roadrunner! my first "old" card...

And yet another guy whose autograph I sent off for & received (albeit on a photo) way back when, though he was active then, unlike Nicholson & Combs (& Stan Coveleski, who gets mentioned in the thread, too) ... & I think even Bob Nieman.

I knew Nicholson was a '40s Cub who struck out a lot by the standards of the time (I forget if I learned this from James or from the inclusion of the '45 Cubs in Micro League Baseball -- might well be both).

I didn't realize a) that he struck out so little by the standards of our time (a guy takes crap for 80 K per 162 games?? definitely a different era), or b) that he could be placed on a level with Strawberry, Justice, or (according to B-R) J.D. Drew and Larry Doby. Although of course there's a huge wartime adjustment that needs to be made here, that is nonetheless interesting.

Although I'm extremely reluctant to think that players should be elected to the Hall of Fame on the basis of "fame" per se, I still gotta think that this discussion is damning to the HOF case of Bobby Wallace. I mean, jeez.

I'm going to say that my best hitter I never heard of by WAR is Ed Konetchy. I have heard the name, but I could not tell you a single thing about him. And yup, the immortal Buffinton on the pitcher side.

Publius - I want to make note of an oddity. My comment #38 is right after Publius' comment #37. Normally, I'd give him credit, but his comment wasn't there when I was writing mine. Looking at the times, he appears to have submitted his comment 2 minutes before mine. I didn't see his until I came back here just now. At any rate, he gets credit for catching me with my hand in the cookie jar, even if I was catching the same hand in the same jar at the same time.

Rants - Yeah. It was confusion with Aurelio Rodriguez. I don't know why that happens, but I've gotten the two names confused more than once over several decades. You'd think I'd have a flag in my head whenever I see either name, telling me to stop and look the guy up before I ran my mouth, but not so far. I do tend to merge the 1950s and the 1960s together in my head, because that's when I was growing up and getting started following the game. In my memory, McAuliffe and Pierce were more or less contemporaries, although in any detail that's wrong. At least, I have no chance of confusing Dick Schofield with anyone other than his father or his son, depending on which Dick Schofield you're talking about.

On Nicholson, I'm going to stand my ground. Yes, he led the league in homers two years: 1943 and 1944. In Wrigley Field. He did have a few good (20+) homer seasons aside from those, but he also had seasons in the single digits, although they tend to not have as many PAs as the 20+ years do. Still, his 29 and 33 during the war were his best power seasons, and he spent his career in a good homer park. Remember, I was speculating on how he could come up in a list of comps to Roy Thomas, who was a dead ball era CF pretty similar to Billy Hamilton, although not nearly as good. Thomas had no power at all, but hit for average, fueled by bunts, and took walks. Nicholson, aside from the war years, had more weak power years than strong power years. I think you can have a good debate over whether Bill was a middle-order guy or a leadoff man. As a leadoff man, he's, I guess, as similar to Thomas as anyone other than guys like Dode Paskert, Billy Hamilton, and Richie Ashburn. But I wasn't trying to put Bill in a comp list for Roy; I was trying to speculate on why anyone would. Me? I'd put the three guys I listed in a list of comps to Thomas, rather than Bill. But if Bill is in there, I was trying to think through why.

Tom - Are you aware that there's a Yahoo group about All-Star Baseball? Like you, I got introduced to the game when I was a kid, but in my case, it was by an older kid who was always willing to play. Over the years, I've managed to accumulate all the discs Cadaco ever issued, except for the 1952B set. A lot of the guys in the group do things like you do - make computer simulations with pitcher rankings and such. I still play the game like I did when I was 10 or so, because when I was 19, that friend who intro'd me to the game died in a car accident, on the way home from his honeymoon. I've kept up with the game ever since, and play his team in a league, as my way of honoring his memory. There's even an annual magazine about the game, with lots of computer-generated discs, articles and disc photocopies, published by a man named John Rose. If you weren't aware of the group, you should check it out.

When you're looking up 19th c. pitchers, it's very helpful to keep in mind that the 1880s are sort of the adolescence of professional baseball. Players at the time had no idea how many league IP their arms could handle, so you get guys pitching a great 500+ IP season, followed by a 300 IP season of no great quality, and then back to 500 good IP, Worse, they also did not know that the IP limit was decreasing steadily, as overhand pitching and multiple pitches became the norm. So, you've got guys ending up with a 10-12 year career with as many IP as a modern starter gets in 18 years, and zero consistency. The 1870s aren't like that, because the schedules aren't long enough to overpower a pitcher's arm at the time. The 1890s, at least after 1892, are a completely different game for pitchers. But when dealing with the 1880s, it's usually best to deal with career totals, rather than trying to figure out how to compare Hoss Radbourne's 1884 to any season after about 1889.

And Tom, you finally got me. I have no idea who Erv Brame is, and am pretty sure I've never run across the name, except maybe in the Baseball Maniacs' Big Project. - Brock

Reposting:

Without consulting PI or Google, can anyone tell me who holds the rookie record for doubles in a season? Its one that very few people know, and the player is somewhat obscure.

Ah, crap, is it the second baseman who hit 40 doubles for the '42 White Sox? I cannot, for the life of me, remember his name.

My guess is one of those Negro League guys. Sam Jethroe springs to mind for some reason.

I was thinking of Don Kolloway, but it isn't him. I looked it up.

Oddly, both the NL and AL records for doubles in a season by a rookie are held by guys with two first names. (Noted the guy with two first names.)

Sam Jethroe has two first names.

He does/did, but it isn't him.

Well, Pujols hit 47 as a rookie and I assume it's not him, so someone had a hell of a rookie season...

Well, Pujols hit 47 as a rookie

so did Fred Lynn

On that ratings list, interesting to see Joe Torre and Ted Simmons both at 111.6, just ahead of Harmon Killebrew....

In their 1973 The Great American Baseball Card Flipping, Trading & Bubble Gum Book, Brendan Boyd and Fred Harris note that "Nicholson was named 'Swish' somewhat cruelly", and then add "and not for the reason you're probably thinking". AFAIK this was the only time his nickname was ever immortalized on a baseball card.

The doubles total was over 50, and the record has stood since well before integration, if that's any help.

Given that his face on that card is red as a beet, I'm thinking he must have kept a swish barrel in the clubhouse his whole career.

"Nicholson was named 'Swish' somewhat cruelly", and then add "and not for the reason you're probably thinking".

So he wasn't a flamboyant homosexual?

Dan G (#15) - Good Grief! What did I do to you that made you do THAT? That's what we were trying to do in the old Baseball Maniacs, and it caused the group to fall apart due to burnout.

Actually, I (mostly) enjoyed going through the exercise. I was one of the few people who sent in a ballot for your project. I have a copy of each one of your annual baseball books, from "The Baseball Abstract" successor, through "The Big Bad Baseball" annuals.

Eventually improving on your effort, four years ago I led an online project where we ranked the top 500 players: The Collaboration Game.

Dan - Thanks for the info. I'm glad you decided to do your own project, rather than thinking that something I'd said implied that you should try to rank the top 500 players. I tried doing that, or something close, for the Baseball Maniacs, and we just burnt out trying to get hold of that many players. Oh! I just remembered what project you were talking about. It was the one I tried to do with the BBBA, but got so few replies that the sample size was too small. THANK YOU for putting in all that work. I have a VERY warm feeling for anyone who actually submitted a ballot on that project.

Also, I'm about to retract just about everything I've said about Bill Nicholson. Thank you all for giving me enough grief to make me do this. I'd never thought about Nicholson much before. I checked BB-Ref, and Nicholson and Roy Thomas have COMPLETELY different similar player lists. Comment #24 says that the claim that they are similar comes from the article, so I read that and it's true. I have no idea what the article writer was smoking.

As I said, I've never looked seriously at Nicholson before, but I checked the New Historical Abstract entry, only to find out that Nicholson claimed that Wrigley Field was hard to hit in because of all the white shirts on the fans in the center field seats. James notes that Bill hit significantly more homers on the road than at home, and that his WWII stats should be treated as legit, because the balata ball just about counters the lack of stars who were in the army. I yield to the evidence. Bill Nicholson was at least a guy with mid-range power. I was making a Wrigley deduction that was, in Nicholson's time, completely undeserved. Nicholson is also not comparable in any way that I can see to Roy Thomas. This started with me trying to think what there might be about Bill that was similar to Roy, and I didn't do a good job, because the answer is "nothing." I should also shamefacedly admit that most of what I thought I knew about Nicholson comes from one Cadaco All-Star Baseball disc that he had. The disc gives him mid-range power. I should have listened to it.

Sorry, Brock

Sorry, Brock

No need to apologize to yourself, Brock.

I think he's apologizing to former MLB OF Brock Davis, though I have no idea why.

Erv Brame

Now there's a guy I'd never heard of. And I know a lot of old players, because I have a Strat-O-Matic solitaire league with about 8,000 players in it (MLB, NPB, Negro Leagues, AAGBL, etc.), all of them hand picked, so I've gone through the encyclopedias with a fine-toothed comb. But this guy escaped me. And looking at BR, that lifetime .306/.326/.429 batting line has to be one of the all-time best for a pitcher, doesn't it?

having been around since baseball began in the states i am familiar with pretty much all the players and their playing histories

//self-deprecating age joke

I was apologizing to Brock Peters and Brock Pemberton. They are the first two guys I ever heard of who shared my first name. Funny thing was, they were both black and seriously involved in theater. Peters was a star actor, and Pemberton was the first black theater critic to write for a non-race paper. BTW, "Brock" is Anglo-Saxon for "badger." "Hanke" is German for "haunch." So my name translates to - sigh - "Badger Butt." - Butt

brock

badgers are mean, cranky sumb8tches.

you should be proud

I demand that you change your BTF handle to "Badger Butt" right this minute.

Funny thing was, they were both black and seriously involved in theater.

Brock Landers is another Brock who was seriously involved in theater. And a lot of other ####.

Bobby Wallace should be recognized as, I believe, one of only two Hall of Famers to play most of their games with the St. Louis Browns, Sisler being the other. Paige played most of his major-league games with the Browns, but his late-career MLB years aren't the primary reason he's in the Hall. Rick Ferrell is next closest; he played more for the Browns than any other team but not a majority of his career.

Brock Davis debuted in the majors at age 19.

Brock Lesnar is another.

I demand that you change your BTF handle to "Badger Butt" right this minute.

Seconded. So much more fun than "God Is My Judge Meadow", which is how my name translates.

I think "ass badger" has a springier ring to it.

Seconded. So much more fun than "God Is My Judge Meadow", which is how my name translates.

And mine would be "God is My Judge Bailiff." How ... not very interesting.

I think "ass badger" has a springier ring to it.

Yes. Even better.

Think of the opportunities. You go to a singles bar with a buddy and approach a couple honeys. Your buddy introduces: "Hi, I'm Steve and this is my buddy Ass Badger. What're your names?"

How could you possibly whiff?

Since nobody has gotten yet, the rookie doubles record is 52 and belongs to 27 year-old Johnny Frederick of the 1929 Dodgers. He also had 127 runs, 206 hits, 24 homers and a .328/.372/.545 line, which was only good for a 126 OPS+ that year.

Since the year of my birth, the player that has accumulated the most WAR (positional player) that I have no recollection of or knowledge about is #250 on my list, Bill North (24.9 WAR).

For pitchers, it's much higher on that list, as it's #59 John Matlack (36.3 WAR).

Both of them are before I really started watching baseball, or made a name for themselves in the NL (and I usually only saw AL games).

Since the year of my birth, the player that has accumulated the most WAR (positional player) that I have no recollection of or knowledge about is #250 on my list, Bill North (24.9 WAR).

For pitchers, it's much higher on that list, as it's #59 John Matlack (36.3 WAR).

For this my answers are Bill Doran and Steve Farr.

In fact Bill Doran really stands out with 30.6 WAR. Above Jack Clark, BJ Surhoff, Keith Hernandez, Edgar Renteria. Who the hell is Bill Doran?

The next highest unknown player is Johnny Ray with 21.6. Apparently I need to read up more on second basemen taken by the Astros in the 1979 draft.

Funny how precise these things are. I remember Johnny Ray vividly just killing the Reds when I was an adolescent. In my memory he had an extra-inning game where he got at least 6 hits.

And I remember him mainly because he attended the U. of Arkansas. Pretty decent hitter for a 2B, IIRC.

Who is this "George T. Seaver"?

I remember Johnny Ray vividly just killing the Reds when I was an adolescent. In my memory he had an extra-inning game where he got at least 6 hits.

The best match I found was this game, which Ray won with his third hit in the 15th inning.

The best match I found was this game, which Ray won with his third hit in the 15th inning.

And funny how imprecise my memory is!

#250 on my list, Bill North (24.9 WAR).

I remember Bill North mostly for his 1973 Topps baseball card showing him with an airbrushed A's hat while wearing a Cubs jersey.

One thing about McAuliffe is he had perhaps the weirdest batting stance I had ever seen. His stance was way open, sort of like Brian Downing, and he leaned way back on his rear foot, so far that his front foot was barely touching the ground. And his bat was nearly parallel to the ground. Really strange stance.

My parents had one of the most bitter arguments I've ever heard - over Dick McAuliffe's batting stance ("He holds his bat like this." "No he doesn't, you moron, he holds it this way"). I was 9 years old at the time and it was the first time that I was aware that there was apparently trouble in paradise and that Happily Ever After...wasn't. Not surprising they split up not too long after that.

At least my wife and I don't argue over silly things like a player's batting stance. We find much more reasonable things to have arguments about, like the DH.

Everyone chimes in to remember Bill North and Johnny Ray, but still nobody mentions Bill Doran. Did he ever exist? Maybe the Bill Doran page is like those imaginary towns that mapmakers include to ward off plagiarism. The mid-80s Astros didn't have a second baseman. It would do no good to station someone there, because all the grounders went so fast on the Astroturf.

Doran: scrappy little doubles machine, sort of a Biggio light---did he directly precede Biggio at 2b??? I think he fell off the 2b cliff earlier than usual, but he was pretty good early on. I recall him having kind of big lips...

And the so-called pictures of this "Bill Doran" don't prove anything. He looked exactly like Craig Biggio, and he played 2B until Biggio supposedly took over? Pull the other one.

Doran
Biggio

Doran
Biggio

I don't buy it.

BTW, has anyone else spent a lot of time this winter watching classic games through MLB? I've got the iPhone app,

Which app is that?

Doran: scrappy little doubles machine, sort of a Biggio light---did he directly precede Biggio at 2b???

Not quite - the immortal Casey Candaele held down the fort in 1991.

Candaele, by the way, is one of my all-time favorite ballplayers. I'm fully aware of his shortcomings (of which there were many), but I can't help but love a guy who went undrafted, made his MiLB debut at 22, scratched and clawed his way to the majors, played seven positions, fought back from a .170/.228/.238 age 27 season and a full year in the minors at age 28 to be part of a pennant-winner at age 36, and played in the minors until he was nearly 40.

I know the term "scrappy" is generally only used for white utility infielders, but Candaele deserved the title. By sheer force of will, he spent nearly 20 years in pro ball.

Doran: scrappy little doubles machine, sort of a Biggio light---did he directly precede Biggio at 2b??? I think he fell off the 2b cliff earlier than usual, but he was pretty good early on. I recall him having kind of big lips...

OK, that's what I get for posting before looking anything up. He was NOT a doubles machine (only hit as many as 30 once) but I still maintain he was scrappy. And then he put up his career-best OPS+ (135) at age 32, and then had two middling seasons as a more-or-less regular after that...