Tuesday, May 21, 2013
JM Catellier: Is Pedro Martinez a First Ballot Hall of Famer?
(www.rantsports.com)
Welcome back, JM Catellier…and his “own unique statistical formula”!
Read More...The average 20th century Hall of Fame starting pitcher has 258.3 career wins. That number is dragged down by Sandy Koufax’ 165 victories, but he can’t be omitted from this exercise as I consider him the best starting pitcher to ever throw a baseball.
Former Boston Red Sox ace Pedro Martinez retired following the 2009 season with just 219 wins and only two 20-win seasons. Is it possible that he’s a first ballot Hall of ...
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
Page 1 of 4 pages
1 2 3 4 >There's someone here who needs to get his blood pressure checked, and it may not be the people he's thinking of.
Nah, Ray Ratto's been trolling since before the internet was a thing (well, maybe not the DARPA proto-internet, but the popular, public version). At this point, he's not really a sportswriter so much as a snark machine that uses sports as a cover.
Given those formal established criteria, only a fool or an idiot could cast a vote for a known PED user.
Or, alternatively, only a fool could believe that criterion (which Bill James believes was cooked up by Landis in an attempt to get an undeserving war hero in the Hall) ever meant much of anything until it was dragged howling from the vaults within the last few years.
I say any player who wasn't willing to risk their health to help the team win doesn't deserve a vote
Please be a real word.
In your judgement, with the best information you have as FACTS (this may quite limited), would this player have been a HOF'er without the PEDs?
Barry Bonds was a HOF way before he beefed up nd started hitting massive numbers of HRs. Clemens was a HOFer by the time he left Boston. There is no evidence that Bagwell used anything, except that he was crazy-jacked.
Now, McGwire: I just don't think he's anywhere near his career HR totals without the help. And he's definitely not a HOFer without the PEDs. He wouldn't get my vote.
It's a judgement call, to be sure - but in my opinion, if he's a HOFer, even after the deduction for the drugs, then you vote him in.
Once you leave them out, you're just saying that those permanently banned from MLB aren't eligible for baseball's greatest honor. Nothing more, nothing less.
If the HoF thought this analogy was relevant, they would have banned Clemens, Bonds, et al from the ballot. They did not. "Known" PED users are eligible for the HoF. 'nuff said.
EDIT: And MLB would have banned McGwire from association with baseball (Cards now Dodgers hitting coach).
50-50; or is it just a minority that will vote to keep Clemmens and Bonds on the sideline?
The post that implicitly confirms charges of trolling while explicitly disputing them is, when executed properly, always a thing of beauty.
The concept that gambling is a threat to the integrity of the game but cheating somehow is not is mind-boggling.
50-50; or is it just a minority that will vote to keep Clemmens and Bonds on the sideline?
Just got a few west coast partial ballots in...and it now stands at 83 anti-Bonds/Clemens and 63 pro-Bonds/Clemens.
If you ain't cheatin', you ain't competin'
Your mind must be easily boggled.
Unless you're playing golf.
Phil Neikro
Gaylord Perry
Paul Molitor
Kirby Puckett
Tris Speaker
Ty Cobb
Mickey Mantle
...and basically everyone else who played in the 60's and 70's when there were bowls of amphetamines in every clubhouse.
I think about a third of the voters are "true believers" and will vote against all PED users.
I find it interesting that the Veterans' Committee is voting on the "pre-integration era" this year. The situations are not entirely similar and of course the voters are different but it certainly makes it tough to take the integrity clause seriously if an integration era owner like Jacob Ruppert is inducted while a Bagwell or a Piazza gets kept out. As I said, I realize there are differences but it does highlight the inconsistencies at work.
The day they boot Hank Aaron and Willie Mays out is the day they can deny Barry Bonds entry with any sort of intellectual honesty.
Yep.
Actually, no. For them to be cheating, their use would have to be contrary to the principles and spirit of fair play and fair competition, whether or not MLB had gotten around to codifying those principles.
And you know when that happens, because SugarBear shows up at your house in a ghostly visage, wrapped in chains.
Nah, most people don't need that and are doing pretty well without it.
Wouldn't something like this reflect more negatively on managers and ownership than the players themselves?
Didn't nobody shove greenies down the Hammer's throat, man.
Are you suggesting that managers and managment were by and large totally oblvious to the presence of steroids when Mark, Sammy and Barry were averaging 60 homers a year? All of it reflects negatively on the entire sport, but both were an integral part of the game for extended periods. Unless you want to ban entire generations of ballplayers from the HOF, which is what you'd have to do for Greenie-era players to justify the treatment that Bonds et. al. are receiving, I don't think we can complain about steroid use or the suspicion thereof, prior to the implentation of testing.
The writers have rightly concluded that greenie use was more akin to caffeine or Red Bull use and, accordingly, not contrary to the principles and spirit of fair play and fair competition. It's easy to see why -- they were available to everyone openly, cheap, easy to get, didn't have much impact, and what little impact they had dissipated quickly.
The players have never really acted as if roids accorded with the principles and spirit of fair play and fair competition -- thus the furtive, hidden use, and the lies when caught. The writers aren't doing much more than channeling those actions.
So is allowing PED dealers free access to the clubhouse and walking glibly past players juicing up in the bathroom stalls. MLB did not merely tolerate PED use until 2003. They facilitated and promoted it.
I wonder if he knows Eddie A.
Well, if the Lord and Sundry Writers of Moral Rectitude have so decreed, who are we hoi polloi to speak against them with our heresies?
Anyone who would fail to vote for the third best player in MLB history for the HOF because he used "The Clear" to recover quickly from workouts is a complete ####### idiot.
And the people that did that, including Bud Selig, shouldn't be inducted into the HOF. I'd concur that the promoters of the circus are as or more culpable than the circus performers, which is why I'd vote for Barry Bonds.
Or better yet just stop talking about steroids.
You have spoken, and your position has received a hearing. It just hasn't convinced many people.
Don't forget the circus-goers! I was a pre-teen/early teenager during the "steroid era" and it seemed pretty obvious something was up, and that baseball fans in general weren't too bothered about it. Or at least, didn't feel the need to put much thought into it.
No one comes out of that smelling of roses. My only real concern is player's health. If this new environment of testing allows players to not feel like they need to sacrifice their health to keep their job then I say bravo. I don't really see the value in recriminations. (As this is an old conversation I'll note that other people do. I don't think that's an unreasonable position, just not one I share).
It's convinced plenty of people, just not the majority of the Politburo.
As long as this conversation is rehashed every year - and it will be rehashed every year until the writers pull the sticks out of their asses and vote the deserving players from the 90s and 2000s into the damned HOF - greenies will be mentioned. Because the fact that disagree with the comparison doesn't make the comparison invalid.
Page 1 of 4 pages
1 2 3 4 >You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.