I have a weird feeling the Marlins will win more games than the Blue Jays in 2013.

Yes. What's he take home at the end of a hard day of grafting and crying poor?

I assume it's a pretty similar amount to that of all the other teams who recently whined their way to a publicly funded new stadium.

What a curious assumption.

I have a weird feeling the Marlins will win more games than the Blue Jays in 2013.

This is insanity.

What a curious assumption.

Yeah, I would assume Young Masters Steinbrenner make a lot more money every year than Loria.

And at least Loria has to work to keep his grift going; YMS have just been handed everything they've ever gotten in life.

This is insanity.

I learned this year to never be too sure in your assumptions. Back in March, I told a friend I'd give him a gold watch if the Jays won more games than the Red Sox. If you'd told me then that they Jays were about to have their worst season since 2004, I'd have thrown in a gold necklace and earrings for his wife. Then the 2012 season happened.

Yeah, I would assume Young Masters Steinbrenner make a lot more money every year than Loria.

You'd like to think running a popular, successful, iconic franchise would be more rewarding that running a welfare scheme in the same business, but all we seem to have is assumptions, yes?

And at least Loria has to work to keep his grift going

Sucking up to Bud Selig may be many things, but I doubt it qualifies as work.

YMS have just been handed everything they've ever gotten in life.

I don't think you really want to defend the welfare Marlins on the basis of who is beholden to unearned handouts. If you'd like to talk about how much of a refund the Yankees are entitled to from the years prior to Mr. Steinbrenner's sad demise I might be willing to accept your sincerity on the topic.

You'd like to think <strikethrough>running</strikethrough> being given a popular, successful, iconic franchise would be more rewarding

FTFY.

If you'd like to talk about how much of a refund the Yankees are entitled to from the years prior to Mr. Steinbrenner's sad demise I might be willing to accept your sincerity on the topic.

The Yankees are entitled to a refund of whatever Mr. Steinbrenner didn't freely agree to share with his business partners.

Back in March, I told a friend I'd give him a gold watch if the Jays won more games than the Red Sox.

That was your first mistake, the Red Sox are really good at handing out watches.

I have a weird feeling the Marlins will win more games than the Blue Jays in 2013.

I'm not willing to go that far but I think there is a good chance the Jays are still fourth in the east. Reyes and Johnson are injury risks and Buehrle is a mid 30s soft tosser with a low k rate. There is every reason to believe this trade will improve Toronto but I'm not sold. The cost was minimal enough that I wish my Red Sox had done it but I wouldn't be stashing playoff ticket money if they had and I don't think the Jays should be either.

The Yankees are entitled to a refund of whatever Mr. Steinbrenner didn't freely agree to share with his business partners.

Actually, wasn't Steinbrenner the only owner to vote against revenue sharing?

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but: anyone have any thoughts on how Reyes might fare playing half his games on turf? Seems a little dicey for a guy with a history of leg problems.

Well played Voros!

I'm not willing to go that far but I think there is a good chance the Jays are still fourth in the east. Reyes and Johnson are injury risks and Buehrle is a mid 30s soft tosser with a low k rate. There is every reason to believe this trade will improve Toronto but I'm not sold.

You can question the trade, but the idea that it won't improve the Jays seems a bit nuts. Johnson and Buehrle are taking the rotation spots of Henderson Alvarez and Aaron Laffey. They will outperform those guys.

The ultimate workhorse Mark Buehrle joins a team that averages 7.5 season-ending starting pitcher injuries per year. Something's gotta give.

You can question the trade, but the idea that it won't improve the Jays seems a bit nuts. Johnson and Buehrle are taking the rotation spots of Henderson Alvarez and Aaron Laffey. They will outperform those guys.

Yeah I worded that badly. It will improve them but I don't think it's a slam dunk to vault them into contention.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say the Jays were the MLB version of the Lakers, getting sucker deals constantly thrown their way. The Jays are in a good situation in that they can expand payroll (as they now have!), so they can probe for these kinds of deals -- most small market teams can't even go there.

Yeah I worded that badly. It will improve them but I don't think it's a slam dunk to vault them into contention.

Agreed. But the wreckage that was 2012 left the team in a weird position-- they had some surprise good years, balanced by a boatload of bad breaks. So many things went poorly that I'd forgotten all about the Santos injury.

Anyone want to give a quick capsule summary on why Romero imploded?

they had some surprise good years

One. They had one surprise good year: Encarnacion. Well, I guess you could argue for Janssen, even if what he did was more a function of his role than of a big improvement.

Romero was pitching through pain all year, it turns out. He denied it at the time but just recently had some kind of surgery to clean out his elbow. There had also been some speculation that his changeup had gotten too good, to the point where nobody would swing at it, and that cramped his style. If you don't like either of those as explanations, I can't help you, because nobody's come up with anything else. There is room for some optimism that he'll be his old self in 2013. But who knows.

Thanks for the summary-- sounds like room for optimism. No where to go but up after a year like that...

Romero was pitching through pain all year, it turns out. He denied it at the time but just recently had some kind of surgery to clean out his elbow.

I hadn't heard that one. If true that doesn't make me like Romero very much. You would have figured at some point during the six straight months of sucking and frenzied attempts to figure out what was wrong he would have come clean.

I'm hopeful about 2013 now, but that's as far as I'm willing to go. If they can stay healthy, which is a huge if, they'll be a great team.

Weird, reports that the Jays checked on Bobby Cox's availability to manage.

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but: anyone have any thoughts on how Reyes might fare playing half his games on turf? Seems a little dicey for a guy with a history of leg problems.

Reyes' leg problems were muscular, not joints or ligaments/tendons as I recall. Early on he had reoccuring hamstring problems, then the big one was a calf strain.

Thanks for the free stadium, suckers!!!

Yeah I think the "contenders" word being bandied about on the internet may be a bit presumptuous, but there's room for optimism. I'd phrase it as, I can envision a scenario in which the Jays are competitive in 2013. That wasn't true 48 hours ago.

Doesn't this #### the Athletics chances of landing a new stadium? What city would ever trust a team ever again? Bud should act in the best interests of the game on that point alone.

In Selig fashion, he'll probably let the Oakland owners take over the Miami franchise and MLB will operate the A's until they can find a legislative body full of suckers.

Reyes' leg problems were muscular, not joints or ligaments/tendons as I recall. Early on he had reoccuring hamstring problems, then the big one was a calf strain.

Would it be a really big deal anyway? The Jays switched to more modern types of artificial turf years ago.

You would have figured at some point during the six straight months of sucking and frenzied attempts to figure out what was wrong he would have come clean.

Yeah. Not to take any of the responsibility away from him, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Jays had expressed a preference that Romero power through it since they had just about run out of starting pitchers at one point.

The Selig bashing is overkill. He has no obligation to do anything other than what's best for his business. If the people and government of Miami and other locales where MLB is asking for public funding don't read the reams of data demonstrating what a bad idea it is that's on them, not on Selig.

Weird, reports that the Jays checked on Bobby Cox's availability to manage.

I don't know, I think that sounds like a pretty good idea.

I don't know, I think that sounds like a pretty good idea.

Oh yeah, I agree, and it certainly can't hurt to check. It just never would have occurred to me to ask.

The Selig bashing is overkill. He has no obligation to do anything other than what's best for his business. If the people and government of Miami and other locales where MLB is asking for public funding don't read the reams of data demonstrating what a bad idea it is that's on them, not on Selig.

His replacement is going to look at the NBA, NFL and NHL and start thinking salary cap and we're going to lose a season, so I hope Selig reigns forever.

Which seems quite possible. How long-lived are Skeksis?

The Selig bashing is overkill. He has no obligation to do anything other than what's best for his business. If the people and government of Miami and other locales where MLB is asking for public funding don't read the reams of data demonstrating what a bad idea it is that's on them, not on Selig.

But if he, or his people, are involved in bribing those government decision-makers, it is on him.

What with Roy Hartsfield and Bobby Mattick no longer of this world, Cox was deemed the next best thing for 2013's "Flashback Fridays"?

[221] is where I'm at, too. It's November. Things will change between now and when the games actually get played.

The Selig bashing is overkill. He has no obligation to do anything other than what's best for his business. If the people and government of Miami and other locales where MLB is asking for public funding don't read the reams of data demonstrating what a bad idea it is that's on them, not on Selig.

This is true on face value. However, they are in the entertainment business, where public perception is very important. Just as baseball personnel are forbidden to bet on games, lest the apparant integrity of the game is diminished, similarly if team owners stack the roster with A-ballers just to put a nominal team on the field and collect revenue sharing, it gives the public perception that MLB teams are not good community partners. Your point that the public officials are to blame is true; Bridge to Nowhere, Solyidra, Marlins Stadium... it just never ends.
I actually think the Marlins will be good again in 2 years or so. Every time they've had fire sales in the past it hasn't taken very long for them to improve.

The Selig bashing is overkill. He has no obligation to do anything other than what's best for his business. If the people and government of Miami and other locales where MLB is asking for public funding don't read the reams of data demonstrating what a bad idea it is that's on them, not on Selig.

This is partly true. Selig and Loria are in the 1% because they've mastered the art of taking the 99%'s money and making it theirs. I guess if the 99% is just going to sit there and let it happen, there isn't much that can be done about it, but at some point somebody needs to shake some sense into people.

Two-point-four billion in debt for Jeffrey Loria's and Bud Selig's private business? What possibly could have convinced you this was a good idea? Wake the #### up, people.

Wake the #### up.

[167]: You can fudge the numbers all you like. For one, in Loria's first year, the Marlins only won 79 games. It wasn't till his second year that they won 91 games and the WS. Weird way for holdover effect to manifest itself, eh?

2003 Marlins had six players record more than 1.0 bbref batting WAR (the next two guys on the list included as a bonus):
Luis Castillo 4.2 - Amateur FA signed 1992
Ivan Rodriguez 4.2 - FA signed Jan 2003
Juan Pierre 3.4 - Acquired via trade w Rockies Nov 2002
Derrek Lee 2.6 - Acquired via trade w Padres Dec 1997
Mike Lowell 2.5 - Acquired via trade w Yankees Feb 1999
Alex Gonzalez 1.1 - Amateur FA signed 1994
Jeff Conine 0.8 - Acquired via trade w Orioles Aug 2003 (midseason acquisition)
Miguel Cabrera 0.5 - Amateur FA signed 1999

2003 Marlins had eight players record 1.0 or more bbref pitching WAR:
Dontrelle Willis 3.7 - Acquired via trade w Cubs Mar 2002
Josh Beckett 3.6 - Acquired via Amateur draft (1st round) 1999
Mark Redman 3.6 - Acquired via trade w Tigers Jan 2003
Brad Penny 2.6 - Acquired via trade w D'Backs July 1999
Carl Pavano 2.1 - Acquired via trade w Expos Jul 2002
Ugueth Urbina 2.0 - Acquired via trade w Rangers Jul 2003 (midseason acquisition) (Adrian Gonzalez deal)
Braden Looper 1.1 - Acquired via trade w Cardinals Dec 1998
Chad Fox 1.0 - FA signed Aug 2003 (midseason signing, released by Red Sox Jul 30)

So, 16 most valuable players to that year's team, 39 WAR, give or take. 20.8 acquired during Loria's tenure.

Thought I'd take a look. Sorry for the poor methodology.

Who cheated baseball fans more? Jeffrey Loria, or Pete Rose?

Not even close.

Wake the #### up, people. Wake the #### up.

Two-point-four billion in debt for Jeffrey Loria's and Bud Selig's private business? What possibly could have convinced you this was a good idea? Wake the #### up, people.

Wake the #### up.

Careful, SBB, you're treading dangerously close to getting accused of wearing a tinfoil hat.

Two-point-four billion in debt for Jeffrey Loria's and Bud Selig's private business? What possibly could have convinced you this was a good idea? Wake the #### up, people.

Wake the #### up.

Miami recalled the mayor who pushed the stadium deal and got it approved. The city still has to live with the repercussions of it though.

So, 16 most valuable players to that year's team, 39 WAR, give or take. 20.8 acquired during Loria's tenure.

Nope, only 4.2 WAR "acquired" during Loria's tenure through the signing of Pudge.

All of those trades were only made possible by the massive amount of talent Loria inherited when the MLB traded him the Marlins for the Expos. Here is a list of players they traded his first two years.

Antonio Alfonseca
Matt Clement
Ryan Dempster
Cliff Floyd
Wilton Guerrero
Claudio Vargas
Charles Johnson
Preston Wilson
Nate Robertson
Kevin Millar
Adrian Gonzalez
Denny Bautista

Here is players on the 2001 roster kept through 2003 (about 25 WAR that year)
Luis Castillo
Josh Beckett
Derrek Lee
Mike Lowell
Brad Penny
Braden Looper
Alex Gonzalez
Rick Helling
Miquel Cabrera
Ramon Castro
AJ Burnett
Mike Redmond

Loria started with a super deep organization (as well as substantial MLB subsidies), and used that organizational depth instead of revenues to keep his team competitive. But as that original bank of talent has been spent, their average results have declined. Since their last WS championship they are averaging 79 wins, 77 wins since he went to rock bottom payroll in 2006, 71 wins the last two years.

The bank is empty. This trade ain't gonna replenish it. The trend is clear, Beinfest is good, but he won't be able to stop them from averaging less than 70 wins over the next decade.

206.

Sucking up to Bud Selig may be many things, but I doubt it qualifies as work.

If there was any sucking up, it's because Loria desperately needed extra pressure on Dade County to threaten into a stadium deal.
What makes you think they're friends? Just because both are enemies of the disgruntled Expos' fans or public-financed stadium critics or revenue sharing critics doesn't mean they're allied. You seem to forget that Selig and Loria had a rather public fight over Loria's insistence he retain one of MLB's 30 franchises and Selig's plans to contract 2 of them. Friends don't normally threaten to sue each other.

The Selig bashing is overkill. He has no obligation to do anything other than what's best for his business.

Disagree. He's a human being, and he is bound by ethical norms like the rest of us. Cheating and lying and swindling are wrong. Profitable, but wrong.

Weird, reports that the Jays checked on Bobby Cox's availability to manage.

I saw Maddux and Glavine in line to get their passports renewed.

Careful, SBB, you're treading dangerously close to getting accused of wearing a tinfoil hat.

Hat? He looks like a baking potato.

Side note: do not wrap baking potatoes in foil. Oil and salt on the outside, couple holes poked in it, 350 for an hour (or whatever); time will vary based on your oven and the size of the potatoes; you can also vary the temperature successfully depending on how much time you have or what else you're baking. But wrapping in foil will actually steam rather than bake and it will #### the texture right up, as well as getting dumb soft skin instead of awesome crispy skin.

Reports are Logan Morrison is now on the trading block as is Ricky Nolasco. What would be the asking price for either of them?

Microwave directions, too?

Report: Marlins Wanted Will Middlebrooks, Felix Doubront, Xander Bogaerts in Discussions for Jose Reyes, Josh Johnson