Hall of Fame, Not Hall of Merit:
SP’s
Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Dizzy Dean
Lefty Gomez
Jesse Haines
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Herb Pennock
Hilton Smith
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

RP’s
Bruce Sutter

C’s
Rick Ferrell
Ernie Lombardi
Ray Schalk

1B’s
Jim Bottomley
Orlando Cepeda
Frank Chance
George Kelly
Tony Perez
Ben Taylor

2B’s
Johnny Evers
Tony Lazzeri
Bill Mazeroski
Red Schoendienst

3B’s
Ray Dandridge
Judy Johnson
George Kell
Fred Lindstrom
Pie Traynor

SS’s
Luis Aparicio
Dave Bancroft
Travis Jackson
Rabbit Maranville
Phil Rizzuto
Joe Tinker

LF’s
Lou Brock
Chick Hafey
Heinie Manush
Jim Rice

CF’s
Earle Combs
Hugh Duffy
Kirby Puckett
Lloyd Waner
Hack Wilson

RF’s
Kiki Cuyler
Harry Hooper
Chuck Klein
Tommy McCarthy
Sam Rice
Ross Youngs

SP’s
Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Dizzy Dean
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Jesse Haines
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Herb Pennock
Hilton Smith
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

Grimes should be included here.

Dan G/52 - nice catch. Grimes is one of the finer Hall of Fame selections that has fallen short of the Hall of Merit.

Lassus/7 what is it that you keep trying to get at?

well, I think Bill James had a book where for some reason he just went "pass" when it came to the Bagwell description. That would be a weak "easter egg" but it's possible..

Speaking Grimes, what makes Redding better than him as a candidate? I'm not seeing it. I do like Grimes, and he's probably in my second 15, give or take. But I don't see what makes Redding a better candidate.

Looking over the list of HOF not HOM posted in #51, a realization has hit me: There are few players that I have a problem with/think should not be in the HOF. Go figure.

I think it would be a fun exercise to rank the HoF not HoM to determine which induction mistakes are the worst. It would only take 3 elections (P, SS/2B/3B/C, 1B/OF) and we could do it while we are firming up the MMP project (or ignoring the MMP project, either way). It might also solidify support for the best HoF not HoM players.

RK LY Player PTS Bal
4 n/e Rafael Palmeiro 472 29
27 33 Ben Taylor 79 8

These players aren't that different but somehow there are 23 places, 21 ballots and 400 points separating them.

If you are on those lists, I'm really hoping you vote next year, where the election is wide open. Has the forgone conclusion of the last two elections maybe been a reason for losing a few of you?

Joe, I think those reasons are better addressed in #31.


Lassus/7 what is it that you keep trying to get at?

In a sadly increasingly petulant manner (see username), I'm simply trying to highlight that the lack of a dedicated HOM website strikes me (admittedly, an outsider) as an issue that isn't getting enough priority. I think the fact that there wasn't any response at all to Mark Donelson's post shows this.

I think Newk is a great "discovery" for the Hall of Merit, demonstrating this body's fuller understanding of baseball's integration era.

Thanks.

Has the forgone conclusion of the last two elections maybe been a reason for losing a few of you?

Joe, I think those reasons are better addressed in #31.

Wait, wait--I thought we were trying to get away from the yearly disappearing act?

No, yes, and yes. The people on O's list in #41 are unlikely to see an invitation to please vote posted here, I think. A year from now, 39 votes are going to be harder yet to come by, at least 39 knowledgeable votes/voters.

Seriously, from my outsider perspective, Lassus is right on. There's no leadership here anymore, so nothing is getting done. MMP sounds very cool, but if it's going to happen, somebody new needs to step up and just announce, "I'm running it, get me the keys." Every time I see Dimino post, he's just gotten a new job or moved and is trying to catch up with all the posts. You all can't wait for him. Tell him you're taking charge, and then do it.

Lassus - are you by any chance an unemployed website designer? I'll put up $50 for a good HoM website. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would contribute a little money to see a website happen. The real Hall of Fame needed fundraising to get off the ground, why wouldn't we?

DL - I wish. Sadly, all I can do is nag, as far as the website goes. I'd also contribute, though.

In a sadly increasingly petulant manner (see username)*, I'm simply trying to highlight that the lack of a dedicated HOM website strikes me (admittedly, an outsider) as an issue that isn't getting enough priority.

Well, at one time there was this. Although I notice that the date of their latest "weekly poll" was August 14, 2009......

*Dammit, Lassus, with a stick like that Schon I sold you, you should at least be able to hustle the rent money every month. And anyway, every pool player knows that work is overrated.

> Tell him you're taking charge, and then do it.

I thought John did step forward to start MMP in January. He already has the keys. I think bimonthly (every 2 months) is about as aggressive of a schedule as we could manage.

We probably need to formally amend the constitution to implement instant runoff. I think we could use some debate on the threshold (<1/2 ballots, <1/2 total possible points, etc). I like requiring ranking of the previous year's top 15 returnees plus any new players above 40 WAR.

We probably need to formally amend the constitution to implement instant runoff. I think we could use some debate on the threshold (<1/2 ballots, <1/2 total possible points, etc). I like requiring ranking of the previous year's top 15 returnees plus any new players above 40 WAR.

I think the point of everyone who is pushing the website is that everything you've mentioned here is #26-#30 and the website is numbers #1 - #25. I mean, again, if the members don't see it that way, they don't. But as someone who is a fan, follower, and supporter, I strongly disagree.

(As a caveat, I'll stick the MMP at #15, as that is a great idea.)

Maybe I should start learning web development for the sole purpose of making the HOM website.

A year from now, 39 votes are going to be harder yet to come by, at least 39 knowledgeable votes/voters.

Except for the fact that there were only 15 ballots posted at the actual first-announced deadline, I'm not entirely sure this is the case. The question is whether an e-mailed appeal to voters past and present should be standard practice when the ballot discussion thread goes up and when the ballot thread goes up.

When you look at the 'annual election' ballots, there's actually a fairly stable base in terms of numbers:

2011 39
2010 41
2009 40

There's just not enough data to draw any hard conclusions from that. Perhaps an examination of how many ballots were posted before any extension would do better at spotting any difficulty in recruiting voters.

Basically, about one-fifth of the voters fell away when the elections went annual. I'm not convinced a web site is the highest priority in getting them back. It might actually be an e-mail list that would do the trick. A web site might help with recruitment of new voters, though, especially if in conjunction with the Most Meritorious Player project.

I think you have a handle on it. The MMP keeps the current people interested. Runoff voting adds rigor to the process. A website is essentially advertising but it ensures the project will continue. The MMP project also gives the website something to report. 1 press release a year doesn't draw a lot of eyeballs nowadays. The website is probably the most important but amending the rules for runoff voting requires the least amount of effort.

If you are on those lists, I'm really hoping you vote next year, where the election is wide open. Has the forgone conclusion of the last two elections maybe been a reason for losing a few of you?

Having final projects for two grad school classes due at the same time as the Hall of Merit ballot is what kept me away this year. I hope to be back next year, or as soon as I can.

Well, at one time there was this. Although I notice that the date of their latest "weekly poll" was August 14, 2009......

I am the one who set up the current HallOfMerit.com. I am fully able and willing to push that along in whatever direction is needed. For over a year I have attempted to garner some feedback as to what kind of things, features, etc. the members are looking for and what sorts of things they would like to see on the website.

As Lassus has pointed out, the interest seems to be frustratingly low, which is why I haven't touched the site in several months. I am a developer, but I am more the builder than the designer. Of someone wants to sketch out some quick blueprints on the back of a napkin for me I would be more than happy to start working on some things again.

I am a big fan of the HoM, but I have never been a participant, and I don't really know what the active participants are looking for. Without a sense of direction, it is hard to progress. For example, I could easily set up a little registration system for voters, that allows them to login and conduct their votes through the website, and have it automatically tally the results. Hell, I could have it spit out a neat little AJAXy ballot with all eligible players that you can re-arrange into your preferred order with a drag-n-drop. But I'm not going to expend the time and energy to develop something no-one wants. And that's been the problem.

My email is available through the BBTF system, and Joe Dimino has it as well. I am a professional developer, and willing to work for free. Just tell me what you want, and you've got it.

I want the plaques for each player up. I'd love to see multimedia plaques telling the story of each player. This is the most important thing to me.

I want the advanced stats available (MLE's etc) for those players that needed them calculated.

I want the election results searchable year-by-year. I want to be able to search on any player and see when he received a vote.

I want the election results searchable year-by-year. I want to be able to search on any player and see when he received a vote.

This is already in place.

Donnie Baseball, for example.

I also started on a "plaque" sort of thing although it doesn't contain any multimedia (that would be tricky, with copyrights etc.) Here's a link to the Reggie Smith example.

I like the plaques, some multimedia would be public domain for the older players.

Shock,
I find all of your sentiments perfectly sensible and pragmatic, and I greatly appreciate your willingness to serve. It could be that our next focus could best be spent on figuring out what the group wants and then letting you know about it.

I used to work with web developers and have a pretty decent understanding of the conceptualizing he is asking about. I really think taking the bus off this site would be smart if we can move over all discussion threads as well, and present them in an easier to use format - currently way too much scrolling and slow loading. You voting idea sounds very attractive "I could have it spit out a neat little AJAXy ballot with all eligible players that you can re-arrange into your preferred order with a drag-n-drop."
I would be happy to be on a committee working out those details.
Thank you, Shock.

Shock/74:

One thing that jumps out at me from a quick look at the website is that the election results by player are missing points--it's much easier to visualize a player's support with points than by simply looking at the chart (the "off ballot" column is very helpful, when available, though it might be better as % of ballots the player appears on). While I'm on this topic, graphs of yearly support would be awesome, if they aren't too hard to make.

Can you beef up the links with articles that have been written about the Hall of Merit (Posnaski, blogs, etc)?

Can you complete all the plaques this year? Can you post the most recent election results prominently?

Another thing we should do is replace the yahoo group with a repository on the HoM webpage. Voters should have logins at the HoM.

I would be happy to be on a committee working out those details.

Me too. But most important, let's form one! Can we get the go-ahead from Joe to do that (and find out if he wants to be on it or not, of course)? That will help immensely in getting this moving.

Thank you, Shock.

Yes, a thousand times!

Can you beef up the links with articles that have been written about the Hall of Merit (Posnaski, blogs, etc)?

I imagine we would need to give Shock an actual list of the ones we want. Does anyone have one handy, or is it Google time?

EDIT: I heartily agree with this as well: really think taking the bus off this site would be smart if we can move over all discussion threads as well, and present them in an easier to use format - currently way too much scrolling and slow loading.

A link to an excellent article by Joe Posnanski:

Http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/12/29/hall.of.merit/index.html

Can you complete all the plaques this year?

This is something I could use some help with. If anyone is willing to put in some data-entry time let me know.

What is the yahoo group? I can work on a Voters login soon.

Not a single vote for a guy who might get into the HOF this winter (geez I hope not)? Interesting. I'm talking about Jack Morris of course.

Are there any other current HOF'ers who are not either in the HOM or who didn't get a top 15 vote this year - more the guys who played post the 1930's than the obvious ones who shouldn't be there.

Are there any other current HOF'ers who are not either in the HOM or who didn't get a top 15 vote this year

Hm. Orlando Cepeda is on the "Dropped Out" list, along with Morris. I also don't see any votes for Catfish Hunter or Red Schoendienst.

Kiki Cuyler - which as someone else mentioned is odd. He's not that bad of a selection. Also Leon Day, Ray Dandridge and Judy Johnson don't get any support.

duplicate

Articles published by Dan Rosenheck on New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/sports/baseball/21score.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/sports/baseball/02score.html?pagewanted=print

Thanks for penning those articles Dan.

Anymore articles forthcoming?

Will your pitcher and batter WAR be updated soon, or in time for the 2012 election cycle?

John Northey / 83:

Hall of Famers not Hall of Merit, not receiving a vote for the Hall of Merit 2011 election:

SP’s
Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Jesse Haines
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Rube Marquard
Herb Pennock

C’s
Rick Ferrell
Ray Schalk

1B’s
Jim Bottomley
Orlando Cepeda
George Kelly

2B’s
Red Schoendienst

3B’s
Ray Dandridge
Judy Johnson
Fred Lindstrom

SS’s
Travis Jackson

LF’s
Chick Hafey
Heinie Manush

CF’s
Earle Combs
Lloyd Waner

RF’s
Kiki Cuyler
Harry Hooper
Tommy McCarthy
Ross Youngs

Hall of Fame, Not Hall of Merit:
Highest Points Totals in 2011 Election
Phil Rizzuto
Hugh Duffy
Vic Willis
Kirby Puckett
Burleigh Grimes
Tony Perez
Dizzy Dean
Ben Taylor
Mickey Welch
Pie Traynor
Addie Joss
Frank Chance
Hilton Smith
Dave Bancroft
Ernie Lombardi
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Chuck Klein
Lou Brock
Bruce Sutter
Johnny Evers
Rabbit Maranville

Receiving One Vote Hall of Famers:
Hack Wilson (yest)
Luis Aparicio (Chris Fluit)
Lefty Gomez (rawagman)
George Kell (yest)
Tony Lazzeri (ronw)
Joe Tinker (Mike Webber)
Bill Mazeroski (Fra Paolo)

BBWAA Electees not Inducted into Hall of Merit:
Kirby Puckett - 1st ballot
Tony Perez
Dizzy Dean
Pie Traynor
Jim Rice
Lou Brock - 1st ballot
Bruce Sutter
Rabbit Maranville
Luis Aparicio
Zero votes:
Catfish Hunter
Herb Pennock

I would take Kiki Cuyler as the best Hall of Famer not to receive a vote in the 2011 election.

Hopefully the data set is correct, and I apologize for any issues.

Also Leon Day, Ray Dandridge and Judy Johnson don't get any support.

I'm glad Willie Wells wasn't that third name.

Howie,

There are few discrepancies on your list compared to mine.

Elliott 5118
Traynor 3716
Cash 3692
Brock 3120
E. Howard 2839
Bonds 2728
Veach 2388
Puckett 2386
Concepcion 2032
...
Newcombe 1585
Reushel 1426
...
Cone 1245

I am announcing my Hall of Fame ballot here first...as I did last year

As always it was tough....I looked at many people very hard....I am sure I will be blistered for my votes but feel free to correspond at tr.sullivan@mlb.com. FYI...I have covered the Rangers for 22 years.

Roberto Alomar - Quite deserving
Jeff Bagwell - Just thought he was more dominant than McGriff or Olerud.
Bert Blyleven - You guys swayed me on this one
Barry Larkin - Hard choice in picking him over Trammell
Mark McGwire - As always, I decline to sit in judgement on the steroids issue
Jack Morris - I go back and forth on him. This year...yes
Rafael Palmeiro - Same as McGwire
Tim Raines - Very close. As a GM, I would rather have Parker or Murphy but he was a great leadoff hitter.

I also voted for Juan Gonzalez and Kevin Brown...personal reasons. Sorry, I can do that

What about...
Edgar Martinez - Saw him in person for many years against the Rangers. Great great hitter. As a DH, I wish his career offensive numbers were a little better.
Larry Walker - Looked at him hard. Very hard. Just didn't pull the trigger. Looked at some road numbers that held me back for now.

TR.Sullivan@mlb.com

Tim Raines - Very close. As a GM, I would rather have Parker or Murphy but he was a great leadoff hitter.

Then why aren't you voting for Parker or Murphy? (I'm pretty sure they're both still on the ballot, right?)

"Then why aren't you voting for Parker or Murphy? (I'm pretty sure they're both still on the ballot, right?)"

Because he already voted for 10 players. All in all, this is not a bad ballot (to me only 2 questionable choices, one of which was obviously a hometown connection). I think the best thing about it is that it includes 10 votes. With more and more candidates entering the ballot in upcoming years, the number of votes per ballot will need to increase to prevent a logjam that keeps players from getting elected.

Right, but it's 10 players including Raines. Why not choose Parker or Murphy over Raines?

Just think Raines is more overall deserving because of his career but think that Murphy and Parker... at their best...were the better players....They just didn't have the complete careers necessary

Thanks again, TR!

acknowledging the two "personal reasons" votes as personal, the rest of the ballot, save Morris, is very encouraging.

thank you for allowing us the chance to quarrel and dicker, TR.

ust think Raines is more overall deserving because of his career but think that Murphy and Parker... at their best...were the better players....They just didn't have the complete careers necessary

That reasonable, late 70s Dave Parker really was a serious impact player for few years before he had... issues.
I'm not sure Murphy had higher peak than Raines, but it was a little longer, it was that abrupt cliff dive that did Murphy in

This is already in place.

Donnie Baseball, for example.

How about adding the total points and where they finished on the ballot?

Thanks to Rick A, the REAL keeper of the lists

FIXED

all-time 'votes points' thru 2011 - those still eligible in 2012 election are in CAPS

electees are not in caps

top 4 locked in place for all eternity, it seems
Redding may be only 3 years away from overtaking Welch for most pitching pts
Cravath celebrates rise into all-time top 20
Walters annexes 22nd, Grimes claims 29th, Williamson 48th, all others unchanged
Willis could catch Keller for 50th in 2 years, barely

TOP 50, ALL-TIME, unofficial
DUFFY...... 27398.5
VAN HALTREN 26905.5
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
WELCH...... 18613
Childs..... 18484
REDDING.... 18130
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976

CJones..... 15875
TLEACH..... 15660
Bresnahan.. 14965
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
RYAN....... 12663.5X
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349
CRAVATH.....12064

Roush...... 12005
WALTERS.....11633
Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
Beckwith.... 9896
DOYLE....... 9794
GRIMES.......9613
HStovey......9576

BJOHNSON.....9529
Mackey.......8930
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
McGraw.......8145
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
BMONROE......7861

Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
SCHANG.......6837
WILLIAMSON...6680
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424

Others in active top 50 (36)
Willis 6151, Dean 5814, Elliott 5118, Bridges 4900, Joss 4760, Rizzuto 4566, BTaylor 4504, TPerez 4217, FChance 3755, Traynor 3716, CMays 3713, NCash 3692, Tiant 3660, Cepeda 3449X, SRice 3277, Cicotte 3239, McCormick 3219, Brock 3120, EHoward 2839, BoBonds 2728, Tiernan 2709, Singleton 2690, FJones 2636, Klein 2586, VStephens 2523, BClarkson 2421, Veach 2388X, GJBurns 2388, Puckett 2386, Staub 2383, Mullane 2328, Dunlap 2259, Lombardi 2215, Bancroft 2047, Concepcion 2032, Poles 1842X

(Newcombe 1585, Reuschel 1426, Cone 1245)