It's hard to be league MVP when one is not even the team's MVP.

FTFA:

His manager, Dusty Baker, a guy who combined power and average during an outstanding career, talks to Bruce often about just that.

"When you hit home runs you are going to get RBIs," said Baker. "I’ve talked to him many times for him not to be satisfied, which he shouldn’t be. Nobody should be satisfied until their career is over. But he is working at it.

Pure genius.

Dusty Baker, a guy who combined power and average during an outstanding career

Dusty Baker was a pretty good hitter, but I think this is the first time I've ever heard his playing career referred to as "outstanding." 116 OPS+, 1981 hits, 242 home runs. If that's outstanding, then George Hendrick was even outstanding-er, and Hendrick got exactly 0 Hall of Fame votes in his first election.

Other guys with similarly "outstanding" careers would include George Scott (1 HOF vote), Amos Otis (0 HOF votes), Toby Harrah (1 HOF vote), and Gary Matthews Sr. (0 HOF votes). Fine players, all, but that's still a rather liberal use of "outstanding."

Another rough way to put his career stats is his bWAR, and he's 362nd all time among position players. Given how many years the major leagues have been in existence, that seems like an "outstanding" career to me.

I guess it's semantics, but what else would you call it? Average? Slightly above average? If you were the scout who found those guys, or the GM whose minor league system developed them, you'd be pretty damn happy.

Other guys with similarly "outstanding" careers would include George Scott (1 HOF vote), Amos Otis (0 HOF votes), Toby Harrah (1 HOF vote), and Gary Matthews Sr. (0 HOF votes). Fine players, all, but that's still a rather liberal use of "outstanding."

Compared to Hall of Famers, no, Dusty wasn't outstanding. But if you simply look at his baseball playing career against everyone who's played major league baseball, then I think it qualifies. I suppose that's the roundabout way of saying that I think describing any of those guys (and particularly guys like Harrah and Otis) as having outstanding careers is perfectly acceptable, that the HoO does not have to be the same size as the HoF.

Edit: Coke to Puck.

as long as his Cincinnati Reds continue to shred the National League Central.

With the reds performing 5+ games over their pythag, I'd be more inclined to give the MVP to Chapman (if I had to pick a Red). And I'd love to see Luddy get at least a couple of votes. Reds fans don't deserve him, given the #### they gave him earlier this year.

Agree totally with puck and SoSH. Obviously they're nowhere near Hall of Famers, but I think of players such as George Scott, Amos Otis, and Dusty Baker as outstanding players. Baker played 19 years in the majors. What percentage of players who have played in MLB can say that?

The first two posts here are absurdly snarky, even by BTF standards. Why do people here hate Dusty Baker so much?

Don't you remember? There were a couple games when he let Mark Prior pitch the 8th when he obviously should have been pulled after the 7th, and it ruined his career.

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/one_of_the_worst_managerial_moves_i_have_seen_in_40_years_watching_baseball/

Top of the 7th, runners on second and third and no outs, score is tied, 1-1, Cliff Lee on the mound, and the pitcher for the Reds, Homer Bailey, due up.

Dusty Baker lets him hit! WTF!

First, you have a huge leverage situation in which you are severely wasting an AB. A two-year old can figure that out.

Second, you have a mediocre starter facing the lineup for the 3rd and then 4th time. Baker thinks that since he has been “pitching well” he will continue to pitch well. He is wrong. We have voluminous data on starting pitchers who have been pitching shutouts and then are allowed to face the order for the 3rd time. They do poorly.

Finally, even if Bailey was going to pitch well, how many more innings will he pitch on the average? If he allows a base runner or two, he is getting pulled, as he did. If he gets through the 7th, he will pitch the 8th maybe (and Chapman will likely pitch the 9th), although Marshall is likely going to come in to face Utley and Howard no matter what.

He is maybe going to pitch 1 more inning on the average, probably less. Even Cy Young, Pedro Martinez, and Roger Clemens on steroids for one inning or less cannot make up the difference between Bailey hitting and a pinch hitter in that high leverage situation in the top of the 7th.

In 2003 he kept Prior in in a game in which he had a nasty collision with Marcus Giles. Prior wouldn’t pitch in a game again for almost a month and Giles missed a week but hey, Prior really needed to pitch that 5th inning.

Then in the playoffs he hs Prior throw 7 innings and 116 pitches in a game in which the Cubs were up 10-0 after 5 innings. He threw only 73 pitches through 5 innings.

Then in Game 6 Baker keeps Prior in for the 8th and doesn’t have anyone warming up despite the fact that he had already thrown 95 pitches, had the top of the order up, and it would be the 4th time he faced them.

#37 Tangotiger (see all posts) 2012/08/24 (Fri) @ 09:47

I remember that 10-0 game, thinking the exact same thing while watching it.

You also forgot to mention that Prior:
- had just turned only 23
- was only his second pro season, and faced over 900 batters by that point in the season
- in his first pro season the year before, faced 700 batters (meaning a fairly big jump in 2003)

While I don’t know that it’s necessarily a problem for a pitcher to go from 700 batters in one year to 950 batters by the end of the next year, for someone who just turned 23, but it AT LEAST suggests that you should cut corners in low-leverage situations. And a 10-0 lead with 73 pitches thrown is screaming that out.

Don't Deloitte & Touche sound like a couple of feminine hygiene products?

I had the same issue with the movie K-Pax.

Another rough way to put his career stats is his bWAR, and he's 362nd all time among position players. Given how many years the major leagues have been in existence, that seems like an "outstanding" career to me.

You forgot to account for the fact that a lot of those stats were put up as a DH, rather than as a real player.

bruce is a spiffier right-handed version of tom brunasky. not very fast but good outfielder, power, walks and stays in the lineup. unlike bruno bruce looks to be inching his game up each year.

he will hit 300 odd homers in the big leagues before things go south on him

Why do people here hate Dusty Baker so much?

Because he's black, obvs.

I don't have any problem with saying Dusty had an outstanding career. If he falls short of HOVG, he's at least in the hall of good. He was an all-star, among the best players on contending teams, and got a few MVP votes in his best seasons.

Adam Dunn is totally putting up "MVP power numbers."

Also MVP walk numbers!

You forgot to account for the fact that a lot of those stats were put up as a DH, rather than as a real player.

? Dusty had a grand total of 27 games as a DH. Maybe that disqualifies him in your eyes, but if so, than almost anyone anymore with a long career will be disqualified in your eyes. Pujols has more games at DH than Baker. Should that disqualify him from the HOF?

I don't have any problem with saying Dusty had an outstanding career.

me neither. Baker's "average season" of .278/.347/.432 116 OPS+ would fit in just fine as a corner on a championship team, like Paul O'Neill, Ken Griffey, Paul Konerko. That's the kind of guy who pushed you towards a championship, and the kind of guy whose non-presence costs many a star studded team the golden ring.

Anyone who sticks around the bigs for 19 years had an outstanding career.

It's just short of the Hall of Very Good but easily within the Hall of Pretty Good.

It's just short of the Hall of Very Good but easily within the Hall of Pretty Good.

I think the next BTF project should be the "Hall of the Adequate". Guys who were good enough to deservedly hold down a job for a few years, but never really stars.

2011 cohort includes Ben Grieve, Greg Myers, James Baldwin, Brian Anderson, Junior Spivey, Jeffrey Hammonds, and Ricky Bottalico.

All worthy of consideration, and our cultural memory will be lessened if we were to forget a single one of them.

I think the next BTF project should be the "Hall of the Adequate". Guys who were good enough to deservedly hold down a job for a few years, but never really stars.

The Hall of WTF would be better. Guys who had a 10 year or longer career for reasons it's hard to fathom. I nominate Johnny LeMaster and his 12--12!!!!--year career.

shooty

rick cerone parlayed a decent season into quite the career

The Hall of WTF would be better. Guys who had a 10 year or longer career for reasons it's hard to fathom. I nominate Johnny LeMaster and his 12--12!!!!--year career.

Luis Sojo, who not only didn't have the numbers to support a 13-year career, but it wasn't like any GM, manager, player personnel guy, scout, coach, fellow ballplayer or usher ever said to himself, "Now that guy just looks like a ballplayer."

Bill Almon parlayed being a #1 pick into a 15 year career. He had a couple of non-stinkerish seasons, but for an OF/3B type he sure was around a long time for the production he offered. You know, this is a mean exercise, but kind of fun, too.

18 years for Rick Cerone!

Miguel Batista has 18 years of 100 ERA+, and he's not even left-handed.

The WTF team should just be renamed "The Bloomquists" and be done with it.

A lot of teams would kill for a 100 ERA+ pitcher.

Admittedly not so much out of the bullpen, but he has made 248 starts.

? Dusty had a grand total of 27 games as a DH.

That's the joke... I was playing off my reputation as a reflexive/reactionary hater of the DH.

Rob Picciolo and his career .246 OBA just miss out with only 9 years in the Bigs.

A lot of teams would kill for a 100 ERA+ pitcher.

Yeah, I was both surprised it was that high and that he had 18 years.

sometimes the willie's of the world turn into jim gantners so i always work to be patient before determining a guy is just all show and no 'go'

for those not aware jim gantner was a local kid (eden, wi) who attended the university of oshkosh (also in wisconsin) and led them to a division iii championship. jim was drafted by milwaukee and scrapped his way onto the roster by willing to play anywhere and having a good glove. gantner played third base in 1980 and when buck rodgers took over he thought it would be a good idea to get molitor out of harm's way at second so put gantner at second with molitor moving to center and gorman thomas to right. ganter proved to be awesome on the double play so even when thomas pouted his way back to center it was molitor who moved to third base in 1982.

gantner played 17 years in the majors on defense and guts. and no brewer fan would have had it any other way.

by the way, as a brief vision for those interested few players took on the double play like 'gumby' who rarely slid out of the way using the phantom out call as a shield or jumped to make the pivot. like maz he used the base to push off his throw and if the runner wanted to get jim's knee in his face that was fine with gantner.

many a player left the field holding their hand to their face sometimes with blood dripping from a gash and stealing a 'what the h8ll?' glance at gantner. i know jimmy moved for andre thorton but few others.

he was one rough, tough sumb8tch

Lenny Harris: 18 years in the bigs though you can justify why he kept getting jobs. He even went out as a champion pinch hitter his last year at age 40.

Jim Gantner was solid and even really good a few years. I wouldn't put him on a WTF list.

shooty

you misunderstand.

i was saying every so often a willie looking guy turns into a jim gantner

jimmy never did really hit for a sh8t in the bigs but had enough defense that it was a good tradeoff

The first two posts here are absurdly snarky, even by BTF standards. Why do people here hate Dusty Baker so much?

He chose to face Mike Lowell over Lenny Harris in extra innings of a tied playoff game.

you misunderstand.

I understood, I was just backing you up. Gantner wasn't a good hitter but he could really field and he got on base just enough not to kill what he gave you with the glove. He's kind of fascinating, actually because if you throw out 2 outliers, his OBA ranged from .300 to .336 his entire career. For a guy who skirted on the edge of being an offensive zero, he never did fall off the cliff until his 18th and final year in the league. That's very cool.

The Hall of WTF would be better. Guys who had a 10 year or longer career for reasons it's hard to fathom. I nominate Johnny LeMaster and his 12--12!!!!--year career.

Jim Wohlford. Corner outfielder, career 84 OPS+, no power, worse than breakeven base stealer, not a particularly good fielder (but not horrible) 15 years, 1220 games, 0.2 career WAR. And he wasn't even left handed.

Like Cerone, he had one decent year, but unlike Cerone, it came at the end of his career. Why this guy kept getting jobs despite OPS+ of 90, 77, 82, 65, 108, 76, 98, 30! with 0 to 2 HR per year is baffling. He seems like a classic case of of a team preferring a proven veteran over a young prospect. In KC, the Royals played him instead of a young Al Cowens. Then he was traded to Milwaukee in 1977 where he played instead of Gorman Thomas, despite being far worse than Thomas the previous 2 years. Thomas had torn up AAA in 1974 to the tune of .297/51/122, but had been unimpressive in the bigs in 1975 and 1976, but was still better than Wohlford. So they traded their hot young catcher Darrell Porter for Wohlford and sent Thomas down to AAA for the 1977 season. Thomas again tore up AAA (.322/36/114) Wohlford was predictably awful (.248/2/36).

After that he was never more than a part time player, but stayed around for 9 more years, again likely as a "safe" move, having proven his veteran presence goodness.

17 seasons for Juan Castro. Albeit that includes seasons of 4, 1, and 14 at-bats.

16 seasons for Chris Gomez.

12 seasons for Tomas Perez.

8 seasons for David Newhan is pretty impressive. 1999-2008, with 2002 having been on the major-league DL all year.

Probably backup catchers are ineligible, but the fact that Gary Bennett and Charlie O'Brien both played for eight different major-league teams (13 and 15 seasons respectively) is amazing.

This is Cody Ransom's tenth season in the majors. It's the first time he's had more than 86 plate appearances.

This is also the tenth year for Laynce Nix.

Greg Norton played 13 years.

Greg Norton played 13 years.

But he gets extra credit for his nine years with Husker Du. As well as for the moustache.

Edit: after posting the Husker Du joke, I googled Greg Norton the ballplayer and came across this in his Wikipedia entry:

He attended the University of Oklahoma. Norton's father killed his mother.

That led me to find this:

mlb.com article

It's quite the story, and makes his feat of making the majors and sticking around for 13 years all the more impressive.

the fact that Gary Bennett and Charlie O'Brien both played for eight different major-league teams (13 and 15 seasons respectively) is amazing.

Charlie O'Brien was the catcher for two consecutive Cy Young winners (Maddux and Hentgen) and had a sterling defensive reputation.

Now Kevin Cash (5 franchises, parts of 8 seasons), there's a backup catcher that lasted far too long. O'Brien's lack of offense relegated him to the bench, but his career OPS+ was 76. Cash peaked at 67 and his career line of .183/.248/.278 is good for an OPS+ of 37. That's barely above Marc Sullivan's career numbers.

I understood, I was just backing you up. Gantner wasn't a good hitter but he could really field and he got on base just enough not to kill what he gave you with the glove. He's kind of fascinating, actually because if you throw out 2 outliers, his OBA ranged from .300 to .336 his entire career. For a guy who skirted on the edge of being an offensive zero, he never did fall off the cliff until his 18th and final year in the league. That's very cool.

Darwin Barney sometimes reminds me of Jim Gantner...

On players who stuck around forever, long after you'd have thought they shouldn't -- I have a vague recollection that Jim Wohlford was (at least, late in his career) one of those highly regarded "pinch hitter extraordinaire" types.

Back before 15 man pitching staffs -- everybody used to have a spare OF who was in reality, the "pinch hitter"... Thad Bosley and Greg Gross come to mind. The immortal Lenny is, I think, the last from that breed.

bruce is a spiffier right-handed version of tom brunasky.

Tom Brunansky was a pretty decent right-handed version of Tom Brunansky:-)

Willie Harris...although he was actually not that bad with the Nationals. And plays a lot of positions.

Pat Corrales is a good one.

Rowland (Home) Office.

pretty random..sure there are better examples out there.

On topic....Jay is a good player, very streaky though. Does not seem like mvp material. 125 OPS+ . Braun is 161.

That led me to find this:

mlb.com article

It's quite the story, and makes his feat of making the majors and sticking around for 13 years all the more impressive.

Damn, that is crazy.

Back before 15 man pitching staffs -- everybody used to have a spare OF who was in reality, the "pinch hitter"... Thad Bosley and Greg Gross come to mind. The immortal Lenny is, I think, the last from that breed.

Thing is, Bosley and Gross were good hitters, and good pinch hitters. Wohlford was neither. His career PH numbers aren't much better than your average backup catcher, .202/.282/.255. OPS+ of ~ 54. I'm not saying he wasn't thought of that way, maybe he was. But he sure didn't live up to the billing.

#20 Hal Lanier is a great HOWFTer on peak. Takes a remarkable talent to keep a team with Mays, McCovey, Marichal, Perry and lots of other good players from winning a lot of pennants (and he was the primary reason). 6 years as a regular. OPS+ of 46 (and while he was regarded as a fine defensive player he was never regarded as an amazingly good one)

One of my favorite all-time WTFers is Doug Flynn. 11 years in the majors, often as a backup infielder but all too frequently as a starter (140+ games in four separate years). Career OPS+ 58 - he hit .238 for his career, and backed it up with no patience (19 walks per 500 PA), no power (20 XBH per 500), and no speed (2 SB, 2 CS per year). Can't speak to the quality of his defense, but TotalZone gives him a -20 career rating. That adds up to -8.5 career WAR.

I think Dave McCarty is the ultimate example of someone getting an infinite number of chances because of his promise as a teenager.

#3 overall pick by Twins in 1991

Hotshot rookie in 1993 - starts 90 games at LF/RF/1B - hits terribly
Two more years on Twins bench, traded to Giants mid-1995
Giants bench, then in a platoon at 1B after they trade Mark Carreon. Platooned with a guy named Desi Wilson who never got another MLB appearance after that year. Desi Wilson out-hit him.

1997: AAA all year.
1998: Mariners trade for him. Spends a month in the majors, otherwise at Tacoma.
1999: free agent. Tigers sign him. AAA all year.
2000: A's sign him. good in spring training. Royals trade for him on March 24. Hits well as pinch-hitter/occasional starter in first half of season. Hits badly second half of season as the primary 1B.
2001: Pinch-hitter, and starter at 1B when Mike Sweeney DHs, which is about 1/4 of the time. Hits badly.
2002: Age 32, hits incredibly badly, released in mid-May. Devil Rays pick him up. Hits badly in majors, hits really well in Durham.
2003: A's sign him again. Hits mediocrely in Sacramento. A's waive him in August. Pennant-contending Red sox pick him up. Hits well in incredibly limited use.
2004: Spends entire year on roster of legendary Red Sox team, as pinch-hitter. Hits badly. Not on playoff roster.
2005: On Red Sox roster again. Retires in May.

11 seasons
never one good season as a starter
1647 PA
.242/.305/.371 at the peak of sillyball mayhem, for an OPS+ of 76
pretty good fielder at 1B
bad in the outfield

He also became a two-way player with the Red Sox, though he only pitched in a handful of games.