BBTF.org/m/history : Lombardi: Baseball’s Greatest Fielders By Position

Wednesday, December 12, 2012

2013 Results: Bonds, Clemens, Piazza and Biggio are elected to the Hall of Merit!

(bbtf)

posted on December 12, 2012 at 10:14 PM by Joe Dimino to history | 61 comment(s)

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza and Craig Biggio have been elected to the Hall of Merit!

The timing for our first year electing 4 candidates could not have worked out better, since class of 2013 is the strongest in terms of electees that we’ve ever had. The top of the 1934 ballot included Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins, Pop Lloyd, Smokey Joe Williams and Cristobal Torriente, but only 2 were elected.

Bonds and Clemens were each unanimous at 1 and 2. I believe that’s the first ...

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1. JRVJ posted on December 14, 2012 at 01:53 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Oh, this is going to be fun.

2. charityslave is thinking about baseball posted on December 14, 2012 at 01:58 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I agree with every single one of these rankings.

3. Bob Tufts posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:03 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Belanger wins the award for playing his entire career at shortstop without wearing a cup.

4. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:12 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Only one of these players played an inning before I was born, and he retired all of 11 months before. I detect skewage.

I admit that I didn't see that much of Jack Wilson, but Jack Wilson? Did I miss something?

5. Double-Spin Mechanic posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:13 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

In other news, Jack Wilson and Mark Ellis have apparently retired.

6. PepTech posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:14 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Jack Wilson *and* Brendan Ryan. What, no Spike Owen?

7. UCCF posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:15 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Oh, this is going to be fun.

I looked at the catcher methodology, and found Johnny Bench about 2/3 of the way down the list, right after Jody Davis.

I remember Jody Davis. This is not right.

8. Esoteric throws a 'hard slider' posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:15 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Jack Wilson was great defensive shortstop in his prime, and Brendan Ryan is easily the greatest currently playing, but the omission of Adam Everett is perplexing.

9. Mefisto posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:17 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

As pointed out in comments at the blog, the method takes no account of decline phase. Thus, to pick an easy example, it simply takes Rfield per games played for both Willie Mays and Paul Blair, despite the fact that Mays played 1000 more games. If he wants to make a career value argument, then he has to account for that. If he wants to make a peak value argument, then he has to define a peak. For now, he's in no-man's land.

10. depletion posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:19 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Mike Bordick on the list but no (contemporary) Rey Ordonnez. hmmm. Bordick came over to the Mets in 2000, when Ordonez was injured and the impression many had was that there was a fielding drop off. Same pitchers, same opposition, same ballparks. I'll have to go check the data.

11. JJ1986 posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:21 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Something is wrong with his queries because he missed Rickey Henderson even though he has 80% of his games in LF.

12. depletion posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:25 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I see. Ordonez's peak was higher, but Bordick had the better career.

13. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:32 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I admit that I didn't see that much of Jack Wilson, but Jack Wilson? Did I miss something?

Wilson was a great defender. It seems insane to have him ahead of Ozzie (I assume that's what Honorable Mention means) but he was a truly great defender.

Bernard Gilkey was the one that shocked me. I'm not saying he wasn't good or even great I just don't remember seeing him and thinking "wow" nor do I remember a lot of buzz about his defense.

14. zonk posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:39 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I looked at the catcher methodology, and found Johnny Bench about 2/3 of the way down the list, right after Jody Davis.

I remember Jody Davis. This is not right.

That's Gold Glove winner Jody Davis to you...

Davis' defensive 'prowess' to me was always a matter of his improvement from dreadful to passable to fringing on good. His first couple seasons he was just terrible... couldn't block pitches in the dirt to save his life, couldn't throw anyone out, etc. By 1984/5 - he had learned to do these things passably well. He got his GG in 1986 in recognition of no longer being a bad DH catching, then -- satisfied -- almost promptly disappeard.

15. AROM posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:47 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Jody Davis in 1986 was damn valuable on defense. He threw out 89 runners, with 98 stealing successfully. That's worth about 20 runs right there, he would have to have been beyond horrible at the rest of catching defense to offset that.

He did this while playing in the same division as Tim Raines (70/9) and Vince Coleman (107/14), which makes his CS% all the more impressive.

16. AROM posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:50 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

His first couple seasons he was just terrible... couldn't block pitches in the dirt to save his life, couldn't throw anyone out,

For all his other faults on defense, Davis was never bad at throwing people out. He threw out 43% as a rookie, and was never worse than 28% in any season - 28 percent is at least break even level.

17. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:51 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

[13] thanks. I mean I thought Wilson was really good SS but never noticed anything to make me think that he was an alltimer. It didn't help that the Pirates never showed up on national broadcasts during his career.

18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:56 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

This list seems way too tilted towards modern players; only one guy who played the bulk of his career before 1960.

19. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) posted on December 14, 2012 at 02:59 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Ten years ago this list would have been compiled using Range Factor or some other stat and produced completely different results.

20. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:00 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Tony Barron is ranked #1 for RF, but he's thrown out just because his career was 58 games long.

He flew too close to the sun.

21. something like a train wreck posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:04 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Austin Jackson is shocking, and I'm a huge Austin Jackson fan. He covers a lot of ground, but he has more than his fair share (or at least more than a great fielder's fair share) of wrong breaks and bad lines. He records a lot of outs because he's surrounded by human statuary.

22. Matt Clement of Alexandria posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:12 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

This list seems way too tilted towards modern players; only one guy who played the bulk of his career before 1960.

It's a function of the methodology.** B-Ref uses three quite distinct sources and methods for its fielding runs. For the contemporary era, we have DRS, and for the recent modern era we have a PBP-based version of Total Zone. These include no regression to the mean factor, and simply report estimated runs saved. For the pre-PBP era, Total Zone includes a regression factor which limits the extent of fielding runs above or below the mean.

**A quick google fails to confirm that what I wrote is correct. This is my recollection, but I could be wrong.

23. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:21 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

RF Jesse Barfield Roberto Clemente Ichiro Suzuki

Nice.

24. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:23 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'd like to see Yadier Molina catch without a mitt. That would separate the men from the boys.

25. Dale Sams posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:25 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Crawford is the greatest active despite stinking/notplaying for two years? Ok..I guess...

26. bjhanke posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:29 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

My all-time Gold Glove list would be:

c Johnny Bench or Buck Ewing (an almost impossible comparison because of the vast difference in equipment and rules)
1B Charlie Comiskey (with credit for inventing a lot of what is now modern 1B defense)
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Jimmy Collins (basically did invent modern 3B play)
SS Rabbit Maranville (he played 25 years and hit WHAT?)
LF Fred Clarke, if you're only allowing LF to compete
CF Curt Flood or Tris Speaker
RF Roberto Clemente, if only RF can compete

- Brock Hanke

27. phoenixscienter posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:43 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Simmons is a better SS than Ryan right now.

28. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:50 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Kevin Young 28th all time at 1B?

Jeff Francoeur 8th. Seems legit.

29. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:53 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

30. Willie Mayspedes posted on December 14, 2012 at 03:58 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Utley is the best right now with all his injury troubles? What about Darwin Barney on fielding percentage (and cool name bonus points)?

31. Matt Clement of Alexandria posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:11 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

So, you're saying the methodology is pretty much much worthless for the old-timers?

I don't think it's worthless. It makes good use of the retrosheet data, it's reasonable and logical, it produces reasonably normal looking results.

The problem is using unadjusted RField to compare contemporary players to past players, when the methods diverge so significantly.

32. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:24 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I don't think it's worthless. It makes good use of the retrosheet data, it's reasonable and logical, it produces reasonably normal looking results.

That out of 16 players, not one played in the aughts, teens, twenties and the first 8 years of the thirties is reasonable and logical and produces reasonably normal looking results?

33. AROM posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:25 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

For the pre-PBP era, Total Zone includes a regression factor which limits the extent of fielding runs above or below the mean.

This is correct. Doesn't make the ratings worthless, at least in my totally biased opinion. It's just the way I thought was best to deal with data sources that have gone from being only useful in a very general sense to data sources that have become much more detailed.

Because of that, ranking players by runs saved per inning is not a good way to compare players of today with players who played 75 years ago or something. As an alternative, I'd suggest something like a point system for being the best fielder at your position in each year.

I guess another approach would be to use only data available to all players, like shortstop assists above average, and then convert that to z scores or something.

34. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:27 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

No Peter Bourjos? GTFO.

35. Sunday silence posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:27 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

BJ: what about Ashburn and Dom DiMaggio for the CF slot?

36. Don't want the truth; just wanna see some dingers posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:30 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I've never heard of Paul Blair before.

37. Publius Publicola posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:39 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I like Brock's list a lot. My list would look very similar.

38. bobm posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:43 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Pos.  Greatest All-Time ... 
 1B   Keith Hernandez

QFT

39. Matt Clement of Alexandria posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:49 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

That out of 16 players, not one played in the aughts, teens, twenties and the first 8 years of the thirties is reasonable and logical and produces reasonably normal looking results?

The two methods should not be compared on a per-inning basis because of the regression issue.

Each of the methods is reasonable itself. They just work on different ranges of value and can't be easily compared at the top or bottom end of the scale.

40. gef the talking mongoose posted on December 14, 2012 at 04:57 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I've never heard of Paul Blair before.

Man, I hope that's a joke.

41. PreservedFish posted on December 14, 2012 at 05:04 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Bernard Gilkey? That's the weirdest name.

42. cardsfanboy

posted on December 14, 2012 at 05:42 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

This list seems way too tilted towards modern players; only one guy who played the bulk of his career before 1960.

Improved field conditions, glove, scouting and equipment. Along with raising the overall quality of player will do that. It doesn't mean they were actually better, but that they were getting to more balls.

43. WahooSam posted on December 14, 2012 at 05:44 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

My "Best That I've Watched" would be (approx. 1972 onwards)

C - Bench
1B- Hernandez
2B - Orlando Hudson
SS - O. Smith
3B - Schmidt
RF - Barfield
CF - Devon White
LF - Rickey

I watched mainly NL in 70's, and Blue Jays in 80's onwards, so you can see my biases

44. cardsfanboy

posted on December 14, 2012 at 05:46 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Looking at the firstbaseman list, and I'm shocked to see Pujols not on the list at all among top 40. There is no way Teix is that much better.

45. JJ1986 posted on December 14, 2012 at 05:47 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Looking at the firstbaseman list, and I'm shocked to see Pujols not on the list at all among top 40. There is no way Teix is that much better.

He doesn't qualify because it's restricted to guys who mostly played one position. I think that knocks out Andruw Jones too.

46. cardsfanboy

posted on December 14, 2012 at 05:50 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

c Johnny Bench or Buck Ewing (an almost impossible comparison because of the vast difference in equipment and rules)
1B Charlie Comiskey (with credit for inventing a lot of what is now modern 1B defense)
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Jimmy Collins (basically did invent modern 3B play)
SS Rabbit Maranville (he played 25 years and hit WHAT?)
LF Fred Clarke, if you're only allowing LF to compete
CF Curt Flood or Tris Speaker
RF Roberto Clemente, if only RF can compete

I would swap out Ozzie or Belanger for Maranville, and probably Robinson for Collins.... can't really say on the outfielders so I'll agree with you there.

47. cardsfanboy

posted on December 14, 2012 at 05:50 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

He doesn't qualify because it's restricted to guys who mostly played one position. I think that knocks out Andruw Jones too.

Gotcha, missed that part, and not including Andruw Jones is just silly.

48. Greg (U)K posted on December 14, 2012 at 05:53 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Commentary on this list on "The Score" (Canadian sports channel):

"Rogers Hornsby over Roberto Alomar? It's pretty hard to take this list seriously"

Ah, how I have missed baseball punditry.

EDIT: Whooooops, I thought this was the top 100 players thread.

49. bond1 posted on December 14, 2012 at 06:01 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I guess the inclusion of Barry Bonds means this list is only about fielding ability and not throwing?

50. BDC

posted on December 14, 2012 at 06:25 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

C - Bench
1B- Hernandez
2B - Orlando Hudson
SS - O. Smith
3B - Schmidt
RF - Barfield
CF - Devon White
LF - Rickey

I watched mainly NL in 70's, and Blue Jays in 80's onwards

My list would be similar, because my history of watching the two leagues is also similar. I'd put Ivan Rodriguez at C, Gary Pettis in CF, and (because I spent some time in Michigan in the '70s) Aurelio Rodriguez at 3B, though Schmidt was awfully good, and so is Adrian Beltre. Best LF I ever saw was probably Dave Winfield, with the Yankees in the early '80s. On the whole I don't think LF is much of a fielding position – I saw Rickey make memorable plays there, but I don't think he was a genius or anything, and his arm was so-so. Josh Hamilton is a good LF; most good LFs are CFs or RFs playing out of position.

Aurelio Rodriguez, even if one never saw him play or had his defensive stats, has one of the better "he hit WHAT?" arguments. He hit like a bad shortstop, but held a job at third base for a long time. Michael Humphreys has Rodriguez about 30th all-time, behind lots of guys I saw play, so I'm probably waxing nostalgic as much as anything …

Hernandez, Hudson, Smith, and Barfield, absolutely.

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Wednesday, December 12, 2012

2013 Results: Bonds, Clemens, Piazza and Biggio are elected to the Hall of Merit!

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