Geez, Reggie. Your house guest was the steroid supplier for the A's. Think about that, Reggie.

Also, he must kill the Queen.

As much as I like Jim Rice, I’m not so sure he’s a Hall of Famer.”

Reggie, how can you expect me to respect your opinion when you don't respect TEH FEAR?

Mickey Rooney was the biggest star in the world from 1939-1940 - two decades!

At least three of Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, and Pedro Martinez weren't the most dominant pitcher of their era.

Yet another good reason why former players shouldn't have a HoF vote.

Reggie Jackson doesn't expect many people to buy him lunch in Cooperstown, I guess.

Well, I agree with him about Rice and Puckett.

What about Billy Martin, Reggie?

And Reggie sucks - he went 0-2 off me. I'm endorsing Doug DeCinces and Jim Gantner for the HOF!

“I didn’t see Kirby Puckett as a Hall of Famer. I didn’t see Gary Carter as a Hall of Famer. I didn’t see Don Sutton as a Hall of Famer. I didn’t see Phil Niekro as a Hall of Famer. As much as I like Jim Rice, I’m not so sure he’s a Hall of Famer.”

I'm sympathetic to his sentiments here.

“No. No, no, no, no. Blyleven wasn’t even the dominant pitcher of his era, it was Jack Morris.”

And then he sorta lost me.

Well.... Gary Carter is one of my most despised players of all time but anybody who doesn't think he belongs in the HoF needs some therapy. Or better drugs, whatever helps.

Rice doesn't belong. I don't think Puckett belongs but he doesn't upset me -- he may have had enough extras to overcome the short career. (The strange thing about Puckett is how easily he got in.) There are cases that can be made against Sutton, Niekro and Blyleven but they're weak cases and they ignore HoF precedent. And the case against Blyleven is "he didn't win enough" but that argument doesn't work for Sutton and Niekro.

Which isn't to say that Reggie's being inconsistent -- he'd probably only put about 75-100 guys in the HoF and be happy as long as Reggie is one of them. I'd guess he doesn't think Billy Williams or any of the closers or Early Wynn or probably any VC selection belongs either. He's probably not thrilled with Larkin or Alomar, might not even think Fergie belongs (Seaver, Carlton, Gibson at least were more "dominant").

If we were drafting all-time rosters, I'd take Niekro and Carter over Blyleven.

And Reggie sucks - he went 0-2 off me.

I laughed. Good job, Bob!

he kinda had me until morris.

or, what YR said.

Seems like bad form to knock other members after they have been admitted to the fraternity. Sutton or Niekro might buzz Reggie with a hot roll at one of the HoF dinners.

Gary Carter strikes me as the odd man out of that group. Does Reggie even make a Hall who's only catchers are Bench, Berra and Gibson?

Gary Carter strikes me as the odd man out of that group.

I find it odd that Reggie's commenting on one guy he never once played a regular season game against (Carter) and two others he only faced when they were deep into their careers. I wonder how closely he even followed the guys.

I also agree with the sentiment expressed by Clapper that it's a bit unseemly to knock the worthiness of guys who have already been admitted.

Reggie Jackson: "Look at meeee, why aren't you all looking at meeeee!"

Gross. A spitty hot roll.

Which isn't to say that Reggie's being inconsistent -- he'd probably only put about 75-100 guys in the HoF and be happy as long as Reggie is one of them.

Reggie wouldn't be happy unless he were three of them.

I laughed. Good job, Bob!

I laughed, and checked bb-ref, as I'd forgotten Bob pitched in the AL. Just remembered him as an '82 Topps future Giant star...

Holy smokes! Hall of Fame inductees combined to bat 222/222/222 against Bob Tufts during his career. Bob, if you had faced only HOFers, you'd be a Hall of Famer!
On the other hand, you faced Reggie Jackson twice and never struck him out. How did that happen?

'82 Topps future Giant star...

What I love about that card is that for over 20 years, I viewed it as Chili Davis's and Bob Brenly's rookie card. But now I see it as Bob Tuft's rookie card.

I faced Reggie twice - groundout to short, groundout to second.

The fielder's choice ground out to short set up a bench clearing incident in Anaheim, as Reggie slid late into second and injured Frank White after a force on a ground out to short by Juan Beniquez.

From Young Ideas and the awful Dick Young: "Then the kid that was Bob Tufts I think his name pointed a finger at me and said something. I don't like any rookie who hasn't done anything talking like that to me. That ticked me off."

What I so eloquently said to tick him off was "F### you All-Star. What the F### was that?". Reggie claimed that I got him so angry he picked up White's hat by mistake, realized it only when he had reached the Angels' dugout - then threw it into the stands.

The better line is vs. Rod Carew - 0-3 with a double play. I played up to my competition, I guess.

Reggie thinks he's inner-circle, doesn't he?

Amusingly, Reggie faced Blyleven more than any other pitcher is his career. His line:

140 PA, .214/.264/.397, 6 HR, 12 RBI, 8 BB, **49 K**

Blyleven struck Reggie out better than 1 in 3 times he faced him. Suck it, Reggie.

FWIW, his line against Morris is pretty similar:

59 PA, .222/.288/.407, 2 HR, 7 RBI, 7 BB, 20 K

Reggie thinks he's inner-circle, doesn't he?

Only Dante places Reggie in an inner circle.

Based on Reggie's performance against them (>50 PA, OPS <.700), the pitchers in Reggie's Hall of Fame should be Gaylord Perry, Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven, Ferguson Jenkins, Jim Kaat, Tommy John, Mike Cuellar, Mickey Lolich, Pat Dobson, Larry Gura, Dan Petry, John Hiller, Rick Waits, Fritz Peterson, and an inner circle (OPS <.500) of Dave Stieb, Steve Busby, and Andy Hassler.

The extent to which Bob has won this thread and in fact the entire site today is simply not measurable.

Doug DeCinces and Jim Gantner have to stand in line behind Cecil Cooper and Tony Pena (1 PA against Bob Tufts, 1 HR).

I guess I watched baseball in a different universe from most other people.

Gary Carter: 3 Gold Gloves (Led in catcher TZ runs 5 yrs running 1979-83, ranks 4th all time career), 2 seasons 30+ HRs and 7 others with 20+ HRs, 4 seasons 100+ RBI, led league in RBI 1984, selected to 11 AS games (AS MVP 1981,1984) , 1.93 Career shares MVP including 2 top 3 finishes (1980, 1986), Total career WAR 66.4, peak seasons 5+ WAR every year from 1977-85 except '81 (strike year - prorated over 162g season is also over 5 WAR), led NL WAR 1982, also durable - led in catchers games played 6 years consecutive 1977-82, career postseason 0.280/0.320/0.466 including 4 HRs, 11R and 21 RBI in 30 games

Carlton Fisk: 1 Gold Glove (never led in TZ runs, ranks 41st all time career for catchers), 1 season 30+ HRs plus 7 others with 20+ HRs, 2 seasons 100+ RBI (never led league), selected to 11 AS games (never MVP), 1.27 Career shares MVP (1 season top 3 1983), Total career WAR 63.7, peak seasons only 3 times over 5 WAR (never led league), led catchers games played twice (1977-78), career postseason 0.259/0.355/0.407 including 2 HRs, 9R and 6 RBI in 14 games

Looking at the above numbers - some traditional stats, some SABR stats - it is quite clear that Gary Carter was a better catcher than Carlton Fisk, both in terms of peak value and career value.

Carlton Fisk was elected to the HOF in 2000 (2nd year of eligibility) - it took Gary Carter 6 tries to get elected in 2003.

How did the BBWAA possibly come to the conclusion that Fisk was the better catcher and more deserving of HOF induction?

Even during the players' active careers it was evident to the BBWAA that Carter was considered more valuable - he did 52% better in MVP voting shares than Fisk.

Reggie, of course, played in the AL as a contemporary of Fisk's and would probably say that he thinks Fisk was an easy HOFer and clearly superior to Carter.

Reggie would be wrong.

The party line seems to be that Gary Carter's so-so season with the Giants and his identically meh season with the Dodgers torpedoed his candidacy with west coast voters. Why that's supposed to be a solid and sensible BBWAA alibi, who knows?

Looking at the above numbers - some traditional stats, some SABR stats - it is quite clear that Gary Carter was a better catcher than Carlton Fisk, both in terms of peak value and career value.

I'll grant that peak Carter tops Fisk, but no, it's not clear that Carter had more career value.

The party line seems to be that Gary Carter's so-so season with the Giants and his identically meh season with the Dodgers torpedoed his candidacy with west coast voters. Why that's supposed to be a solid and sensible BBWAA alibi, who knows?

I can't say I've ever heard that party line. Then again, unlike Reggie, I can't think of a good reason why it took Carter as long as it did.

Bob Tufts - If you got Reggie Jackson to hit two ground balls in two PA, you must have had the breaking pitch working that day. Good job.

In all fairness to Reggie, if your nickname is "Mr. October", you're probably going to overrate Jack Morris. - Brock Hanke

"Never have a star and a stage seemed more meant for each other than Jackson and New York City."

Babe Ruth belches...

Carter and Fisk ranked 4-5 in the all-time catcher Hall of Merit balloting:

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/hall_of_merit/discussion/election_results_hom_voters_think_gibson_bench_berra_and_carter_are_the_fin/

1-2-3 was Gibson-Bench-Berra, pretty emphatically in that order.

3rd-place votes: Carter 2, Fisk 1
4th: Carter 10-2
5th: Carter 7-4
6th: Fisk 5-1
7th: Fisk 3-0
(the latter 2 because 19 of 27 voters had Carter in the top 5, while only 7 had Fisk there)

Fisk placed 5th, but was closer to 10th place than 4th

Reggie finished 8th among RFs as of 2008 electees:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/hall_of_merit/discussion/election_results_starting_in_right_fieldruth_aaron_ott_and_robinson/

Oh sure, Bob never allowed a hit to Reggie, but that's an unfair comparison: Bob went undefeated in his career!

Judging by Bob's splits, catcher Milt May and umpire Paul Pryor deserve Cooperstown plaques!

Gary Carter: 3 Gold Gloves (Led in catcher TZ runs 5 yrs running 1979-83, ranks 4th all time career), 2 seasons 30+ HRs and 7 others with 20+ HRs, 4 seasons 100+ RBI, led league in RBI 1984, selected to 11 AS games (AS MVP 1981,1984) , 1.93 Career shares MVP including 2 top 3 finishes (1980, 1986), Total career WAR 66.4, peak seasons 5+ WAR every year from 1977-85 except '81 (strike year - prorated over 162g season is also over 5 WAR), led NL WAR 1982, also durable - led in catchers games played 6 years consecutive 1977-82, career postseason 0.280/0.320/0.466 including 4 HRs, 11R and 21 RBI in 30 games

Carlton Fisk: 1 Gold Glove (never led in TZ runs, ranks 41st all time career for catchers), 1 season 30+ HRs plus 7 others with 20+ HRs, 2 seasons 100+ RBI (never led league), selected to 11 AS games (never MVP), 1.27 Career shares MVP (1 season top 3 1983), Total career WAR 63.7, peak seasons only 3 times over 5 WAR (never led league), led catchers games played twice (1977-78), career postseason 0.259/0.355/0.407 including 2 HRs, 9R and 6 RBI in 14 games

Shrug. Fisk was a contemporary who played longer AND had better rate stats. 117 OPS for Fisk to 115 for Carter in 200 more games? Also, if Carter was so durable, how come he had a shorter career? They both played the same number of All Star game, they both finished in the top 10 MVP the same number of times. Looking at the stats I can't see that Carter was notably better in any phase of the game. The one thing you can say about Carter is that his best seasons were more bunched than Fisk's were. But his best years weren't any better than Fisk's, they were just bunched. I'm not really sure if there's any value to bunching a player's best seasons; there are too many other variables in what makes a good team. I don't usually give extra credit for peak value.

Seems like bad form to knock other members after they have been admitted to the fraternity.

This IS Reggie Jackson we're talking about here. His middle name may as well be "Bad Form".

I actually thought he had mellowed out somewhat in his old age.
I was wrong...

Cool story, Bob.

During the tail ends of their careers both Sutton and Niekro's HOF chances were considered with open skepticism by baseball reporters who considered their 300 wins the result of sticking around the game too long for that specific goal (the same charge was leveled at Gaylord Perry who bounced around to half-a-dozen teams after he turned 40). I don't think Reggie was saying anything that wasn't widely thought at the times those players were actually playing.

During the tail ends of their careers both Sutton and Niekro's HOF chances were considered with open skepticism by baseball reporters who considered their 300 wins the result of sticking around the game too long for that specific goal

As to Phil, sounds like revisionist history to me. Knucksie got win 300 in a year he went 16-12, 1 year after making the all star game and 2 years after winning a gold glove. Knuckleballers were expected to last forever. His last two years were less than stellar, but he won 300 in pinstripes and I don't recall anyone talking about how he should have retired because he was washed up. And yes, he was not a first ballot guy, but he debuted at 65%, so it was obvious he was heading in.

Now, Sutton did get the rap for being an "accumulator".

[Carter's] best years weren't any better than Fisk's

Carter, then, Fisk, best years by BBWAR;

8.3, 7.2, 6.8, 6.6, 6.2, 5.8, 5.6, 5.2
7.0, 6.7, 5.6, 4.7, 3.9, 3.6, 3.6, 3.1


They were better, and they were more numerous.

Fisk was a contemporary who played longer AND had better rate stats. 117 OPS for Fisk to 115 for Carter in 200 more games?

Over 150 of that was as a DH.

Carter, then, Fisk, best years by BBWAR;

8.3, 7.2, 6.8, 6.6, 6.2, 5.8, 5.6, 5.2
7.0, 6.7, 5.6, 4.7, 3.9, 3.6, 3.6, 3.1

Srul - I'm guessing Jay Z doesn't buy the WAR rankings, which clearly rank Carter over Fisk - and, since most of Carter's advantage there is in defense, I would guess that Jay Z therefore doesn't buy the idea that Carter was significantly better than Fisk defensively.

I know a lot of people question defensive metrics out in the field (is something being biased by groundball or flyball pitchers, righties/lefties, etc.) but I'm genuinely curious what basis anyone would have to conclude that Fisk was a better defensive catcher than Carter. Is it catcher's ERA or something like that?

I know a lot of people question defensive metrics out in the field (is something being biased by groundball or flyball pitchers, righties/lefties, etc.) but I'm genuinely curious what basis anyone would have to conclude that Fisk was a better defensive catcher than Carter.

It's more that dWAR for catchers doesn't messure very much.

Over 150 of that was as a DH.

No. Fisk has 170 more games at C, 143 more starts at C. And Fisk didn't hang on to be a DH -- 91 (of 115) starts at C at age 43; 64 (of 65) starts at C ages 44-45.

#32 You can make a case that Carter has the best peak of any catcher. It requires a very specific way of looking at things (among other things totally ignoring any value that guys like Bench or Berra put up at other positions)

Still, he handled an extremely heavy load, hit pretty well and was the best defensive catcher in the game in his prime. He can at minimum be sensibly compared to any major league catcher in terms of peak/prime. How you handle his extra workload at catcher will determine exactly how you rank him.

But he was not very good outside of his prime. His arm went south and he didn't hit all that well. Personally I don't see that mattering at all to his HOF case. The pure career voters will see matters differently. (I'm basically an extended prime voter. Basically value at a star level of productivity)

And then you have to take the fact that his prime was in a low offensive context -- so his raw stats don't look all that impressive compared to some of the other guys -- and was in Montreal (so that he didn't get as much attention. The Gary Carter a lot of people remember is the guy who played for the Mets and that's really not close to a HOFer)

And an awful lot of people simply couldn't stand him. Though I'm not sure Reggie is the guy to bring up that issue.

Hilariously, this was in the "Where are they now?" issue of SI. What the? How do you not know where the #### Reggie's been?

Anybody remember that SI article after the OJ murder where Tony Dungy--I think--said he always thought Reggie would be the athlete to kill his girlfriend?