I'm going to think this over, but Jim Presley's playing third.

der k

a worthy choice.

hence my pick of wes helms who was an abomination in a brewer uniform and a disgrace to his profession

In that case, surprised you didn't go with Johnny Estrada in your catcher spot. Though maybe his noxiousness was more of the "off the field" variety.

As someone unfamiliar with Brian Harper, what was so aggravating about him?

I could easily come up with an all-Nationals version of your list, Harveys.

The leaderboard is pretty interesting, too. It's something of a proxy for "recent pitchers who were better than you might have remembered."

The Cubs have signed pitchers #4 and 6 on the list this offseason.

Wait, what?!?! You disliked Munson, Andy?? I don't think I've ever heard a Yankee fan say that.

I didn't like Munson for the same reason I never like Bill Cowher when all I knew about him was watching him on the sidelines arguing with the refs on every ####### play, with his ugly jaw sticking out about a foot over the sideline marker. A little bit too Travis Bickle-like for my taste, though if like Cowher he'd lived and become a commentator, I might have changed my mind about him, too. It wasn't Munson's redass style of playing, which I liked, it was that permanent chip-on-his-shoulder look.

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andy

you don't remember the early 70's indians? ugliest starting pitchers with one guy known as a greaser and the other who gained fame for his nickname of 'dirt'. you had all kinds of creepy looking guys like frank duffy as starters to bench players like john lowenstein.

then they had guys like chris chambliss who weren't creepy as much as eerie since chambliss never seemed to make a facial expression.

early 70's indians were a spooky team

Could be, but they were also so bad that they've totally slipped my memory. And anyway, no team with Whitey Herzog, Juaquin Andujar, Vince Coleman, Jack Clark and John TOO-dah (the worst of the bunch) can ever be matched for overall creepiness.

Matsusaka could be fun to watch, simply because he had more overall skill than Trachsel. He could really pitch.

But that's what was so frustrating. At times his stuff was just unhittable, yet he still refused to challenge hitters. He'd just nibble at the corners. Now I understand doing this without your best stuff, but when you are throwing well you just need to come after hitters and try to gobble up 7-8 innings easy. The guy was a pen's worst nightmare, always needing at least 10 more outs to win the game.

My least favourite quality in a hitter is a guy who swings at the low and away breaking-ball. To be fair, everyone swings at that pitch at some point, but the guys who always do it drive me nuts. Unless it's Alfonso Soriano v. Pedro Martiez in the 2003 ALCS. Then it's fun.

I actually have predominately positive feelings about Vernon Wells, but he tended towards this (and even had a little dance in the batters box when he knew he swung at a bad pitch), and another annoying trait - infield pop ups.

test

My least favourite quality in a hitter is a guy who swings at the low and away breaking-ball.

That describes nearly every at bat in Shawn Dunston's career, I'm not sure why any pitcher ever threw him a strike. To be fair, I remember Dunston as a player who hustled all the time, so he gets points for that in my book. Also, one night in Cincinnati after a Cubs-Reds game, we ran into Dunston in the lobby of the hotel; he spent at least 15 minutes talking to us and answering questions. No, I didn't ask him why he swang at sliders in the dirt.

not to diverge in another direction but i love 'teams' and now i am wondering what is the team of least favorite players to watch play?

So is this 'most hated' or 'least favorite to watch play'?

My team would have some crossover -- Garvey plays 1B on both, but in other instances I would probably have different players... Neifi is probably SS on my most hated, but he was a perfectly smooth SS so I'd probably go with something more like say, Jeff Blauser at SS on least favorite to watch play.

I disagree with Harvey's choice of Ron Hunt. Before Hunt went to the Expose (or was it Dodgers) and became Ron "The Human Target" Hunt, he was a reasonably exciting 2B who hit well and stole some bases. Heck he was the only All-star for our Mets one year.
I can think of several outfielders who, while exciting at the plate, were root canals in the field: Raul Ibanez LF, Mickey Rivers CF, Gary Sheffield RF.

zonk

not hated. just didn't enjoy watching the guy play

depletion:

he was pretty much the old version of jason kendall by age 28. and i don't know where the stolen bases thing comes from because hunt was a terrible baserunner. his career high in stolen bases was 10 and he barely broke even in his career success rate.

he poked at the baseball while at the plate, wasn't any good on the double play and was just excruciating to watch especially once he joined the giants.

blech

depletion

by the way, not looking for a fight here. it's just opinion.

Well, I was like 9 and 10 at the time. And it was 45 years ago. What was the question?

I'm taking it as the latter, zonk - which makes this a bit tougher to answer ... particular if I try to remove fandom from the equation. Do I want to pick Rafael Ramirez because I grew up hating that he was on my team? At least with Presley I felt that way before he was a Brave. (Oh, and I totally get your Helms pick, HW.)

I don't mind weird mannerisms or super patient hitters. Nibblers are boring in person, but am okay with that on TV. I seem to have issues with nepotism, but those guys tend not to make the bigs + that's kind of a different question.

Delmon Young is frustrating to watch.

My least favorite Met to watch was Todd Zeile the second time, when he came back and the team gave him all sort of preferential treatment like he'd been a team hero and guy who'd played with them for a few decades instead of two middling seasons.

OK, least favorite to watch play...

C Scott Servais
1B Steve Garvey
2B Ken Oberkfell
SS Jeff Blauser
3B Steve Buechele
LF Luis Gonzalez
CF Brian L Hunter
RF Jeromy Burnitz
SP Steve Tracshel


Servais had a stellar half season of slugging about .600 -- then was just a dreadful disappointment for another 5... Garvey always makes and captains any 'least/most hated/etc' team. Oberkfell was perhaps the most boring player in the history of baseball players, I suppose he walked a bit, but he had no power, no speed, and well, just boring to tears. Jeff Blauser killed the Cubs as a Brave, then sucked when he became a Cub - he's probably my least favorite player ever to watch play. Steve Buechele always seemed awkward playing. Luis Gonzalez was another extraordinarily boring player - until he, uhhh... got really good for a brief period in AZ and then just became infuriating in a reverse-Blauser sort of way. Brian Hunter was an annoying base stealer who didn't do much else. Jeromy Burnitz was mildly annoying when he wasn't a Cub; a complete moron as a Cub. I don't generally mind pitchers who work slowly - but Tracshel took it to a whole different level and I just hated watching him pitch.

zonk

great team. oberkfell was a really drab player. boo, hiss.

FWIW, I could fill an entire staff -- with ease -- with Cubs pitchers that I hated to watch pitch...

SP Tracshel
SP Jose Guzman
SP Dick Ruthven
SP Ismael Valdez
SP Ruben Quevedo
RP Goose Gossage
RP LaTroy Hawkins
RP Rick Aguilera
RP Felix Heredia
RP Jay Baller
RP Matt Karchner
CL Lee Smith

Guzman walked too many people, Ruthven was serving up BP by the time he became a Cub, Valdez was a tin man who nibbled like crazy, Quevedo existed to give up HRs and walk people. Gossage was awful as a Cub - Ditto Hawkins and Aguilera... The Run Fairy probably makes the lest favorite team of every fan who got to see him wearing the home uni... Jay Baller was at one time, a Cub 'closer of the future' who was dreadful, Karchner reminded me of Garland every time he pitched -- and then he was awful when he pitched. Despite the numbers, I never liked watching Smith pitch as disaster always seemed a moment away.

I never liked Todd Hundley for some reason.

FWIW, I could fill an entire staff -- with ease -- with Cubs pitchers that I hated to watch pitch...

Frank Castillo ... Shawn Estes ...

zonk

great team. oberkfell was a really drab player. boo, hiss.

In roto circles, Oberkfell had the nickname "5-0-1-0" for his typically boring batting line... which usually consisted of a meaningless single and nothing else.

On the other hand, whereas Trachsel was slow between pitches, I don't think he had quite the combination of working very slowly and nibbling to the point of madness, which made Matsusaka at his worst the most godawful pitcher I've had the misfortune of seeing play.

This. He would often pitch every guy in the other team's lineup as if they were the second coming of Babe Ruth. Throw in the slow pace and it was like someone slowly dragging a fork across a chalkboard.

1b: adam laroche/dick stuart
2b: ron hunt
ss: rafael ramirez
3b: wes helms
c: brian harper
lf: greg luzinski
cf: alex sanchez
rf: dante bichette

Someone didn't like the SuperStation.

I always rooted for the great Dice-K to reemerge at some point but he never did. The games against that MCOA were certainly memorable for me, as were his 10-K debut against KC and his 5 IP in game 7 of the 2007 ALCS. His quote before the game was classic--something like "I am not sure how you say it, here in America, but it is on."

To a large extent, 'least favorite to watch play' depends on your mode of watching, too...

I mean -- do you cringe watching Bichette/Luzinski/Skates Smtih/etc -- or, do you chuckle at the comedy?

I suppose it depends on context... if you have a rooting interest, you're cringing... if you're watching a pennant race/late season/playoff game and just want to watch good baseball, I suppose you're cringing, too...

But - a late May weekend game? It can be entertaining comic relief to watch the Bull huffing and puffing, rolling around in an OF corner.

The worst hitters to watch are the ones who

A) Don't hit homers
B) Don't run fast
C) Walk all the time
D) Strike out looking all the time

So, therefore, a reasonable formula for BoreFactor might be something as simple as: K+BB-(HR*11)-(SB*14)+CS. This would allow 25 HR or 20 steals to wash away the boring-ness of 175 K and 100 walks

Career Leaders:

Dal Maxville 755
Dave Magadan 659
Max Bishop 602
Wade Boggs 558
Dick Shcofield 546

Opposite:

Rickey Henderson -1873
Lou Brock -1197
Barry Bonds -1134
Tim Raines -1074
Joe Morgan -955

Maybe we should weight strikeout more heavy than walk?

So, therefore, a reasonable formula for BoreFactor might be something as simple as: K+BB-(HR*11)-(SB*14)+CS. This would allow 25 HR or 20 steals to wash away the boring-ness of 175 K and 100 walks

Career Leaders:

Dal Maxville 755
Dave Magadan 659
Max Bishop 602
Wade Boggs 558
Dick Shcofield 546

Opposite:

Rickey Henderson -1873
Lou Brock -1197
Barry Bonds -1134
Tim Raines -1074
Joe Morgan -955

Maybe we should weight strikeout more heavy than walk?

That's really good!

Boggs is an obviously outlier -- I suppose he could be very 'boring' to watch hit to some extent; though, I'd give him a pass because some guys in this category are just pure 'technicians' and it's fun to watch them work an AB in the same way it's fun to watch Maddux work a hitter.

This formula looks very close to me -- Schofield and Magadan would definitely be in the "geez, not this guy" category... while the inverse list is absolutely a great list of the opposite.

I think the K weighting is the way to go -- we need to find a way to get Boggs off that list...

I loved watching Magadan hit. If you like Boggs, you should like Magadan.

I loved watching Magadan hit. If you like Boggs, you should like Magadan.

Isn't that a bit like saying "If like the Beatles - you should enjoy the Monkees or if you like Dylan, you'll love this Donovan guy!"

You're thinking along the right lines there, Shock. Dave Magadan is exactly the definition of the low-risk low-reward hitter. However he walked much more than he struck out! You would not get a sense of futility watching him take pitch after pitch.

Another one who came to mind was Mark McLemore. But he had speed on his side. But on the other hand, he also got caught stealing a lot.

Ron Hunt. Before Hunt went to the Expose (or was it Dodgers) and became Ron "The Human Target" Hunt

We used to play the 1971 Sports Illustrated dice game. The most common number to roll was "34". Hunt was the only player ever to have this for his "hit by pitch" outcome.

What's wrong with the Monkees?

Dal Maxvill 755

Story I heard about Maxvill: He hit an over-the-fence home run in St. Louis. (That should be traceable - maybe only happened once in his career?) As he got back to the dugout, some teammate - Shannon or Maris or someone - went into Harry Caray's home run shtick: "Way back! It might be! It could be! It couldn't be! It couldn't be!"

I've tweaked it a bit. It's challenging to come up with a list of tough-to-watch hitters without it just being a list of really bad hitters.

Here is my amendment: K*3 + BB + CS - HR*18 - SB*18

Top 5 by BoreFactor:

1. Dal Maxville 1761 (nothing I do gets this guy off the top.)
2. Jim Sundberg 1555
3. Bobby Knoop 1525
4. Paul Bako 1505
5. Dave Magadan 1413
6. Dick Schofield 1403
7. Ed Brinkman 1394
8. Mike Matheny 1315
9. Jerry Grote 1250
10. Pete Runnels 1128

Worst seasons to watch

1. Adam Dunn 2011 (duh)
2. Bobby Knoop 1968
3. Roy Smalley 1976
4. Jose Hernandez 2003
5. Ray Oyler 1967

I toyed around with dividing by batting average, which worked really well for driving down the Boggs/Gwynn types without making a significant difference to most, but the problem is that this formula will go into the negatives, where dividing will have the reverse effect. so I'd have to add like 100,000 or something stupid to keep the numbers positive. Not that this isn't already stupid and pointless! I love doing this stuff though. I added it to my stat finder site as well and might play with some other formulations. :)