And Goose nails it.

Nailed what? His dick to the door?

Given the Hall has already elected known 'cheaters' (not to mention avowed racists and drug addicts), and given it did that prior to Gossage's induction, why did he accept the dishonor of election?

Hypocrite.

“If they elect known cheaters into the Hall of Fame, I am not sure I would go back. It hurts me to even think about it,” Gossage told The Denver Post. “But cheaters should absolutely not be in the Hall of Fame. You are telling me we are going to reward these guys? Are you (expletive) kidding me? What is going on in this world? Right is right. Wrong is wrong.”

...except for Gaylord Perry and Don Drysdale. They're cool.

Is "J.R. Wolf" really "kevin"?

...“If they get in, what does that tell our kids and everybody else? What message does that send?”

That taking steroids is a really good idea.

It's good to know Goose Gossage finally accepts that the greasy cocksuckers with their fucking pens and their fucking tape recorders really WERE worth the fucking shit to do something else: elect Goose Gossage.

Gossage opining on the Hall of Fame's meaning, or potential lack thereof, is like if Bobby Moynihan were to lecture Lorne Michaels about how to cast the next ten seasons of "Saturday Night Live."

Gossage opining on the Hall of Fame's meaning, or potential lack thereof, is like if Bobby Moynihan were to lecture Lorne Michaels about how to cast the next ten seasons of "Saturday Night Live."

Yeah I don't know what the #### he is doing. Just be grateful you are in the hall.

I forgot that Gossage cleared the bar with so much room the spare - almost 86%! There are at least 12 guys on this ballot with as good or better case than Gossage, and none of them can get 70% right now, it looks like.

There are going to be some rule changes and hand-wringing by the shores of Lake Otsego this spring!

Is "J.R. Wolf" really "kevin"?

How can you tell? All he ever says is "[ Ignored Comment ]" Life is better now.

I went to the HOF inductions the year Gossage went in - along with Bowie Kuhn, Walter O'Malley, Barney Dreyfuss, Billy Southworth and Dick Williams.

Only 10,000 to 12,000 people showed up at the ceremony and the town's business people were ticked off.

Yeah I don't know what the #### he is doing. Just be grateful you are in the hall.

Exactly what I was thinking... Seriously dude, you are a reliever, who at no point in your career was one of the 5 best players on your team, and you are talking smack to other players... get off your high horse, be happy you got your sorry ass into the hof and shut the #### up.

I would think also as a guy who didn't make it until his 9th year and then only because it was an incredibly weak ballot would know to just be happy and keep his mouth shut, but Gossage has been airing his perspective on who should and who shouldn't get to join him in the Hall since the moment he was elected.

Seriously dude, you are a reliever, who at no point in your career was one of the 5 best players on your team,

The 1975 White Sox were terrible, while Gossage was having maybe his best season. WAR, which is mostly a joke, has him as the very best player on the team. He probably wasn't that, but he was certainly in the Top Five.

get off your high horse

I'd even be willing to get off his lawn in exchange.

How can you tell? All he ever says is "[ Ignored Comment ]"

That's classic Kevin.

Given the Hall has already elected known 'cheaters' (not to mention avowed racists and drug addicts), and given it did that prior to Gossage's induction, why did he accept the dishonor of election?

Really. How is this not the obvious ####### follow up question?

That taking steroids is a really good idea.

Sportswriters have been telling us that for years.

The 1975 White Sox were terrible, while Gossage was having maybe his best season. WAR, which is mostly a joke, has him as the very best player on the team. He probably wasn't that, but he was certainly in the Top Five.

War for relievers is a massive joke.... Still Gossage did have 140 ip with a 212 era+.... On that team I would say that Kaat and Orta clearly had better seasons, arguably Downing and maybe even Wood.... So yes, I was wrong, he was top five on a weak team.

More of an Artie Ziff, I think; kevin "interacted."

This year's #1-voted Comedy Bang Bang episode was Bobby Moynihan as the orphan Fourvel trying to get adopted by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

Goose has it right. No cheaters in the HOF.

Goose has it right. No cheaters in the HOF.

Way past that point in time...heck I wouldn't be surprised if the number of cheaters in the hof outnumber the non-cheaters.

How can you tell? All he ever says is "[ Ignored Comment ]" Life is better now

Ah, intolerance. Isn't groupthink grand? Isn't it so inconvenient when other people dare to express different opinions and points of view? Why should you have to read stuff like that, anyway? It's just so disturbing.

It's so much more comfortable to just put your head in the sand and only deal with people who think like you do, isn't it?

War for relievers is a massive joke.... Still Gossage did have 140 ip with a 212 era+

I thought it was ERA+ that was untrustworthy for relievers? for example in 1992 Goose had a 132 ERA+, over hs career averages, yet gave up 1.2 HR per 9, and walked 4.5, and had one of the highest WHIPs of his career. Small sample, only 32 innings, but still hard to figure out how not only giving up walks and hits at a high rate, but also HRs, penciled out to a 2.32 ERA.

I guess a the HOF should have a couple relievers, esp. now given the greater importance of the role, but wouldn't Mariano Roboto, Eck, and Smoltz be enough?

Traditionally guys were relievers because they weren't good enough to start, should we have bench position players in the hall too?

Ah, intolerance. Isn't groupthink grand? Isn't it so inconvenient when other people dare to express different opinions and points of view? Why should you have to read stuff like that, anyway? It's just so disturbing.

The part you seemed to have missed is the fact that you don't interact or defend or say anything other than the moronic "No cheaters in the hof".

You haven't bothered to define why steroids is cheating, but spitballing isn't, you haven't defended any argument against how it could be cheating when it wasn't actually against the rules etc.... simply saying "No cheaters" isn't an opinion. It's a parrot.

It's so much more comfortable to just put your head in the sand and only deal with people who think like you do, isn't it?

Is this a trick question? Of course it is.

I thought it was ERA+ that was untrustworthy for relievers? for example in 1992 Goose had a 132 ERA+, over hs career averages, yet gave up 1.2 HR per 9, and walked 4.5, and had one of the highest WHIPs of his career. Small sample, only 32 innings, but still hard to figure out how not only giving up walks and hits at a high rate, but also HRs, penciled out to a 2.32 ERA.

Both are..War gives credence to leverage, so a reliever who posts a 100 era+ over 60 innings is massively more valuable than a starting pitcher who does 100 era+ over 120 innings. It's a silly stat for relievers. Ignore War when it comes to relief pitchers, catchers, first basemen, Dh and utility players. It's perfectly fine in most other situations.

It gives credit for leverage, while not recognizing that replacement level pitchers wouldn't be in that situation. So you get the bonus of usage and another bonus of being compared to pitchers who aren't actually your replacement. The difference between using Gossage in 1975 and the next best available guy isn't 8 wins.

So what's the argument against HOMer Goose Gossage in the HOF? General opposition to RP not named Mo? Not good enough long enough?

Ah, intolerance. Isn't groupthink grand? Isn't it so inconvenient when other people dare to express different opinions and points of view?

This is exactly what I think when I read what the vast majority of baseball columnists when they write about steroids.

So what's the argument against HOMer Goose Gossage in the HOF? General opposition to RP not named Mo? Not good enough long enough?

Not valuable enough. If you have to put 5-10 relievers in the hof, then Gossage clearly belongs, but the problem is that relievers don't belong. They just don't provide enough real value to the team to be worthy. It's like putting in the top 5 Dh's of all time, just because they were DH's. Or top 5 pinch hitters or top 5 utility players. They provide a seasonal value to the team, but they do not provide as much value as an everyday position player or a starting pitcher.

@cardsfanboy: Actually, I have. But if you want it again, here it is. There's two kinds of cheating, inside the lines and outside the lines. Both are bad but inside the line cheating - scuffing, greaseballing, etc. - takes place on the field and can be detected and punished by umps. Cheating outside the lines - taking bribes, betting on games, using PEDs - takes place off the field, is secret, premeditated, deliberate and is designed to subvert the entire game of baseball, and goes generally undetected.

Bribery and gambling and PEDs all work to destroy the basic concept of baseball: that it is a fair game of skill, the outcome of which is to be determined by talent and managerial decisions as impacted by chance. This is why the likes of the Black Sox and Pete Rose and [insert PED user of choice here] should never be enshrined by the game: they all did their best in their own ways to destroy it. Whereas Gaylord Perry, whom I don't approve of either, at least did what he did on the field in plain sight in the context of the game while trying to win games, not in secret in some lab or bookie parlor.

This is exactly what I think when I read what the vast majority of baseball columnists when they write about steroids.

You are surprised that a vast majority are opposed to deliberate cheating? I'm surprised that so many of them are okay with it.

What has really surprised me is that so many people here support PED cheaters. I would not have believed it.

@cardsfanboy: Actually, I have. But if you want it again, here it is. There's two kinds of cheating, inside the lines and outside the lines. Both are bad but inside the line cheating - scuffing, greaseballing, etc. - takes place on the field and can be detected and punished by umps. Cheating outside the lines - taking bribes, betting on games, using PEDs - takes place off the field, is secret, premeditated, deliberate and is designed to subvert the entire game of baseball, and goes generally undetected.

Bribery and gambling and PEDs all work to destroy the basic concept of baseball: that it is a fair game of skill, the outcome of which is to be determined by talent and managerial decisions as impacted by chance. This is why the likes of the Black Sox and Pete Rose and [insert PED user of choice here] should never be enshrined by the game: they all did their best in their own ways to destroy it. Whereas Gaylord Perry, whom I don't approve of either, at least did what he did on the field in plain sight in the context of the game while trying to win games, not in secret in some lab or bookie parlor.

How do you differentiate PED's? Is eating steak, working out, hiring a nutrionalist and taking supplements, using peds? Is amphetimines PED's?(if not, why not?) If they weren't against the rules, how can you legitimately call it cheating?

You are surprised that a vast majority are opposed to deliberate cheating? I'm surprised that so many of them are okay with it.

We are surprised because if it was so obvious, then where in the heck were these guys when it was going on? After all, they have to have been so incompetent at their job to not notice, that for someone to disparage another person's job ethics while being this massively incompetent, is hypocritical in the extreme. They were reporters and didn't report on the issue, because they enjoyed having access to the locker rooms and hanging out with their heroes...now that the worm has turned, they are moralizing? #### them, biggest scumbags(non-lawyer/politic division) on the planet and they have zero room to moralize.

This is why the likes of the Black Sox and Pete Rose and [insert PED user of choice here] should never be enshrined by the game

Didn't you recently give "Great ballot" props to someone who wrote in Rose?

What has really surprised me is that so many people here support PED cheaters. I would not have believed it.

When do you think baseball banned PEDs?

It's so much more comfortable to just put your head in the sand

That is an insult to the sand.

simply saying "No cheaters" isn't an opinion. It's a parrot.

E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!

Mike Parrott used steroids?

Wow, you PED user supporters are amazing. Rationalize much?

Let's see - you support PED users because of legal technicalities and the incompetence of sports journalists?

Sorry, not good enough.

what's the argument against HOMer Goose Gossage in the HOF? General opposition to RP not named Mo? Not good enough long enough?

Because for the first and only time, the Hall of Merit lost its collective mind.

I can understand electing the Willie Randolphs and Bret Saberhagens as a result of setting the HoM at a fixed size. At least those guys were ocmpared against the rest of the eligible baseball population and slipped in, even if it makes the HoM seem a little too large for a lot of folks' liking. But electing a guy who probably was no more valuable than Jack Morris just because he filled a certain role will always seem nutty to me.

Goose got in under the old regime. So did Perez. Jim Ed slid into the Hall Bond-style as the steel door was coming down. Morris is stuck under that very same door, trying to wiggle through. He will be the last one. So have we set the bottom WAR baseline for initial eligibility for entrance into the hall @ 40 yet? What is the number? I highly doubt (outside of a superstar's career ending midway via tragedy) any player ever receives support for induction with a WAR below 40 ever again.

Wow, you PED user supporters are amazing. Rationalize much?

Let's see - you support PED users because of legal technicalities and the incompetence of sports journalists?

Sorry, not good enough.

Not in the slightest. We support coherent arguments. Saying they cheated without defining cheating is not a coherent argument. Regardless of what you claim, you haven't defined why Steroids is cheating but amps isn't.

Present your argument and defend it. That is simple.

How about a Q and A where you answer direct questions so that we can see where you honestly stand.

What is a PED? Why is it cheating, when Amps isn't? Why is it cheating when it wasn't against the rules? Why should the writers be the arbitrators of who goes into the hof, when MLB has addressed the issue and by their own ruling, it's less of a crime (as shown by the punishments) than gambling and that convicted cheaters get a sentence and are allowed back in the game? Why should the writers have any say on morality and ethics, when by any view of their profession as a whole, shows a lack of moral, ethics or competence?

So if Trevor Hoffmann wants to be in the Hall of Merit he has to buy a computer?

Omar Vizquel has 27.6 WAR; Trevor Hoffman 27. I'm not going to guarantee either guy is elected, but I think both are likely.

This one isn't likely, but it's possible Adam Dunn could hit a whole bunch of HR in his career, and he only has 13.8 WAR right now.

I could imagine David Ortiz (36.4) making it, but he probably needs to do a little more, which would probably mean he'd get over 40.

why Steroids is cheating but amps isn't.

I thought we agreed years ago that amps aren't cheating because certain posters' boyhood idols used them, but steroids, being used after posters' 21st birthdays, are

I thought we agreed years ago that amps aren't cheating because certain posters' boyhood idols used them, but steroids, being used after posters' 21st birthdays, are

That is the group think on why it's not cheating, but I've never actually seen anyone claim that as a defense.

Goose got in under the old regime. So did Perez. Jim Ed slid into the Hall Bond-style as the steel door was coming down. Morris is stuck under that very same door, trying to wiggle through. He will be the last one. So have we set the bottom WAR baseline for initial eligibility for entrance into the hall @ 40 yet? What is the number? I highly doubt (outside of a superstar's career ending midway via tragedy) any player ever receives support for induction with a WAR below 40 ever again.

The District Attorney brought in a couple of likely candidates, Vizquel and Hoffman should both get significant support, and I'm not sure that the support is going to be entirely unwarranted.

I thought we agreed years ago that amps aren't cheating because certain posters' boyhood idols used them, but steroids, being used after posters' 21st birthdays, are

Except for Pete Rose. That guy totally belongs in the Hall, because even though he cheated, he was awesome. Also, just because he associated with steroid users and steroid dealers and even had one staying in his house for months at a time didn't mean he used them.

My view, right or wrong, is that "greenies" were a drug that enhanced endurance, the ability to simply get on the field, versus HGH, steroids, which are substances enhancing ability. The question becomes, for me, is endurance (what gets Willie Mays on the field to bat .211 in 1973) vs steroids that built the bulk in his some players and enhanced their core ability, are they the same thing? I think it's a notion worth exploring.

I do feel there is a difference in the two, that modern PEDs, as we know them in the 1990's and early 2000s were against the spirit of the game, and everyone knows they are against the spirit of the game. Was it cheating, the Greg Brady/exact words definition of sports deception? No, of course not, they were not against the rules. It's cheating, fair game. That said, there is an element of "C'mon, bro," at work here. You know what they did, they know they did. Not saying you can keep someone out of the hall because of this, but, as fans, let's not pretend what they did was OK.

To cardsfanboy's point, he may have a good argument that beat writers and journalists who were in the clubhouse when this all went down and didn't want to burn their access may not be the best induction gatekeepers. I think I have a really good sense that these writers knew A LOT more about this than they have spilled. I can't wait to read the beat writer memoirs in 2020 when they can no longer hold down jobs @ ESPN, SI and other outlets about what they saw at the HR revolution.

According to B-R, Vizquel's sits @ 40.5 WAR. He will get some support. Hoffman as well. Both will have a slew of players ahead of them in the queue, I would think. Around this point, we should see guys like Schilling at 60-65%. Hoffman waits a long, long time in my view.

Wow, you PED user supporters are amazing. Rationalize much?

Hey Wolf, way to show those people claiming that you're not interested in a reasonable discussion how wrong they were with your repeated characterizations of anyone who disagrees with you as 'support[ing] PED cheaters'.

My view, right or wrong, is that "greenies" were a drug that enhanced endurance, the ability to simply get on the field, versus HGH, steroids, which are substances enhancing ability.

With all due respect, wrong. There is plenty of evidence that stimulants enhance ability (concentration, focus, etc) rather that just endurance. I also suspect that if used improperly, they could pretty easily compromise, rather than enhance, endurance. And there is absolutely no evidence that hGH enhances anything in terms of athletic performance.

I sympathize with J.R. Wolf. I've offered my views of why IMO greenies and steroids belong in fundamentally different categories to people here on Primer before, and the near-universal blast-you-in-the-face response is "fuck you, I shall now pretend you did not make a colorable distinction because I am emotionally committed to boosting steroid users" or, in the alternate, "yes you've drawn a line, but I disagree with it therefore I deny your right to legitimately feel strongly in a different way."

There is a reasonably 'fascist' element around here when it comes to the PED/steroid controversy, in terms of the pro-steroid super-majority imposing its verbal disdain and "polite society shunning" upon those like me simply because they enjoy this place as a haven where their otherwise ultra-minority view (in the general baseball-fan populace at large) is a commanding majority. Which is why steroid discussions are so goddamned fruitless around here.

BUT: Once more, with feeling, I shall explain why there is to my mind a fundamental difference between greenies (or cocaine, or marijuana, or heroin, or LSD, or alcohol for that matter) and steroids. The former are 'banned' drugs and are cheating per se, but that is not the critical distinction; the critical distinction is that amphetamines do not alter a player's permanent baseline the way steroids do. It's one thing to take a greenie before a game, or alternately drink a shitton of coffee: it brings a person to maximum alertness or focus, but does not increase their muscle mass, or permanently sharpen their reflexes and/or strength and endurance over time. The denominator remains the same. Steroids increase the 'denominator', often far beyond that which would otherwise be possible naturally. The alterations are semi-permanent, affect the body's structure and musculature (rather than just someone's brain or nerve-endings), and are part of a long-term regimen of surreptitious doping.

It is a categorically different form of cheating than either spitballing 'between the lines' of the game (as J.R. Wolf aptly pointed out) or popping a ritalin an hour before gametime.

I'm supremely uninterested in hearing a horde of smug Primates harangue me about why I have to be wrong. No, I'm not -- we simply disagree. And we're not going to convince either one of us. I would like to see Bonds, Clemens, et al. given a lifetime ban from the Hall of Fame, most of you would elect them on the first ballot. We differ. I'm okay with that, I'm not looking down my nose at anyone about it, and I'd appreciate it if others extended the same courtesy to me.

It must be pointed out that Gossage, as a member of the 1991 Rangers, shared a locker room with Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, and Kevin Brown. Clearly there's enough association here to link Gossage to steroid use too.