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    • Wednesday, May 22, 2013

    Seamheads.com Adds 1928 Negro Leagues Data

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    posted 2 days ago by KJOK to negro leagues, seamheads  |  5 comment(s)

    Today we add the 1928 Negro leagues to the DB.  This was the year the Eastern Colored League fell apart, putting an end to the first edition of the Black World Series.  Meanwhile the Negro National League continued with a split-season format.  The St. Louis Stars won the first half going away; in the second half, the American Giants just edged the Stars and the Kansas City Monarchs, setting up an NNL championship series with St. Louis that would take the place of the World Series that year. ...Read More...

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    1. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 01:57 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Ack! The link doesn't work and I really want to read this. Any help?
    2. McCoy Wilfong for Money posted on February 17, 2009 at 01:58 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    The link is screwed up a bit but you can figure it out.

    I know he throws in the caveats but isn't it all kind of pointless (comparing NegroL to semi, MLB to semi) if we aren't comparing to separate variables to one constant variable? Especially when the one supposedly constant is consistently inconsistent semi-pro leagues?

    www.scottsimkus.wordpress.com
    3. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 02:09 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I know he throws in the caveats but isn't it all kind of pointless (comparing NegroL to semi, MLB to semi) if we aren't comparing to separate variables to one constant variable? Especially when the one supposedly constant is consistently inconsistent semi-pro leagues?

    He admits the data diesn't answer any questions yet--it's still just raw data. Still, the raw data makes sense to me. The NL wasn't quite as good as the MLB teams but they're damn close. The best stats for the NLers are teh guys you'd expect. NL stats are like paleontology, you're never going to get a complete picture so you have to try to recreate the ecology through fragments. It's helpful. I'll have to bookmark his site.
    4. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 02:15 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Shooty, man. I should have contacted you last week. In midtown, there was a SABR meeting and folks did presentations on Pete Hill and Wally Yonamine. It probably would've been right up your alley. rLr and I showed up.
    5. McCoy Wilfong for Money posted on February 17, 2009 at 02:17 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    On a player level the raw data says that NL hitters are better than MLB hitters yet on a team level they score more runs.

    All data is good data but it isn't always useful data. In terms of comparison I really don't know how useful the data is yet.
    6. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 02:20 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Shooty, man. I should have contacted you last week. In midtown, there was a SABR meeting and folks did presentations on Pete Hill and Wally Yonamine. It probably would've been right up your alley. rLr and I showed up.

    Yeah, I would have been interested. Hell. I know a guy in Denver who might have flown out for that. He's got some serious Pete Hill love.
    7. The Yankee Clapper posted on February 17, 2009 at 03:11 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Might be interesting data, but I'm not sure one can draw any conclusions if Negro League players saw competition with white semi-pro & barnstorming teams as an important part of their quest for legitmacy while the white Major Leaguers saw their games as mere exhibtions.
    8. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 03:24 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Might be interesting data, but I'm not sure one can draw any conclusions if Negro League players saw competition with white semi-pro & barnstorming teams as an important part of their quest for legitmacy

    I don't see how you can know how each group approached the games. You could just as easily argue than black teams went easy on white semi-pro teams because they didn't want to tick anyone off--fewer blow outs, for example. There's also no reason to think Josh Gibson or Satchel Paige took these games any more seriously than their white counterparts. In their world, they were pretty big stars, too, and it wasn't like impressing any scouts who might be watching was going to get their tickets punched to MLB. It's best just to focus on what happened on the field, I think.
    9. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship  posted on February 17, 2009 at 03:47 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Might be interesting data, but I'm not sure one can draw any conclusions if Negro League players saw competition with white semi-pro & barnstorming teams as an important part of their quest for legitmacy while the white Major Leaguers saw their games as mere exhibtions.

    Yeah, right. Those white Major Leaguers back in the days of Jim Crow liked nothing more than being joned by the boys around the old cracker barrel during the offseason about how a bunch of nigggggers handed them their hats. They didn't mind that a bit, nosirree Bob. Just like Adolph Rupp grinned and spouted Brotherhood Week cliches to his neighbors in Kentucky when Texas Western kicked his boys' butts in the NCAA final.

    This isn't to say that many Major Leaguers weren't personally supportive of the Negro Leaguers' bids to get into the Bigs. Plenty of them were. But don't let anyone try to tell you that they didn't mind being reminded back home that they'd been outplayed by a bunch of nigggggers.
    10. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 03:58 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Shooty, I didn't know much about Hill. Because I researched Schoolboy Johnny Taylor, what I do know about the Negro Leagues is more about the 1930s than any other era. The way the presenter described him, he was like Tris Speaker with Ted Williams eyes.

    I may peruse Scott's article if I get a chance today. I dug some of his earlier blog posts.
    11. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 04:01 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    This isn't to say that many Major Leaguers weren't personally supportive of the Negro Leaguers' bids to get into the Bigs. Plenty of them were. But don't let anyone try to tell you that they didn't mind being reminded back home that they'd been outplayed by a bunch of nigggggers.

    Hey Andy! Not that I diagree with your sentiment, but this article is about Negro Leaguers vs. semi-pro teams as opposed to MLB teams against semi-pro teams and not the NL vs. MLB barnstorming tours which is a whole 'nother animal. Simkus is just toying around with using the stats to help gauge the relative strength of each league using the semi-pro games as the control. Obviously there are a lot of problems with this which Simkus freely admits. It's interesting, though. Any new information is welcome information in my book.
    12. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 04:06 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    The way the presenter described him, he was like Tris Speaker with Ted Williams eyes.

    There's a real disconnect between how the NL afficionados think of Hill vs. what the HOM voters think of him. For the NL guys, Pete Hill is larger than life where for the HOM he's a HOFer, but nowhere near inner circle. It's fun to try to parse this stuff and get a feel for how good he really may have been. My guess is a guy who will go to the trouble to reasearch Hill and present on him is probably going to give the rosiest view possible of his talents.

    As a side note, did you know there are actually baseball cards of Pete Hill? The Cuban had the foresight to create a set of cards commemorating the Tigers vs. Cuban league teams tour of 1909. I think that's an amazing bit of luck.
    13. McCoy Wilfong for Money posted on February 17, 2009 at 04:31 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I think the biases of the umpires would be a critical piece in this data as well. How did white umpire call games against ML as compared to when MLB played the semi-pros? How did some podunk Ump handle say Babe Ruth coming to town as compared to Turkey Stearns or some scrub from the NL'ers?
    14. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship  posted on February 17, 2009 at 04:39 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    As a side note, did you know there are actually baseball cards of Pete Hill? The Cuban had the foresight to create a set of cards commemorating the Tigers vs. Cuban league teams tour of 1909. I think that's an amazing bit of luck.

    As a side note to that side note, did you know that Spalding used to publish a "Spanish-American Edition" of their Official Base Ball Guide, and that it had extensive coverage (with lots of photos) of not only Cuban League teams and players, but of many of the American amateur and semi-pro teams of the Caribbean area? Remember, the American presence in the Caribbean was just being established in the first decade of the 20th century, and wherever there were soldiers and engineers, there were baseball teams. And for at least six years prior to WW I, the "Spanish-American Edition" of the Spalding Guide is a terrific source of info on them.
    15. The Yankee Clapper posted on February 17, 2009 at 04:46 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Those white Major Leaguers back in the days of Jim Crow liked nothing more than being joned by the boys around the old cracker barrel during the offseason about how a bunch of nigggggers handed them their hats.

    Wasn't suggesting that, and apparently the article uses data from Negro League and Major League barnstorming teams playing against semi-pro teams, not each other. Attempted to RTFA, but the link is still busted, so I'm not sure what qualifications go with the data, although measuring either Negro Leaguers or MLB players based on their performance against semi-pro teams seems a lot like using spring training stats to decide who is the better Major Leaguer. Was there even a recognized definition of what were the "top notch semi-pro" teams? Was the revenue-split ever affected by who won the game, which presumably might have affected the effort expended? I'm all for publishing whatever data exists, but we already know that Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, and many others would have been Hall of Famers if allowed to play in MLB. I'm just somewhat dubious that competition against semi-pro teams indicates the strength of the leagues with any precision.
    16. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) posted on February 17, 2009 at 04:53 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I think the biases of the umpires would be a critical piece in this data as well. How did white umpire call games against ML as compared to when MLB played the semi-pros? How did some podunk Ump handle say Babe Ruth coming to town as compared to Turkey Stearns or some scrub from the NL'ers?

    I don't think any semi-pros were walking Ruth. The crowd would have murdered them.
    17. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 04:58 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    From TFA:

    My original plan was to write something elaborate about semi-pro ball pre World War II, trying to explain the quality of play and provide some evidence and theories, but I got distracted by some “Family Guy” reruns and ####-canned the whole exercise. Instead, I’ll just cut to the chase and slap you in the face with some numbers. I’ve got some strong opinions on this stuff, but I’m too lazy to share them.


    I wish that Scott did this. I've read a little bit about semipro baseball in the Hartford area during the 30s. They had one really good team, the Savitt Gems, and a nice little Twilight League circuit. Some of the players were minor league quality, but the minors shrunk in the 30s. Also, some of the guys made more money doing day jobs and supplementing that with semi-pro play. Unfortunately, there isn't a really good history of that. I had to read old newspaper articles to come up with what little I know about the scene.
    18. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 05:01 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    And for at least six years prior to WW I, the "Spanish-American Edition" of the Spalding Guide is a terrific source of info on them.

    I didn't know this, actually. The Cubans themselves printed a lot of material, but I didn't know Spalding had. As a side note to your side note of my side note, I discovered that there is actually footage of some Negro League players on DVD. I discovered on a search of Amazon that a DVD set of found footage randomly contains some NL material. The set is pretty expensive, though, so I have yet to talk myself into buying the set as I have no idea how much footage there is. I'm dying to see what there is, though.
    19. Scott Simkus posted on February 17, 2009 at 05:20 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I wanted to jump in for a brief second. I'll respond to some of the questions posted here (and elsewhere) over at the blog, www.scottsimkus.wordpress.com. What I've presented so far is really just the tip of the iceberg. What I've uncovered could probably fill two entire books, and presents some compelling new revelations about the competition level. It also opens up a slew of new questions. I'm just glad there's an interest in this stuff, thanks for stopping by the site.
    20. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 05:56 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    There's a real disconnect between how the NL afficionados think of Hill vs. what the HOM voters think of him. For the NL guys, Pete Hill is larger than life where for the HOM he's a HOFer, but nowhere near inner circle.


    I just scanned through the Pete Hill thread. I'll need to read it somewhere other than at work in order to digest it.
    21. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 06:01 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I just scanned through the Pete Hill thread. I'll need to read it somewhere other than at work in order to digest it.

    Yeah, that thread is a monster.
    22. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 06:33 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    My main problem with reading HOM threads is that it's similar to the time I watched some episode of Lost and had no idea what was going on. If I ever have the time, I'd have to read the HOM from the beginning to understand some of the stuff and I believe that some of the older posts were lost during the switchover.
    23. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 07:32 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    It looks like Scott put up a part deaux.
    24. Repoz  posted on February 17, 2009 at 07:35 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    If I ever have the time, I'd have to read the HOM from the beginning

    Wait for the book.
    25. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 07:37 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I wonder if a Hall of Merit book makes sense? Now that the HOM is set, a book listing the players and a statistical or historical essay about each player to give them context. Kind of like the Historical Abstract--roughly--except without Bill James. The work could be farmed out to several writers depending on their expertise. I guarantee you I would buy it.
    26. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 07:46 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I just erased a long post. Nutshell: I'd like to learn more about some of the methodologies that HOMers use to rank players. I probably know more about Dan Rosenheck's sytem than most of the others, but I'd like to hear some knowledgable folks discuss the strengths and weaknesses of his WARP. Too, I believe that there was a poster named Chris Cobb who came up with a way to compare NeLers to major leaguers. I wonder how what he's come up with compares to what Scott has done here.
    27. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship  posted on February 17, 2009 at 08:33 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I wonder if a Hall of Merit book makes sense? Now that the HOM is set, a book listing the players and a statistical or historical essay about each player to give them context. Kind of like the Historical Abstract--roughly--except without Bill James. The work could be farmed out to several writers depending on their expertise. I guarantee you I would buy it.

    If such a book could be done with the flair and accessibility of the two Bill James Historical Abstracts, I think it could do quite well. In fact I think it would do a lot better than some of the HoM honchos themselves might think, since IMO there's a sizable number of people who aren't all that enamored with the current HoF selection methodology.

    But it couldn't be one of those jargon-ridden tomes that appeal only to mathematicians, not if you want the HoM to reach its full potential audience. Keep the calculus in back of the book, and write the book in English.
    28. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 08:38 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    But it couldn't be one of those jargon-ridden tomes that appeal only to mathematicians, not if you want the HoM to reach its full potential audience. Keep the calculus in back of the book, and write the book in English.

    I agree completely. I'd introduce the book with somekind of synopsis of methodology and focus a lot more on the contextual history of the obscure players and try to find something new to say about the Ruths and Gerhrigs and Aarons. And yeah, they can put MLE's and other statisitical data in an appendix in the back. You know, I really like this idea.
    29. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 08:46 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Yeah, I picked up Schell's books ranking great hitters but they were written in the style of a biostatistics professor; which he is. I liked them, but I'm sort of a stathead, and I even I rarely pick those books up to reread a passage. The Historical Abstracts are a different story. I refer to them quite often.
    30. TomH posted on February 17, 2009 at 08:52 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I supppose very few of us HOMies consider ourselves great writers. I sure don't. Bill James would not be BILL JAMES, no matter if he were 10 times smarter, if he was not a good writer.
    31. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 17, 2009 at 08:57 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I supppose very few of us HOMies consider ourselves great writers. I sure don't. Bill James would not be BILL JAMES, no matter if he were 10 times smarter, if he was not a good writer.

    Yeah, I think you'd have to farm the writing out. How about an HOM book as a partnership with those knuckleheads at THT? How is this not a good idea? It's not a good idea. It's a ####### GREAT idea.
    32. robinred  posted on February 17, 2009 at 09:01 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Yeah, I think you'd have to farm the writing out. How about an HOM book as a partnership with those knuckleheads at THT? How is this not a good idea? It's not a good idea. It's a ####### GREAT idea.

    I'd buy it, especially if Andy wrote a chapter on Bonds, McGwire and the HoM.
    33. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship  posted on February 17, 2009 at 09:03 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    How about an HOM book as a partnership with those knuckleheads at THT? How is this not a good idea? It's not a good idea. It's a ####### GREAT idea.

    I second it. You can begin with Brattain and Treder.
    34. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship  posted on February 17, 2009 at 09:04 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I'd buy it, especially if Andy wrote a chapter on Bonds, McGwire and the HoM.

    Ouch!

    But of course since I think that they both belong in the HoM without question, an essay along those lines might be an interesting way of defining one of the several distinctions between the two institutions as a means of introduction. Not that I'd be the one to do it (duh).
    35. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 09:38 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I second it. You can begin with Brattain and Treder.


    Treder's recent stuff like the BRTL series is very fun to read. Brattain might go off on a long tangent about Marvin Miller ;).
    36. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 17, 2009 at 10:28 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Part three is up.
    37. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship  posted on February 17, 2009 at 10:36 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Those are terrific articles, Scott, definitely worth a bookmark. Where on Earth did you ever manage to dig up that many obscure box scores, and how long did it take you?
    38. Obama Bomaye posted on February 17, 2009 at 10:50 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I'd like to learn more about some of the methodologies that HOMers use to rank players.

    I'm sure the HOMies themselves would like to learn more about Yest's methodologies.
    39. Scott Simkus posted on February 17, 2009 at 11:13 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Where on Earth did you ever manage to dig up that many obscure box scores, and how long did it take you?
    Thanks. I've been collecting stuff since the 1980s, combing through old microfilm since the mid-1990s, and hitting the digitized historical newspapers extremely hard the last three or four years. A lot of this stuff is a bi-product of the research I've done for the Strat-O-Matic Game Co. We've spent over three years researching 103 players in meticulous detail, focusing exclusively on official Negro League games only. The semi-pro boxes are things I've collected along the way and filed for later use. Last year, as I raced to fill in some of the research gaps, the newspaper combing was really a full-time job. The results of this research, the Strat-O-Matic Negro League set, will be released later this Spring.
    40. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 18, 2009 at 12:00 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    HOMies, not HOMers? I can embrace that if that's their nickname.
    41. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on February 18, 2009 at 12:10 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I've decided I want this book and you will make it for me. If not, I'm going to do a pop up version and it will suck because I have no talent at all and it will be all your fault. Now...GO!
    42. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 18, 2009 at 12:14 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I read the Torres interview at Be Jolly. Interesting stuff.
    43. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship  posted on February 18, 2009 at 12:36 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Scott, that is truly amazing. Over the years I've spent many hundreds of hours poring over my original issues of TSN from the 40's through the 60's, but other than indexing some of my favorite articles with no system, rhyme or reason, I've never tried anything remotely as worthwhile as what you're doing. I seriously hope that you do follow up with a book, and I guarantee I'll buy one of the first copies if you do.
    44. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes posted on February 18, 2009 at 12:47 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    As a side note to your side note of my side note, I discovered that there is actually footage of some Negro League players on DVD. I discovered on a search of Amazon that a DVD set of found footage randomly contains some NL material. The set is pretty expensive, though, so I have yet to talk myself into buying the set as I have no idea how much footage there is. I'm dying to see what there is, though.


    If you're talking about the Treasures from the American Film Archives DVD set, the only NeL thing on there is a short (8 minutes, maybe) silent film featuring Goose Tatum (the gangliest baseball player I ever saw) fooling around before, during, and after a game between the Indianapolis Clowns and the Kansas City Monarchs. We get to see a bit of pepper and line juggling, a bit of shadow ball, Tatum attempting the hidden ball trick by tucking the ball under his ear, Tatum hitting a single, a couple of other little things.
    The whole set is really cool -- Groucho Marx home movies, a family's vacation film including a trans-Atlantic trip on the Hindenburg, Marian Anderson's Lincoln Memorial concert, early versions of "Snow White" and "The Fall of the House of Usher," etc., etc. -- but if you're just looking for NeL material, probably not worth the investment.
    However, I'm pretty sure you can get just the disc you want, via Netflix or your public library, if you want to scope out the Goose...
    45. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella posted on February 18, 2009 at 01:08 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Damn you, OB. I should be doing something more important than reading yest's posts in old Hall of Merit threads!
    46. Obama Bomaye posted on February 18, 2009 at 01:18 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Heh.

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