It's no metropolis, but it's not a bumblefuck either.

Are you saying it's bigger than Royston, GA?

No, but down in Deliverance Land the class of inbreeds is arguably superior.

You shouldn't time your discussions for right after pudding. They all need their naps after pudding time.

Naps come naturally after reading these Hall of Fame discussions.

Yeah, I think that kind of system is one where I could be OK if it results in Jack Morris or Roger Maris (if such an idea is applied to players that only a veteran's committee can consider) getting in. There would be a stark line between what the Hall of Fame is and what the Hall of Merit is in that case.

There is obviously a difference now. I think the reason it bothers me is that the HOF goes through a pretense of limiting the gatekeepers to experts, but then so many of them display a complete lack of understanding of the game, or ability for critical thinking. And you wind up with a process that concludes Jim Rice was better than Dwight Evans, or that Jack Morris was better than Orel Hershiser or Kevin Brown.

This is the heart of the current, on-going, generational conflict. In the past, the Hall of Fame was the only game in town, and the BBWAA were the gatekeepers of both "fame" and "merit." As with any political body that has some modicum of power, they want to hold onto the thing which makes them special and powerful. A new generation of baseball writer and fan has decided that the BBWAA and the existing HOF don't do a very good job of judging merit and have pushed back hard against them in various ways, even creating a Hall of Merit itself, outside of the HOF rubric entirely. But the HOM has classic little brother envy and doesn't like that the HOF still gets all of the press and coverage on ESPN. They want in on that game as well. Never has the phrase "the politics of glory" been so apt.

I think that's a very good idea. You could probably even tour the exhibit around to every major league city during the year. Anyone who went to see it would get a vote. It would do a lot more to increase knowledge and appreciation of both baseball and the Hall of Fame than polling sportswriters or locking a bunch of historians up in a room somewhere to come to scientifically correct conclusions, and if it ended up with Jack Morris in and Roger Clemens out, so what?

This would be super awesome and I would be hugely excited about when it came to my town. I'd probably take a vacation day for it.

fan has decided that the BBWAA and the existing HOF don't do a very good job of judging merit

If you're going to split them up into two entities, I don't think the existing HOF judges anything - they convey the merit that the BBWAA judges. I do wonder of the relationship there, personally. Has there ever been any press? Now's the time, really.


But the HOM has classic little brother envy and doesn't like that the HOF still gets all of the press and coverage on ESPN

Considering the promotional effort the HOM has put up, and how vocal they are about their own place on the scale, I can't imagine how you'd think this was true.

How many people even know what the Hall of Merit is? A few hundred? Maybe into the thousands? It's a fun project and I'm glad it exists, but it is not a viable alternative to the Hall of Fame. No rational person would be envious of the HOF for getting all the media attention because there is no reason to think such levels of media attention could possibly be focused on the Hall of Merit.

It would do a lot more to increase knowledge and appreciation of both baseball and the Hall of Fame than polling sportswriters or locking a bunch of historians up in a room somewhere to come to scientifically correct conclusions, and if it ended up with Jack Morris in and Roger Clemens out, so what?

I don't really know how to respond to this.

"So what" in the sense that the world would keep revolving on its axis? Acknowledged.
"So what" in the sense that anyone who knew a decent amount about baseball would realize that the Hall of Fame didn't at all reflect who the best players were? That'd be really bad for the Hall of Fame!

(I'm not talking about just Morris in/Clemens out, of course -- that by itself wouldn't doom the entire enterprise -- but rather about the terrible voting across the board that I would expect.)

When it comes to questions of expertise (rather than electing their own representatives), people are capable of simultaneously casting their own vote when asked, while acknowledging that the vote of someone more knowledgeable is probably a better guideline. If you put together a well-publicized committee of logically qualified experts to determine who the greatest American was, that would be more respected than the "Greatest American" poll I linked in the intro. The People's Choice Awards are not more respected than the Oscars. (Even though the Oscars, much like a certain other honor, have a problematic voting pool and have made a lot of bad choices...)

How many people even know what the Hall of Merit is? A few hundred? Maybe into the thousands? It's a fun project and I'm glad it exists, but it is not a viable alternative to the Hall of Fame. No rational person would be envious of the HOF for getting all the media attention because there is no reason to think such levels of media attention could possibly be focused on the Hall of Merit.

Okay, if I concede that the HOM has been less 'envious' and more 'just secondary,' I'd still maintain that a lot of the time and energy the stat crowd puts into complaining that old farts love them some Jack Morris would be better spent promoting the HOM, to the point of putting together something outside of the BBTF umbrella, and maybe one day even building a building or two.

Or just wait for the old guard to die out slowly and adjust the HOF to your standards when you're the old guard who refuses to believe that a kid with a bio-mechanical knee joint should be considered for the HOF with fully human players.

Okay, if I concede that the HOM has been less 'envious' and more 'just secondary,' I'd still maintain that a lot of the time and energy the stat crowd puts into complaining that old farts love them some Jack Morris would be better spent promoting the HOM, to the point of putting together something outside of the BBTF umbrella, and maybe one day even building a building or two.

Nah, that'd take too much work, and it's more fun making fun of Murray Chass and Joe Morgan.

I mean so what. I don't see how it could possibly hurt the Hall of Fame's credibility with baseball fans to reflect what actual baseball fans want it to be through the self correcting mechanism of mass voting. If baseball fans wanted it to be the Hall of WAR, it would be. If they wanted it to be the Hall of Clutch, it would be. It wouldn't make any difference to me; I don't look to the Hall of Fame to validate my opinions on who was a great ballplayer, and like the few other thousand people who really care about such things, I wouldn't even if it were dedicated to conveying some sort of sober, scientific consensus arrived at solemnly by serious men. I would, though, be interested in seeing it reflect broad public opinions on who was special, memorable, great and worthy of honoring.

Nah, that'd take too much work, and it's more fun making fun of Murray Chass and Joe Morgan

I never have understood the thrill of outsmarting the slow kids.

In that sense, I think of the Baseball HOF a bit like I think of the World's Largest Ball of Twine, or Wall Drug.

Three places that are on my personal bucket list :)

-- MWE

I don't see how it could possibly hurt the Hall of Fame's credibility with baseball fans to reflect what actual baseball fans want it to be through the self correcting mechanism of mass voting.

Serious question: How do we know it isn't?

-- MWE

I would, though, be interested in seeing it reflect broad public opinions on who was special, memorable, great and worthy of honoring.

The problem I have with this is that we already have this reflection, in massive quantity and moreso now and in the future than any time prior. I don't want the HOF to be that. I want it to be more discerning than public opinion, not equalling public opinion.

Add those two words, and then tell it to your friends here who seem to confuse the two institutions, in spite of 77 years' worth of countering experience.

Once more: nobody confuses the two. One is the one voted by smart people and one the one voted by dumb people. It's you who keeps trying to turn the HOM into an "alternative" HOF instead of a smarter one.

and maybe one day even building a building or two.

That would require venturing forth from mother's basement. I'll pass.

I always like it when Andy refers to the HOF and the HOM as "the two institutions", as if one is the Library of Congress and the other is the Smithsonian or something. The HOF is an institution; the HOM is a website based on the interests of a few hundred (max) hardcore baseball fans. It is, as noted, a "fun project"--but that's all it is.

There may be some teenage Primate lurking who is also a great baseball player, and he may indeed one day care about about whether he makes the HOM in 2042 and go national with that wish, and there may someday be an Internet Baseball HOF, that offers pay-as-you-go virtual tours and nationally-covered Skype-ish induction ceremonies. But for now, the HOM is a website.

63: It probably is in the sense that I doubt the public would vote very differently than sportswriters. It almost certainly isn't in the sense that if you were designing a voting system from scratch you wouldn't build one designed to encourage tedious ideological sparring among sportswriters rather than appreciation of ballplayers.

I always like it when Andy refers to the HOF and the HOM as "the two institutions", as if one is the Library of Congress and the other is the Smithsonian or something. The HOF is an institution; the HOM is a website based on the interests of a few hundred (max) hardcore baseball fans. It is, as noted, a "fun project"--but that's all it is.

Well, Sam has a brain and David has a brain. That doesn't mean that their brains are comparable in size or reasoning ability, but I think we'd all agree that Sam and David are both institutions.

I think we'd all agree that Sam and David are both institutions.

Or maybe that they should be *in* institutions, along with the rest of us :)

-- MWE

Or maybe that they should be *in* institutions, along with the rest of us :)

Having Wall Drug on your bucket list does seem somewhat certifiable.

I always like it when Andy refers to the HOF and the HOM as "the two institutions", as if one is the Library of Congress and the other is the Smithsonian or something.

Come on, Robin, don't make fun of the slow kid. He'll figure it out some day.

Yes, Andy and the HoM is always a hoot.

But we will never compete with the HoM as a museum. What we really need is the Hall of Merit Baseball Family Fun Park and Wall of Fame featuring the Saberhagen roller coaster, the Dale Murphy Cliff Dive and the Moises Alou water slide.