I believe I had them at 9 or 10 wins this season.

I guessed 9-7.

Overall I liked Lovie. He wasn't a great coach, but he was good enough, I thought. Yeah, he had his flaws, but I agree that the vast majority of the Bears' problems were personnel-related ones (though I do agree with the criticisms of Tice). Angelo neglected that OL for so long it became a horrible joke.

I would like to know, though, why the hell the Bears can't get the plays in on time. This is not a new problem; it's been going on for a few years, but this year it seemed especially awful, and we saw it in yesterday's game a few times. That's sort of basic, isn't it?

So you'd say Rivers is done? I'm not an expert. I was just curious if Phil is really toast. I'm not saying he wasn't.

No, I don't know that he's done. Just skeptical that Norv has been dragging him down the last few years rather than the other way around, given that Norv was also there for most of the good years.

And what do people make of the Colts? 11-5 but outscored on the year. Most of their wins have been close, and they've been blown out a few times.

Paper tigers, but they are playing the equally unimpressive Ravens so they just might win.

I think teams are far too conservative in hiring/firing decisions. Lovie should have been fired years ago. Norv should have been fired years ago. Jason Garrett should obviously be fired. Why waste time?

Norv should never have been hired by San Diego. That was the problem.

I think the Colts and Luck's rookie campaign explain just how easy it is to QB in the NFL if you have decent scheme and a few WRs.

No it says that having Andrew Luck and a soft schedule means you can have an over-inflated record.

Whisenhunt just got fired.

If they can get a QB, they could be pretty good. There's talent on that defense. Tough division though.

If they can get a QB, they could be pretty good.

You're right, but this is also true of about 20 other teams. Therein lies the issue.

tremendous regard for lovie smith. what he managed to do as a coach was reduce the need of a good/great quarterback by building great defense/special teams. and when the bears acquired cutler when cutler has been in the lineup and the defense has been healthy the team has been pretty special. but last year cutler (and forte) went down and that got ugly and then this year the defense tailed off in the second half while the offensive line undermined the offense.

it won't happen but if ted thompson made lovie the packers d-coordinator tomorrow i would be delighted.

The problem with the team has been screamingly obvious for years now - the offensive line is horrible. So the team needs to find a way to work on that while not destroying the things that have been successful. I don't see how firing Lovie Smith acocmplishes that

I don't see how keeping Smith accomplishes it either. He's been the head coach for a very long time and all of that time his offenses have been terrible and his offensive decisions/execution has been terrible. They've tried delegating those responsibilities to others and that has failed as well. I think it is time to put somebody else at the top who can instill the proper spirit in the coaching staff and team in general.

You're right, but this is also true of about 20 other teams. Therein lies the issue.

True, but unlike a lot of other teams, the Cardinals do have a pretty good defense and ST. They really can turn it around in a hurry with a decent QB.

We can't know today but Smith might have been unwilling to make a coaching change on offense and that's what led to him getting fired. That's what happened to Shanahan in Denver, but with the defense.

I think Mike Tanier had a balanced response to the Reid firing.

that video of andy reid talking to the eagles staff this afternoon was amazing. he was smiling, he was joking, he was bouncing around (i'll spare you the rush limbaugh gif). he looked like 1000 lbs had just been taken off his shoulders.

The problem with such a hiring/firing strategy is you're just as likely to end up with the next crap coach as getting the next genius, as SD discovered when it aggressively shitcanned Marty and replaced him with ol' Norv. As Tom says, my guess is the next Bears coach, in total, won't be as good as Lovie.

It was the wrong kind of aggressiveness, and actually wasn't really aggressive at all. 14-2 that year, 2nd round exit (meaning didn't win a playoff game, lost around mid Jan.) But Marty got fired at Feb. 12th according to his wiki, a good month after the playoff lost. During that whole month, both his offensive and defensive coordinators take HC jobs somewhere else, so you couldn't promote in house if you want to, and more importantly all of the good potential HC coaches that year were already signed up by somebody. They had to settle for Norv Turner, and it was really obvious that they had to, because they dicked around the situation for a month, and AJ Smith, the joker who just got fired today decided he hated Marty enough to fire him only when there was no good candidates to interview.

I think the defense of Lovie is that he was fired off of a 10-6 season in which he had a +98 point differential and barely missed the playoffs. He didn't have a _bad_ year last year (8-8), and he won the division at 11-5, +48 in 2010.

The Bears have made the playoffs 1 time in the last 6 years. Lovie made the playoffs 3 times in 9 seasons. End of discussion, that's just unacceptable.

He should have been fired last year when they canned Angelo. The fact that ownership made Emery keep him set the team back a year. There's going to be a lot of change to the roster now. The defense is old.

The Bears have made the playoffs 1 time in the last 6 years. Lovie made the playoffs 3 times in 9 seasons. End of discussion, that's just unacceptable.

The Bears have only had a quarterback for four of those years.

If Houston beat Minnesota last week would he deserve to return for 2013?

as the jeffrey lurie press conference that just ended, i have two thoughts:

1, when talking about what he'll look for in the next coach, he basically just listed chip kelly's resume.

and 2, there is literally nothing he could have said about howie roseman that would have been more reassuring than what he actually said. and what he said was that prior to this offseason, he went back to his notes and that he saw that the scout who was most consistently right in his evaluations of players was howie roseman, and that as a result of that, he restructured the organization to run personnel decisions through roseman.

which is significant because this past draft might the best the eagles have had in the last 20 years.


all-in-all, lurie looks like a million bucks after this. he looks sharp, intelligent, compassionate, and really on the ball. i was not really expecting that.

2, there is literally nothing he could have said about howie roseman that would have been more reassuring than what he actually said

He said that Roseman's bad drafts were Andy's fault, but the one good draft was all Roseman. I'm not buying what he's selling.

But Marty got fired at Feb. 12th according to his wiki, a good month after the playoff lost. During that whole month, both his offensive and defensive coordinators take HC jobs somewhere else, so you couldn't promote in house if you want to,

iirc, marty was fired specifically because his coordinators were hired elsewhere. if his staff was intact, he was going to continue as head coach, but i think the chargers were pissed that cameron and phillips were hired elsewhere, so they fired marty as a result.

You do remember it correctly. AJ Smith FTW:

Mortensen reported that Spanos told Schottenheimer on Monday that it wasn't going to work between him and Smith. Mortensen also reported that Smith began calling Chargers players Monday night, telling them not to panic in the wake of the firing.

The San Diego Union-Tribune, citing unnamed sources, reported that Schottenheimer was fired after trying to interview his brother, Kurt, for the team's vacant defensive coordinator post. Spanos and Smith didn't approve of the move, but Schottenheimer reportedly insisted he had the right to hire his own staff.

The newspaper reported that tension had been building between Schottenheimer and the Chargers' front office after he allowed several of his coaches to interview elsewhere. The front office didn't approve of Schottenheimer's decision.

Not shocking, AJ Smith has been a problem for years.

What could have been:

Beyond Turner, the other known San Diego head coach candidates -- Gary Gibbs (New Orleans), Mike Zimmer (Atlanta), Mike Singletary (San Francisco), Ron Rivera (Chicago) and Rex Ryan (Baltimore) -- are all coaches whose expertise is on the defensive side. All but Singletary are current coordinators.

He said that Roseman's bad drafts were Andy's fault, but the one good draft was all Roseman. I'm not buying what he's selling.

you probably should, because short of roseman having incriminating pictures, there's no reason for lurie put him over as strongly as he did.

lurie didn't just say that roseman was in charge of this past draft, he said that he personally had gone over reports from previous years, and that he personally had so much confidence in roseman's scouting ability that he reorganized the front office so personnel decisions ran through roseman.

that's going above and beyond, making it known that whatever roseman does is on him, as well. he's putting his neck on the line in support of roseman, and i think his explanation for doing so is more reasonable than any other.

But this year was going to be do or die for him and the team clearly lacks the proper vision to do much of anything on the offensive side of the ball. The Bears' defense is getting older, got to look good against some bad teams when fresh while getting some lucky breaks, and then looked mortal in the second half. No real reason to stick with Smith for the rebuilding process.

McCoy is right on, here. The Bears reached a point where they weren't going to get any better under Lovie Smith, and their current level is just not good enough.

He doesn't really bring anything to the table as a head coach that a coordinator can't bring to his area of expertise. He doesn't have an eye for talent, isn't an innovator, isn't anything special as a developer, and is completely helpless when it comes to offense.

I do disagree with parts of this, though. Lovie's strength is that he's fantastic at identifying undervalued defensive players - low-round picks, guys who are out of position, guys who are in the wrong system - and turning them into productive players. The Bears under Lovie consistently took guys like Israel Idonije (undrafted out of Canada), Henry Melton (a RB in college), Nick Roach (a nobody), and Tim Jennings (a castaway by the Colts) and turned them into quite good players. A team that has a bunch of young, raw defensive talent (or needs some) would be smart to scoop up Lovie Smith.

It also means that Roseman better have a good draft or he should be on the hot seat. I would have fired Roseman along with Reid, he helped assemble this disaster of a team.

Lovie Smith is great. I want the Eagles to hire him as head coach today.

It also means that Roseman better have a good draft or he should be on the hot seat.

i don't disagree with that.

I would have fired Roseman along with Reid, he helped assemble this disaster of a team.

the seeds were sown years and years before. this team has had terrible draft after terrible draft, and that didn't start in 2011 (though 2011 was by far the worst of them by far).

During that whole month, both his offensive and defensive coordinators take HC jobs somewhere else, so you couldn't promote in house if you want to, and more importantly all of the good potential HC coaches that year were already signed up by somebody.

The other 7 coaches hired that offseason featured one inarguable success, Tomlin; one guy who's had some success, Whisenhunt; and five guys who didn't work - Cameron, Phillips, Edwards, Kiffin and Petrino. Like I said, whether it was smart aggressive or stupid aggressive, there is considerable risk that what's behind Door No. 2 isn't worth having.

We can't know today but Smith might have been unwilling to make a coaching change on offense and that's what led to him getting fired. That's what happened to Shanahan in Denver, but with the defense

Severely doubt it. Smith has almost no say in the coaching staff.

iirc, marty was fired specifically because his coordinators were hired elsewhere. if his staff was intact, he was going to continue as head coach, but i think the chargers were pissed that cameron and phillips were hired elsewhere, so they fired marty as a result.

That makes no sense. Teams have the right to deny permission for any of their staff to interview for other jobs if they're still under contract. And if the Chargers wanted to keep either Phillips or Cameron, they would have offer a renewal or fire Marty then and hired one of these two earlier. Its not on Marty to keep the staff together, it was on the Chargers.

I do disagree with parts of this, though. Lovie's strength is that he's fantastic at identifying undervalued defensive players - low-round picks, guys who are out of position, guys who are in the wrong system - and turning them into productive players. The Bears under Lovie consistently took guys like Israel Idonije (undrafted out of Canada), Henry Melton (a RB in college), Nick Roach (a nobody), and Tim Jennings (a castaway by the Colts) and turned them into quite good players. A team that has a bunch of young, raw defensive talent (or needs some) would be smart to scoop up Lovie Smith.

The thing is I don't think that is anything special or unique when it comes coaches and their systems. It seems to me every system in football has positional spots filled by unheralded players with unheralded backgrounds. Which is why I said I don't think Smith brings anything to the table that a coordinator wouldn't also bring to the table. His team seems to like him but that generally happens for any good coordinator as well. His strengths aren't unique and his flaws are too many to stay the HC of the Beras.

the seeds were sown years and years before. this team has had terrible draft after terrible draft, and that didn't start in 2011 (though 2011 was by far the worst of them by far).

You know who was involved in that? Howie Roseman.

Severely doubt it. Smith has almost no say in the coaching staff.

Yet another reason to fire him.

That makes no sense.

This is AJ Smith we are talking about. Case in point: he hired Norv Turner.

You know who was involved in that? Howie Roseman.

the way i'm looking at this is, if you take what's being said at face value, roseman could be one of the best GMs in the NFL.

so, if roseman is that good, and you knew for a fact that he is that good, would you still fire him just on general principle for having been in the room for the last few years?

The thing is I don't think that is anything special or unique when it comes coaches and their systems. It seems to me every system in football has positional spots filled by unheralded players with unheralded backgrounds. Which is why I said I don't think Smith brings anything to the table that a coordinator wouldn't also bring to the table. His team seems to like him but that generally happens for any good coordinator as well. His strengths aren't unique and his flaws are too many to stay the HC of the Beras.

Every system does have spots filled by unheralded players, but I would say the Bears have more and better ones (Jennings and Melton both were Pro Bowlers this year). And the Bears did build top-ten defenses consistently under Smith and his signing of castoffs. Results do mean something.

Lovie Smith is an interesting case. There are better coaches in the NFL but the NFL head coaching population has been strongly affected by survivor bias -- you have a few that stick for many years, and many, many coaches who don't last (or who fail multiple times). So I'd say that only about 25-30% of newly hired coaches are as good or better than Smith. So if you fire him, you really have to be confident on your ability to hire a new coach -- which all head offices have, and yet only 25-30% actually manage to do.

the way i'm looking at this is, if you take what's being said at face value, roseman could be one of the best GMs in the NFL.

so, if roseman is that good, and you knew for a fact that he is that good, would you still fire him just on general principle for having been in the room for the last few years?

I am not taking what Lurie said on face value. We don't know for a fact he is any good. Howie Roseman was part of a group of people that was bad at drafting. Lurie thinks he was an exception to the rule. We shall see, but I am skeptical. As I have said before, one of the biggest problems the Eagles have had in recent years is that front office vacancies are always being filled from within. There are no outside voices, no fresh takes on anything. Roseman is the face of that.

The Bears have only had a quarterback for four of those years.

A lot of that was Lovie's choice ("Rex is our quarterback"). Regardless, they made the playoffs one time with Cutler in 4 years. Still fireable.

If Houston beat Minnesota last week would he deserve to return for 2013?

Irrelevant. As I said, he deserved to go last season. He had a "win now" roster with a rapidly approaching expiration date and didn't make the playoffs again. 2 straight collapses (yes, injuries contributed but it's the NFL and that happens).

I do disagree with parts of this, though. Lovie's strength is that he's fantastic at identifying undervalued defensive players - low-round picks, guys who are out of position, guys who are in the wrong system - and turning them into productive players.

To be fair, part of that was need, since so many of the high draft picks on defense have been busts.

Severely doubt it. Smith has almost no say in the coaching staff.

False. He has almost exclusive say. All of the current (or most recent ex) coaching staff (including the job his son has) are his picks. IIRC, Turner was somewhat forced on him after the Shea pick (which was Lovie's) was so disastrous, but that was after his first season. Lovie got to replace Turner when he wanted him gone - Lovie wanted Martz from the start but Angelo didn't buy in right away, and they ended up hiring Martz.

I am not taking what Lurie said on face value. We don't know for a fact he is any good. Howie Roseman was part of a group of people that was bad at drafting. Lurie thinks he was an exception to the rule. We shall see, but I am skeptical. As I have said before, one of the biggest problems the Eagles have had in recent years is that front office vacancies are always being filled from within. There are no outside voices, no fresh takes on anything. Roseman is the face of that.

but that's the thing. lurie isn't just saying that he thinks roseman is an exception, he's explaining why he thinks roseman is an exception.


and though i know you have a much different perception of what's gone on for the past few years than i do, what lurie is saying now about roseman is very consistent with my perception of what's gone on for the past few years. ymmv, but until roseman ##### up, i'm firmly behind him.

We'll have to agree to disagree. We can revisit this after the draft, where we can make some evaluation of the draft and free agency, and then again this time next year. I would love to be wrong about him, I really would. I just have no confidence in him.

A lot of that was Lovie's choice ("Rex is our quarterback"). Regardless, they made the playoffs one time with Cutler in 4 years. Still fireable.

Cutler was only healthy for 3 1/2 of those four years. One of those 3 1/2 years was this year, when then went 10-6, usually enough to get to the playoffs.

If you have to come up with excuses on why a coach hadn't made it to the playoffs over the vast majority of tenure I'd say it is about time to get rid of him.

In a 16 game season, the difference in won/loss records is smaller than it appears. The Colts won 11 games, and were outscored. The Patriots won 12 games, and lost those four games by a total of 11 points (1, 1, 2, and 7). These two seasons are not close toequal, but the W/L records are close.

Judging Lovie Smith (or anybody else) by the times they won 10 vs 9 vs 8 games is not conclusive..I iwould rather judge it on point differential over a series of seasons.

Final point: if there is ever a time where having one superstar at the right position matters in sports, it is QB in the NFL, right now. The rules against hitting the QB, pass inteference, illegal contact, etc., make having the elite QB almost unfair. Consider the QBs in the playoffs this year:

Manning, Brady...easily the two best QBs in the AFC, on easily the two best teams in the AFC. GB is probably the NFC favorite. Griffin, Luck, and Wilson put those tams into the playoffs.

If one is to ding the teams that are firing coaches this week, it is fior this: In a league where the name of the game is getting an elite QB, they have not done so. Unless you have Adrian Peterson, you are not winning many Super Bowls without such a QB.

If you have to come up with excuses on why a coach hadn't made it to the playoffs over the vast majority of tenure I'd say it is about time to get rid of him.

This. I'd say the Ravens are a pretty good comp to the Bears - good to great D, good to better running game, average at best passing game with occasional bouts of success. Harbaugh is now 5 for 5 on playoff appearances.

moses

i think it's an unreasonable standard to get to the playoffs every season.

from espn quoting the bears gm: the club's inability to perennially advance to the postseason.

i know that's easy for a packer fan to write but to always get to the playoffs?

by the way, i get why there is a time to change but for the gm to set this as the expectation really sets up future coaches for failure

making the playoffs is hard.

It seems to me that AJ Smith was also responsible for acquiring the talent that SD has wasted over the years. I'm not sure that you'd want him picking the next coach, but I'm not convinced that he needed to go.
As for Rivers, I think a lot of his issues involved injuries to a makeshift OL. He should bounce back somewhat...

der

i hear that about the offensive line but the packers are playing their third string right tackle, backup center and the left guard has started at that position maybe half the season

If you have to come up with excuses on why a coach hadn't made it to the playoffs over the vast majority of tenure I'd say it is about time to get rid of him.

This. I'd say the Ravens are a pretty good comp to the Bears - good to great D, good to better running game, average at best passing game with occasional bouts of success. Harbaugh is now 5 for 5 on playoff appearances.


Since hiring Lovie the Bears are 5th of the 16 NFC teams in wins. I think that's an accomplishment to be applauded.

I don't have the faintest idea why the Baltimore Ravens are the standard by which Lovie should be judged. If so, there are about 25 teams in the NFL who should be firing their coach this season.

pops

when quoted the number one thing nfl scounts talk about when it comes to the bears is how hard the team plays every game which is regarded as really hard to accomplish in the nfl

again for the pro firing crowd i am not saying that smith deserved to stay. just that with him gone you could be losing a serious leg up on the competition. that consistent high degree of effort on gameday

My post is being misconstrued. It was in response to the excuse that years without a QB should be discounted. The Ravens were my counter example.

Yes, making the playoffs every year is an impossible standard and isn't what I'm saying. Yet, there are teams that make it virtually every year so that when they miss it, it's a big deal - like the Steelers this year, or the Patriots the year Brady was hurt, or when the Packers miss. In the past 6 years - with the Bears making 1 playoff appearance, the following teams made the playoffs more often than the Bears: NE 5, BAL 5, IND 5, GB 4, ATL 4, PIT 4, CIN 3, MIN 3, NO 3, PHI 3, SD 3, HOU 2, SEA 2, DEN 2, SF 2, NYG 2, NYJ 2, ARI 2, TEN 2. That's 19 teams, 3 of which also fired their coaches yesterday (and another their GM). Another 7 teams have made one appearance in the last 6 years (WSH, DET, KC, DAL, MIA, CAR & JAC). Regular season wins are great, and you need them to get to the playoffs - but really, getting to the playoffs is all that matters here and the Bears are almost in the bottom 3rd of the league in the department. There's no reason the Bears shouldn't be one of the more successful teams, and yet, here we are. In the last 20 years, the Bears have 4 playoff wins, and it's been almost 30 years since their last title.

In Lovie's infamous introductory news conference, he said he had 3 goals for the Bears: beat the Packers, win the Division, and win the Superbowl. The Bears are 1-8 in their last 9 against GB, won the division 3 times out of 9 (once in the last 6 years), and didn't win the SB. By Lovie's own criteria, he failed.

As for Emery's quote, well, what organization isn't going to say their goal is to make the playoffs every year? I see it as nothing more than that and the failures to get there at all compared to the average team.

when quoted the number one thing nfl scounts talk about when it comes to the bears is how hard the team plays every game which is regarded as really hard to accomplish in the nfl

I'm not saying he's a bad coach. I'm sure he'll get another job quickly, and that team will likely improve. You have talked about the need to change messages from leadership before, and 9 years is a long time in the NFL. Lovie's a players coach too, so perhaps there's an immediate benefit just from that perspective. Only coach now with a longer tenure is Belichick (and Reid was too, before his firing).

moses

the hazard for a new coach is that you have a group of veteran stars who are intensely loyal to lovie smith

could be tough

True. But there's a good chance a lot of them are gone anyway. It's an old team, especially on defense.

moses

is the new coach going to be allowed to rebuild since the gm yammered about the playoffs?