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Every player, at every second, thought of PED-use as cheating.
I don't know if I would go quite this far (Jose Canseco, for example, might be the exception that proves the rule), but I don't see how anyone could argue this point. Nobody else openly talked about their steroid usage during their playing career, despite numerous stories every year about what players did to get in the best shape of their lives, etc. Pretty much everyone, when accused of steroid usage, denied it.
That list has him looking up but nipping at the heels of the big 4.
"At the end of the day..."
Because admitting to steroid use would be admitting to a (likely) felony?
That should be all you need to know to understand the defects in WAR for pitchers. There is no way he is in the same breath as the big 4.
He would be a Hall of Famer, if he were not a PED abuser, so I vote no. How do I know he was a PED abuser? He admits was going nowhere until he had a conversation in the weight room with Roger Clemens. What more do you need to know?
It appears that financial shenanigans outside of baseball won't harm Schilling, but why wasn't George Steinbrenner's felony conviction and payments to Howie Spira while an owner enough to keep him off the Executives ballot?
ow difficult is it to simultaneously accept two concepts: (a) steroid users were definitely cheating (as were amphetamine users before them); and (b) MLB was, as ever, knowledgeable and complicit?
That's always seemed relatively obvious to me. And, of course, it wasn't just MLB that was complicit, but the individual teams, the non-juicing players, the media and the fans.
Oh... I see...you are going with Onion argument. My bad for not getting your sarcasm.
What is the evidence on Clemens and Sosa? As far as I can tell, neither has any solid evidence as far as use.
Good question. Maybe JPR can provide us with some of his inside information.
I was not kidding about the Big 4. He is NOT in their class, and if some metric says that he is even close, that metric is flawed.
WAR does not say that Schilling is close to the Big 4. It says he's close to Pedro Martinez and far behind Maddux, Clemens and Johnson.
I never understood that as a society we allowed this to get so out of hand
Schilling is in the next 4, along with Glavine, Smoltz, and Mussina. They should all go in.
Those 4 are overqualified for the HOF. Schilling is in the next 4, along with Glavine, Smoltz, and Mussina. They should all go in.
I really think some of you guys missed the forest from the trees by obsessing over the nipping at the heels comment.
Go back and read the ENTIRE post. Starting from point ONE. I laid out several different criteria, and in ONE of them, Schilling was close behind......and if you actually read the ENTIRE point 2, that point is not talking about total career value. Total career value is addressed in point 1.
The NYT listed Sosa as one of the 2003 positive tests that led to continued testing.
The evidence against Clemens is laid out in the Mitchell report.
Rk Yrs From To Age1 Roger Clemens 11 1986 2005 23-422 Randy Johnson 8 1993 2004 29-403 Pedro Martinez 7 1997 2005 25-334 Curt Schilling 7 1992 2004 25-375 Greg Maddux 7 1992 2000 26-346 Roy Halladay 6 2002 2011 25-347 Roy Oswalt 5 2002 2010 24-328 Kevin Brown 5 1996 2000 31-359 Dave Stieb 5 1982 1990 24-3210 CC Sabathia 4 2007 2011 26-3011 Johan Santana 4 2004 2008 25-2912 David Cone 4 1993 1997 30-3413 Mike Mussina 4 1992 2003 23-3414 Frank Viola 4 1987 1992 27-3215 Mark Langston 4 1987 1993 26-3216 Orel Hershiser 4 1985 1989 26-30
but he doesn't have an extremely high peak, by any measure that measure actual events.
Huh ? Were the 2001, 2002, & 2004 seasons not "actual events" ? What does this even mean. Schilling was a complete stud in each of those seasons, and really was in 2003 as well, but he missed a dozen starts due to appendicitis.
Extreme high peak is 170+ era+ with 230+ or more innings pitched
Rk Yrs From To Age1 Randy Johnson 5 1999 2004 35-402 Lefty Grove 4 1930 1936 30-363 Greg Maddux 3 1993 1998 27-324 Roger Clemens 3 1992 1998 29-355 Dazzy Vance 3 1924 1930 33-396 Felix Hernandez 2 2009 2010 23-247 Tom Seaver 2 1971 1973 26-288 Hal Newhouser 2 1945 1946 24-259 Lefty Gomez 2 1934 1937 25-28
This is setting the bar too high. Pitchers with more than one season meeting those criteria since 1919:
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