He was just THAT good.

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Curt Shilling
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza

Sorry folks, I'm in the extreme minority at Primer in that I will not vote for (reasonably) proven PED guys.

Not to start an argument or anything, but what's the reasonable proof against Clemens or Sosa? The evidence against them doesn't seem to be any stronger than it does against Bagwell or Piazza. Just wondering.

Not to start an argument or anything, but what's the reasonable proof against Clemens or Sosa? The evidence against them doesn't seem to be any stronger than it does against Bagwell or Piazza. Just wondering.

I think there is enough against Clemens. And I don't think Sosa is good enough, although it's close. The corked bat pushes him firmly into my out pile though (I frown upon all forms of cheating not just steroids).

Bleed the Freak/95:

If you had to, could you name 15 players who belong in the hall of merit who havent been elected, and 15 that are unworthy that have been elected.

I appreciate being asked, but I can't.

The Hall of Merit voters as a group have taken the research into historical player performance beyond anything that I think anyone has ever done - certainly far beyond anything that I've ever done - with a group decision-making process that leads to self-criticism and reevaluation to an extent that I don't think we've every seen before, either. It's not my place as a non-participant who hasn't done the research to second-guess the decisions made by that group of people.

-- MWE

Not to start an argument or anything, but what's the reasonable proof against Clemens or Sosa? The evidence against them doesn't seem to be any stronger than it does against Bagwell or Piazza. Just wondering.

I think there is enough against Clemens.

Forget the fact that he was acquitted in court, but what sort of evidence would you want to give you a more than reasonable doubt that Clemens used steroids?

He had two accusers. One (McNamee) was scarcely credible, and the other (Pettitte) backtracked to the point where he admitted he was unsure of what Clemens had told him.

The physical evidence (the syringes) was more than ambiguous in what they could have proven.

And if you examine the years that McNamee claimed that Clemens was juicing (1998, 2000 & 2001), there's no discernible improvement over anything he'd ever done before. He won a CYA in 1998, but he'd also won the same award with even better stats the previous year. Contrast the complete randomness of his performance during his alleged juicing years with the marked spikes of Barry Bonds, whose best years came after he'd began juicing, and who'd never had years like those before that.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that Clemens juiced, but when the evidence presented against him is as shaky and full of hearsay as it was presented during his trial---which ended in acquittal---I don't see how you can equate him with players against whom the evidence was a lot more tangible.

My ballot, in order:

Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza
Raines
Trammell
Sosa
Palmeiro
McGwire
Bagwell

Others that I would vote for if there was no limit:

Schilling
Martinez
McGriff

In past years I would have thrown a sympathy vote to Bernie Williams, but there's no room this year. Not a HOFer, but it's a shame that he will likely be one and done.

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell

My ballot:
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell

With apologies to these guys, for whom I have no room:
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Larry Walker

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Jeff Bagwell
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Craig Biggio
Larry Walker
Mark McGwire

It hurts to leave off Trammell & Martinez... but I'll just go with this list and leave it at that.

I'm not sufficiently convinced that he was clean

This is one of the dumbest sentences I have ever seen written at BBTF.

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Kenny Lofton

Using the same system as I use for the HOM, which favors prime/peak over career and strongly considers where a player ranks among his peers, in order:

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Edgar Martinez
Rafael Palmeiro
Craig Biggio
Tim Raines
Larry Walker
Sammy Sosa

I'd also vote for McGwire, Schilling, Trammell and Dale Murphy, given the chance. Bernie Williams just misses the cut.

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Edgar Martinez
Craig Biggio
Tim Raines
Larry Walker
Alan Trammell
Curt Schilling

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell

My HOF vote in rank order:

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell

Craig Biggio, Rafael Palmeiro, Kenny Lofton and Mark McGwire would get "yes" votes if there was no limit.

EDIT: Whoops, left off Edgar.

I'm not sure who is counting the ballots, but I've got an email from OCF with the tally through post #116. Just let me know who to send it to . . .

bump - still 24+ hours to vote.

I don't think anyone formally stood up and said "I'm counting ballots".

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Balloting is closed. Joe - there's only one ballot to add to OCF's tally.

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Craig Biggio
Tim Raines
Kenny Lofton
Larry Walker

Are there any plans to actually post the results? I have a tally that I can post in this thread if nobody's going to start a new one.

I think things quieted down for the holidays. If your tally matches Joe Dimino / OCF then someone I can probably post a results thread tomorrow.

Sorry, I've never done this before, this one is usually John Murphy's thing. Now that he's gone as an admin, I'll get the results up. This was off my radar after I voted.

Missed this but what the hay. Here's mine, roughly in order of most worthy since I have more than 10 qualified candidates:

In:

1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. Piazza
4. McGwire
5. Bagwell
6. Schilling
7. Trammell
8. Biggio
9. Raines
10. Palmeiro
11. Sosa
12. McGriff
--------------

Borderline but could be convinced:
1. LWalker
2. LSmith
3. DMurphy
4. BWilliams
5. EMartinez
6. KLofton

Out:
1. DMattingly
2. DWells
5. JMorris

Alphabetically:

Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
McGriff
Murphy
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Trammell

had a tough time limiting to 10. Murphy got the last spot due to this being his last year eligible.