And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

- Jesus

How much farther would Tebow have taken the Broncos if he was Muslim?

I get the feeling Allah isn't as easily satisfied with mediocrity as some gods are...

The whole Tebow mania thing is fascinating to me. I think the backlash stems largely from (a) his over-coverage. I think sports fans hate when a player gets more coverage than he warrants for his on-field accomplishments, like say Brett Favre in the twilight of his career. Tebow has massively received more coverage than he warrants for what he actually is - a mediocre QB at best who got his team into the second round of the playoffs. Its when people complain an athlete or story is "stuffed down our throats."

But (b) I think a lot of the backlash stems from his religion. And its not from atheists, but from people who begin "I'm a Christian too, but..." And I'm an atheist, so I could be totally wrong, but I think some of it stems from a discomfort by a sizeable portion of mainstream people who consider themselves Christian but not religious when religion begins to impede their regular life. Like Christianity is supposed to be this thing they think about on Sundays, or when someone dies, but they have a hard time coming to terms with the idea its supposed to transcend their entire life. The people who are full board Christians, who think God DOES interfere with our daily lives, perhaps even determining football outcomes - that makes more sense to me I guess than a God who interferes with all those events in the Bible, but then 2000 years later simply stops meddling. I don't mean to bescmirch anyone who believes that, but it just seems like a way to say "well, I believe in Christianity, but I don't REALLY believe in all of Christianity."

Okay, go to town with that!

But (b) I think a lot of the backlash stems from his religion. And its not from atheists, but from people who begin "I'm a Christian too, but..." And I'm an atheist, so I could be totally wrong, but I think some of it stems from a discomfort by a sizeable portion of mainstream people who consider themselves Christian but not religious when religion begins to impede their regular life. Like Christianity is supposed to be this thing they think about on Sundays, or when someone dies, but they have a hard time coming to terms with the idea its supposed to transcend their entire life. The people who are full board Christians, who think God DOES interfere with our daily lives, perhaps even determining football outcomes - that makes more sense to me I guess than a God who interferes with all those events in the Bible, but then 2000 years later simply stops meddling. I don't mean to bescmirch anyone who believes that, but it just seems like a way to say "well, I believe in Christianity, but I don't REALLY believe in all of Christianity."

Well, the idea that God picks winners in Football games is a little silly.

But, there is a great quote from G.K. Chesterton. It goes something like:

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried."

Lot's of people embrace the easy parts of Christianity, then ignore the hard parts.

As long as he wins 20, I don't give a #### who Wainwright obsesses over.

Tim Tebow has received so much coverage that Derek Jeter trekked to Foxboro where he was spotted in the stands holding an autographed baseball and shouting, "Look at me! Look at me!"

Tebow is an avatar for the culture wars between the red and blue states. Any success he has is a "win" for the evangelicals and the role their particular deity plays in their day-to-day lives, especially on gridirons across the country. Any failure he suffers is a "win" for those who oppose the aggressivesness of evangelicalism, be they atheist or otherwise.

Tim Tebow has willingly elected to portray himself in such a way that all that is accessible is the caricature. As such, sober discussions about his on-field abilities will be difficult, conflated as they are by everything else this willing lightning rod brings to the conversation.

As long as he wins 20, I don't give a #### who Wainwright obsesses over.

And has a 3.16 ERA to go along with it!

But, there is a great quote from G.K. Chesterton. It goes something like:

As I have long suspected snapper is actually Stephen Fry.

That guy can't go one novel, documentary, film, or comedy sketch without referencing Chesterton. Though to be fair he's got some dandies.

Tim Tebow has willingly elected to portray himself in such a way that all that is accessible is the caricature.

Or, Tim Tebow has elected to live his life independent of what most of us ######## think, caricturization be damned.

I'm a Catholic. I find Tim Tebow to be a thoroughly impressive young man. Not because he's public in his faith. But because, as far as I can tell (and if there were evidence to the contrary, I have no doubt such information would have been Deadspun to us already), his day-to-day actions are entirely consistent with what we should admire in all humans, regardless of faith (or lack thereof). He's humble. He's hard working. He seems to be respected by all who actually know him. And he gives a tremendous amount of his time and money to help those less fortunate, in a way most of us only pay lip service to.

He ain't Jesus. But unlike so many individuals with whom I share Christianity with (myself included all too often), he's actually doing his damnest to adhere to Jesus' actual teachings, rather than just the convenient (or fabricated) ones.

I'm a Catholic. I find Tim Tebow to be a thoroughly impressive young man. Not because he's public in his faith. But because, as far as I can tell (and if there were evidence to the contrary, I have no doubt such information would have been Deadspun to us already), his day-to-day actions are entirely consistent with what we should admire in all humans, regardless of faith (or lack thereof). He's humble. He's hard working. He seems to be respected by all who actually know him. And he gives a tremendous amount of his time and money to help those less fortunate, in a way most of us only pay lip service to.

I'm an emphatically former Catholic, and evangelicals generally annoy the hell out of me, but I agree with this 100%.

they have a hard time coming to terms with the idea its supposed to transcend their entire life.

Well, didn't the Nazarene say, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's". Seems to me he had in mind some kind of division. See also, Post # 1.

In any event, we now know that JC finds Brady a whole lot cooler the Tebow.

Or, Tim Tebow has elected to live his life independent of what most of us ######## think, caricturization be damned.

This seems like the exact opposite of reality to me.

If Tim Tebow didn't care what we think, he would be doing as Jesus instructed: Praying in secret. Instead, he's out there in the synagogues and the streets, loving to be seen of men.

as far as I can tell (and if there were evidence to the contrary, I have no doubt such information would have been Deadspun to us already)

Jerry Sandusky was a fine,upstanding man in the public eye for 35 years, then poof! Not saying Tebow has any skeletons, just that let's not make a 23 yo our moral icon.

When he does the Tebow after he throws an interception, then I'll have a lot more respect.

Well, the idea that God picks winners in Football games is a little silly.

I guess I don't see why. If the Broncos winning games makes Tebow a larger figure, which in turns helps spread the Word, why wouldn't God intervene? If God works in mysterious ways, how on earth are we supposed to know what he deems important and unimportant in the grand scheme of things?

FWIW, other than the fact he plays for a team I hate, I think Tebow is a breath of fresh air for the NFL. He's an upstanding citizen, he brings a different style of football to the game, and while his impact on winning is definitely overstated, there is probably a larger role in "intangibles" in the NFL than in a game like baseball.

I guess I don't see why. If the Broncos winning games makes Tebow a larger figure, which in turns helps spread the Word, why wouldn't God intervene? If God works in mysterious ways, how on earth are we supposed to know what he deems important and unimportant in the grand scheme of things?

So does that mean, that the team that Tim Tebow opposes, teams that are comprised to Christian followers, who also pray to God means that their prayers don't mean to squat?

This whole thing is so silly. He's an outspoken Christian in a highly Christian-dominated culture. Keep your persecution complex to yourself.

As a Broncos fan, I'd be more impressed if he could complete half his passes and not take half an hour to move through his reads. Or throw a spiral.

I'm a relaxed Catholic. I think Tebow is a great person, but right now he's not a good quarterback. If he gets the completion percentage up around 54 percent and can scramble for a sixty yard average, then we can talk. Denver should give him full offseason as starter, working with the offense, getting plays tailored toward his skill-set, and sign a viable backup option in case there is no improvement. Here's what bothers me about the criticism. Jokes are fine. I love a good joke. I don't like the jokes that immediately associate Catholics with people who are not socially progressive but are narrow-minded. Seeing Tebow as a symbol of sorts for that type of thinking, when in reality the kid has not made any political statements, I think that's unfair. Let's not cast athletes as societal symbols. And just because someone is down with Jesus does not make them hardcore conservative. I'm trying to be a writer and musician and Greenwhich Village is my favorite place to hang, you can see why someone like me would be offended by that.

when in reality the kid has not made any political statements

Didn't he do a Superbowl commercial for Focus on the Family?

This whole thing is so silly. He's an outspoken Christian in a highly Christian-dominated culture. Keep your persecution complex to yourself.

It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated. Absurd. Talk about a persecution complex.

Riiight. It is so difficult being a Christian in Denver! Much easier being a Muslim or (gasp) an atheist.

I don't like the jokes that immediately associate Catholics with people who are not socially progressive but are narrow-minded.

Tebow isn't Catholic though, is he? Thought he was Baptist or something more evangelical.

Is Tebow really associated with Catholics, specifically? He's really more a symbol of Evangelicals for those who are vehemently against him, right?

EDIT: Coke to Benji Gil Gamesh.

It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated. Absurd. Talk about a persecution complex.

Other than, you know, "In God We Trust", and Christmas being a federal holiday, and so forth.

I don't oppose these things. I am a Catholic, and feel lucky that I have nothing holding me back in this country when it comes to my faith and background. And part of that is because we are a Christian-dominated society.

It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated.

Nearly eighty percent of Americans are Christian. No other religion makes it as high as two percent.

link

What people do not understand is that due to the way he was brought up, his outspoken and openness in expressing his religion is part of who he is and how he approaches life - including football. Other players use mental techniques to prepare - religion serves this purpose for Tebow.

If you took his religion away from his upbringing, I highly doubt he would be able to prepare for games in a focused and successful manner. It helps him be calm, be ready for what is thrown at him on the field and deal with success and faliure. Without this means of generating confidence, he would need to develop another coping skill set.

In my opinion, he's no Sid Luckman!

And the fact that a presidential candidate's better off saying that he supplied children to Jerry Sandusky than he is coming out as anything other than a strong Christian.

It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated.

Wrong, Gaelan. Ridiculously so.

Also, I like Tim Tebow solely because the football experts hated him all the way from his first game through losing his second playoff game ever.

Jerry Sandusky was a fine,upstanding man in the public eye for 35 years, then poof! Not saying Tebow has any skeletons, just that let's not make a 23 yo our moral icon.

I didn't do anything of the sort. From what I've seen of the young man, I've been very impressed. He's not perfect, of course, but simply because Kirby Puckett turned out to have some some serious character issues* does not mean that folks who use their sports earnings to fund construction of children's hospitals are just as likely to be POS human beings as the guy who spends his off-field time populating maternity wards.

* I didn't use Sandusky because, let's face it, the vast majority of Americans had never heard of the ###### until we found out he was a pedophile. The spotlight wasn't exactly white hot.

Tebow isn't Catholic though, is he? Thought he was Baptist or something more evangelical.

Yes, he's an Evangelical Protestant. I'm not sure Matt was claiming he was Catholic or simply relating his experience as a Catholic and how it compares.

Tim Tebow has willingly elected to portray himself in such a way that all that is accessible is the caricature. As such, sober discussions about his on-field abilities will be difficult, conflated as they are by everything else this willing lightning rod brings to the conversation.

This is what I think as well, though the only evidence I see is that he hasn't elected to criticize his portrayal. Also, #### the evangelicals.

It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated.

Utterly disagreed.

Didn't he do a Superbowl commercial for Focus on the Family?

Yep.

Focus on the Hypocrisy.

It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated. Absurd. Talk about a persecution complex.

Gaelan is right on this one.

Our current culture emphasizes materialism, consumerism, and sex, anytime anyway you want it. These are about as far from Christian ideas as you can get.

The vast majority of Americans are privately Christian, but the prevailing media and cultural climate is anything but Christian.

the prevailing media and cultural climate is anything but Christian

is a long way from

It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated.

Our current culture emphasizes materialism, consumerism, and sex, anytime anyway you want it. These are about as far from Christian ideas as you can get.

The vast majority of Americans are privately Christian, but the prevailing media and cultural climate is anything but Christian.

snapper, your argument is more that modern culture is far from being religion-dominated. And you're absolutely right. But framing it as "not Christian-dominated" is a bit misleading. If you were to look at the subset of American culture that includes only the religious parts, it is decidedly Christian-dominated.

And that's fine. Like people congregate into communities, states, nations, etc. So really, any country is likely to have its religious culture dominated by one religion.

when in reality the kid has not made any political statements

Didn't he do a Superbowl commercial for Focus on the Family?

Oh, the humanity!

Drew hits it, snapper. You're not agreeing with what was said, just something else.

Putting his Southeastern Conference allegiance aside, Adam Wainwright spent several minutes expressing his admiration for Tebow, particularly for the fearless the University of Florida product shows in expressing his religious faith in a public forum.

“I am obsessed with Tim Tebow,” Wainwright said. “I’m not afraid to say it. It’s almost embarrassing to us athletes that this much emphasis is put on Tim Tebow because that means we aren’t living our lives as we should. If we did that more often, the way he is living wouldn’t be as big a story. I’m so proud of him for living out his faith.”

Oh, #### this bullsh!t. Just once I want to see one of these self-absorbed, bloviating ######## give up something that hurts, just a little bit. I want to see ONE of them write the annual check for half the salary that makes him one of the richest men in the world to Child Fund, the Red Cross, or his own ####### charity. Hell, make it half his salary AFTER taxes.

Jesus wants you to keep children from starving to death, you self-important, kneeling, crossing, sky-kissing m@therf@cker.

Drew hits it, snapper. You're not agreeing with what was said, just something else.


I don't think so.

Let's look at some "classic" Christian ideas. Things that were agreed upon, w/o dispute, by every denomination (Catholic or Protestant) 100 years ago.

1) Sex outside of marriage is immoral

Today, the idea of an adult virgin is a punchline in the culture.

2) Contraception is immoral

This is considered a fringe, almost illogical belief.

3) Homosexual sex is immoral

Viewed as tantamount to bigotry and racism in the popular culture

4) Marriage is meant to be forever

Divorce has moved from being a source of scandal, to an absolute norm

The only traditional view that's clinging to life is opposition to abortion. And that's barely half the allegedly overwhelmingly Christian population that holds to a view that was undisputed for 1950 years of Christianity.

The vast majority of Americans are privately Christian, but the prevailing media and cultural climate is anything but Christian.

Which explains why Andy Dalton is the focus of weekly ESPN stories and numerous threads on a baseball website.

Oh, #### this bullsh!t. Just once I want to see one of these self-absorbed, bloviating ######## give up something that hurts, just a little bit. I want to see ONE of them write the annual check for half the salary that makes him one of the richest men in the world to Child Fund, the Red Cross, or his own ####### charity. Hell, make it half his salary AFTER taxes.

Jesus wants you to keep children from starving to death, you self-important, kneeling, crossing, sky-kissing m@therf@cker.

Because if someone doesn't rise to the full call of Christ they're equivalent to the worst lying, cheating, stealing, womanizing, low-life out there.

Oh, the humanity!

I guess this is supposed to be some sort of sarcastically dismissive rebuttal, so:

Focus on the Family is a de facto right wing extremist political organization with a veneer of religion. Some of their focuses are abolishing the right to choose, denying equal rights to gays, outlawing pornography, spending American taxpayer money to prop up the government of Israel, promoting the teaching of creationism in schools, denying global warming, school prayer, and so forth.

Wikipedia says that their founder claimed that Obama's presidency would lead to: "mandated homosexual teachings across all schools; the banning of firearms in entire states; the end of the Boy Scouts, home schooling, Christian school groups, Christian adoption agencies, and talk radio; pornography on prime-time and daytime television; mandatory bonuses for gay soldiers; terrorist attacks across America; the nuclear bombing of Tel Aviv; the conquering of most of Eastern Europe by Russia; the end of health care for Americans over 80; out-of-control gasoline prices; and complete economic disaster in the United States, among other catastrophes."

These are the people who criticize Sponge Bob Square Pants as promoting "the homosexual agenda".

As for the idea that there's a "Christianity" who has had monolithic ideas for 1950 years and only recently deviated from it, Christ <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16:17-18&versi>said</a> that the way people would know that Tim Tebow is a Christian is when he drinks a deadly poison without being hurt. Other than that, Christianity has had a vast range of ideas on virtually everything, including the social crap that is somehow being foisted as the heart of Christianity. As if Jesus said "don't take the pill, slut".

snapper, your four points are descriptive of most religions, are they not? An equally-true statement is that American culture is not Islam-dominated.

As for the idea that there's a "Christianity" who has had monolithic ideas for 1950 years and only recently deviated from it, Christ said that the way people would know that Tim Tebow is a Christian is when he drinks a deadly poison without being hurt. Other than that, Christianity has had a vast range of ideas on virtually everything, including the social crap that is somehow being foisted as the heart of Christianity. As if Jesus said "don't take the pill, slut".

Nice rhetorical flourish. Much easier for you than actually finding a major Christian Church that actually disagreed on any of these ideas before the 20th century.

snapper, your four points are descriptive of most religions, are they not? An equally-true statement is that American culture is not Islam-dominated.

Most orthodox religions, yes.

But, of course, you wouldn't expect a country in which 80% of the population self-identify as Christians to be Islam dominated? Would you?

The reality is that the modern cultural imperative is radical individual autonomy. The "god" of modern man is his own desires.

And? So what? Christ had nothing to say about birth control or homosexuality or abortion or whatever. These simply are not fundamental parts of his teachings.

Of course not, snapper. But American culture (and policy) is not, and was never intended to be, dominated by any religion.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7455943/believing-tim-tebow

This from Rick Reilly, who hates everyone.

So does that mean, that the team that Tim Tebow opposes, teams that are comprised to Christian followers, who also pray to God means that their prayers don't mean to squat?

Of course. There's nothing in Christianity that teaches "all your prayers will be answered." People still die, despite the prayers of their loved ones.

I'm not saying God is intervening in Broncos games because Tebow prays harder/better than everyone else, but if you believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent being (which I don't) who makes shrubbery talk, makes it rain frogs, and splits bodies of water, I don't see why its so difficult to believe it can intervene in a football game with some sort of master plan in mind.

But I think mainstream Christians are uncomfortable with that thought (and also because the spokespeople for that kind of talk is the likes of Pat Robertson) and instead like to think of God as a distant being who did things 2000 years ago or maybe when people die, but is gone fishin' the rest of the time.