BBTF.org/m/hall_of_fame : Report: Scott Rolen is leaning towards retirement

Thursday, June 13, 2013

Posnanski: Andy Pettitte and the Van Doren Gene

(joeposnanski.blogspot.com)

posted 6 days ago by Repoz to hall of fame, history, media, yankees | 161 comment(s)

600* BBWAA writers voted, but no one saw a thing.

* give or take

This, I think, was what made the Bert Blyleven-Jack Morris Hall of Fame discussion so interesting. The statistics made it abundantly clear that Blyleven was not just a better pitcher than Morris but light years better. But Blyleven just doesn’t have the Van Doren Gene … and Morris does. And so the debate over which pitcher was better raged on; in some quarters it rages on still. People don’t just see Morris as a Hall of ...

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1. charityslave is thinking about baseball posted on October 12, 2012 at 12:54 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Without the emergence of Frazier, the Reds may have tried to bring him back on a one year deal. But I don't think they'll make an offer, even as a backup.

2. DL from MN posted on October 12, 2012 at 12:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think he's going to be Hall of Merit.

3. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:10 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'm expecting HOM too. But I'm often surprised how bad players turn out to be that I thought were awesome, and vice versa. OK not "bad" exactly, but not HOM material. For example Lou Brock "seemed" better than Jake Beckley but it turned out not to be so.

4. AROM posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:16 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Right on the border. Better than Ken Boyer, not as good as Ron Santo.

5. SoSH U at work posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:18 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Because Rolen added so little to his stats after his first nine full seasons, he probably won’t sniff Cooperstown. It doesn’t help that he wasn’t properly rated when he was at his best.

I fear he's destined to become this generation's Santo.* Legitimately great glove at third, excellent bat. He should be an easy Hall of Fame choice, but he's probably gotta hope for a future functioning Vet's committee to have a chance.

* BBRef WAR really sees it this way.

6. DL from MN posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:29 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

He's not going to fare well being compared to Chipper Jones on the same first ballot. Chipper got a nice send-off. Rolen kind of went out with a whimper.

7. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:35 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Phillies fans will probably revel in Rolen's BBRef WAR -- 66.6.

Maybe it was better off that Rolen turned down the Phils megaoffer back in 2002 or whenever it was. Things would have gotten even uglier.

8. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:38 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I predict that Scott Rolen gets 7 Hall of Fame votes.

9. Anonymous Observer posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:45 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

He wasn't entirely right in the 2006 playoffs, but he did just enough to help the Cardinals win the World Series. For that, he'll have my eternal thanks.

And he'd be on my Hall of Fame ballot.

10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:51 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?

11. hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:51 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Scott's been on a major slope down since about August of '10. Shoulder/back issues were just too much.

The one thing that impressed me during the 1-1.5 seasons I got to see a healthy Rolen, was how good of a baserunner he was for his size. Always seemed to get good reads on balls and take the extra base. You could just tell he was an amazing athlete.

12. BDC

posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:52 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Rolen is so high on the relevant third-baseman lists that I thought I'd do a comps list that includes both 3B and all outfielders, centered on him in terms of PAs and OPS+, with some speed-related totals, and ranked by WAR Fielding Runs:

Player           Rfield   PA OPS+  3B  SB       Pos
Adrian Beltre       185 8697  112  30 115    *5/D64
Scott Rolen         172 8518  122  43 118        *5
Robin Ventura       154 8271  114  14  24  *53/D641
Ichiro Suzuki        96 8723  113  80 452    *98/D7
Ken Boyer            74 8272  116  68 105    *58/36
George Burns         70 8251  114 108 383    *798/5
Carlos Beltran       69 8349  122  74 306    *89/D7
Sal Bando            37 8287  119  38  75 *5/D36417
Ron Cey              19 8344  121  21  24     *5/D3
Paul ONeill           8 8329  120  21 141  *9/73D81
Stan Hack             2 8508  119  81 165      *5/3
Heinie Manush        -1 8419  121 160 113    *789/3
Carlos Lee          -18 8787  113  19 125     *73/D
Amos Otis           -35 8247  115  66 341   *8/79D5
Ken Singleton       -59 8559  132  25  21    *9D7/8
Toby Harrah         -96 8767  114  40 238   *564/D9
Bobby Bonilla      -121 8257  124  61  45  5973/D81 

It gives one a sense of what kind of outfielder has a batting career similar to these outstanding 3B. My gosh, there doesn't seem to be a HOFer in the bunch, though Boyer & Hack IIRC are in the Hall of Merit, and there might be others I've forgotten. No wait, Heinie Manush is in the Hall of Fame, who knows why.

The 3B on that list tend to be elite players, though it confirms AROM's point that they're also not the inner circle at 3B, not the Bakers and Boggses and Bretts of the position.

13. Don't want the truth; just wanna see some dingers posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:53 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

JD Drew
Canseco

14. JJ1986 posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Colby Rasmus?

15. hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Without the emergence of Frazier, the Reds may have tried to bring him back on a one year deal. But I don't think they'll make an offer, even as a backup.

I'm not opposed to the Reds making an offer for a 3b, even with Frazier. It's likely Ludwick will decline the $5M mutual option and want at least a 2 year deal. Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.

16. Sweatpants posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:57 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?

Todd Cruz, Francisco Barrios, Aurelio Rodriguez, and Lynn McGlothen?

Edit: Didn't know that Baker ever played for La Russa.

17. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:57 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'm hard pressed to determine whether Schmidt or Rolen was the better fielder, having seen all of Schmidt's career and much of Rolen's (didn't see much when I lived in KC when Rolen started). I know Beltre is really good but haven't see that much of him -- is he really better than Rolen? Wow.

18. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:58 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

Rolen
Canseco
Rasmus
Ozzie

19. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:00 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?

Ozzie Guillen, Dusty Baker, Reggie Jackson, and Wayne Nordhagen?

20. BDC

posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:01 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I've seen a lot of Schmidt and Beltre, much less of Rolen. Schmidt and Beltre are hard for me to compare, because I saw Schmidt play almost exclusively on artificial turf, which meant a very different style. Beltre reminds me a bit of a great hockey goalie; he's a really supple guy, lightning-quick. Schmidt was fast straight ahead as well as quick (Beltre's not fast), and so he was outstanding at charging the ball, and Schmidt had a better arm than Beltre. I don't know where Rolen fits in, so my remarks are somewhat oblique, not to say pointless :)

21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:04 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Rolen
Canseco
Rasmus
Ozzie

The answer was never revealed, but my best guess was Rasmus, Ozzie and Rolen, and I don't know for the fourth. Did TLR not get along with Canseco or are you saying that just because of his later shenanigans and roid accusations?

22. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:07 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Ozzie Guillen, Ozzie Smith, Ozzie Canseco, and Tom Pagnozzi?

23. Tom Nawrocki posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:10 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

The answer was never revealed, but my best guess was Rasmus, Ozzie and Rolen, and I don't know for the fourth.

Darryl Kile.

24. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:13 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Jimmy Journell, Lorenzo Gray, Matt Sinatro, and Roger Smithberg?

25. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:15 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Schmidt was fast straight ahead as well as quick

Just saw an old clip of ABC's Battle of the Superstars (or whatever that was called). It was the 100-yard dash final (won by Lynn Swann, with gargantuan shotputter Brian Oldfield coming close for second) and Dave Kingman was the lone baseball representative to make the race. The commentators mentioned that he'd defeated Schmidt to make the final.

26. Jim Wisinski

posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:15 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

23: I laughed

27. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:15 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.

You might want to take a look at the 3B options before you embark on that plan. We've been obsessing in Philly all year no one has a very good solution.

28. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:18 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.

If the price is right Kevin Youkilis would be a great fit. He's from Cincinnati, he's a talented hitter and as a righty fits nicely between Votto and Bruce (or around them in some capacity) and he's probably going to be banged up enough that Frazier would get ample at bats. I love Youk so I'm biased, I think he's a good fit everywhere.

29. hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:18 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

You might want to take a look at the 3B options before you embark on that plan. We've been obsessing in Philly all year no one has a very good solution.

Yeah I have not looked at the options. The only one I know is a FA off the top of my head is Youk. Youk is a hometown guy and all, but I'm pretty sure the Reds can get a better option in LF and keep Frazier at 3b.

30. Gern Blanston posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:24 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

23: I laughed

Yeah, so'd I. See you in hell.

EDIT: Perhaps "Josh Hancock" would've been slightly less tasteless...

31. Flounder has been eaten by a grue. posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:27 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Maybe Ron Gant? IIRC, he pretty much called TLR a racist after he left St. Louis.

32. GuyM posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:33 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

The answer was never revealed, but my best guess was Rasmus, Ozzie and Rolen, and I don't know for the fourth.

Brian Jordan?

33. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:36 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Randy Ready, Larry Luebbers, Delino DeShields, and Lerrin LaGrow?

34. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:36 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'd be stunned if Canseco wasn't on the list. TLR strikes me as one of those guys who views "ratting out" someone as the lowest of the low.

35. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:37 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

hokie, Youk's about it. Big risk there, I think, as the bidding might be energetic and he gets a bigger, longer contract that we expect. For a team that has Frazier in the wings, it's a better risk than some team like Philly who has Kevin Frandsen, Freddie Galvis or excretable MiniMart as backups.

36. just plain joe posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:38 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Brian Jordan?

Did Jordan and TLR not get along? I'm asking because Jordan seemed well thought of when he played for the Cardinals. I've seen him on several Cardinals telecasts over the years and the impression you get is that Jordan enjoyed playing in St. Louis.

37. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:45 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

33: Is TRL anti-alliteration?

38. GuyM posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:46 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Jordan and TLR clashed at one point. But a quick Google search turns up an article suggesting they are on good terms today. So I guess not.....

Another candidate: Ron Gant, who once said TLR had trouble getting along with Black players.

39. hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

hokie, Youk's about it. Big risk there, I think, as the bidding might be energetic and he gets a bigger, longer contract that we expect. For a team that has Frazier in the wings, it's a better risk than some team like Philly who has Kevin Frandsen, Freddie Galvis or excretable MiniMart as backups.

Yeah. The Reds don't necessarily need a 3b. I was just trying to think outside the box of trying to upgrade the offense. I'm confident Frazier can handle the full time job and produce at the plate and in the field nicely.

As much of a risk as Youk is, I consider giving Ludwick 2+ years just as equal of a risk. Plus Youk at 3b would presumably require Frazier playing LF, which is not his "natural" position.

40. Scott Ross posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:56 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Setting aside whether he makes it or not, doesn't Rolen at least deserve to make the HoF? He's 8th all-time among 3B in WAR, and 5th in WAR/PA--if a guy is this clearly among the top 10 at his position, don't you punch his ticket?

41. phredbird

posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:04 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?

i say rolen, lankford, drew and rasmus.

i believe ozzie won't talk to him.

42. BDC

posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:06 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

One thing to dig about Rolen (we had a trivia question on this, this summer) is the *5 standing alone in his B-Ref position column. Never played an inning anywhere else, and despite interleague and some time in the AL, never even DH'd. Including his ample postseason play, too.

43. Don't want the truth; just wanna see some dingers posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:09 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

[42] Wow, that's pretty cool! I thought I remembered him playing SS a couple of times. Looking back, I must be thinking of the guy he was traded for, Troy Glaus.

44. hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:16 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

[42] Wow, that's pretty cool! I thought I remembered him playing SS a couple of times. Looking back, I must be thinking of the guy he was traded for, Troy Glaus.

Yeah I seem to remember him having a SS rating one year in Strat-o-Matic, but I must be thinking of Beltre or Glaus.

45. Harveys Wallbangers

posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:27 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

i hate being right about rolen's 2010. he so radically changed his approach to sit on the inside corner i figured it was scott realizing the just could not handle the outside half any longer

pitchers adjusted and then he got hurt and then he was done.

sigh......

46. silhouetted by the sea posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:30 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

(42) Is that the record for most career games while only playing one position? I looked up most games played a 3rd base and everyone above Rolen played at least a few games at other positions.

47. JJ1986 posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:33 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Luis Aparicio has 2599 games - all at shortstop.

48. Harveys Wallbangers

posted on October 12, 2012 at 04:01 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

i apologize for the first sentence. while accurate i hate the way that sounds. i tried to delete but the edit function just spooled and nothing happened

again, apologies for that sentence. it reads awful

49. Walks Clog Up the Bases posted on October 12, 2012 at 04:22 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Also laughed at 23. Also going to Hell.

50. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on October 12, 2012 at 04:23 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Maybe Ron Gant? IIRC, he pretty much called TLR a racist after he left St. Louis.

Or Ray Lankford, who IIRC TLR denigrated after he was gone, saying something about how Lankford whiffed all the time.

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Thursday, June 13, 2013

Posnanski: Andy Pettitte and the Van Doren Gene

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