I'd consider myself pretty down the middle (but really, who doesn't?). I do tend towards conservative here just to test ideas out. I think I'm one of the few people that posts here to be wrong rather than to be right. It's the person that turns out to be wrong that's the one who actually benefits from a discussion, after all.

Of course, to benefit from being wrong you actually have to be able to admit to being wrong.

we need to stop letting people choose to not be schooled because the cost of their choice of staying ignorant is to great

So you favor increased government subsidies for college tuition? It seems like everyone is already going who possibly can afford to go, and driving themselves into six-figure debt in order to do so. It's been considered essential for at least a generation. People who don't go are hardly "choosing" not to.

With the shape of the economy that we now have, finishing high school hardly matters if you're not continuing to college.

So you favor increased government subsidies for college tuition? It seems like everyone is already going who possibly can afford to go, and driving themselves into six-figure debt in order to do so. It's been considered essential for at least a generation. People who don't go are hardly "choosing" not to.

Subsidies don't make college more affordable; they just drive prices — and college debt — higher and higher.

With the shape of the economy that we now have, finishing high school hardly matters if you're not continuing to college.

This is a dubious proposition. There are all sorts of jobs that are available to HS grads that are unavailable to, or very difficult to obtain by, non-HS grads (police, fire dept., and other civil service jobs; military; trades; etc.).

vaux

i would disagree. there are other options than college if the individual is willing to commit or have others commit on his/her behalf.

college is not for everyone nor is it intended for everyone. frankly, i think the 'modern' college/university is an overpriced stalling device where too little learning and too much leisure is experienced by the participants.

It can't be that, unless you accomplish every goal that everyone associated with the party says you can/will do, a particular election cycle is a failure. If so, didn't the GOP fail even more miserably?

If this is true, can I get my check back from Priebus?

college is not for everyone nor is it intended for everyone. frankly, i think the 'modern' college/university is an overpriced stalling device where too little learning and too much leisure is experienced by the participants.


Agree 100%. We need a more German system where some students learn real trades, rather than go to a over priced university.

i think the 'modern' college/university is an overpriced stalling device where too little learning and too much leisure is experienced by the participants.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Subsidies don't make college more affordable; they just drive prices — and college debt — higher and higher.

I actually think this is only partially true. Some economists did a study and showed that this was only about 10-20% of the price rise. Most had to do with status and competition as well as the return of investment of education. I will have to look up the study.

i would disagree. there are other options than college if the individual is willing to commit or have others commit on his/her behalf.

college is not for everyone nor is it intended for everyone. frankly, i think the 'modern' college/university is an overpriced stalling device where too little learning and too much leisure is experienced by the participants.

I agree with this, but I think those other options are fast disappearing. The society has shifted to a "college or nothing" model, which has caused training that ought to be provided by trade schools to be folded into universities at university prices.

Whether subsidies have driven costs up or not, that horse is out of the barn. Tuition prices are not going to come back down, and students need to pay them somehow. It's the same as anything else--prices do not come down once they've gone up, no matter the reason.

vaux

nothing is static nor should we accept that condition

frankly, i think the 'modern' college/university is an overpriced stalling device where too little learning and too much leisure is experienced by the participants.

Yeah, all those students parading up and down the main drag in their raccoon coats, swallowing goldfish and stuffing into phone booths, chanting "boolah boolah" at all hours, it's offensive.

Whether subsidies have driven costs up or not, that horse is out of the barn. Tuition prices are not going to come back down, and students need to pay them somehow. It's the same as anything else--prices do not come down once they've gone up, no matter the reason.

That's what people were saying about the real estate market just 5 years ago. With more and more people — including disgruntled unemployed college grads — agitating about the high cost of college and the decreasing ROI, there could be some bumpy times ahead for U.S. colleges.

nothing is static nor should we accept that condition

I whole-heartedly agree with that, too.

Some economists did a study and showed that this was only about 10-20% of the price rise. Most had to do with status and competition as well as the return of investment of education. I will have to look up the study.

Found it. Kevin Carey, the director of the Education Policy Program at the New America Foundation. I do not vouch for it. Don't know the bias of this.

Thanks; I'll try to find it at their site.

Meanwhile, here's a graph of college tuition, home prices, and U.S. CPI since 1978.

I'd consider myself pretty down the middle (but really, who doesn't?).

Me. I am proudly progressive (left, liberal). Obama is too centrist for me, but he is the best we have so go him.

And Harvey's in broad strokes I agree with you regarding education.

I think a good solution re:education is to provide for two years of post-secondary schooling. You can take that schooling at a trade school, at a community college, or use the amount that would be paid at a CC towards university. This means that for someone getting a certification it covers the whole cost and for someone going to university, they get a small stipend.

tomorrow my g.f. and i will be having a really awesome dinner at saddle peak lodge in malibu, and she will want me to say what i'm thankful for.

would this be a bad time for me to say i'm thankful for this crazy country of ours and the weirdos who argue about anything and everything on btf?

A big part of the rise of education is the crazy requirements and expectations of what a 'school' or 'campus' is. Its no longer a rundown building looking like its almost going to fall down by a breeze, its a monument to the city and state its in. And that costs money.

edit: And this isn't just colleges, visit a new high school, or heck, Elementary school. They're ridiculousness.

Rain Man territory.

Well, I am a Reds fan. Definitely not into Judge Wapner though.

Mostly it is being good at remembering names (or, in this case, the analog, handles) and paying attention to what people write.

Well, I am a Reds fan. Definitely not into Judge Wapner though.

Mostly it is being good at remembering names (or, in this case, the analog, handles) and paying attention to what people write.

Definitely, definitely remembering handles.

would this be a bad time for me to say i'm thankful for this crazy country of ours

No.

and the weirdos who argue about anything and everything on btf?

Started holiday drinking tonight, I see.

I like the Bitter Mouse, SteveF, Harveys trifecta.

I may understand their leanings to a point, but I also can easily be surprised 2 weeks from now by any of their posts as well. I say that as a high compliment to all 3.

I give Thanks to all, in fact....

I guess this is a good enough point to remind you ####### that I am not actually a liberal. #########.

Treder's a liberal. Andy's a liberal. Lassus...oh, poor Lassus. Def totes liberally 90's era pony tail guy. Me?

#### off.

This conversation is not about me.

This conversation bores me.

I've been drinking.

Started holiday drinking tonight, I see.

no, but give me a minute.

I'd consider myself pretty down the middle (but really, who doesn't?).

Me. I am proudly progressive (left, liberal). Obama is too centrist for me, but he is the best we have so go him.

That's me too.

phredbird,

I am thankful for BTF as well and the community here. Even when we disagree there is a shared spirit here that is not present many other places. And that's really nice.

And thanks Howie I appreciate the kind words.

I am thankful for BTF as well and the community here. Even when we disagree there is a shared spirit here that is not present many other places.

I see you have started the holiday drinking early too.

Subsidies don't make college more affordable; they just drive prices — and college debt — higher and higher.

One thing I have noticed is that the things the government subsidizes all increase in price at greater than inflation. Namely, higher education, medical care, and housing. There are some other factors as well in terms of lack of substitution and inequality of information (esp in medical), but I think Joe is making a salient point here. (Liberals, please don't kill me for saying that)

One thing I have noticed is that the things the government subsidizes all increase in price at greater than inflation. Namely, higher education, medical care, and housing.

As opposed to, what, food and gasoline?

I'm not sure why you include house prices as increasing faster than inflation. You can find a chart of the Case-Shiller 100 year index here. The index was essentially flat for 50 years after WWII. The only real deviation is the housing bubble, and that had nothing to do with government "subsidies".

As opposed to, what, food and gasoline?

Gasoline pricing is skewed by a cartel. Over the longer run, the price of food is lower. Over the past 3-5 years, food costs have increased, but lots of commodities increase over the short run. Medical care and higher education have seen much higher increases in cost for a much longer period. Look at the last 20-30 years.

Gasoline pricing is skewed by a cartel. Over the longer run, the price of food is lower.

Well I'm glad the big librul gummint don't subsidize neither of them.

The problem with the title of the linked article is its specious use of "Allows".

Walmart Allows Its Workers To Unionize In Other Countries, Just Not In The United States

Walmart was given little choice, in those cases. It's only in the US, where it's more able to buy the appropriate legislation, that it can pseudolegally circumvent unionization.

"Allows", indeed.

but part of the problem is the complete inability of many on the right to comprehend that a social welfare safety net/ workplace regulations/ environmental regulations system IS NOT SOCIALISM

come back to me when there is an actual serious effort at nationalization, collectivization and curbing of private property rights etc.

In all seriousness, it's as productive as getting drunk and spending the evening explaining things to your dog.

Honestly, the regard liberals have for the intelligence of the people they are trying to "educate" is stunningly low.

Gee, Ray, I don't think peoples' regard for your intelligence is stunningly low...
.

And soon will be even for Americans who are above that line. We're getting close to the point where staying at home without a lower-income job brings as much money (welfare) in as actually having the job (wages/benefits) does. In that case, there is utterly no real incentive to work.

It's an interesting point, both on it's own and in light of comments earlier in the thread on the possibility of a future where structural unemployment due to mechanization and robotics runs around 40%.

You're not the man for the job since admitting facts isn't your deal, but it would be interesting to hear an intelligence on the right come to grips with modern capitalism's need for a reserve pool of labor (namely, a sizable percentage of unemployed people whose presence suppresses wages both in lean and boom times, and who are ready to hop to when booms require sudden injections of cheap labor) in order to function efficiently, and to the benefit of the owners of the means of production.

Indeed, if we imagine someone without prospects, who upon graduating high school will be limited for the next fifty years to menial work in a big box store, with little hope of benefits or advancement, and no hope of a job with any sort of dignity or real responsibility, where they do little but assist in the sale of shoddy crap in order to continue to line the pockets of, say, the Waltons, whose net worth is that of the bottom 41% of the country, they'd be something of a fool to funnel themselves into a system that does that to them.

It's pretentious to criticize that person's decision to collect welfare, homeschool their children, learn to paint, run their own garden, work off the books for necessary extra cash, build a house off the grid that necessarily doesn't meet code, and so on. I'm reluctant to concede that person's life's economic course should be dictated by people as morally bankrupt as Scott Walker, Sam Walton, Mitt Romney, and everyone in Congress who sold their votes in favor of the latest round of 'right to work for chump change' laws.
.

Walmart was given little choice, in those cases. It's only in the US, where it's more able to buy the appropriate legislation, that it can pseudolegally circumvent unionization.

If you think money has less influence in politics in Mexico than it does in the U.S., you are mistaken.

I'm not thankful for any of you guys. Though I was for a time about a month ago.

Jack Carter, excellent posts. I'd love to get back into it today, but I'm home trying to type on a laptop so it would only lead to great frustration! No holiday for us (Canada) today, but I am thankful for BBTF (thanks Jim F. et. al.), and have expressed that on several occasions in the past.

We get lulled into thinking that most people are just like us, but that isn't true - we're the top 5-10% intellectually, and sometimes reminding ourselves of that is necessary to curb the desire to judge the lifestyle decisions of others I'm addressing myself here as much as anyone). When I was younger and more insecure I'd have traded my brains for looks/charm any day, but now that I'm more mature and have a beautiful loving wife, I realize that intelligence is something I'm very thankful for. All of you should be as well. Anyone with the free time to wile away here should certainly be thankful that they aren't at Walmart getting ready for the barbarian hordes beginning to amass outside their front doors. I'm sure some of them are legitimately afraid for their safety. To my American friends - put down your smartphones and tablets, turn off the computer, and spend some time with your friends and families. This is the only day when its socially acceptable to wear sweat pants to the dinner table, so take advantage and enjoy your day. Happy Thanksgiving.

I opined yesterday to a friend that I was thankful for jazz. I will add BBTF, for sure. Enjoy the day, everyone!

Have a great holiday everyone. Safe trip for those foolish enough to be travelling today and for those in Canada, have a nice normal day.

Indeed, if we imagine someone without prospects, who upon graduating high school will be limited for the next fifty years to menial work in a big box store, with little hope of benefits or advancement, and no hope of a job with any sort of dignity or real responsibility, where they do little but assist in the sale of shoddy crap in order to continue to line the pockets of, say, the Waltons, whose net worth is that of the bottom 41% of the country, they'd be something of a fool to funnel themselves into a system that does that to them.

This is very Gen X and before type thinking. Newer generations are starting to view work differently than Gen X'ers and before. The X generation treated work and employment like an insult. Like it was something they had to do to earn cash so they could go out and do stuff. Thus working in a coffee shop or retail store or whatever was a demeaning insult to themselves. Baby Boomers were taught the sky was the limit so go out there and take it thus if they pulled an Al Bundy it would be a sign of failure. But so far the newest generation coming on-line have a different outlook on employment. They pick jobs they like and then embrace them. They go whole hog into their field no matter how trivial or silly others might think it is and I love it. I know a 22 year old female who has decided she wants to be a butcher and so she works as a butcher in NYC. She isn't some person who simply sits in the back of Piggly-Wiggly grinding beef all day but getting out there and learning all she can on butchery and such. She is not alone in doing stuff like this. It almost seems like the entire service industry and then some is seeing a renaissance of drive, intelligence, energy, and innovation in most major cities and it is wonderful. A ton of smart energetic young people are choosing not to become lawyers or accountants or doctors and instead are becoming hairdressers, mixologists, butchers, cheesemongers, stylists, so on and so on and they do so willingly and gladly. We'll see what happens in 10 or so years when they start to have families whether or not they keep this up but right now is a great time to be a drone.

Nate rates a shout-out from the Prez at pardon ceremony

I opined yesterday to a friend that I was thankful for jazz. I will add BBTF, for sure. Enjoy the day, everyone!

I'm forever thankful for a million people and things in what's so far been a ridiculously fortunate life, but at this particular moment what I'm most thankful for is the common sense exhibited by the American people on November 6th.

I'm not sure whether it's a sign of economic vitality or economic desperation, but I want to note for the record that the Washington Post's Black Friday supplementary ad pack, delivered in a separate doorstop-sized plastic sleeve, officially weighed in at 3 pounds, about 3 times heavier than the rest of the entire newspaper.

So are there really good deals or something on "Black Friday"?

It seems like an awful lot of hassle. I'm pretty cheap, but the convenience of not trampling young children at midnight is worth a fair amount to me.

That's what internet shopping is for.

So are there really good deals or something on "Black Friday"?

It seems like an awful lot of hassle. I'm pretty cheap, but the convenience of not trampling young children at midnight is worth a fair amount to me.

Totally agree. That last post of mine was for anthropological purposes only.

It seems like an awful lot of hassle. I'm pretty cheap, but the convenience of not trampling young children at midnight is worth a fair amount to me.

Seconded. I am very cheap, don't like crowds and don't like shopping*. So I don't buy anything Black Friday generally.

* Book shopping, music shopping, and electronic shopping doesn't count.

flip