So, if I'm reading this right, Tony was probably undercounting.

My gosh, there doesn't seem to be a HOFer in the bunch

I hope Beltran gets some consideration, but the missed time at 23, 32 and 33 combined with being one of those players who's really good at a LOT of things rather than really great at one or two may cost him.

If this is the end, Rolen will still eventually get into the Hall, but he'll probably be in the same boat as Edmonds for a long time. Too bad there won't be any sportswriters crowing about how much teams feared Rolen's defense.

i say rolen, lankford, drew and rasmus.

i believe ozzie won't talk to him.

Drew might be the most boring, dull human being who ever pulled up a stirrup. What could Drew have possibly done to merit Don Tony's dreaded silent treatment? And Lankford came back for that final hurrah with the Cards. I don't think he and Tony left things on bad terms.

edit:

Or Ray Lankford, who IIRC TLR denigrated after he was gone, saying something about how Lankford whiffed all the time.

The whiff, whiff, whiff comment was WRT Gant. He made some general comment about striking out when they traded Lankford for Woody Williams (that turned out pretty well), but then Tony brought him back as a bench player a couple of years later.

Also laughed at 23. Also going to Hell.

Me also.

So, if I'm reading this right, Tony was probably undercounting.

I think the number of players who wouldn't speak to Tony is probably more than the numbers of players Tony won't speak to.

Maybe Ron Gant? IIRC, he pretty much called TLR a racist after he left St. Louis.

Tony did famously love Dave Stewart though. Stew appeared at Tony's number retirement ceremony in St Louis last year. Rickey Henderson was not there.

Darryl Kile.

Primey and an eternity of fire and brimstone.

He wasn't entirely right in the 2006 playoffs, but he did just enough to help the Cardinals win the World Series. For that, he'll have my eternal thanks.

I still believe he should have been the 2006 WS MVP. .421/.476/.737 (1.213 OPS), key home run off of Verlander in game one, great baserunning (forcing an Inge error later that game) etc. When you add in the injury back story (he looked like toast in the NLDS) and the fight with TLR, it makes it all the more relevant.

David Eckstein won the MVP with a .364/.391/.500 (.891 OPS), and a lot of his performance was luck (one of his "doubles" was a clearly misplayed fly ball to CF, etc).

Anyway, I don't remember the details, but Kerry Robinson figured fairly negatively in Bissinger's book about TLR. He might be one of the four.

Oh, here's an interesting list. I had forgotten about Steve Kline.

The whiff, whiff, whiff comment was WRT Gant. He made some general comment about striking out when they traded Lankford for Woody Williams (that turned out pretty well), but then Tony brought him back as a bench player a couple of years later.

Ah yes, that's right.

Ozzie Smith did not deal well with being benched for Royce Clayton, and there has been bad blood between him and TLR ever since. My other guesses would be Colby Rasmus and Rick Ankiel. I don't know anything about TLR's relationship with his various players on the As.

Brian Jordan was wildly overrated by STL fans because he had obvious tools. He could run and throw and had power. That he took few walks and had other weaknesses in his game were things that are not visible to the average fan. Willie McGee is the same. STL fans only remember the .300 batting averages and the occasional great postseason play. That he didn't walk, struck out a lot, was a lousy base stealer for someone with his speed, had little power and an ineffective arm were things that are not so visible. - Brock Hanke

Brock: Ankiel was one of Tony's most beloved and sheltered players. The P-D is full of old stories in which Tony praises Ankiel endlessly for his courage, etc. And BJ was one of the greatest defensive players I've ever seen when he was with the Cards. He was toolsy, yes, but he was wonderful all-around, regularly registering 5 WAR with his 98 season coming in at 6.8 by BBR WAR.

Always enjoy your longer posts about the halcyon days of the club, btw.

I didn't laugh @ 23 because he beat me to it. I was going to ask if there were 3 others besides Kile.

...afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

That's a good one.

I think he tried to reach out to Ozzie, so it may not be him.
Lankford was certainly on the list, but think they made up.
Rolen I think the same - they made peace.
Gant - Don't think they talk
Canseco - Probably on the list.
Probably a White Sox player in there somewhere - he always had a least one player per team he didn't talk to.
Rasmus - Definitely.

Since everyone likes the Darryl Kile reference in #23 so much, we should give some credit to Sweatpants who listed FOUR dead ex-LaRussa players way back in post #16.

Since everyone likes the Darryl Kile reference in #23 so much, we should give some credit to Sweatpants who listed FOUR dead ex-LaRussa players way back in post #16.

Definitely - I didn't remember McGlothen had played for the White Sox.

Rolen and Beltran seem like excellent "HOF" comps to me. Good(great) runners, good(great) defense, good not great hitters for their position, injury histories (Rolen more than Beltran) and now bouncing around a bit. Rolen will be an interesting case to see whether the voters are starting to shift to a more "sabermetric" view of these matters. He does have the advantage of 8 GG to go with the fab fancy defensive numbers (whereas Beltre doesn't) so no voter is going to completely ignore Rolen's defense.

I think he's going to be Hall of Merit.

Almost definitely. The only third basemen with more than 60 WAR who haven't made the Hall of Merit are Bando (60.6) and Bell (60.8) and Rolen easily beats both of them.

Ruben Sierra?

Anyway, I don't remember the details, but Kerry Robinson figured fairly negatively in Bissinger's book about TLR.

Didn't Robinson get a job as a Cardinals scout before TLR left? I assume that doesn't happen without at least some input from TLR.

TLR probably won't talk to Ozzie, he tried to patch things up, left him an open invitation to spring training as a coach every year, and Ozzie went on the offensive and said something about TLR, and TLR then revoked the invitation.

I wouldn't be surprised if Canseco is on the list, TLR is really ticked off about Canseco. Not the ratting out part, but the 'glee' in which Canseco seems to enjoy doing the ratting.

TLR has tried to make amends with Rolen and used to get along really well with him, I don't think that riff is permanent. As mentioned TLR loves Ankiel, no way is he on the list. Someone mentioned Baker, and the evidence that TLR is playing psychopathic games with his managerial style, is that him and Baker are actually pretty good friends. As recently as last season they were seen eating dinner together, so he's not on that list. I don't think Drew is on that list either, Drew doesn't have the personality to engineer that much emotion. Gant accused TLR of racism, so that is a good point in his being on the list. Jordan admitted to a riff with TLR, while defending TLR from Gant's comment, I think Jordan is the type of guy that can realize that it's a competitive environment, away from the field, and give your emotions time to heal, and things are different. Maybe it's Tino, Tino's little baby ass attitude when he left put a good size riff(I guess he couldn't handle the St Louis press) Kerry Robinson figured in the Bissinger book, but that was because he thought he should be starting, I think once he realized it wasn't TLR that was keeping him from an everyday job, that he was able to put it behind him.

I would put Rasmus as the third. I wouldn't be surprised if the fourth is someone we don't know anything about. Heck it might be Steve Kline, I'm not sure TLR ever really forgave him for the flicking off thing.

I hope Rolen doesn't retire, I think that if he finds a good place to play 3-5 days a week, that he can have a valuable season. His body cannot handle the rigors of playing everyday, but when he gets rest, he seems to be almost reborn.

Having slept on it, it's not as good a joke as first thought. One can speak to the dead. Maybe they don't answer, but, you can speak to them still.

I also saw all or most of Schmidt's and Rolen's time in Philadelphia. I'm confident that Rolen had the stronger arm. Probably a litle more range to his left, too... which makes sense since he's 6'4 and quick. Both were great at coming in on bunts and choppers, and at going to their right.

I'm confident that Rolen had the stronger arm.

Memory is faulty and all that, but I'm thinking the arm strengths might be equivalent but Rolen had a quicker release. I remember Schmidt having a longish arm action, at least on non-charge plays.

Maybe it's Tino, Tino's little baby ass attitude when he left put a good size riff

tino is one of the four ex-cardinal players i'm never speaking to.