Wednesday, December 12, 2012
2013 Results: Bonds, Clemens, Piazza and Biggio are elected to the Hall of Merit!
(bbtf)
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza and Craig Biggio have been elected to the Hall of Merit!
The timing for our first year electing 4 candidates could not have worked out better, since class of 2013 is the strongest in terms of electees that we’ve ever had. The top of the 1934 ballot included Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins, Pop Lloyd, Smokey Joe Williams and Cristobal Torriente, but only 2 were elected.
Bonds and Clemens were each unanimous at 1 and 2. I believe that’s the first ...
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< 1 2 3 >Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Raines
Trammell
Walker
Schilling
Martinez
Looked back at several and was surprised. Edgar overcame my DH bias. McGriff nearly made it. (What if the Yankees had kept him and traded Mattingly?) Also liked Murphy more than expected.
Oh, sure, vote for the two white guys, racist! ;-)
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Morris
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Trammell
Walker
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Would also vote for:
Edgar Martinez
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
2) Barry Bonds
3) Craig Biggio
4) Curt Schilling
5) Jeff Bagwell
6) Mark McGwire
7) Mike Piazza
8) Roger Clemens
9) Sammy Sosa
10) Tim Raines
Would also vote for Rafael Palmeiro, Edgar Martinez, and Larry Walker if not for the 10 player limit.
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Kenny Lofton
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Yea, like others, I'd vote for Palmeiro, Sosa, Martinez, and Whittaker without thinking about it, and could be persuaded on Murphy and McGriff.
Looking at the ballots, no because after the first 5 or 6 there might be 8 or 9 guys at 70% because they're all so close.
Bagwell
Biggio
Barry Bonds
Clemens
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Sosa
Trammell
Bonds
Sosa
Raines
Trammell
Piazza
McGwire
Bagwell
Schilling
Biggio
this was very very hard to do, also mine are in no order in particular.
Roger Clemens
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Larry Walker
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
The 'if I had mroe room' votes are: Fred McGriff, Dale Murphy, Bernie Williams
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
1. Barry Bonds
2. Roger Clemens
3. Mark McGwire
4. Mike Piazza
5. Curt Schilling
6. Sammy Sosa
7. Craig Biggio
8. Tim Raines
9. Jeff Bagwell
10. Alan Trammell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
McGwire
Martinez
Piazza
Raines
Trammell
Walker
Lofton and Sosa are the next closest. I'd vote for Lofton if I had 11, Sosa's less obvious to me. Schilling is probably a no for me. Palmeiro... I remain torn but leaning no. I think Bernie's a no as well. On the other hand I have a hard time really drawing a delineation between Martinez/Walker and Sosa/Palmeiro that I'm comfortable living with. If my vote actually mattered and I was able to vote for 14 guys I probably would (still no on Schilling).
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Rafael Palmeiro (2012)
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines (2008)
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell (2002)
Larry Walker (2011)
Year in parenthesis is the year these guys were elected to the Hall of Merit. Edgar was elected in 2010 and McGwire in 2007 also.
This was a tough ballot. I easily could have voted for 15. I would give a yes to Bernie Williams, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa easily. Possibly Lofton, Edgar and McGriff too. If ballot had been properly cleared by the BBWAA over the last decade, I would easily have room to add Williams, Mattingly, Sosa, Lofton and McGriff.
I am not a supporter of Mattingly, Lofton or McGriff per se, but I always vote for all ten spots unless the guys are just obviously terrible choices. I don't think this type of election works properly if people don't vote for ten most of the time.
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Raines
Trammell
Bagwell
Biggio
Schilling
Palmeiro
Walker
Craig Biggio*
Barry Bonds*
Roger Clemens*
Kenny Lofton*
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza*
Curt Schilling*
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa*
1) Jeff Bagwell -- About as good an all-around player as you're going to get from a corner. Kind of is to Albert Pujols and Jimmy Foxx was to Lou Gehrig.
2) Craig Biggio* -- A hell of a lot of fun to watch play. Selfless ballplayer, willing to play any position to stay on the field. Could have been a world-class catcher, as well. Stuck around too long to reach some milestones.
3) Barry Bonds -- The single greatest ballplayer since the retirement of Mays -- and that was before he bulked up. I don't dare hope to see his like again; I lived in the SF suburbs in the fall of 2002, and the atmosphere was absolutely magical. The man was god-damned invincible. Once saw him hit a triple . . . after he got heavy.
4) Roger Clemens -- Lacked the pure electricity of Pedro at his peak, or the terrifying presence of the Unit, but had an incredible combination of physical toughness and pitching intelligence that made him the greatest pitcher of the 5-man-rotation era, possibly the greatest pitcher other than Walter Johnson. Murderous splitter. Unrepentant yokel. Also seemed invincible at times.
5) Edgar Martinez -- The toughest call for me was Martinez over Sosa / Walker. I will admit to a sentimental attachment, here, but this isn't the Hall of Merit, it's the (pretend) Hall of Fame, and Gar was everything a kid growing up in the Northwest wanted to be: smart, patient, humble, tough. Just a hell of a hitter -- probably the greatest DH ever. The arguments of those who feel his lack of defense disqualifies him don't exactly fall on deaf ears for me, but if the Hall has room for relievers, it has room for one of the greatest hitters of his generation. Much more of an idol to schoolboys in the PNW than A-Rod ever was.
6) Mark McGwire -- Once signed a napkin for me at a bagel shop in Claremont, CA, where he grew up and I went to college.
7) Mike Piazza -- The greatest hitting catcher of all time, excepting maybe Josh Gibson. A much, much better fielder than he was given credit for; an intelligent handler of pitchers and a good field general with a weak arm and small hands that caused him to be not much good at the most obvious, but not most important, aspect of a catcher's game: throwing out baserunners. A hero to teenaged catchers (like me) everywhere in the 1990s.
8) Tim Raines -- Pass.
9) Curt Schilling -- My least-favorite player from the 2004 Red Sox; high in the running for my least-favorite player of all time. But the ############ could pitch.
10) Alan Trammell -- AT's lack of mainstream support continues to mystify me. He passes every test I can think of: best player at his position more than once; best player on a great team that won the WS; good defender, good hitter; even has the "small ball"-type qualifications that some writers claim to find lacking in other players. He even "felt like" a Hall of Famer: how is this man still on the outside looking in?
LEFT OFF, NOT BECAUSE UNQUALIFIED, BUT BECAUSE OF SPACE ISSUES:
Rafael Palmeiro -- Overrated fielder, no discernable peak, but too consistently good to ignore. I sometimes think that both HoF and HoM voters systematically underrate players like Palmeiro because of an emphasis on peak value and having a systematic approach. It destroys nuance and pointlessly disqualifies people. I voted for him last year; I would vote for him in any other.
Kenny Lofton -- Similar to Palmeiro in that his peak isn't all that high, but he was a great percentage player, and he's one of the few with very high dWAR numbers to pass my eyeball test. Not unlike Raines, to me.
Sammy Sosa -- Good fielder in youth, terrible fielder in age. Okay hitter in youth, great hitter later on. Mark McGwire's beard. Unfairly maligned.
Larry Walker -- All-around player who is very unlikely to make the real Hall, but who suffers from a sort of reverse-Coors effect: I think people underrate him because they know how much his ballpark inflated stats, and thus are blind to the fact that he was a great hitter anywhere.
Bagwell
Biggio
Clemens
Edgar Martinez
Palmeiro
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Trammell
Left off Lofton, Sosa, McGwire, and Larry Walker because of the vote cap. Next year for them, and maybe Bernie Williams.
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Larry Walker
Craig Biggio
Mark McGwire
Sosa, Martinez, Palmeiro and Lofton would also be over my PHoM line but there's no space for them.
Not only will there be no room for them next year, but some of the guys you voted for this time as well. More qualified guys will come on next year (Maddux, Thomas, Glavine, Mussina) than will be elected this year.
On ballot:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Roger Clemens
3. Mike Piazza
4. Curt Schilling
5. Jeff Bagwell
6. Alan Trammell
7. Tim Raines
8. Rafael Palmeiro
9. Larry Walker
10. Craig Biggio
Just off due to space:
1. Edgar Martinez
2. Mark McGwire
3. Sammy Sosa
4. Kenny Lofton
As the person who posted #28 (thanks, guys) and as someone who probably will tally and communicate the results to Joe for posting ...
I'll say that the post by STEAGLES (#29) is a joke, and a joke does not count. The post by 'zop (#30) is an outlier opinion, which is not the same thing as a joke, and does count.
Heh. Yes, I did mean #29. I was already counting #30.
Roughly in order, but not exact. I could see myself flipping Raines and Walker, and I'm not 100% sure about anyone's placement after them.
1) Barry Bonds - I saw #756: Greatest "Eh, I'll watch one at bat before bed" ever
2) Roger Clemens - Easily the least likable of the Big Four, but perhaps the most qualified.
3) Jeff Bagwell - Short career, but about as great a 15-year career as anyone could ask for. I seem to remember him barely being able to throw by the end of his career; apart from that I'm not positive that his game had any weak spots.
4) Curt Schilling - Possibly the 5th best pitcher of his generation, easily in the top 10. A big pile of strikeouts with few walks, and the postseason record doesn't hurt, even though it's not necessary.
5) Mike Piazza - WAR has no love for catchers. If his defense was as bad as his reputation, someone could have moved him to 1st, where his bat still probably would have landed him in the Hall.
After that, no one really stands out as head and shoulders above the rest.
6) Tim Raines - Fully qualified; it would be easier to choose him from among the rest if he had played CF, and it isn't so far-fetched to think he would have on a different team. I'm a little surprised his baserunning wasn't worth more.
7) Larry Walker - Loses major points for in-season durability; I'd like him better if he'd had a compact, durable career like Bagwell. But he was an elite talent, the epitome of a five-tool player.
8) Craig Biggio - Not as much of a compiler as Palmeiro, but a compiler nonetheless. Turn a couple of his good seasons into great ones and he probably ends up on the top half
of the ballot.
9) Alan Trammell - Another durability issue, though he was better at staying on the field than Walker. Not as great, though.
10) Rafael Palmeiro - Woody Allen famously noted that "80% of success is showing up". At one point I had given this spot to Mac, then Edgar, but it's Palmeiro's tireless good-to-greatness that gets him the final place on my ballot. A compiler, but a Hall of fame-caliber one. From 1988-2004, didn't miss more than 10 games in a season, and was well above average for most of that time.
Outside:
Edgar Martinez - He could absolutely hit, but at this moment (as in, it could change as soon as I post my ballot), Palmeiro's 3300 extra PAs, in-season durability, and defense beat Edgar's superior bat. As a side note, my mom once employed a woman who claimed to be his cousin. If she had been able to return my card, autographed, I may have a different ballot.
Mark McGwire - I don't like one-dimensional take-and-rake sluggers in general, even though he may have been the best (it's either him or Thome). Short, magnificent career, but not enough. Practically anything - speed, defense, longer career, durability - would have gotten him on the ballot.
Kenny Lofton - Raines was better. I would love to get a chance to vote for him, but here in his first year on the ballot he's already lost in the shuffle, with a wave of talent to come over the next several years; I'm not optimistic.
Sammy Sosa - 8 seasons of 60+ HRs in Major League history, and he has 3 of them. It's hard to say no to that. But I'm not sure what to make of his career. It's hard to tell whether his best argument is peak or prime. His peak has some truly eye-popping Hr and RBI totals, but also coincides pretty closely with the height of sillyball. His prime adds a few years of one-dimensional mashing + speed and defense. But the whole thing just doesn't add up - he doesn't work as a career candidate, despite the HRs, WAR isn't very friendly to his peak, and his prime isn't anymore impressive than the other zillion qualified candidates. I'd give him extra credit for narrative, etc., on a weaker ballot, but this one's way too deep.
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Curt Schilling
Craig Biggio
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Larry Walker
Mark McGwire
These guys also belong in the HoF but miss my top 10:
Rafael Palmeiro
Edgar Martinez
Sammy Sosa
Kenny Lofton
Craig Biggio
Curt Schilling
Edgar Martinez
Barry Bonds
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mike Piazza
Larry Walker
Biggio
Bonds, Barry
Clemens
Martinez, Edgar
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Trammell
Williams, Bernie
Regrets to several deserving players who had to be left off.
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Unfortunately, there may be some help in the other direction, as people don't make 5%. I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if Larry Walker's still an option next year.
Sort of in order:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Roger Clemens
3. Mike Piazza
4. Alan Trammell
5. Jeff Bagwell
6. Craig Biggio
7. Curt Schilling
8. Larry Walker
9. Tim Raines
10. Kenny Lofton
Honorable mention (the other 6 guys I'd vote for): Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Dale Murphy
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
HM - Biggio, Lofton, McGriff, Sosa, Trammell
Biggio
Morris
D.Murphy
Piazza
Raines
Trammell
L.Smith
E. Martinez
Bagwell
Biggio
Clemens
McGwire
Palmeiro
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Trammell
Didn't read the instructions or can't understand them?
Clemens
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Lee Smith
I wasn't going to vote for Schilling, but then I took a look at his run support again. Schilling's teams won 89 games when he was handed 4 or fewer runs of support; a typical team of his era would have won 67 over that same number of starts. Given the parks that he pitched in most of his career (most of which were good hitters' parks) that's a really good record; the guys who do that well are usually guys like Seaver and Ryan who spent a lot of years in pitchers' parks. Furthermore, Schilling's team performance was better than expected almost across the board, distributed fairly evenly across every level of support - there wasn't a level where Schilling's teams fell below expectations by more than a win.
My position on PED usage boils down to this - the one thing that I know about PEDs is that they help you recover more quickly from aches and pains and help you stay on the field more. Thus, the more that a player's case relies on longevity and/or durability, the more sure that I have to be that the player didn't use in order to put him on the ballot. That's why no McGwire or Bagwell, and now no Biggio. I went back and forth on Biggio a lot, but I left him off because his case rests to a large degree on his exceptional durability and with what is out there about the clubhouse environment in Houston during his career I'm not sufficiently convinced that he was clean. For me, Bonds, Clemens, and Piazza at their best were *so* much better than the norm that the PEDs don't come into play; they'd have been clear HOFers even with careers that were 2-3 years shorter. That isn't the case for McGwire, Bagwell, or Biggio, at least in my evaluation.
-- MWE
Schilling was +22 over a typical pitcher
Blyleven was +16
Morris was +10
and both Blyleven and Morris had longer careers, pitching in lower run environments in general.
There's an article in this but I don't think I'm going to get it written before the end of the year.
-- MWE
If you had to, could you name 15 players who belong in the hall of merit who havent been elected, and 15 that are unworthy that have been elected.
Thanks
Clemens
Piazza
Biggio
Bagwell
Raines
Tramell
Schilling
Walker
McGwire
possibly one of the few rare times so many ppl would have trouble fitting everyone they want to vote for on the ballot, Lofton / Martinez/ Palmerio / Sosa / McGriff are all reasonable candidates IMHO (in that order, Lofton / Martinez is interchangable with Walker / McGwire to some extend I'd think)
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Curt Shilling
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
High Five.
Do people take me seriously? I honestly have no idea. They shouldn't of course...
Again?
Lefty Grove got 6 votes in an actual HOF election 13 years after he was elected (after correctly receiving no votes for the 12 years before that).
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