Kessler even says at the end that he wasn't sure whether to give him any pinocchios, but just decided to anyway because his statement sounds "paradoxical" and he's being "too clever." I'd call that projection.

Ok because I read into it as him being more critical of the White House proclaiming this as a victory when it seems like that they along with Congress "punted" for another 2 months of posturing.

The Israeli people certainly deserve peace, safety and our support towards those ends. They also deserve supporters who are willing to question whether the governments current strategy is actually bringing them any closer to peace and safety.

I still want to know why the ump is wearing a sweater.

I still want to know why folks considered the cartoon to be "unduly inflammatory".

Umpires in sweaters are clear trolls.

Thx Rickey/Sam, but if JR or HW could explain what they considered inflammatory, it would be appreciated.

Israel is now facing a conflict between being a Jewish state and a democracy. They are not choosing democracy.

Since a democracy would be a death (or exile) sentence for Israeli Jews, can you blame them?

I'm not Jewish but my father had some Holocaust survivors for friends. Their stories, which included those of a small boy who escaped the Nazis by crawling out from under a pile of his dead relatives and then hid in a forest until American troops finally arrived, a man who suffered bizarre painful medical experiments, two men who were tortured, and a woman who was raped not only for more times but for more days than she could count have made me very sympathetic to Israel. There are, of course, over six million other reasons as well.

I believe we're all willing to stipulate that the Nazis were bad people and refuse to invite them to any dinner parties.

Leaving out that they are the only democracy in the Middle East

Turkey exists.

and our only ally there

Turkey still exists.

Israel deserves our support in the name of justice not only because of what happened before but also to make damned sure that it never, ever happens again.

Israel deserves US support only insofar as support of Israel advances US goals in the region or US positions on international law and cooperation between nations. The crimes of Germans, 75 years past, is not an issue at hand.

It's laughable that we in the US call this the Israel/Palestine conflict, as if there were two equal parties. The Isreali position is so dominant that there is only really one party to the conflict. The only thing that will resolve it is Israel choosing to resolve the conflict themselves, or international pressure finally getting so great that the choice is forced upon them. The Palestinians have always been irrelevant.

This goes to my point earlier about nonviolent resistance. If a true leader emerged who could convince the Palestinians to adopt a serious nonviolent resistance strategy, the international pressure on Israel would ramp up quickly and Israel would be forced to cut a deal in a very short period of time.

Wouldn't Egypt be considered a democracy and an ally of the US?

Turkey exists.

Heh... The Turks really get no respect...

IIRC, the first addition to NATO beyond the founding members - with a direct border against the USSR, no less, a fully functioning democracy... and all anyone in the US ever seems to think of regarding Turkey is either the repulsing of the Ottoman invaders into the Balkans 500 years ago or the movie Midnight Express.

This goes to my point earlier about nonviolent resistance. If a true leader emerged who could convince the Palestinians to adopt a serious nonviolent resistance strategy, the international pressure on Israel would ramp up quickly and Israel would be forced to cut a deal in a very short period of time.

Israel will not let this happen.

The crimes of Germans, 75 years past, is not an issue at hand.

The crimes weren't merely committed by Germans, and one is hard-pressed to see why the crimes are not "an issue at hand."

In what sense are the Holocaust and the ancillary atrocities and cowardly passivities (*) of the WWII era not "an issue at hand." That's ridiculous.

(*) Some engaged in by the United States.

The crimes weren't merely committed by Germans, and one is hard-pressed to see why the crimes are not "an issue at hand."

In what sense are the Holocaust and the ancillary atrocities and cowardly passivities (*) of the WWII era not "an issue at hand." That's ridiculous.

(*) Some engaged in by the United States.

No one living bears any guilt for the events of 70 years ago. However, they certainly are a relevant issue in regards to the reasonable fears of the Israelis. Just like the Soviet Terrors and genocide make Polish and Ukranians fearful of being ruled by Russians.

Wouldn't Egypt be considered a democracy and an ally of the US?

I intentionally avoided Egypt, another democratishy nation in the region that is, yes, an ally of the United States. I did this in an attempt to avoid unhinged tangents about the Muslim Brotherhood and Egypt post-Arab Spring.

The crimes weren't merely committed by Germans,

Pedantic much?

I believe we are all willing to stipulate that the Nazis were bad men who shouldn't be invited to cocktail parties. Even if we still have a soft spot for ska.

and one is hard-pressed to see why the crimes are not "an issue at hand."

As a historical marker, sure. As a marker of cultural sensitivities, sure. As a justification for the state of Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Levant?

No.

No one living bears any guilt for the events of 70 years ago.

See. I'm not even making a Ratzinger jibe here! (Because you're actually right on the merits on this occasion.)

Wouldn't Egypt be considered a democracy and an ally of the US?

It's never been both at the same time. It was hardly a democracy when Mubarak was in power. It may already be or eventually become a democracy. That's in question. What's in question as well is whether it will continue to be an ally of the US whether or not it becomes a democracy.

I assume all these purported Palestinians are welcome in Jordan, their historical homeland.

See. I'm not even making a Ratzinger jibe here! (Because you're actually right on the merits on this occasion.)

Since when has that stopped you? Turning over a new leaf for your New Year's resolution?

I assume all these purported Palestinians are welcome in Jordan, their historical homeland.

Your position is duly noted.

As a historical marker, sure. As a marker of cultural sensitivities, sure. As a justification for the state of Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Levant?

No.

As you are wont to do, you've simply regurgitated provocative language -- OMG TEH ETHNIC CLEANSING!!! -- you only apply to white people and Jews. Everything they do is couched in such language, everything bad done by non-white people is somehow the fault of white people and Jews.

You've become a broken record, one that sounds (credit to DMN) suspiciously like the collected compositions of Katrina vanden Heuvel's cabin boy. Snore.


Pedantic much?

I believe we are all willing to stipulate that the Nazis were bad men who shouldn't be invited to cocktail parties. Even if we still have a soft spot for ska.



I guess I wasn't "pedantic" enough, since it didn't seem to register. The crimes of that hideous era were committed by nations and peoples other than merely the Germans.

Since when has that stopped you? Turning over a new leaf for your New Year's resolution?

God no. I just gave you a break because you were supporting my case in this instance. Expect no mercy going forward.

I guess I wasn't "pedantic" enough, since it didn't seem to register. The crimes of that hideous era were committed by nations and peoples other than merely the Germans.

The Germans certainly had non-German collaborators, but many Germans suffered as well. Why don't we just say "Nazi atrocities"?

Heh... The Turks really get no respect...

Hey, Turkey conquered Europe! Absorbed almost all of Russia, took all of the Austrian empire, has all of Italy, and most if not all of Germany. No one can stand up against the mighty juggernaut that is Turkey!

I assume all these purported Palestinians are welcome in Jordan, their historical homeland.

The Golda Meir explanation, "There were no such thing as Palestinians." What's your point?

There were Arabs living in what has become Israel for thousands of years before the establishment of the state of Israel, and I'm sure those Arabs would happily become part of Jordan or Syria if that involved Jordan or Syria getting back all the land that was theirs before the British and French mandates.

I guess I wasn't "pedantic" enough, since it didn't seem to register. The crimes of that hideous era were committed by nations and peoples other than merely the Germans.

The genocide of West African slavery was committed by more powers of the day than America. The genocide of the American Indians was committed by more than just Americans. The genocide of the Jews (and Roma) was committed by more than just the Germans. (There was a long, lovingly established history of killing Jews in Europe long before Hitler came around, of course. Christendom loved them some pogroms.)

In the conversation at hand, with specific regard to the Holocaust, it is generally understood that "Nazis" and "Germans" are acceptable shorthand for "the evils of men that led to Buchenwald."

As you are wont to do, you've simply regurgitated provocative language -- OMG TEH ETHNIC CLEANSING!!! -- you only apply to white people and Jews. Everything they do is couched in such language, everything bad done by non-white people is somehow the fault of white people and Jews.

I've never said anything of the sort, Billy Boy. I'm simply using terms to describe X as X, regardless of who is perpetrating X.

God no. I just gave you a break because you were supporting my case in this instance. Expect no mercy going forward.

Thank God! I thought you'd had a stroke or something.

Apparently, one of the Democrats voted for Colin Powell for Minority Speaker.

Thank God! I thought you'd had a stroke or something.

In which Snapper admits that it would require significant limitation of oxygen to the brain to make a man compliment the Pope...

I'll just offer without intending to tweak anyone directly (or perhaps intending to tweak everyone) --

It's interesting to read the opinions of what role the horrific events of the Holocaust 75 years ago (and let's be fair and go further - the simmering lead-up in various forms to that culminating horror that spans centuries) should have on our judgment of Israel, leeway it should perhaps provide them on foreign policy, etc...

...then juxtapose that against say... the AA community's reaction to some of the various voter suppression/'voter verification' efforts of the lasst few cycles.

I'll grant the situations are not directly analogous - mainly because the freed slaves of 150 years ago weren't smart enough to demand Alabama as a homeland, I guess...

But - I'm betting that if I took this:

Israel deserves our support in the name of justice not only because of what happened before but also to make damned sure that it never, ever happens again.

and simply translated the exact same thought process into an objection to say -- voter ID laws, i.e:

Black voters deserves our support in the name of justice not only because of what happened before but also to make damned sure that it never, ever happens again.

We'd have an argument.

My own personal cards on the table?

I, yes, tend to agree that Israel has a unique need for and reason to think it needs an extra level of security that other nations don't.... However, I also think the same applies to Native Americans... African-Americans... etc. I also think it applies to Palestinians who were uprooted so this new nation could be formed.

I assume all these purported Palestinians are welcome in Jordan, their historical homeland.

The Golda Meir explanation, "There were no such thing as Palestinians." What's your point?

Well where's their state in Jordan? The Heebs are supposed to give up what they've fought for, how about the monarchy in Jordan which professes such deep sympathy for the Palestinian plight? That should be a no-brainer, as the freedom-fighters have just as much historic claim to that land and the current rightful owner is openly supportive of their cause. So, you know, draw it up Abdullah, what are you waiting for? People are suffering - SUFFERING - to reclaim their land from you.

Unless, of course...well, I think you know the real reason now don't jou?

There were Arabs living in what has become Israel for thousands of years before the establishment of the state of Israel

And there were Israelis living there before the Arabs, certainly before Muslims, those Johnny-come-lately cultists.

I'm sure those Arabs would happily become part of Jordan or Syria if that involved Jordan or Syria getting back all the land that was theirs before the British and French mandates.

Sounds like someone wants Jordan and Syria to lose another war, perhaps a little more decisively this time. Good thing you bellicose hotheads in comfy chairs don't have the ear of the American natives, who were, after all, here first.

Leaving out that they are the only democracy in the Middle East

not true

plus, "democracy"
in 1967 they captured the West Bank and Gaza, did the people LIVING THERE ever get the right to vote in Israeli election while those areas were Israeli controlled? NO. However, Jews who settled in those areas still got to vote in Israeli elections
do you see anything amiss with that on democratic grounds?

Israel was created to provide a homeland for a persecuted ethnic group that had suffered genocide at the hands of a pack of violent Nazi lunatics.

personally what I think should have been done was carve out a region of Germany (perhaps one bordering France or Luxembourg) and given that to European Jews- the Germans living there could have been expelled, they had it coming, and besides expelling Germans from regions in Europe in the late 40s was the acceptable thing to do...

No instead, what was done was a million refugees were dropped smack dab in the middle of a population that had nothing to do with the Holocaust...

Sounds like someone wants Jordan and Syria to lose another war, perhaps a little more decisively this time. Good thing you bellicose hotheads in comfy chairs don't have the ear of the American natives, who were, after all, here first.

Sounds like someone's a militant supporter of the Israeli state and has no moral compunction about any crimes that state commits against others. Because, you know, Jerusalem was totally Jewish in 90 AD and ####.

personally what I think should have been done was carve out a region of Germany

Prague.

No instead, what was done was a million refugees were dropped smack dab in the middle of a population that had nothing to do with the Holocaust...

The population that had nothing to do with the Holocaust had no interest in living in peace with the Jews that came to Palestine before the 1940s.

Because, you know, Jerusalem was totally Jewish in 90 AD and ####.

I didn't see any formal statute of limitations in #174, to which I was replying. Do you want to offer one?

(178) Sam the way your brain works I'd think a temporary lack of O2 can only help :-)

I didn't see any formal statute of limitations in #174, to which I was replying. Do you want to offer one?

Nope. We should give it all back to the Assyrians, clearly.

No instead, what was done was a million refugees were dropped smack dab in the middle of a population that had nothing to do with the Holocaust...

Come on. That's more than a little misleading.

I also think it applies to Palestinians who were uprooted so this new nation could be formed.

Some were uprooted. Some chose to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies, so that when the Jews were pushed into the sea, they could come back and claim the property for themselves.

a million refugees were dropped smack dab in the middle of a population that had nothing to do with the Holocaust

Not quite. Jews have been living in the Palestine Mandate forever, and were moving back there long before the Holocaust. Between 1944 and 1946, there were around 550,000 to 600,000 Jews in that area, many of whom had long been there. After the establishment of Israel, many more moved in.

Meanwhile, Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip and Jordan controlled the West Bank from 1948-1967. At no time did they make any effort to turn those territories over to the Palestinians as a state. If they had, the dynamic might have been far different.

Now, Israel needs to finish disengaging from Gaza and the West Bank, let the Palestinians have a state, tell the Settlers to get out or accept a new landlord, and make it clear that attacks on Israel from the State of Palestine will be responded to, vigorously.

For now, Israel seems incapable of doing so. One can only hope that it will change.

Nope. We should give it all back to the Assyrians, clearly.

The Assyrians were the Nazis of the ancient Middle East. Lord Byron wrote a pretty mean poem about them.

The population that had nothing to do with the Holocaust had no interest in living in peace with the Jews that came to Palestine before the 1940s.

which kind of indicates that bringing in a million more could be a bit problematic dontcha think?

and the Lakota in the 19th century really had no interest in living in peace with "us" IN THEIR LAND
oh they didn't mind the odd trapper who came by every now and then, but when people just started moving in, fencing off land and saying, "mine" that kind of ticked them off, they fought us
and lost, badly
in the end it sucked to be the Lakota who simply had less military power.

The Palestinians are in the same situation that the Lakota were in, and the Apaches, and the Seminoles,
hell Snapper can relate to this- the Palestinians are in the same, if not worse position than Irish Catholics were in, IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, Ireland, when the Brits took over and decided that only Protestants (i.e., English Settlers, Scottish settlers) could own land and vote.


Uniquely, some people expect the Palestinians to be the only people in the history of the world to meekly accept that status in their own land, without complaint.

I'm not saying the Pales haven't behaved badly, they have, they've also badly miscalculated, but there are very very very few people on earth who would meekly sit back and let some other people come in, take over, turn you into 2nd class citizens in your own land, and not make some kind of fuss about it.

Some were uprooted. Some chose to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies, so that when the Jews were pushed into the sea, they could come back and claim the property for themselves.

Asking seriously, not snarkily, do you have an opinion of what these percentages are?

Uniquely, some people expect the Palestinians to be the only people in the history of the world to meekly accept that status in their won land, without complaint.

I think the opposite is true -- the Palestinians' complaints have been taken far more seriously than almost any other people who have been occupied and/or uprooted. (and I agree with Srul that those claims have merit and that Israel needs to get out of the West Bank and Gaza.)

Meanwhile, Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip and Jordan controlled the West Bank from 1948-1967. At no time did they make any effort to turn those territories over to the Palestinians as a state.

Sure, things could have been different in lots of ways
The original partition plan could have been accepted, the Arabs got the land where they were 50%+, and the Jews got the land where they were 50%+, the Jews agreed, the Arabs said no way in hell, that's on them (and many, not the yahoos running Hamas of course, but many others have realized and admitted that was a mistake)- Hell Lebanon was also specifically gerrymandered as well to create a country with a non-Muslim majority... at the time it seemed to work, but blew up big time in the 70s.

Jordan *could* have taken everyone living the land controlled by Jordan, said everyone was a Jordanian citizen, able to buy/sell land, work etc... but they didn't. So could Egypt- hell with Nasser's pan-Arab philosophy he *SHOULD* have been the one to do it, nope.

So yes, a big reason we have this problem NOW, is because of mistakes made 60+ years ago.

Asking seriously, not snarkily, do you have an opinion of what these percentages are?

No idea. No idea how many fled in terror after Deir Yassin (and other, less well-known massacres); how many self-deported because they refused to live under a Jewish administration; how many left because they thought they would be returning; and how many fled the fighting because that is what large civilian populations do, when they can, if a war is coming.

I think the number who left, expecting to come back and take over, is probably a lot less than the number who just wanted to get out of the way of the fighting.

Jordan *could* have taken everyone living the land controlled by Jordan, said everyone was a Jordanian citizen, able to buy/sell land, work etc... but they didn't. So could Egypt- hell with Nasser's pan-Arab philosophy he *SHOULD* have been the one to do it, nope.

They didn't need to make them citizens of Egypt or Jordan; they could have given the land over and turned it into a Palestinian state.

I am familiar with David's common tactics to wrapping himself in legalistic parsing to avoid honest debate. It's not a new trick for him. No one with a passing familiarity with me would have honestly misread my statement above. David is parsing, because lawyers gotta hide behind something to prevent folks from noticing their lack of intellectual robes.

JSLF was being charitable. Your "wrong" can really only be interpreted the way I did; the only way to interpret it as something else is to assume you're an incompetent writer who can't say what you mean. Of course, that's true, and none of this changes the fact that your understanding of Israel is embarrassingly wrong.

Except no sizeable or influential segment of the Israeli population supports driving Arabs out of the region, or even the West Bank.

You mean except the Settler movement, which runs the entire right wing policy goal setting process, which is strongly supported by the majority government of Israel, from Lieberman through Netenyahu?

See, like this. I apologize for accusing you of getting your information from the Nation; this is so cartoonish and sophomoric that it must come from Mad Magazine or something.

Is this seriously how you interact with others David? No wonder nobody listens to you anymore

In domestic news, the House GOP let the Violence Against Women Act expire. But women should definitely vote Republican and there is no War On Women. (The updated VAWA also had more protection for transgendered and male victims of domestic violence, which is sorely needed.)

I think the opposite is true -- the Palestinians' complaints have been taken far more seriously than almost any other people who have been occupied and/or uprooted. (and I agree with Srul that those claims have merit and that Israel needs to get out of the West Bank and Gaza.)

There is also Tibet, though there wasn't much uprooting there in reality.