In his prime, he was the best defensive shortstop in the game. If it hadn't been for the likes of Alex Rodriguez (02-03) and Derek Jeter (04-06), he could have won another two or three Gold Gloves, easily surpassing "The Wizard," who has 12.

This guy cashed a check after turning this article in. There is no justice.

I'll take his overrated stat (Omar has a slightly better career fielding percentage than Ozzie) and raise it - Ozzie's career RF/9 is 5.22. Omar has never had a shortstop season as high as that - and in fact Ozzie averaged over half a successful play per 9 innings more than Omar.

Omar may deserve to make the Hall, but not for the reasons given.

nothing to see here folks--move along

I honestly can't come up with a good reason why a Hall of Fame that includes Jim Rice and Jack Morris shouldn't include Omar Vizquel, too.

I honestly can't come up with a good reason why a Hall of Fame that includes Jim Rice and Jack Morris shouldn't include Omar Vizquel, too.

Agree.

But I also can't come up with a good reason why a Hall of Fame that includes Jim Rice and Jack Morris shouldn't include Jerry Koosman, too.

DB

And Jay Bell.

I honestly can't come up with a good reason why a Hall of Fame that includes Jim Rice and Jack Morris shouldn't include Omar Vizquel, too.

Nobody feared Omar, and he wasn't much of a winner in the postseason, either.

I honestly can't come up with a good reason why a Hall of Fame that includes Jim Rice and Jack Morris shouldn't include Omar Vizquel, too.

Well, Rice won an MVP. And Vizquel did stupid stuff like putting in a strong effort to field grounders even when his team was ahead by 6 runs rather than fielding to the score.

easily surpassing "The Wizard," who has 12.

Ozzie has 13.

Nobody feared Omar, and he wasn't much of a winner in the postseason, either.

People feared him so much that Davey Johnson choked away an ALCS on Omar's missed suicide squeeze.

I thought Morris was not in the HOF. Is he?

I thought Morris was not in the HOF. Is he?

Jack Morris does not sleep. He waits.

This is weird: there are really only two closely comparable careers ever (Aparicio and Maranville), and all three players have the same career OPS+ (82).

All three played on two pennant winners apiece, but the salient difference is that Maranville and Aparicio were often considered crucial to their teams' success. "Award Shares" are a blunt instrument, but Aparicio has 1.24 and Maranville 2.13. Vizquel has 0.01, thanks to what looks like one voter putting him way down one ballot in one year.

Who knows if Aparicio and Maranville really were that important to winning. Voters may well have overrated them. But it's hard to claim that voters underrated Vizquel. When his teams went to the Series, they featured Belle, Lofton, Hershiser, Ramirez, Thome, and a cast of thousands. He was always about the fifth-biggest star at best, on teams that will end up having one prime HOFer (Thome).

I honestly can't come up with a good reason why a Hall of Fame that includes Jim Rice and Jack Morris shouldn't include Omar Vizquel, too.

How about "three wrongs don't make two rights"?

Morris is going in next year. Denial is only going to increase your pain.

Morris is going in next year. Denial is only going to increase your pain.

Vizquel fielded to the score

As explained in great detail in Wizardry: Baseball's All-Time Greatest Fielders Revealed (Oxford University Press 2011), Omar Vizquel was at best a solid shortstop with a couple of genuine Gold Glove seasons. The book estimates he saved only about +60 runs at shortstop. A subsequent WOWY analysis used in a presentation at this years' SABR conference confirmed that estimate. With proper evaluation of his fielding, he was never close to being an MVP-quality player and barely a borderline All-Star quality player for a couple of years. I predict he will get in, but only because the writers still don't consider sabermetric evaluations of players, thirty years after Pete Palmer and Bill James tried to put them on the right path.

If they put Vizquel and Morris in and leave Trammell out I'm going to be pissy.

The F***ing Article is one of the worst I've ever read.

1) You want to compare fielding percentages without making any time adjustments, even though anyone can see that F% has risen steadily over time?

2) You want to compare two shortstop defenses using only F% as your criteria, with a casual mention of Gold Gloves, as if that's been reliable at shortstop recently?

3) In a desperate effort to find some offensive value in Vizquel, you cite only stolen bases?

4) You play the steroid card, since Omar has never been caught, even though his very long career is one of the big symptoms that steroid puritans use as a weapon.

On top of all that, I checked Win Shares (the book), which gives defensive grades to players. Since Win Shares is an old book, it only contains the first several years of Omar's career - the first several, which means, almost certainly, the best several. Defense is, after all, a young man's game. Omar's grade as a young shortstop was B-. That's a terrible grade for an early career for a glove specialist. It's close to Ernie Banks and Arky Vaughn, who were not glove specialists, but were apparently a bit better than Omar anyway, and, of course, outhit him by tons. People like Ozzie Smith, Honus Wagner, Marty Marion, and Rabbit Maranville have grades, for their entire careers, of A or A+. Omar Vizquel has an ordinary ability at shortstop, but not much more.

In short, Omar Vizquel has no business in the Hall, much less on the first ballot. And the author of this article should not be allowed to write about baseball any more. He apparently knows approximately nothing. - Brock Hanke

Geez, Brock, tell us how you really feel.

Because all but two retired men (Pete Rose, Rafael Palmeiro) ahead of Vizquel are currently in the Hall of Fame. Craig Biggio and Derek Jeter are also ahead of him, but they will both be elected to the Hall in their first opportunities.

In which category is Barry Bonds? Using dumb arguments is one thing. Getting simple facts wrong is another.

I eagerly await Placido Polanco's first-ballot HOF induction, as the greatest defensive second baseman and greatest defensive third baseman in MLB history.

The thought of Omar Vizquel being in the HoF makes my head explode. Far more than Rice or Morris or whomever. Whatever their sabermetric merits, Rice and Morris were thought of as great players. No one thought Vizquel was a great player. Ever. Was he ever one of the 5 best shortstops? Aparacio is a comp, but Aparacio was better and was historically notable --the first of a type. And he was a very questionable pick.

Omar finished 16th in the MVP vote in 1999, and never received any votes in any other season. He made 2 all star games. He was never at any point in his career considered a superstar. These "Vizquel for the Hall!" articles are basically coming out of thin air.

His argument (or lack thereof) is similar to Johnny Damon's.

Who is considered the best defensive outfielder of all time? Dwayne Murphy? Willie Mays? Devon White?

Who is considered the best defensive outfielder of all time? Dwayne Murphy? Willie Mays? Devon White?

Mike Trout

Jim Edmonds (highlight division only)

I eagerly await Placido Polanco's first-ballot HOF induction, as the greatest defensive second baseman and greatest defensive third baseman in MLB history.

Actually they will amend the rules so they inaugurate him twice, in back to back years, once for each position.

The next year they will inaugurate Jesse Barfield for best outfield arm and Glenn Hubbard for best job of setting up as the cutoff man and Phil Nevin for best job fielding bunts.

Phil Nevin for best job fielding bunts

Poor Keith can't even get in that way.

Who is considered the best defensive outfielder of all time? Dwayne Murphy? Willie Mays? Devon White?

Narratively speaking, Curt Flood is usually on the short list. Tris Speaker also has a pretty sterling reputation.

I am obliged at this point to mention Andruw Jones, Braves years, particularly the young Andruw.

The next year they will inaugurate Jesse Barfield for best outfield arm and Glenn Hubbard for best job of setting up as the cutoff man and Phil Nevin for best job fielding bunts.

And Mariano Rivera for being the best 1-inning relief-pitcher

*ducks* :)

RE: Retro (#24): It's very hard to tell who the best defensive outfielder ever was. The discussion usually comes down to Speaker, Mays and Flood, although the DiMaggios, Lloyd Waner and Terry Moore have supporters. I tend to drop the two Cardinals, Moore and Flood, because their careers were shortish, and we don't get their entire decline phases. Most math systems have Flood ranked at or very very near the top, but his grade would drop at least a little if he had played five more years (a reasonable estimate). The same thing with Joe D. Great CF, but retired before he had his full decline phase. The other DiMaggios seem to drop out of the discussion somewhere along the line, possibly because they were not better than Terry Moore, who is contemporary, making the comparisons easier than usual. Andruw Jones drives me nuts to try to analyze. What the hell happened to him in mid-career? He looked like a true contender for several years, and then just stopped hitting and fielding, for no good reason that I know of (I'd be delighted to find out that there was an injury or illness or anything that makes sense involved, but I haven't seen such a claim yet). Lloyd Waner usually drops out because his numbers aren't quite as good as Mays', Speaker's and Flood's. His closest contemporary contender is Speaker, and the numbers generally say that he's just not quite as good as Speaker was. I got to see Mays, Flood and Edmonds play, and Jim, while outstanding, didn't knock my socks off like Willie and Curt did.

So, I'd say that it really does come down to Speaker and Mays, unless your system sees so much value in Flood's existing career that no reasonable 5-year decline would drag him down to earth. I have no way of comparing Speaker, in the dead ball era, to Mays, in the 50s and 60s, that generates any real separation between the two. Besides, there is that large factor of time period. Speaker was famous for playing very shallow and running things down that went over his head. I don't know that I'd want to try that in any of those 1960s giant Astroturf parks, like Busch Stadium and Three Rivers, where there is a lot of territory in back of a shallow CF. So, if you made me vote for just one, I'd probably pick Willie, unless you're talking peaks and primes only, in which case Flood is probably the man, depending on just how many Jones years you want to consider in your definition of "prime" and "peak." I have no adequate way to deal with 19th-century players or Negro Leaguers. The early game had a very high rate of change in ballparks, rules and equipment, so even trying to figure out who was the best over a three-year period is very hard. One guy is better under one set of rules; another guy is better two years later, because the rules changed or there were better gloves or something. I also have found no reputation consensus among 19-century observers. You would think that if the period had produced a Speaker or Mays, he have a giant rep. The best rep is probably for Jimmy McAleer (sp?). Negro leaguers have no statistical record that has enough detail to be reliable for CF defense, and reputation is split between at least Oscar Charleston and Cool Papa Bell.

That's the best I can do. - Brock

Was Flood really better than Paul Blair? Darin Erstad seemed just as good as Devon White to me. Garry Maddox, Willie Wilson and Mike Cameron also had sterling reputations. So did Max Carey. How does anyone choose between all these people?

Ivan - You are certainly right about the point you're making - it's just plain impossibly hard to compare all the great glove center fielders in history. However, I got to see Flood and Blair play their entire careers, and got to see the middle and decline phases of Willie Mays (I started going to baseball games in 1954). Blair was certainly great, but Flood and Mays - wow. You almost have to have seen them to get the full impact. Flood was so spectacular that he actually made the cover of Time magazine (possibly the greatest force in media at the time) for a catch he made in Wrigley Field. Some of the visual impact is the wonderful ivy behind Curt, but the real impact is how high he has jumped (not just straight up, but up and towards the ball, which is still in front of him) and how far he has reached to get that baseball. Google it up, if you want to see. It ranks with Mays, 1954, in visual impact. The best CF I saw after Flood (except for the very young Andruw Jones) was Darren Lewis. Lewis couldn't keep a regular job, because he couldn't hit, but he was in the bigs for over a decade because he was SO good with the glove. You can't really count him in the discussion because he played so few games, but that guy could run them down with anyone.

BTW, after I wrote the above post, I did a quick check for 1800s CFs, because McAleer was from the 1890s, and there might be contenders from earlier. There are really, only two earlier candidates who combine A+ math grades and first-rate reputations. One is George Gore, the other is Curt Welch (of the $10,000 slide). If you're trying, for some reason, to figure out gloves in the 19th century, those two and McAleer are your prime suspects. Paul Hines might come up, too. He has a lower math grade (A-), but he also played longer than Gore and Welch, so there's more decline phase in there. Hines did have a top glove rep. One of those three is almost certainly the best CF before McAleer. - Brock

in Smith’s 24 big-league seasons, he only committed a single-digit number of errors four times. Vizquel has done that 13 times.

Yeah, well, I've never made a SINGLE error in the bigs. Maybe I should be the first-balloter.

In terms of sheer number of defensive runs to his credit, Michael Humphreys (#16 above) in Wizardry has Roberto Clemente ahead of any other outfielder. He has Speaker as the CF with the most runs to his credit, but Jones above Speaker thanks to timelining and other adjustments. One imagines that "best outfielder" naturally reduces to "best centerfielder," but Clemente has a case for being so far above average in RF that he should at least be mentioned.

The best CF I ever saw is a guy I still see every time I go to the Ballpark, Rangers first-base coach Gary Pettis. He had miraculous range. I don't think his arm was truly superior, though, and while we mostly marvel at center fielders for their range, a good arm is part of the package. Humphreys ranks Pettis fifth all-time, behind Jones, Mays, Speaker, and Blair.

speaking of CFers, has anyone ever figured out the reason for Ashburn's ungodly PO totals in the early 50s? James brought this up in an early abstract (or maybe the first Historical), and he had no explanation. My god, he was over 500 several times and the highest Mays ever reached was 445.

has anyone ever figured out the reason for Ashburn's ungodly PO totals

Staff that gave up a lot of fly balls, and Ashburn taking lots of discretionary chances, would be the best guess. It doesn't seem likely that there could be other explanations. Ashburn was fast, and a very good fielder, but as you say, nobody's that much faster and better than Willie Mays. James addresses the question in the Win Shares book in more detail as part of the "Hamner/Ashburn" dilemma. Granny Hamner, conversely, had a strong fielding reputation at shortstop but made a miserably low number of plays. The baseball was just going elsewhere.

Edit: Though now that I look at Humphreys's Wizardry, it seems that Ashburn probably wasn't a "ball hog" who took chances away from other outfielders. Humphreys puts Ashburn's huge putout totals squarely on the tendency of his pitching staff to yield fly balls. Incidentally, he has Ashburn as #6 all-time, behind Pettis.

The best CF I ever saw is a guy I still see every time I go to the Ballpark, Rangers first-base coach Gary Pettis. He had miraculous range. I don't think his arm was truly superior, though, and while we mostly marvel at center fielders for their range, a good arm is part of the package. Humphreys ranks Pettis fifth all-time, behind Jones, Mays, Speaker, and Blair.

When I was a kid I thought Pettis and Devon White were incredible.

I remember waning Gary Pettis play center field and thinking he was amazing. Then it turned out it was actually his younger brother.

Gary Maddox deserves credit for the best description.

I thought Dom was considered a better fielder than Joe? Or was that just delusional Sox fans?

I've only been seriously watching baseball since '98, I think the best long-career CF I've seen in that time is Cameron. Other guys might pick it better but they didn't last or couldn't hit enough to play full-time, like Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez.

Just to pile on, Ozzie Smith led the league in fielding percentage 8 times, Vizquel did it 6 times. They both finished in the top four 16 times. So even if you think fielding percentage is the end-all-be-all of statistics, you can't really argue that Vizquel was obviously better than Ozzie without completely ignoring league context.

Glad to hear the Pettis love. Growing up in the 80s, I wanted to be a CFer, and Pettis was one of the guys I marveled at.

I thought the 1950s Phillies staff was not only a flyball staff but low strikeout, giving Ashburn a huge number of opportunities.

I thought Dom was considered a better fielder than Joe? Or was that just delusional Sox fans?

That's not just Sox fans. It's probably everybody except Yankee fans.

That's not just Sox fans. It's probably everybody except Yankee fans.

I always heard Dom was viewed as better, but Joe's reputation is much better than the BRef stats give him credit for.

By reputation, you'd expect Joe to be +10-15 rField, and Dom to be +15-20.

Didn't some old-timers say Vince was actually the great fielder in the family?

Didn't some old-timers say Vince was actually the great fielder in the family?

Charles Einstein said that as a throwaway line in Willie's Time

If you guys can pick the best out of Pettis, White, Dw. Murphy, Andruw Jones, Mike Cameron, etc. you have better eyes than I do. I think I'm pretty good at lumping guys into a class--great, good, bad, terrible--but I can't pretend to really split hairs between players within each class.

I thought the 1950s Phillies staff was not only a flyball staff but low strikeout, giving Ashburn a huge number of opportunities.

It was also a field with a huge CF (447'), so a fleet CF might get extras that way too. I had his baseball card but never saw him play.

I eagerly await Placido Polanco's first-ballot HOF induction, as the greatest defensive second baseman and greatest defensive third baseman in MLB history.

He is also the career leader in awesome name