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I must admit when speaking of Lemon, Maggs and Baines I was thinking career, not White Sox career ... which is cheating on my part. Still:
Maggs with Sox: 4214 PA, 23 WAR, 125 OPS+
Lemon with Sox: 3198 PA, 23 WAR, 126 OPS+
Baines with Sox: 6800 PA, 22 WAR, 118 OPS+
So that is close but the 126 OPS+ CF with good defense wins. The PA gap between him and Maggs is almost 2 seasons worth. I always forget how much time Baines spent with Baltimore and others. The only reason I had Baines in the conversation was his ridiculously long career puts you into a career vs peak argument ... but not so much for just his Sox career and his defense was never good so you probably wouldn't take him over Maggs in the OF.
And Minoso: 5900 PA, 39 WAR, 133 OPS+
Jackson: 2900 PA, 34 WAR, 159 OPS+
One of them has to move to RF unless we missed somebody. White Sox historically are all about the IF
Appling 70
Thomas 65
Collins 63
Fox 45
Minoso 39
Ventura 37
Aparicio 33
G Davis 31
So 6 of the top 8 are 2B/SS/3B. Davis played some CF apparently but not for the Sox and he was faded by the time he got to them. Fielder Jones (thank you P-I) put up 30 WAR mostly in CF so maybe he gets the nod over Lemon. If they get to keep their part of Collins' career then they've simply got to package Fox and Aparicio for a legit corner OF bat. The Braves were whining about their 2B and SS, see what you can pry loose from them.
I also notice that Fisk, Schalk and Lollar have essentially the same WAR.
By the way, I assume one of you suckers has nothing better to do, slap these babies into Diamond Mind and run a few thousand seasons and let's see what we get. Let's say the original 16 play a pre-expansion schedule and the 10 expansion teams that have been around a while can have their own league. Let's see if the A's can catch the Yanks and if the Cubs can give the Cards and Giants any trouble. (Hmmm ... what stat line to put in? How about best 5 consecutive for that team?)
Surely somebody has done this already but I don't remember seeing it.
Which one of Rickey, Willie, Barry or Reggie do you send to the bench?
Reggie based on playing time for the A's and peak production. The only real question about that is neither Barry nor Rickey really have the arm for right. Giambi would also lose out based on PT I suppose.
How about a platoon -- Reggie (RF), McCovey/Giambi (1B/DH) against RHP, Rickey and McGwire and, ohh, Gene Tenace against LHP. Oh, what the hell, let's platoon Mays and Bill North while we're at it. :-)
In a perfect world, you'd send one of the second basemen to third and have Miggy DH. Either way, that's a killer lineup.
Stearns is the only great Negro Leaguer who spent significant time in Detroit; part of the reason for that is the Negro Leagues weren't too popular in Detroit (actually, blacks themselves weren't too popular in Motown until the 70s). The Detroit Stars pretty much died out in the early 30s when their ballpark burned down.
Starting pitchers: Newhouser, Bridges, Lolich, Morris, Verlander
Relief Ace: Hiller
On the roster because it's my team: Fidrych
Not on the roster for the same reason: McLain
57.micker17 posted on October 07, 2012 at 09:17 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
c- Yogi Berra----------Bill Dickey, Thurman Munson, Jorge Posada, Elston Howard
1b- Lou Gehrig----------Don Mattingly, Jason Giambi, Mark Teixeira
2b- Tony Lazzeri--------Robinson Cano, Joe Gordon, Willie Randolph
ss- Derek Jeter---------Phil Rizzuto
3b- Alex Rodriguez------Graig Nettles
rf- Babe Ruth-----------Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield, Paul O'Neill, Roger Maris
cf- Joe DiMaggio--------Bernie Williams, Earle Combs, Bobby Murcer
lf- Mickey Mantle-------Rickey Henderson, Roy White, Willie Keeler, Charlie Keller
sp- Whitey Ford
sp- Lefty Gomez---------Roger Clemens, David Cone, Mike Mussina, CC Sabathia
sp- Ron Guidry----------Mel Stotlemyer, Catfish Hunter, Tommy John
sp- Red Ruffing---------Allie Reynolds, Vic Raschi, Eddie Lopat, Spud Chandler
sp- Andy Pettitte-------Jack Chesbro, Carl Mays, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock, Bob Shawkey
rp- Mariano Rivera
rp- Goose Gossage
rp- Sparky Lyle
rp- Dave Righetti
rp- Johnny Murphy
rp- Joe Page
Robinson 2B
Reese SS
Wheat LF
Snider RF
Campanella C
Cey 3B
Hodges 1B
Davis CF
What amazed me when I first read this was how many of these players were teammates, and how little spread there is among decades. Robinson, Reese, Campanella, Snider and Hodges were all part of the "Boys of Summer" era. Hodges and Davis were teammates for a couple of years. Cey is the only one on the list who was with the Dodgers post-1973. Wheat's career is the only one that begins prior to 1940; in fact, Wheat is the only one on the list to have not played under Manager Walter Alston.
Again, I was just amazed that, for a franchise that has had as much success as the Dodgers have had, so much of the team occupies such a small time frame of history.
One of them has to move to RF unless we missed somebody.
Yeah, you're probably right. Minoso played about 100 games in right for the Sox, so I don't think it'd be cheating to put him there , Jackson in left, and Magglio on the bench.
And you're also right regarding Lemon. He was better than I've been giving him credit for. Though now that you bring up Fielder Jones, if we give him any credit for also being the manager during his best years, he'd have to be the guy in CF.
The other question is who would manage the White Sox team. Al Lopez (840W, 650L)? They never won the World Series under Al, but they were consistently good. If you want somebody with a championship, your options are Fielder Jones himself (426W, 239L), Pants Rowland (339W, 247L) and Ozzie Guillen (678W, 617L).
60.BDC posted on October 07, 2012 at 10:41 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
We need a Senators/Twins team.
C Joe Mauer
1B Harmon Killebrew
2B Rod Carew
3B Buddy Lewis
SS Cecil Travis
RF Tony Oliva
CF Kirby Puckett
LF Goose Goslin
SP Walter Johnson
SP Jim Kaat
SP Bert Blyleven
SP Jim Perry
actually there are a lot of closely-grouped starters to choose among after Johnson, Kaat, and Blyleven, including Frank Viola, Camilo Pascual, Knuckleball Dutch Leonard, Frank Viola, Johan Santana. (For that matter, Brad Radke is pretty high on the franchise's leaderboards; looking back, he was a much better pitcher than I remember.) I'd want Firpo Marberry in the bullpen.
One is tempted to move Killebrew to third to get another bat in the lineup, Mickey Vernon or Kent Hrbek; but Buddy Lewis was pretty good. The defensive standout at 3B would be Ossie Bluege, though Gary Gaetti was also very good.
Before Mauer, the franchise's best catchers were Muddy Ruel, Earl Battey, Butch Wynegar, and Brian Harper. Quite an upgrade …
Yeah, I was thinking about that. Not only are the Yankees deep, but its starting eight, except for second base, is arguably all-time inner circle great. And the pitching, while except for Clemens, has no truly inner circle greats, and Clemens only pitched a short while for them, is still pretty damn impressive.
62.Mefisto posted on October 07, 2012 at 11:56 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
It's kind of cheating to include Clemens and Rickey on the Yankees team. Clemens put up less than 15% of his career value with the Yanks, while Rickey put up just 35%. #57 makes the Yankees look much deeper than they actually are.
63.Mefisto posted on October 07, 2012 at 11:59 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
Following up Walt's suggestion in 54, a Diamond Mind tournament would be great. There'd have to be some rules about which players go to which teams (e.g., original team or team for which they had the most value) and which positions they can play (e.g., 200 games in the majors or something like that). But it would be fun.
64.BDC posted on October 07, 2012 at 12:16 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Looking at those Senators/Twins again, it's a heavily LHB lineup (sort of the reverse of the Braves). In a Diamond Mind league, Killebrew and Puckett would probably see a lot of "marginal" LHP (given that "marginal" in an all-time league is going to be the likes of Andy Pettitte or Billy Pierce).
The other question is who would manage the White Sox team. Al Lopez (840W, 650L)? They never won the World Series under Al, but they were consistently good. If you want somebody with a championship, your options are Fielder Jones himself (426W, 239L), Pants Rowland (339W, 247L) and Ozzie Guillen (678W, 617L).
I think it's clearly Lopez, despite the lack of a ring. Not that it's the only factor but he's also the only Hall of Famer on the list.
Yeah, I was thinking about that. Not only are the Yankees deep, but its starting eight, except for second base, is arguably all-time inner circle great. And the pitching, while except for Clemens, has no truly inner circle greats, and Clemens only pitched a short while for them, is still pretty damn impressive.
Only if you are giving credit to the player for their whole careers. Arod as a Yankee isn't inner circle, he's merely just very good. But I was noticing when comparing the Cardinals to the Yankees, that the Cardinals fourth best position player of all time was Ozzie Smith, the Yankees was some guy named Dimaggio. (and the Yankees still have Jeter and Yogi to add to that list)
It's kind of cheating to include Clemens and Rickey on the Yankees team. Clemens put up less than 15% of his career value with the Yanks, while Rickey put up just 35%. #57 makes the Yankees look much deeper than they actually are.
Wow, just looking at Rickey, he brought 30 war to the Yankees(in five years). I didn't think he was that good with the Yankees. That is someone they could arguably claim on their lineup, unless we are using the rule about player can only be claimed by one team. Clemens though 19 war,114 era+ over 6 seasons, is ok, but it's not really anything I would expect to make an all time team of the Yankees caliber.
Following up Walt's suggestion in 54, a Diamond Mind tournament would be great. There'd have to be some rules about which players go to which teams (e.g., original team or team for which they had the most value) and which positions they can play (e.g., 200 games in the majors or something like that). But it would be fun.
That would be pretty cool, although I imagine almost every world series in this hypothetical being Yankees vs Giants. Another version would be to create a diamond mind out of best teams based upon the best single season at each position, which would reduce the controversy about selection process in some respects but would end up bringing in a lot more one season wonders and may not be as enjoyable.
It's kind of cheating to include Clemens and Rickey on the Yankees team. Clemens put up less than 15% of his career value with the Yanks, while Rickey put up just 35%. #57 makes the Yankees look much deeper than they actually are.
Yeah, that bench includes a lot of guys who put up more value with other franchises. I bent the concept a bit by including F Robbie on the Orioles since they've built a statue to him, but the Yankees list is a little ridiculous. Giambi is on the A's (8 yrs to 7, 26.6 WAR to 20.2), Winfield should probably be a Padre (fewer seasons but more WAR), Keeler is with the old Orioles (nearly two and a a half times the WAR) or the Dodgers if you want a current franchise (14.6 to 10.2 on WAR), Mussina is with the Orioles (more seasons and more WAR), Catfish Hunter is with the A's (twice the years, nearly four times the WAR), Tommy John is with the White Sox (one fewer season, 3.5 more WAR) and Carl Mays is with the Red Sox (though just barely with 15.2 to 14.7 WAR and 15 more innings). The Yankees have enough great players of their own that they don't need to swipe them other franchises.
In a perfect world, you'd send one of the second basemen to third and have Miggy DH. Either way, that's a killer lineup.
Gehringer had 3 games at 3rd so he'd probably be the guy you move though you correctly noted that Whitaker had more games at DH. Whitaker at 2nd (+77 fielding runs) and Gehringer as DH would also be preferable. I would agree with you concerning Cabrera as their best third baseman. With their up the middle defense, the all-time Tigers could handle Cabrera pretty easily. Finally, if you're denied Stearnes bc. he wasn't technically a Tiger, Crawford could move over to left (he had 134 games there).
Starting pitchers: Newhouser, Bridges, Lolich, Morris, Verlander
Relief Ace: Hiller
On the roster because it's my team: Fidrych
Not on the roster for the same reason: McLain
The Tigers have a really deep staff, even after losing Bunning to the Phillies. Dizzy Trout and Virgil Trucks were a couple of great pitchers in the 1940s and could supplant Lolich and Morris if you're looking for rate stats instead of innings eaters.
The Giants franchise may very well beat out the Yankees in terms of who could put together the best 25 man roster. Shortstop is a bit of an issue, but otherwise the positions all seem to fall into place nicely. As crazy good as the Yankees outfield would be, Bonds/Mays/Ott can't lose much ground to anybody.
I'm surprised that you'd consider shortstop a weakness for the Giants. They didn't have any inner circle players but they consistently put Hall of Very Good guys out there decade after decade.
Art Fletcher, 1912-1919 (45.1 WAR, 40.5 with the Giants)
Dave Bancroft, 1920-1923 (46.5 WAR, 22.1 with the Giants)
Travis Jackson, 1924-1934 (42.0 WAR, all with the Giants)
Dick Bartell, 1935-1938 (37.3 WAR, 25.9 with the Giants)
then after a bit of a gap
Al Dark, 1950-1955 (39.6 WAR, 25.3 with the Giants)
Definitely. I was reacting to the initial lineup and the comment that it was a position of weakness for the franchise. That's a deep group of shortstops. But you're right that Davis is at the top of the list and would probably count as an inner circle player.
So far, we've got teams for the Dodgers, Giants, Cardinals, (Giants redux), Blue Jays, Cubs, Red Sox, Reds, Orioles, White Sox, Tigers, Yankees, Senators/Twins and Mets.
Of the original 16, we're still missing the Pirates, Braves, Phillies, Indians, Athletics.
And of the expansion 14, we're missing the Marlins, Expos/Nationals, Astros, Brewers, Rockies, Diamondbacks, Padres, Rays, Royals, Mariners, Angels and Senators/Rangers.
1B: Alvin Davis (or John Olerud)
2B: Bret Boone
SS: Alex Rodriguez
3B: Edgar Martinez
LF: Jay Buhner (well, he did play 10 games in left in 2001, the only season he and Ichiro were there together)
CF: Ken Griffey Jr.
RF: Ichiro Suzuki
C: Dan Wilson
SP: Randy Johnson, Felix Hernandez, Mark Langston, Jamie Moyer
CL: Kazuhiro Sasaki
C: Gary Carter
1B: Rusty Staub
2B: Jose Vidro
SS: Orlando Cabrera
3B: Ryan Zimmerman
LF: Tim Raines
CF: Andre Dawson
RF: Vladimir Guerrero
SP: Steve Rogers
SP: Dennis Martinez
SP: Pedro Martinez (counting only his Montreal years)
SP: Javier Vazquez
SP: Livan Hernandez
Bullpen
RP: Mike Marshall
RP: Jeff Reardon
RP: John Wetteland
Bench:
2B: Delino DeShields
3B: Tim Wallach
LF: Rondell White
CF: Marquis Grissom
RF: Moises Alou
That's a world class outfield and bullpen but a very weak rotation and bench (at least until some of the current players mature; this team will be a lot better in 4-5 years with full primes from Desmond, Gonzalez, Harper and Strasburg).
Royals
C - Mike McFarlane?
1B - Mike Sweeney
2B - Frank White
SS - Freddie Patek
3B - Brett
LF - Willie Wilson
CF - Amos Otis
RF - Danny Tartabull
DH - Hal McRae
SP - Bret Saberhagen
SP - Kevin Appier
SP - Dennis Leonard
SP - Zack Greinke
SP - Mark Gubicza
RP - Quiz
Good staff. Strong in center (biggest snubs: Beltran, Damon). Weakest at catcher. Obviously heavy with 70s/80s players, when the club developed good talent, and kept it.
80.BDC posted on October 07, 2012 at 05:06 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
I'll take the Pirates, another of the teams I liked in my old dice game.
C Jason Kendall
1B Willie Stargell
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Pie Traynor
SS Honus Wagner
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Max Carey
LF you could platoon Paul Waner and Ralph Kiner, that's a heck of an option
SP Wilbur Cooper
SP Babe Adams
SP Deacon Philippe
SP Sam Leever
Dang, but that is a weak rotation. Bob Friend is actually the Pirates' all-time IP leader, but he was just not that great a pitcher. Bob Veale is a possibility; he had almost as many strikeouts as Friend in half the time with the team. The Pirates really have not added much to their all-time staff in 40 years. Doug Drabek was the pinnacle of their pitching since then. Luckily they have Roy Face and Kent Tekulve in the bullpen.
81.BDC posted on October 07, 2012 at 05:09 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Also, the notable thing about the Pirates that kept them afloat in the dice game despite weak pitching was an astonishing defense. If you get Lloyd Waner in left for the late innings, you have a fantastic outfield, and aside from Stargell (he played more OF but I think is a fair choice to play first for them), you have a phenomenal infield too. You can back up Kendall, as if he needs it, with Tony Peña Sr. and Mannie Sanguillen, more good gloves.
#57 makes the Yankees look much deeper than they actually are.
But they are still pretty damned deep. All time Spent their entire career with the Yankees team:
C - Dickey, Posada, Munson
1B - Gehrig, Mattingly
2B - Cano, Richardson
SS - Jeter, Rizzuto, Crosetti
3B - Rolfe, McDougald
LF - White, Keller
CF - DiMaggio, Mantle, Combs, Williams
RF - Henrich
SP - Ford
SP - Guidry
SP - Stottlemyer
SP - Chandler
RP - Mo
Aside from the pitching, you can make nearly 2 complete lineups from those guys. Add in guys who spent merely the overwhelming majority of their careers as Yankees like Berra, Lazzeri, Gomez, Raschi, Shawkey, Pettitte... and you can make 2 teams which would be competitive in a tournament.
83.BDC posted on October 07, 2012 at 05:23 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
And I guess I should do the Rangers while I'm here:
C Ivan Rodriguez
1B Rafael Palmeiro
2B Ian Kinsler
3B Buddy Bell played slightly longer in Cleveland and was somewhat better in Texas. I imagine the Rangers get him and Cleveland wouldn't necessarily need him. Sort of like a cosmic expansion draft
SS Toby Harrah
RF Ruben Sierra
CF Josh Hamilton
LF Juan Gonzalez
SP Charlie Hough
SP Kenny Rogers
SP Kevin Brown
Fourth starter: I've watched most of the Rangers' history, and I don't want any of those guys, frankly. I don't suppose they're entitled to Nolan Ryan or Ferguson Jenkins. (Or Perry or Blyleven or Cliff Lee, for that matter.) Rick Helling? Dick Bosman? I do not want Bobby Witt on any team that is supposed to play in an all-time league :)
Bullpen would be led by Jeff Russell and include Darold Knowles, who was better and pitched longer for Washington than anyone else. Several good options in a DH league, including Frank Howard and Jeff Burroughs.
84.Mefisto posted on October 07, 2012 at 07:09 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
@82: I didn't mean to limit the Yankees that much. "Played whole career" is too restrictive, obviously, since then Cobb can't play for Detroit, Aaron can't play for the Braves, etc. The Yanks deserve Ruth; it was just a stretch to give them guys like Clemens and Henderson too.
85.Mefisto posted on October 07, 2012 at 07:19 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
@80: You left out Arky Vaughn and Fred Clarke.
The Braves:
C Torre
1B Adcock
2B S. Gordon
3B Mathews
SS Maranville
LF Murphy
CF A. Jones
RF Aaron
DH C. Jones
SP Maddux, Smoltz, Niekro, Glavine, Spahn,
RP Bedrosian, Nichols, Willis, Garber, Reed
Bench: Berger, Elliott, Lopez, Carty, Dark, Furcal
Hell of a pitching staff. Kind of weak on offense.
86.KJOK posted on October 07, 2012 at 07:20 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Braves
C - J. Torre
1B - McGriff
2B - Cuccinello or Hubbard?
SS - Logan
3B - Mathews
LF - Carty
CF - Berger
RF - Aaron
Reserves - C. Jones, Maranville, Adcock, Justice, Red Smith
88.Mefisto posted on October 07, 2012 at 07:22 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Cleveland:
C Hegan
1B Thome
2B Lajoie
3B Rosen
SS Boudreau
LF Ramirez
CF Doby
RF Colovito
DH Belle
SP Feller, Lemon, Tiant, Joss, Wynn
RP Coveleski, Allen, Harder,
Ferrell, Uhle
Bench: B. Bell, J. Jackson, J. Sewell, Averill, Vizquel, L. Sewell
89.KJOK posted on October 07, 2012 at 07:23 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
2B S. Gordon
I had Gordon as a Giant and not eligible for my list, but probably a better choice than Cuccinello.
Oh, and Murphy should have been on my reserves list, with Hubbard off the team if he's not in Cuccinello's place.
90.Mefisto posted on October 07, 2012 at 07:25 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
And since I'd probably set up the Giants a bit differently:
C Bresnahan
1B W. Clark
2B Frisch
3B D. Evans
SS G. Davis
LF Ba. Bonds
CF Mays
RF Ott
DH McCovey
SP Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Perry, Rusie/Lincecum/Cain
RP Wilhelm, Miller, Lavelle, Linzy, Maglie
Bench: Bo. Bonds, Kent, Fletcher, M. Williams, Posey, J. Clark
91.KJOK posted on October 07, 2012 at 07:26 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Darrell Porter had more WAR in 4 years with the Royals than Macfarlane had in 11, for whatever that's worth.
95.KJOK posted on October 07, 2012 at 07:36 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Astros
C - Ashby
1B - Bagwell
2B - Biggio
SS - Menke
3B - Caminiti
LF - Cruz
CF - Wynn
RF - Staub
Reserves - Cedeno, Watson, Garner, Doran, Rader, L. Gonzalez, Cliff Johnson (Backup C!)
SP - Oswalt, Richard, Hampton, Scott, Dierker
P - Wagner, D. Smith, K. Forsch, D. Wilson, J. Niekro
Nolan Ryan goes to the Angels in this scenario...
96.Mefisto posted on October 07, 2012 at 07:37 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Did anyone do the Cardinals?
C Simmons
1B Hernandez
2B Hornsby
3B K. Boyer
SS Smith
LF Musial
CF Edmonds
RF Pujols
DH Mize
SP Gibson, Dean, Brecheen, Tudor, Lanier
RP Sutter, T. Worrell, L. McDaniel, L. Jackson, Haines
Bench: Schoendienst, Medwick, Slaughter, Marion, McCarver
Yeah, that's probably cheating on Pujols. If anyone objects, he becomes the DH.
Offense right up there with the Yanks and Giants, infield defense awesome except for Hornsby, but the pitching is weaker than the Giants. Still could be a favorite.
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Page 2 of 3 pages
< 1 2 3 >You're right. i was looking at oWAR
?
Perez? Even Frank McCormick... Votto might turn out to be better than both, but I don't think he's there yet.
Maggs with Sox: 4214 PA, 23 WAR, 125 OPS+
Lemon with Sox: 3198 PA, 23 WAR, 126 OPS+
Baines with Sox: 6800 PA, 22 WAR, 118 OPS+
So that is close but the 126 OPS+ CF with good defense wins. The PA gap between him and Maggs is almost 2 seasons worth. I always forget how much time Baines spent with Baltimore and others. The only reason I had Baines in the conversation was his ridiculously long career puts you into a career vs peak argument ... but not so much for just his Sox career and his defense was never good so you probably wouldn't take him over Maggs in the OF.
And Minoso: 5900 PA, 39 WAR, 133 OPS+
Jackson: 2900 PA, 34 WAR, 159 OPS+
One of them has to move to RF unless we missed somebody. White Sox historically are all about the IF
Appling 70
Thomas 65
Collins 63
Fox 45
Minoso 39
Ventura 37
Aparicio 33
G Davis 31
So 6 of the top 8 are 2B/SS/3B. Davis played some CF apparently but not for the Sox and he was faded by the time he got to them. Fielder Jones (thank you P-I) put up 30 WAR mostly in CF so maybe he gets the nod over Lemon. If they get to keep their part of Collins' career then they've simply got to package Fox and Aparicio for a legit corner OF bat. The Braves were whining about their 2B and SS, see what you can pry loose from them.
I also notice that Fisk, Schalk and Lollar have essentially the same WAR.
By the way, I assume one of you suckers has nothing better to do, slap these babies into Diamond Mind and run a few thousand seasons and let's see what we get. Let's say the original 16 play a pre-expansion schedule and the 10 expansion teams that have been around a while can have their own league. Let's see if the A's can catch the Yanks and if the Cubs can give the Cards and Giants any trouble. (Hmmm ... what stat line to put in? How about best 5 consecutive for that team?)
Surely somebody has done this already but I don't remember seeing it.
Reggie based on playing time for the A's and peak production. The only real question about that is neither Barry nor Rickey really have the arm for right. Giambi would also lose out based on PT I suppose.
How about a platoon -- Reggie (RF), McCovey/Giambi (1B/DH) against RHP, Rickey and McGwire and, ohh, Gene Tenace against LHP. Oh, what the hell, let's platoon Mays and Bill North while we're at it. :-)
1B: Greenberg (Cash)
2B: Gehringer (McAuliffe)
3B: Cabrera (yes, really)
SS: Trammell (Bush)
LF: Turkey Stearns (Veach)
CF: Cobb (Crawford)
RF: Kaline (Heilmann)
C: Freehan (Parrish)
DH: Whitaker
In a perfect world, you'd send one of the second basemen to third and have Miggy DH. Either way, that's a killer lineup.
Stearns is the only great Negro Leaguer who spent significant time in Detroit; part of the reason for that is the Negro Leagues weren't too popular in Detroit (actually, blacks themselves weren't too popular in Motown until the 70s). The Detroit Stars pretty much died out in the early 30s when their ballpark burned down.
Starting pitchers: Newhouser, Bridges, Lolich, Morris, Verlander
Relief Ace: Hiller
On the roster because it's my team: Fidrych
Not on the roster for the same reason: McLain
1b- Lou Gehrig----------Don Mattingly, Jason Giambi, Mark Teixeira
2b- Tony Lazzeri--------Robinson Cano, Joe Gordon, Willie Randolph
ss- Derek Jeter---------Phil Rizzuto
3b- Alex Rodriguez------Graig Nettles
rf- Babe Ruth-----------Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield, Paul O'Neill, Roger Maris
cf- Joe DiMaggio--------Bernie Williams, Earle Combs, Bobby Murcer
lf- Mickey Mantle-------Rickey Henderson, Roy White, Willie Keeler, Charlie Keller
sp- Whitey Ford
sp- Lefty Gomez---------Roger Clemens, David Cone, Mike Mussina, CC Sabathia
sp- Ron Guidry----------Mel Stotlemyer, Catfish Hunter, Tommy John
sp- Red Ruffing---------Allie Reynolds, Vic Raschi, Eddie Lopat, Spud Chandler
sp- Andy Pettitte-------Jack Chesbro, Carl Mays, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock, Bob Shawkey
rp- Mariano Rivera
rp- Goose Gossage
rp- Sparky Lyle
rp- Dave Righetti
rp- Johnny Murphy
rp- Joe Page
What amazed me when I first read this was how many of these players were teammates, and how little spread there is among decades. Robinson, Reese, Campanella, Snider and Hodges were all part of the "Boys of Summer" era. Hodges and Davis were teammates for a couple of years. Cey is the only one on the list who was with the Dodgers post-1973. Wheat's career is the only one that begins prior to 1940; in fact, Wheat is the only one on the list to have not played under Manager Walter Alston.
Again, I was just amazed that, for a franchise that has had as much success as the Dodgers have had, so much of the team occupies such a small time frame of history.
DB
Yeah, you're probably right. Minoso played about 100 games in right for the Sox, so I don't think it'd be cheating to put him there , Jackson in left, and Magglio on the bench.
And you're also right regarding Lemon. He was better than I've been giving him credit for. Though now that you bring up Fielder Jones, if we give him any credit for also being the manager during his best years, he'd have to be the guy in CF.
The other question is who would manage the White Sox team. Al Lopez (840W, 650L)? They never won the World Series under Al, but they were consistently good. If you want somebody with a championship, your options are Fielder Jones himself (426W, 239L), Pants Rowland (339W, 247L) and Ozzie Guillen (678W, 617L).
C Joe Mauer
1B Harmon Killebrew
2B Rod Carew
3B Buddy Lewis
SS Cecil Travis
RF Tony Oliva
CF Kirby Puckett
LF Goose Goslin
SP Walter Johnson
SP Jim Kaat
SP Bert Blyleven
SP Jim Perry
actually there are a lot of closely-grouped starters to choose among after Johnson, Kaat, and Blyleven, including Frank Viola, Camilo Pascual, Knuckleball Dutch Leonard, Frank Viola, Johan Santana. (For that matter, Brad Radke is pretty high on the franchise's leaderboards; looking back, he was a much better pitcher than I remember.) I'd want Firpo Marberry in the bullpen.
One is tempted to move Killebrew to third to get another bat in the lineup, Mickey Vernon or Kent Hrbek; but Buddy Lewis was pretty good. The defensive standout at 3B would be Ossie Bluege, though Gary Gaetti was also very good.
Before Mauer, the franchise's best catchers were Muddy Ruel, Earl Battey, Butch Wynegar, and Brian Harper. Quite an upgrade …
Yeah, I was thinking about that. Not only are the Yankees deep, but its starting eight, except for second base, is arguably all-time inner circle great. And the pitching, while except for Clemens, has no truly inner circle greats, and Clemens only pitched a short while for them, is still pretty damn impressive.
I think it's clearly Lopez, despite the lack of a ring. Not that it's the only factor but he's also the only Hall of Famer on the list.
Only if you are giving credit to the player for their whole careers. Arod as a Yankee isn't inner circle, he's merely just very good. But I was noticing when comparing the Cardinals to the Yankees, that the Cardinals fourth best position player of all time was Ozzie Smith, the Yankees was some guy named Dimaggio. (and the Yankees still have Jeter and Yogi to add to that list)
Wow, just looking at Rickey, he brought 30 war to the Yankees(in five years). I didn't think he was that good with the Yankees. That is someone they could arguably claim on their lineup, unless we are using the rule about player can only be claimed by one team. Clemens though 19 war,114 era+ over 6 seasons, is ok, but it's not really anything I would expect to make an all time team of the Yankees caliber.
That would be pretty cool, although I imagine almost every world series in this hypothetical being Yankees vs Giants. Another version would be to create a diamond mind out of best teams based upon the best single season at each position, which would reduce the controversy about selection process in some respects but would end up bringing in a lot more one season wonders and may not be as enjoyable.
Yeah, that bench includes a lot of guys who put up more value with other franchises. I bent the concept a bit by including F Robbie on the Orioles since they've built a statue to him, but the Yankees list is a little ridiculous. Giambi is on the A's (8 yrs to 7, 26.6 WAR to 20.2), Winfield should probably be a Padre (fewer seasons but more WAR), Keeler is with the old Orioles (nearly two and a a half times the WAR) or the Dodgers if you want a current franchise (14.6 to 10.2 on WAR), Mussina is with the Orioles (more seasons and more WAR), Catfish Hunter is with the A's (twice the years, nearly four times the WAR), Tommy John is with the White Sox (one fewer season, 3.5 more WAR) and Carl Mays is with the Red Sox (though just barely with 15.2 to 14.7 WAR and 15 more innings). The Yankees have enough great players of their own that they don't need to swipe them other franchises.
Gehringer had 3 games at 3rd so he'd probably be the guy you move though you correctly noted that Whitaker had more games at DH. Whitaker at 2nd (+77 fielding runs) and Gehringer as DH would also be preferable. I would agree with you concerning Cabrera as their best third baseman. With their up the middle defense, the all-time Tigers could handle Cabrera pretty easily. Finally, if you're denied Stearnes bc. he wasn't technically a Tiger, Crawford could move over to left (he had 134 games there).
The Tigers have a really deep staff, even after losing Bunning to the Phillies. Dizzy Trout and Virgil Trucks were a couple of great pitchers in the 1940s and could supplant Lolich and Morris if you're looking for rate stats instead of innings eaters.
I'm surprised that you'd consider shortstop a weakness for the Giants. They didn't have any inner circle players but they consistently put Hall of Very Good guys out there decade after decade.
Art Fletcher, 1912-1919 (45.1 WAR, 40.5 with the Giants)
Dave Bancroft, 1920-1923 (46.5 WAR, 22.1 with the Giants)
Travis Jackson, 1924-1934 (42.0 WAR, all with the Giants)
Dick Bartell, 1935-1938 (37.3 WAR, 25.9 with the Giants)
then after a bit of a gap
Al Dark, 1950-1955 (39.6 WAR, 25.3 with the Giants)
I agree. Ugg. Is it too soon to put Brett Lawrie there?
C - Piazza
1b - Hernandez
2b - Alfonzo
3b - Wright
SS - Reyes
LF - Cleon Jones
CF - Beltran
RF - Strawberry
SP - Seaver
SP - Gooden
SP - Koosman
SP - Cone
SP - Dickey!
RP - Franco, Orosco, McGraw
Of the original 16, we're still missing the Pirates, Braves, Phillies, Indians, Athletics.
And of the expansion 14, we're missing the Marlins, Expos/Nationals, Astros, Brewers, Rockies, Diamondbacks, Padres, Rays, Royals, Mariners, Angels and Senators/Rangers.
1B: Alvin Davis (or John Olerud)
2B: Bret Boone
SS: Alex Rodriguez
3B: Edgar Martinez
LF: Jay Buhner (well, he did play 10 games in left in 2001, the only season he and Ichiro were there together)
CF: Ken Griffey Jr.
RF: Ichiro Suzuki
C: Dan Wilson
SP: Randy Johnson, Felix Hernandez, Mark Langston, Jamie Moyer
CL: Kazuhiro Sasaki
C: Gary Carter
1B: Rusty Staub
2B: Jose Vidro
SS: Orlando Cabrera
3B: Ryan Zimmerman
LF: Tim Raines
CF: Andre Dawson
RF: Vladimir Guerrero
SP: Steve Rogers
SP: Dennis Martinez
SP: Pedro Martinez (counting only his Montreal years)
SP: Javier Vazquez
SP: Livan Hernandez
Bullpen
RP: Mike Marshall
RP: Jeff Reardon
RP: John Wetteland
Bench:
2B: Delino DeShields
3B: Tim Wallach
LF: Rondell White
CF: Marquis Grissom
RF: Moises Alou
That's a world class outfield and bullpen but a very weak rotation and bench (at least until some of the current players mature; this team will be a lot better in 4-5 years with full primes from Desmond, Gonzalez, Harper and Strasburg).
C - Mike McFarlane?
1B - Mike Sweeney
2B - Frank White
SS - Freddie Patek
3B - Brett
LF - Willie Wilson
CF - Amos Otis
RF - Danny Tartabull
DH - Hal McRae
SP - Bret Saberhagen
SP - Kevin Appier
SP - Dennis Leonard
SP - Zack Greinke
SP - Mark Gubicza
RP - Quiz
Good staff. Strong in center (biggest snubs: Beltran, Damon). Weakest at catcher. Obviously heavy with 70s/80s players, when the club developed good talent, and kept it.
C Jason Kendall
1B Willie Stargell
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Pie Traynor
SS Honus Wagner
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Max Carey
LF you could platoon Paul Waner and Ralph Kiner, that's a heck of an option
SP Wilbur Cooper
SP Babe Adams
SP Deacon Philippe
SP Sam Leever
Dang, but that is a weak rotation. Bob Friend is actually the Pirates' all-time IP leader, but he was just not that great a pitcher. Bob Veale is a possibility; he had almost as many strikeouts as Friend in half the time with the team. The Pirates really have not added much to their all-time staff in 40 years. Doug Drabek was the pinnacle of their pitching since then. Luckily they have Roy Face and Kent Tekulve in the bullpen.
But they are still pretty damned deep. All time Spent their entire career with the Yankees team:
C - Dickey, Posada, Munson
1B - Gehrig, Mattingly
2B - Cano, Richardson
SS - Jeter, Rizzuto, Crosetti
3B - Rolfe, McDougald
LF - White, Keller
CF - DiMaggio, Mantle, Combs, Williams
RF - Henrich
SP - Ford
SP - Guidry
SP - Stottlemyer
SP - Chandler
RP - Mo
Aside from the pitching, you can make nearly 2 complete lineups from those guys. Add in guys who spent merely the overwhelming majority of their careers as Yankees like Berra, Lazzeri, Gomez, Raschi, Shawkey, Pettitte... and you can make 2 teams which would be competitive in a tournament.
C Ivan Rodriguez
1B Rafael Palmeiro
2B Ian Kinsler
3B Buddy Bell played slightly longer in Cleveland and was somewhat better in Texas. I imagine the Rangers get him and Cleveland wouldn't necessarily need him. Sort of like a cosmic expansion draft
SS Toby Harrah
RF Ruben Sierra
CF Josh Hamilton
LF Juan Gonzalez
SP Charlie Hough
SP Kenny Rogers
SP Kevin Brown
Fourth starter: I've watched most of the Rangers' history, and I don't want any of those guys, frankly. I don't suppose they're entitled to Nolan Ryan or Ferguson Jenkins. (Or Perry or Blyleven or Cliff Lee, for that matter.) Rick Helling? Dick Bosman? I do not want Bobby Witt on any team that is supposed to play in an all-time league :)
Bullpen would be led by Jeff Russell and include Darold Knowles, who was better and pitched longer for Washington than anyone else. Several good options in a DH league, including Frank Howard and Jeff Burroughs.
The Braves:
C Torre
1B Adcock
2B S. Gordon
3B Mathews
SS Maranville
LF Murphy
CF A. Jones
RF Aaron
DH C. Jones
SP Maddux, Smoltz, Niekro, Glavine, Spahn,
RP Bedrosian, Nichols, Willis, Garber, Reed
Bench: Berger, Elliott, Lopez, Carty, Dark, Furcal
Hell of a pitching staff. Kind of weak on offense.
C - J. Torre
1B - McGriff
2B - Cuccinello or Hubbard?
SS - Logan
3B - Mathews
LF - Carty
CF - Berger
RF - Aaron
Reserves - C. Jones, Maranville, Adcock, Justice, Red Smith
SP - Maddux, Spahn, Niekro, Glavine, Willis
P - Smoltz, Garber, Bedrosian, McMahon, Sain
Phillies:
C Boone
1B Allen
2B Utley
3B Schmidt
SS Rollins
LF Flick
CF Ashburn
RF Magee
DH Delahanty
SP Carlton, Roberts, Alexander, Bunning, Schilling
RP Konstanty, Simmons, Short, Farrell, McGraw
Bench: Money, Bancroft, Klein, Abreu, Rolen, Daulton
C Hegan
1B Thome
2B Lajoie
3B Rosen
SS Boudreau
LF Ramirez
CF Doby
RF Colovito
DH Belle
SP Feller, Lemon, Tiant, Joss, Wynn
RP Coveleski, Allen, Harder,
Ferrell, Uhle
Bench: B. Bell, J. Jackson, J. Sewell, Averill, Vizquel, L. Sewell
I had Gordon as a Giant and not eligible for my list, but probably a better choice than Cuccinello.
Oh, and Murphy should have been on my reserves list, with Hubbard off the team if he's not in Cuccinello's place.
C Bresnahan
1B W. Clark
2B Frisch
3B D. Evans
SS G. Davis
LF Ba. Bonds
CF Mays
RF Ott
DH McCovey
SP Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Perry, Rusie/Lincecum/Cain
RP Wilhelm, Miller, Lavelle, Linzy, Maglie
Bench: Bo. Bonds, Kent, Fletcher, M. Williams, Posey, J. Clark
C- Semenick
1B - Allen
2B - Cash
SS - Bowa
3B - Schmidt
LF - Magee
CF - Ashburn
RF - Klein
Reserves - Thomas, Dysktra, Luzinski, Rolen, Cravath, Samuel, Boone
SP - Alexander, Carlton, Roberts, Schilling, C. Simmons
P - McGraw, Reed, M. Williams, Orth, Short
C - Mike McFarlane?
Darrell Porter had more WAR in 4 years with the Royals than Macfarlane had in 11, for whatever that's worth.
C - Ashby
1B - Bagwell
2B - Biggio
SS - Menke
3B - Caminiti
LF - Cruz
CF - Wynn
RF - Staub
Reserves - Cedeno, Watson, Garner, Doran, Rader, L. Gonzalez, Cliff Johnson (Backup C!)
SP - Oswalt, Richard, Hampton, Scott, Dierker
P - Wagner, D. Smith, K. Forsch, D. Wilson, J. Niekro
Nolan Ryan goes to the Angels in this scenario...
C Simmons
1B Hernandez
2B Hornsby
3B K. Boyer
SS Smith
LF Musial
CF Edmonds
RF Pujols
DH Mize
SP Gibson, Dean, Brecheen, Tudor, Lanier
RP Sutter, T. Worrell, L. McDaniel, L. Jackson, Haines
Bench: Schoendienst, Medwick, Slaughter, Marion, McCarver
Yeah, that's probably cheating on Pujols. If anyone objects, he becomes the DH.
Offense right up there with the Yanks and Giants, infield defense awesome except for Hornsby, but the pitching is weaker than the Giants. Still could be a favorite.
Shouldn't Caminiti then go to the Padres?
At least play Musial in right and Pujols in left.
He could, but he had 10 years with Houston vs. only 4 with San Diego. 126 Win Shares vs. 108 with San Diego.
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