.86  123 NYM
38        Bart Johnson   1  8.2 1977 1969 1977 19-27 185  97  43  51 .457  17  809.1 3.94   96 CHW
39           Bob Moose   1  6.1 1976 1967 1976 19-28 289 160  76  71 .517  19 1303.2 3.50   99 PIT
40          Bob Gibson   1 77.5 1975 1959 1975 23-39 528 482 251 174 .591   6 3884.1 2.91  127 STL

That list is amazing. Since Bob Stanley in 1989, the only pitcher who has retired as a well-known one-team man is Brad Radke. Everyone else had their careers cut short by injury and most of them joined other teams before being deemed fully unable to pitch. (e.g. Sirotka traded to Toronto, Teddy Higuera with the 1995 Padres)

Sent with Bret Boone to the Padres in the Braves steroid purge trade of 1999. Worked out terribly of course. Reggie Sanders was terrible, Wally Joyner was toasty, Quilvio Veras was Quilvio Veras. The late Klesko years when he got off the juice and was basically half of his former self (Pudge style) were memorable.

What's the basis for calling this the "steroid purge" trade? And didn't the Braves pick up Ken f'n Caminiti just a couple years later?

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Royce Clayton

Ceo at Balltunes
Greater Los Angeles Area
Entertainment [...]

BACKGROUND

SUMMARY

Balltunes looks to become the industry leader in bridging the gap between sports and entertainment. Through our unique positioning and license with MLBPA, Major League Baseball Player's Association. We create new content via a music platform to generate and expand brand awareness and growth for both the player and artist.

Our business philosophy is to bring real interaction with athletes and celebrities in rich media experiences that will drive continued revenue growth and expansion opportunities.

Specialties: Branding and Marketing

EXPERIENCE

Ceo

Balltunes

February 2010 – Present (3 years)In charge of Balltunes player relations and recruitment for all MLB players.

CEO

Global Genius

March 2007 – November 2009 (2 years 9 months)

Partner

M&M Clayton

January 2006 – April 2008 (2 years 4 months)

EDUCATION

Cal State Northridge

1989 – 1991

St. Bernard's High School, signed letter of intent to attend USC

1988 – 1988

Ben Oglivie through age 29: 18 HR per 162. Ages 30-33: 35, going as high as 41. Too obvious.

Well, if there was one team I'd throw baseless random roid early adopter accusations at, those Brewers teams make a good target -- Deer, Thomas, Oglivie, Hisle, Molitor (druggie!). Plus the Brewers are known league-switchers.

Less than half of the single team pitchers with 5 career WAR did not make it 10 seasons.

c'mon Bob, folks are still hung over. :-)

Great article.

The main thing I remember about Ryan Klesko is that he had the worst facial hair of all time.

What's the basis for calling this the "steroid purge" trade? And didn't the Braves pick up Ken f'n Caminiti just a couple years later?

Because it was, and yes they did. That also worked out terribly. The Braves struggled for years with what to do about juicing players beginning with the spring when Ron Gant showed up looking like a superhero.

Are you referring to the Wisp Manchu, the Wedge Beard, the Neck Wedge Beard, the Landing Strip, or the Scraggle Fuzz? Oh, wait. It must be this.

Because it was, and yes they did.

Any relevant material to back this up? I find it hard to believe that any successful team in the 90's purged roiders out of the organization. I find that to be naive beyond belief(makes believing in the tooth fairy or trickle down economics positively sane in comparison)

I thought the Alomar ranking was low too, but when I looked at his BB Ref page I saw this,



He just wasn't that durable during what should have been his prime. He missed what, 250 games there, if he had averaged 120 per season from age 25 thru 29.

My enduring memory of Ryan Klesko was once or twice when he visited Philadelphia in his latter years with the Padres, the photo they showed on the jumbotron at Citizens Bank Park had him squinting with one eye, so me and my buddy dubbed him "Pirate Klesko".

He just wasn't that durable during what should have been his prime. He missed what, 250 games there, if he had averaged 120 per season from age 25 thru 29.

And yet, despite all those games missed in his 20s, Alomar Jr still managed to rank 49th in games caught all time.

Ryan Klesko walked into the retail store where I was working in San Diego. He is huge. He was also extremely well manicured - wore high quality clothes that were cut perfectly for him. He really looked like a star. I had the same experience a few years later when I saw Kenny G in an antiques store in Berkeley. Kenny G looked like a star too.

Are you referring to the Wisp Manchu, the Wedge Beard, the Neck Wedge Beard, the Landing Strip, or the Scraggle Fuzz? Oh, wait. It must be this.

Man, he had some terrible beard range. I can't find a picture of his worst offender, the weird thin cut line full beard.

When Finley and Caminiti came to the Padres from the Astros (Kevin Towers' best deal as Padres GM that I can think of), I just assumed at the time that the dual power surges in 1996 was just an effect of getting out of the Astrodome. Looking back on it knowing what I know now, hmm?

Finley was known for doing a lot of reps with lighter weights (working on building endurance) rather than working with heavier weights for strength-building. He was also big into yoga, stretching, flexibility-focused workouts, too.

Ryan Klesko is one of my favorite players ever. Big, likable lug of a player, loved the follow-through on his home run swing, even enjoyed his adventures in the outfield. Surprisingly good baserunner. I hated it when the Braves traded him.

Colin - Mark Kotsay used to tell an amusing story from about circa 2001 or so - when he and Klesko were both on the Padres. According to Kotsay, one game he was batting behind Klesko in the lineup, so he was in the on-deck circle while Klesko was batting. Klesko hit this monster HR and just stood there at home plate admiring the flight path of his rocket launch. Kotsay looked at the ball flying out, looked at Klesko preening and then looked out at the mound where the pitcher was glaring at Klesko and really getting steamed. Kotsay started screaming at Klesko to get moving around the bases - as Kotsay put it "The longer you wait, you <bleep>, the worse it's gonna be for me!" Klesko finally started making his slow trot around the bases. Sure enough, as soon as Kotsay stood in to hit, he got plunked on the first pitch!

I haven't looked up play-by-plays to see if there are any games where a)Klesko homered, b)Kotsay was batting behind him and c)Kotsay was HBP immediately after Klesko homered - so I can't at the moment verify the date this supposedly happened - but it's a funny story nevertheless!

I like how Gibby shows up as the only pitcher on #49.

Jeff Cirillo: One of 100 best third basemen ever, certainly, maybe one of 50 best

.... say what?! I can understand that some of these guys rank much better than you might otherwise things (e.g. Shawn Green as a Top 50 RF I can get behind) but my initial reaction to this is to think that Cirillo in or near the Top 50 is crazy talk.

Any of you have a list you'd like to share that would show Cirillo's place? He had 112 career HR, an OPS+ of 102 and only 1600 games. I don't recall his defense being noteworthy either.

Also a little strange that he'd call Woody Williams one of the Top 250 starting pitchers of all time but Aaron Sele as only one of the Top 400.

Williams, 132-116, 103 ERA+, 2216 IP, one all star game, no Cy Young votes ever
Sele, 148-112, 100 ERA+, 2153 IP, 2 all star games, one top 5 Cy Young finish

Great, great work by Posnanski as always.

Any of you have a list you'd like to share that would show Cirillo's place? He had 112 career HR, an OPS+ of 102 and only 1600 games. I don't recall his defense being noteworthy either.

B-R gives Cirillo 32 WAR, with five seasons between 4 and 6; that's almost certainly top-100 at least, and could conceivably be top-50. B-R does like his defense a lot, with a career mark of +85, and individual seasons of +20, +18, +18, +9, +9, +7. I have no particular reason to believe or disbelieve those numbers, but they did come while he played for three different teams.

To take the quickest-slash-crudest reasonable summary measurement, Cirillo is 44th in career WAR among players with 50% or more of games at 3B. As mentioned, WAR likes his defense; he is 73rd among that group in WAR batting runs.

Re: Alomar Jr.: Obviously All-Star selections are not a perfect metric, but the guy did make the team six times between 1990 and 1998, despite playing for Cleveland and having no particular national profile. I don't remember any of his selections being controversial (not that a Sandy Alomar Jr. All-Star controversy would necessarily be seared in my memory.) It seems to me that for a player to be consistently judged among the very best in his league for nine years and yet arguably not even top 100 overall all-time, that would have to be one hell of an extended weak positional run for the entire league. I guess it's possible, but it sounds unlikely.

This article is what I most remember about Aaron Sele.

Colin - Mark Kotsay used to tell an amusing story from about circa 2001 or so - when he and Klesko were both on the Padres. According to Kotsay, one game he was batting behind Klesko in the lineup, so he was in the on-deck circle while Klesko was batting. Klesko hit this monster HR and just stood there at home plate admiring the flight path of his rocket launch. Kotsay looked at the ball flying out, looked at Klesko preening and then looked out at the mound where the pitcher was glaring at Klesko and really getting steamed. Kotsay started screaming at Klesko to get moving around the bases - as Kotsay put it "The longer you wait, you <bleep>, the worse it's gonna be for me!" Klesko finally started making his slow trot around the bases. Sure enough, as soon as Kotsay stood in to hit, he got plunked on the first pitch!

I haven't looked up play-by-plays to see if there are any games where a)Klesko homered, b)Kotsay was batting behind him and c)Kotsay was HBP immediately after Klesko homered - so I can't at the moment verify the date this supposedly happened - but it's a funny story nevertheless!

I cannot find it.

Start with the Kotsay HBP for common years on SDP:

From B-R:

Mark Kotsay: 6 Hit By Pitches in 2001-2003

                                                                                                                                                   
Cr#   Yr# Gm#       Date  Tm Opp        Pitcher     Score Inn RoB Out Pit(cnt)Sequence RBI  WPA RE24   LI                          Play Description
2       1   1 2001-06-07 SDP SFG Ryan Vogelsong ahead 2-6  t6 ---   0           4(1-2)   0 0.01 0.38  .25                              Hit By Pitch
3       2   1 2001-06-25 SDP COL   Shawn Chacon  tied 0-0  t3 12-   1           2(1-0)   0 0.06 0.67 2.03 Hit By Pitch Jarvis to 3B Henderson to 2B

                                                                                                                                    
Cr#   Yr# Gm#       Date  Tm Opp       Pitcher      Score Inn RoB Out Pit(cnt)Sequence RBI  WPA RE24   LI           Play Description
4       1   1 2002-07-07 SDP COL Brian Fuentes  ahead 0-4  t8 1-3   0           1(0-0)   0 0.00 0.50  .10 Hit By Pitch Jimenez to 2B
5       2   1 2002-08-11 SDP CIN    Gabe White   down 7-4  t8 -2-   0           1(0-0)   0 0.06 0.37 1.55               Hit By Pitch
6       3   1 2002-08-27 SDP HOU   Nelson Cruz ahead 6-11  t8 ---   2           7(2-2)   0 0.00 0.13  .03               Hit By Pitch

                                                                                                                                                
Cr#   Yr# Gm#       Date  Tm Opp      Pitcher    Score Inn RoB Out Pit(cnt)Sequence RBI  WPA RE24   LI                          Play Description
7       1   1 2003-04-06 SDP LAD Odalis Perez down 3-2  b7 12-   1           1(0-0)   0 0.12 0.66 4.20 Hit By Pitch Buchanan to 3B Loretta to 2B

Check Klesko HR - only 4 matches possible, in 2002:

                                                                                                                                                                      
Cr#   Yr# Gm#       Date  Tm Opp       Pitcher     Score Inn RoB Out Pit(cnt)Sequence RBI  WPA RE24   LI                                              Play Description
211    16   1 2002-07-07 SDP COL  Shawn Chacon ahead 0-1  t3 ---   0           5(3-1)   1 0.10 1.00  .89                                  Home Run (Fly Ball to CF-RF)
212    17   2 2002-07-07 SDP COL  Denny Neagle ahead 0-3  t7 ---   0           3(1-1)   1 0.05 1.00  .41                                           Home Run (Fly Ball)
216    21   1 2002-08-11 SDP CIN Brian Moehler  tied 0-0  t1 --3   1           3(1-1)   2 0.12 1.32 1.32                            Home Run (Fly Ball) Vazquez Scores
219    24   1 2002-08-27 SDP HOU   Nelson Cruz ahead 4-7  t7 123   1           8(3-2)   4 0.06 2.68  .96 Home Run (Fly Ball) Kingsale Scores Matos Scores Nevin Scores

Check the lineups:

7/7/02:

                     
Batting              
  Ramon Vazquez  2B    
DAngelo Jimenez  3B  
    Mark Kotsay  CF      
    Ryan Klesko  1B      
       Ron Gant  LF         
    Trent Hubbard  LF    
 Bubba Trammell  RF   
        Steve Reed  P        
    Trevor Hoffman  P    
     Deivi Cruz  SS       
   Wiki Gonzalez  C     
    Oliver Perez  P      
    Brian Lawrence  P    
        Mike Holtz  P        
    Gene Kingsale  RF    

Kotsay and then Klesko get hit by pitch back-to-back in the 8th after Klesko's HR in the 7th.

8/11/02:

                        
Batting                 
 Ramon Vazquez  2B       
         Trevor Hoffman  P       
         Trent Hubbard  PH       
    Brandon Villafuerte  P  
  Mark Kotsay  CF         
           Kevin Walker  P         
          Julius Matos  2B        
   Ryan Klesko  1B         
    Phil Nevin  3B          
      Ron Gant  LF            
    Deivi Cruz  SS          
Bubba Trammell  RF      
    Tom Lampkin  C          
    Bobby Jones  P          
        Brian Buchanan  PH      
         Jason Kershner  P       
           Jeremy Fikac  P         
             Mike Holtz  P           
              Tom Davey  P            
      Gene Kingsale  PH-CF 

Kotsay HBP in top of the 8th, Klesko HR in t1.

                        
Batting                 
   Mark Kotsay  CF         
  Julius Matos  2B        
      Brandon Villafuerte  P  
    Phil Nevin  3B          
   Ryan Klesko  1B         
      Ron Gant  LF            
         Jonathan Johnson  P     
           Ramon Vazquez  2B       
Bubba Trammell  RF      
        Trent Hubbard  PR-LF    
    Deivi Cruz  SS          
  Wiki Gonzalez  C        
     Mike Bynum  P           
             Jeremy Fikac  P         
        Gene Kingsale  PH-RF

Kotsay HBP in top of the 8th, Klesko GS-HR in t7.

Any of you have a list you'd like to share that would show Cirillo's place? He had 112 career HR, an OPS+ of 102 and only 1600 games. I don't recall his defense being noteworthy either.

Among retired 3B I have

33 Carney Lansford
34 Bill Madlock
35 Jeff Cirillo
36 Ken Caminiti
37 Ken McMullen

Among active 3B Chipper Jones, Scott Rolen, Adrian Beltre, David Wright, Evan Longoria, Eric Chavez, Ryan Zimmerman, and Aramis Ramirez are probably better. So let's say 45th.

For what it's worth Bill James has Cirillo 80th at 3B in his Historical Abstract. I believe those rankings were done in 2000. Cirillo only had one good season left.

EDIT: the noteworth defence is probably the sticking point. B-Ref has him as one of the better 3B of his generation (+85) fangraphs agrees (+100), and UZR has him at 13.3 runs above average per 150 games.

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Among retired 3B I have

33 Carney Lansford
34 Bill Madlock
35 Jeff Cirillo
36 Ken Caminiti
37 Ken McMullen

Among active 3B Chipper Jones, Scott Rolen, Adrian Beltre, David Wright, Evan Longoria, Eric Chavez, Ryan Zimmerman, and Aramis Ramirez are probably better. So let's say 45th.

Thanks guys. I guess that part of it might just be that the recent crop of third basemen have been so good historically that it has thrown off my perception of what the all-time list might look like. Jeff Cirillo was always a neat little player -- I remember picking him up when he went to Colorado and getting a sneaky good fantasy season out of him -- but I never thought of him a historically significant. The horrendous early end in Seattle probably contributed to that too. But I suppose if the defense was good, and he hit around league average for his career. He felt like Joe Randa.

As an AL fan I hardly ever saw Cirillo play, I don't recall thinking of him as a great defensive 3B, but the numbers seem to suggest that. I was pretty shocked to see him ranked so high (I always thought of him as on the borderline of being a starter...good enough to start on a poor team, but would be on the bench on a contender). Cirillo is a good example of the fun of re-evaluating the careers of the non-Hall of Famers. There are some good players in there I'd otherwise forget. I still get the sense that 45th all-time is a bit high...but I wouldn't have guessed top 100 when he was playing.

The dude also hit a ton of doubles - 1996 to 2000 he hit 211 doubles.

In the same years Mannt Ramirez hit 188.
Pujols best run was 2001-2005 where he hit 227.
2008-2012 Migue Cabrera hit 203.
1995-1999 Edgar Martinez hit 220.

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RDF

I remember Cirillo having a pretty good defensive reputation.

On Lofton, he was one of my favorite players, and I'm glad to see him getting some consideration. He was never a 'feels like a HOFer'; although he had some great seasons, he only received MVP votes four times. Lofton's profile is raised by playing on a bunch of winning teams (11 postseasons in 17 seasons)-

Reggie Sanders is one of the nicest people I had the pleasure to meet while working in baseball and it's no suprise to see Pos had a similar experience.