Awesome! let's give the old man another!

Why didn't they interview Andy, too?

He's all tied up with FOX, MSNBC, and C-SPAN right now.

True Story: Abramson is an alcoholic who didn't want to pay for his own champagne.

The men in the grandstand wore suits and straw hats.

I know this is about an October game, but did people also wear suits to July and August games?

I know this is about an October game, but did people also wear suits to July and August games?

They wore suits for everything. If you were a miner, farmer, textile worker, or some sort of factory worker you'd wear a suit on Sunday. If you had a clerical/office job you wore a suit everyday of the week. For the most part men that were out in public wore a jacket, button down shirt, some form of necktie, and a hat.

It seems crazy to wear long-sleeves, never mind a full suit, to an August dog-days afternoon game in D.C. Was everybody just drenched in sweat? That sounds miserable even if you got to watch Walter Johnson pitch. Sometimes I just don't understand the old-timey ways.

I've written a little about this WRT clothes people used to wear to Central Park in that era. The best explanation I can think of is that you'd have felt naked without that much clothing. It's an area of life in which social psychology plays a much bigger role than objective perception of discomfort.

One other minor factor is that decked stadiums provided more shade. That doesn't help a heck of a lot when its 90 in said shade, but it prevents the more extreme cases of sunstroke. And as I have learned in Texas over the years, being fully clad is better, if you must be in full sunlight, than being in shorts and T-shirt and whatnot. A brimmed hat and long sleeves and trousers are counterintuitively pretty good sungear. Black broadcloth suits are not, I admit.

Why didn't they interview Andy, too?

When I had my first book shop in Georgetown, I had a window display of that 1924 World Series that featured "the program, the pennant, and the pebble". Unfortunately, since that was in 1986, there were very few passersby who understood that last reference, though at least nobody came in and asked me if it was "the original".

I know this is about an October game, but did people also wear suits to July and August games?

They wore suits for everything. If you were a miner, farmer, textile worker, or some sort of factory worker you'd wear a suit on Sunday. If you had a clerical/office job you wore a suit everyday of the week. For the most part men that were out in public wore a jacket, button down shirt, some form of necktie, and a hat.

Absolutely right. You can infer this by watching the gangster movies of that era, when even during the final shootout scenes with the cops, the hoods would always be dressed in their Sunday best, often adjusting their ties before loading their guns.

As far as ballparks went, though, I'm pretty sure the standard coat and tie was less than universal by the 50's, though in the 40's you still see it in the photographs of stadiums from that decade. But even before that, the fact that the hitting background was often referred to as an ongoing problem during crowded afternoon games tells you that at the very least, the white collared shirt was the favored style of dress in the bleachers on a Summmer afternoon. In the shaded grandstand, probably not so much.

I've written a little about this WRT clothes people used to wear to Central Park in that era.

Thanks for the link ... interesting.

Nice Bob. Your note about the shade from the decks echoes the question your reference to the women's superfluous parasols raised. One frequently sees covered women with parasols as well, so it may not be all fashion, modesty, or daintiness.

It seems crazy to wear long-sleeves, never mind a full suit, to an August dog-days afternoon game in D.C. Was everybody just drenched in sweat? That sounds miserable even if you got to watch Walter Johnson pitch. Sometimes I just don't understand the old-timey ways.

That was before global warming, it rarely got above 70° back then.

the program, the pennant, and the pebble

I'd be surprised if many Primates even get that reference.

I'd be surprised if many Primates even get that reference.

I don't - but I'll guess that some pebble may or may not have caused a bad hop on some famous play?

Good point on the parasols, Mayor. Yes, I guess any bit of shade is worth seeking (another thing I should know from Texas summer life, where often finding a shaded parking place can make your whole day).

The Peckinpaugh pebble?

Edit: No, that would have been 1925.

As far as ballparks went, though, I'm pretty sure the standard coat and tie was less than universal by the 50's, though in the 40's you still see it in the photographs of stadiums from that decade. But even before that, the fact that the hitting background was often referred to as an ongoing problem during crowded afternoon games tells you that at the very least, the white collared shirt was the favored style of dress in the bleachers on a Summmer afternoon. In the shaded grandstand, probably not so much.

Men were allowed to take their jackets off when they got to where they were going.

I think another important point, vis-a-vis early 20th century clothing, is that there was no air conditioning. The temperature at which people were comfortable was likely significantly higher.

They wore suits for everything. If you were a miner, farmer, textile worker, or some sort of factory worker you'd wear a suit on Sunday. If you had a clerical/office job you wore a suit everyday of the week. For the most part men that were out in public wore a jacket, button down shirt, some form of necktie, and a hat.

Ahh, the days before the disgusting New Left hippies started ruining the country.

Ahh, the days before the disgusting New Left hippies started ruining the country.

That womanizer JFK removed our hats. That's when the rot set in!

Ahh, the days before the disgusting New Left hippies started ruining the country.

no one's stopping you from wearing a full suit and sitting in the sun for 2 hours on 90 degree days...

The last time the Cubs won the World Series, this guy wouldn't be born for five more years...

the program, the pennant, and the pebble

I'd be surprised if many Primates even get that reference.

Seriously? I thought that the old "that was before my time" excuse didn't apply around here. That pebble is one of the most important artifacts in World Series history.

FTR "the pebble" in question is the one that caused Earl McNeely's game 7 routine ground ball to hop over Freddy Lindstrom's head in the 12th inning for a Series ending double. It was every bit as decisive as Bill Mazeroski's 1960 home run, and more so than Joe Carter's 6th game shot in 1993.

They wore suits for everything. If you were a miner, farmer, textile worker, or some sort of factory worker you'd wear a suit on Sunday. If you had a clerical/office job you wore a suit everyday of the week. For the most part men that were out in public wore a jacket, button down shirt, some form of necktie, and a hat.

Ahh, the days before the disgusting New Left hippies started ruining the country.

Yeah, and I've probably been in jail for more days in my life than I've been in a ####### coat and tie, but nobody's stopping you from going to bed with a ####### suit on if it suits your ####### fancy. Not even the government.

Sorry, Andy, I never heard of that pebble. Page GGC to the thread, he will probably know that it came from the same quarry as the Kubek Pebble :)

FTR "the pebble" in question is the one that caused Earl McNeely's game 7 routine ground ball to hop over Freddy Lindstrom's head in the 12th inning for a Series ending double.

The first seven hitters in the Giants lineup from that game are in the Hall of Fame. Part of that is because Frankie Frisch was one of them.

Yeah, and I've probably been in jail for more days in my life than I've been in a ####### coat and tie, but nobody's stopping you from going to bed with a ####### suit on if it suits your ####### fancy. Not even the government.

And yet, for those of us who desire to cast off the shackles of clothing, the government forces us to wear pants at gunpoint. When will the fascism end?

“I saw Walter Johnson knock a home run.” When Stephen Strasburg hit a home run this year, Abramson told everybody that he’d seen a hard-throwing Washington ace do the same thing, more than 80 years earlier. “But it wasn’t at the World Series.”

Fortunately the Senators had been careful with Johnson early in his career, limiting him to only 370 innings in his Age 22 season, so he was still around to be the ace of the '24 Champs 14 years later. History, repeating, etc.

Sorry, Andy, I never heard of that pebble. Page GGC to the thread, he will probably know that it came from the same quarry as the Kubek Pebble :)

Couldn't be, since God always separates good pebbles from bad pebbles, and the Lindstrom pebble was definitely from the Good Pebble quarry. The Kubek pebble now resides in the torture chamber along with the soiled shoes of the Jones gang.

And if you don't understand that reference, I give up. (smile)

FTR "the pebble" in question is the one that caused Earl McNeely's game 7 routine ground ball to hop over Freddy Lindstrom's head in the 12th inning for a Series ending double. It was every bit as decisive as Bill Mazeroski's 1960 home run, and more so than Joe Carter's 6th game shot in 1993.

Don't want to quibble with Andy, since he was there and I hadn't even been born yet, but I thought what made "the pebble" especially magical is that Bucky Harris hit what appeared to be a routine grounder in the 8th that hit a pebble and bounced over Lindstrom, leading to 2 runs and a tie game. The bad hop in the 12th - possibly hitting the same ####### pebble - makes the story doubly entertaining.

Fortunately the Senators had been careful with Johnson early in his career, limiting him to only 370 innings in his Age 22 season, so he was still around to be the ace of the '24 Champs 14 years later.History, repeating, etc.

The parallel only becomes more eerie when you consider that, as was the case with Johnson, it will only cost the Nats $20,000 to have Strasburg pitch for them 14 years from now.

FTR "the pebble" in question is the one that caused Earl McNeely's game 7 routine ground ball to hop over Freddy Lindstrom's head in the 12th inning for a Series ending double. It was every bit as decisive as Bill Mazeroski's 1960 home run, and more so than Joe Carter's 6th game shot in 1993.

Don't want to quibble with Andy, since he was there and I hadn't even been born yet, but I thought what made "the pebble" especially magical is that Bucky Harris hit what appeared to be a routine grounder in the 8th that hit a pebble and bounced over Lindstrom, leading to 2 runs and a tie game. The bad hop in the 12th - possibly hitting the same ####### pebble - makes the story doubly entertaining.

I knew about the Harris pebble, but I'd forgotten that it was supposedly the same one. In any case, it does double up on the story.

But given the state of groundskeeping in Griffith Stadium**, I strongly suspect that there were over a hundred pebbles lying around the infield during that game.

**I played in a DC high school tournament game there in 1960, and even then it was a lot closer to 1924 than to the immaculate Nats Park of 2012. I've also got a 1937 photo of Griffith Stadium on Opening Day, 1937 that you have to see to believe. The football hash marks are still clearly visible from the previous year's college games (the Redskins were still in Boston in 1936), and well over half the playing field has no grass on it at all. But then Clark Griffith was famous for his pennypinching ways for his entire life, so those field conditions shouldn't be all that surprising.

**I played in a DC high school tournament game there in 1960, and even then it was a lot closer to 1924 than to the immaculate Nats Park of 2012. I've also got a 1937 photo of Griffith Stadium on Opening Day, 1937 that you have to see to believe. The football hash marks are still clearly visible from the previous year's college games (the Redskins were still in Boston in 1936), and well over half the playing field has no grass on it at all. But then Clark Griffith was famous for his pennypinching ways for his entire life, so those field conditions shouldn't be all that surprising.

This is why old-time fielding records blow me away sometimes: THOSE gloves, on THOSE fields, and you can still find guys like Bluege or George McBride who seemed to have very little trouble. Or, for that matter, Maz at Forbes Field. Rabbit Maranville. Heinie Groh. Etc.

Wait. There's still someone alive who saw Walter Johnson pitch? Can someone get an interview with him and ask him what Johnson looked like when pitching? What was his motion like? What angle did he actually have the arm in? I've seen a few references, and there may be a smattering of film, but I'd like to know that from a first-hand source.

The suit thing was left over from the Victorian era, which was just after the Little Ice Age started to go away. That's why it's a shirt, with a vest, and a coat. You could layer that, discarding the coat and vest if it got hot. As the climate got hotter - as the Little Ice Age went fully away - people started to wear suits without vests and took their coats off a lot more often. When Jack Kennedy got elected president, it suddenly became fashionable for men to NOT wear hats (Cokes above), which pretty much did in the requirement that men wear suits. But it does come down to a climate change over several decades. - Brock Hanke

I like wearing a sport coat even when it's kind of warm, because it has pockets for my glasses, phone, shiv, VX canister, needle and thread. Also, the ladies like the fashion show ruboff effect.

I've seen a few references, and there may be a smattering of film, but I'd like to know that from a first-hand source.

You see some in Ken Burns (though I'd still love to hear from the man about Johnson). Big windmill windup, brought the glove back and then threw fire sidearm.

I like watching World Series games from the 50s and 60s when people wore suits to the games. It seems an appropriate marker of respect for the occasion and wearing a suit in October is perfectly comfortable.

The trend toward men no longer wearing hats started long before JFK (or the hippies), and, btw, he had a top hat he wore throughout inauguration day. When he gave his speech, there are pictures where his hat can clearly be seen on his chair.

snopes on the JFK legend

The book, Hatless Jack, was very well received when it came out a few years ago, but it, too, lays hte myth to rest.

Kennedy did crack a joke in Texas the morning of his assassination about not wearing hats after he was given a cowboy hat as a present at the event. He didn't put it on, by the way.

.

Seriously? I thought that the old "that was before my time" excuse didn't apply around here. That pebble is one of the most important artifacts in World Series history.

FTR "the pebble" in question is the one that caused Earl McNeely's game 7 routine ground ball to hop over Freddy Lindstrom's head in the 12th inning for a Series ending double. It was every bit as decisive as Bill Mazeroski's 1960 home run, and more so than Joe Carter's 6th game shot in 1993.

Andy, sorry to come to the thread late, but I knew the reference. Actually, anybody who has read anything about the 1924 season knows the reference.

And, no, the "that was before my time" excuse should not apply here. If only people would devote the same energy to learning actual baseball history that they devote to retrospective statistical analysis.

I've also got a 1937 photo of Griffith Stadium on Opening Day, 1937 that you have to see to believe.

Your description really makes me want to see it. We'll be back in the DC area sometime next summer -- I'll have to look you up.

Big windmill windup, brought the glove back and then threw fire sidearm.

Am I the only one who wishes pitchers would still use big windups when pitching with nobody on base? I understand shortening everything up when there are runners on base, but it really would be fun to see guys wind up the way they used to. I think Bill James mentioned something about possibly getting more lower body strength through an old fashioned wind-up, somewhere in the New Historical Baseball Abstract.

The suit thing was left over from the Victorian era, which was just after the Little Ice Age started to go away. That's why it's a shirt, with a vest, and a coat. You could layer that, discarding the coat and vest if it got hot. As the climate got hotter - as the Little Ice Age went fully away - people started to wear suits without vests and took their coats off a lot more often. When Jack Kennedy got elected president, it suddenly became fashionable for men to NOT wear hats (Cokes above), which pretty much did in the requirement that men wear suits. But it does come down to a climate change over several decades. -Brock Hanke

The "Little Ice Age" was exactly that; little. It was a few centuries long but the temperature anomaly itself was less than 1 degree C supposedly which is far too small to be anything but a minor factor in the fashion trends discussed above I would think.

brock

can't help you there but i did share my youthful perspective of bob feller a while back. i think one of the tech whizerati here captured it for the archives

if you were interested.

Seriously? I thought that the old "that was before my time" excuse didn't apply around here. That pebble is one of the most important artifacts in World Series history.

FTR "the pebble" in question is the one that caused Earl McNeely's game 7 routine ground ball to hop over Freddy Lindstrom's head in the 12th inning for a Series ending double. It was every bit as decisive as Bill Mazeroski's 1960 home run, and more so than Joe Carter's 6th game shot in 1993.

Andy, sorry to come to the thread late, but I knew the reference. Actually, anybody who has read anything about the 1924 season knows the reference.

Dan, other than Chris and Treder and a handful of old Burleighs like them, you're the last person I would've figured not knowing that. Hell, you might even be able to pick that pebble out of a police lineup.

And, no, the "that was before my time" excuse should not apply here. If only people would devote the same energy to learning actual baseball history that they devote to retrospective statistical analysis.

Totally agree, but unless you're on the truly advanced level of sabermetrics, the former takes a lot more time and effort than the latter. While BB-Reference dumps every statistic into one neat little website for you to slice and dice, narrative descriptions of non-famous events require a fair amount of pre-existing knowledge to look up in the first place.

I've also got a 1937 photo of Griffith Stadium on Opening Day, 1937 that you have to see to believe.

Your description really makes me want to see it. We'll be back in the DC area sometime next summer -- I'll have to look you up.

Just give me a heads up. I've been collecting baseball everything for over 50 years, and when I had my book shop I bought collections from all over the country, keeping the cream while selling off the duplicates. What may interest you the most is a complete set of baseball guides from 1876 through 2006 (originals with covers from 1901 on), plus a complete Sporting News run from 1944 through 1962.

Am I the only one who wishes pitchers would still use big windups when pitching with nobody on base? I understand shortening everything up when there are runners on base, but it really would be fun to see guys wind up the way they used to. I think Bill James mentioned something about possibly getting more lower body strength through an old fashioned wind-up, somewhere in the New Historical Baseball Abstract.

The full windup got rapidly phased out after Don Larsen's perfect game in 1956 and Bob Turley's Cy Young season two years later, both of which were accomplished with the no-windup motion. Turley's moment of epiphany about his previous double pump windup likely came in this 1955 game in Briggs Stadium, when Earl Torgeson stole home with the winning run in the bottom of the 10th. That was reinforced in the 1955 World Series, when Jackie Robinson caused Turley to completely unravel in game 3 by running halfway down the line from third to home every time Turley went into his windup, screaming like Monica Seles every time he did it. That's exactly the kind of thing that you'll never learn from relying on statistical sources for baseball knowledge.

1875-76: Amazingly snowy winter for the UK, especially the South East early on, the first week of December dumped 1-2ft in some places, worst in the South East. March of this month had many snowstorms, and April recorded nearly 2ft of snow in the Midlands! Snowfall was recorded (on a notable scale), in November, December, January, February, March, April, and May! I would regard this winter as very snowy.

1878-79: Another snowy one! In the north, snow cover remained for 3 months! Snow recorded in November, December, January, February, March and April! Very snowy

1880-81: Now I didn't add this one for the huge volume of snow it recorded (it didn't, although it was still snowy!) I added this, because of the early snowfall! 6 inches of snow fell in October in London! In January, 3ft of level snow fell from East Devon to the Isle of Wight! There were 10ft drifts in Evesham, and Dartmoor recorded 4ft. Very Snowy

Interestingly, 1881-82 wasn't snowy at all!

1885-1886: Snow fell in October, November, December, January, February, March, April and May! London recorded 1ft of snow in7 hours in early January. In the North a blizzard dumped 2ft of snow widely, and in May the North of England got a heavy fall. Very Snowy

1878-80: 2ft of Snow fell in Oxford in October! A ferocious blizzard raged in the North East in March. 10th June saw snow in Scotland, of 6 inches! 11th July reportedly saw snow in the South and East, Keswick saw snow above 1000ft.

From 1895-99 the UK had 4 consecutive years of little/average snowfall, of which the only noteworthy fall was of 1ft in the Eastern spine of the country. 1899-00 saw general snow of 1ft, 2ft in places. The following year wasn't exceptional either, although 5-7ft of snow was recorded in North Wales and Northern England. Both years were snowy.







The cooling at the end of the Maunder minimum can be clearly seen in this line graph along with the sudden recovery after 1695 leading to a relatively warm 18th century. (It is a fact that 18th century CET summers were on average warmer than 20th century CET summers.) The 18th century was followed by a cooler 19th century noted for three quite cool periods in the 1810s, the 1840s and the 1890s. The 20th century starts cool, warms from 1920 to 1950 and then a cooling sets in which lasts until 1986. This is followed by a warming which has lasted until 2008. This is followed by a warming trend culminating in 2006 being the warmest year in the record. The years 2007 and 2008 have been cooler, the latter being nearly a full degree centigrade cooler than 2006.

FTR "the pebble" in question is the one that caused Earl McNeely's game 7 routine ground ball to hop over Freddy Lindstrom's head in the 12th inning for a Series ending double. It was every bit as decisive as Bill Mazeroski's 1960 home run, and more so than Joe Carter's 6th game shot in 1993.

That Hardball Times, IIRC, called it the greatest Game Seven ever. It's certainly the greatest game most contemporary fans don't know anything about (unlike 1960's Game Seven, 1975's Game Six, the Thomson game, etc.)

I think another important point, vis-a-vis early 20th century clothing, is that there was no air conditioning. The temperature at which people were comfortable was likely significantly higher.

DC was notoriously unliveable during the summer, which is why Congress went out of session and everyone who could left for the mountains or other cooler places.

That was reinforced in the 1955 World Series, when Jackie Robinson caused Turley to completely unravel in game 3 by running halfway down the line from third to home every time Turley went into his windup, screaming like Monica Seles every time he did it.

It's not 1955, but I noticed Jackie doing similar things when I last rewatched Game 7 of the 1952 World Series. I think most have forgotten what a terror on the basepaths he truly was, especially when he was on third base. You don't see guys doing that anymore, that's for sure.

That Hardball Times, IIRC, called it the greatest Game Seven ever. It's certainly the greatest game most contemporary fans don't know anything about (unlike 1960's Game Seven, 1975's Game Six, the Thomson game, etc.)

The only reason for that, of course, is lack of video coverage. The series was covered on the radio, at least, though I don't know of any surviving recordings. I also don't know what radio penetration was like in the USA in 1924. Maybe something will surface one of these years -- you never know. There are, for example, now complete radio broadcasts of 4 different 1934 World Series games out there (games 1, 3, 6 and 7). I know this because I now have MP3 copies of all 4.

Anyway, though, the game would certainly have been remembered more if there were video footage. That, and if Washington didn't go from the end of 1971 to the beginning of 2005 without a team. History tends to be forgotten when nobody has an incentive to remember it.

If only people would devote the same energy to learning actual baseball history that they devote to retrospective statistical analysis

I think I meet that standard. I don't know anything about statistics, either :-D