Manuel later added "And who is Karim Garcia?"

EDIT: Seriously what a pointless response. Manuel sounds like a sportswriter responding to a question about Lincecum and Cain's Hall chances.

Team Lincecum!

Maybe Manuel should have kept his mouth shut to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. But, truthfully, that comment doesn't seem unreasonable. I can't fault someone who says they can't differentiate a good career from a great career until the career is over. Is it semantics? Maybe, but it's not an unreasonable view. I also understand why a manager wants to avoid giving all the credit to the opposing pitchers when his hitters are slumping. You don't want your hitters to have the mindset that they can't hit the best pitchers.

Maybe Manuel should have kept his mouth shut to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. But, truthfully, that comment doesn't seem unreasonable. I can't fault someone who says they can't differentiate a good career from a great career until the career is over.

Lincecum has won back to back Cy Youngs. By any historical standard, that's a great pitcher.

“They’re good pitchers. You say they’re great pitchers? To me, I don’t know how great they are,” Manuel said, as quoted in the Philadelphia Daily News.

When you say somebody is great, I look up there and tonight I saw a 90 (mph) fastball, 92 at best (from Lincecum). I saw a good changeup. I saw a breaking ball and I saw a cutter ... but at the same time, we can beat that. I’ve seen us beat that.”

it should be pointed out that charlie manuel is a pretty big professional wrestling fan.


also, that he's right. cain isn't great, and lincecum is definitely touchable when he's topping out at 92.

Charlie is just grumpy that they couldn't dump Domonic Browm on anybody.

Charlie sees two or three pitchers just as good as those guys every day. Lincecum and Cain aren't doing anything special compared to Halliday, Lee, and Hamels.

Gretchen Benji, stop trying to make "Domonic Brown sucks" happen! It's not going to happen!

also, that he's right. cain isn't great, and lincecum is definitely touchable when he's topping out at 92.

If you're going to base your argument around velocity, at least pick on someone who doesn't have more of it than Halladay. Just saying.

Manuel is right. Lincecum has been very good but not great the last two years.

Here is an interesting list

Play Index Comps

RHP since 1961 with similar IP through age 27 with at least a 125 ERA+

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Isn't saying they are merely 'good' more insulting to his hitters? He could have said "yeah, we got beat by some great pitchers out there, sometimes you just gotta tip your hat..." Instead he's basically saying his team can't even hit 'good' pitching.

Well, yeah, but Jose Lima shut out the Cardinals in the playoffs once.

This is good stuff. A real, good-old fashioned rivalry is clearly brewing here. The whole narrative is building: Phillies are the huge favorites last year, going for a repeat and then they get shocked by the Giants. Then the Giants acquire Beltran -- just as the two teams are playing each other (thank you schedule-makers), and then the Phillies make a move to respond (Pence). Now Manuel starts some talk, and the Giants respond.

Perfect. Everything you need for a build-up to an NLCS re-match.

As for Manuel's comments, they're pretty jerkish. Good for him. Condensed version: "You ain't nuthin'." What's wrong with that? Baseball thrives on filling up column inches with personality and back-and-forth, and good for Lincecum for saying (condensed verson), "Our nuthin' beat your asses."

It's supposed to be entertaining. This is entertaining.

This is good stuff. A real, good-old fashioned rivalry is clearly brewing here. The whole narrative is building: Phillies are the huge favorites last year, going for a repeat and then they get shocked by the Giants. Then the Giants acquire Beltran -- just as the two teams are playing each other (thank you schedule-makers), and then the Phillies make a move to respond (Pence). Now Manuel starts some talk, and the Giants respond.

the two teams also play again next thursday-sunday.

I've got no issues with what Manuel said because he defined how he'd apply greatness -- requires longevity. Was Doc Gooden a great pitcher, or a pitcher who had some great years?

That said, I thought Lincecum's response won the round handily.

also, that he's right. cain isn't great, and lincecum is definitely touchable when he's topping out at 92.

But Lincecum is more right because the winners dictate history, and the phillies were the losers.

Was Doc Gooden a great pitcher, or a pitcher who had some great years?

I dunno, but people had the damnedest time scoring on him in 1985. Manuel's being a butt-face, probably because his team lost.

Were you there in 1985? Doc Gooden was not a great pitcher. That would have been insulting to Doc Gooden. Doc Gooden was a god among us.

In an out-of-left-field comment...

Anyone else imagine Manuel running in from left field to say this to a bunch of reporters, then dashing off again?

Summary:

Manuel: You ain't all that.
Lincecum: Scoreboard, bee-yatch.

"I got news for you Mr. Manuel, you haven't heard the last of me. You may think I'm #### now, but someday you're gonna be sorry you dissed me. I'm gonna pitch somewhere else and every time that I pitch against you I'm gonna stick it up your ######' ass!"

What Timmah's response should have been.

also, that he's right. cain isn't great, and lincecum is definitely touchable when he's topping out at 92.

He won a Cy Young with an average fastball of 92.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=5705&position=P

[iHe won a Cy Young with an average fastball of 92.]

So did Maddux.

Were you there in 1985? Doc Gooden was not a great pitcher. That would have been insulting to Doc Gooden. Doc Gooden was a god among us.

Yup, and in his age 19-22 years (Lincecum was 23 @ call-up) he ran a 146 ERA+ (Timmeh's now at 139), yet nobody's arguing for him to be in the next hall up from the HoVG.

Here is an interesting list

It's easy to forget how good Matt Morris was.

Yup, and in his age 19-22 years (Lincecum was 23 @ call-up) he ran a 146 ERA+ (Timmeh's now at 139), yet nobody's arguing for him to be in the next hall up from the HoVG.

So Manuel won't consider anyone great until they've already passed their greatness? Would be be singing a different tune if he were facing Nolan Ryan--at 64 and with heart trouble?

Did Manuel ever say Moyer was "great"? Huh, pothead? Huh?

Here is an interesting list

Holy cow, Mussina gave up an ass-load of HR... a rate almost double that of other pitchers on the list.

And yes, Matt Morris gutted out some fair-to-middlin' seasons after his injury, but he was a hoss in his youth.

Albert Pujols wouldn't be impressed either.

I've never understood what motivates someone to denigrate their opponent after the fact. "He's not so great." Yeah, but he just beat you, so doesn't that make you even farther from great? And even if you've won, well, if the other guy is crap, where's the glory in beating him? All my opponents are world-beaters, and I'm just proud to have had the good fortune to be on the same field/court/rink/pitch/course/planet with them.

Hey, I got this humility schtick down pat.