I'm pretty sure the Rays pulled it off successfully once in the past few years. Since getting back into baseball in 2003 I've seen a lot of Rays or opponents pitchers try it as well as pitchers in random/playoff games and I think it has only worked the one time. I know the idea is probably more about forcing the runner on first to stay close than actually picking him off but is that really effective at all? Who the hell ever throws to third base anyway so why should a runner ever assume that the pitcher is doing anything other than bluffing? I'd be happy to see the move gone just because it's dumb and a waste of time.

Harry Caray used to get on Rick Sutcliffe's case about it (since Sutcliffe was invariably compulsive about trying it in any 1-and-3 situation), but once he did manage to pull it off. Caray about had a #### fit.

I'll bet the success rate for the fake to third, throw to first move is better than the standard pickoff move to first.

Who the hell ever throws to third base anyway so why should a runner ever assume that the pitcher is doing anything other than bluffing?

That's not why the runner would go -- he's keying on the lifting of the front foot and assuming the pitcher is going to the plate.

Why would the players' union care? Do they not have a rep on the Playing Rules Committee that would have given them advance notice to check with their constituency?

On the other hand, it has a (small) place in letting the defense see if a play is on without wasting a pitch. It's not significantly worse than a fake throw to 3b or 2b so what's the harm in leaving it alone? It seems like change for change sake, which is usually not smart. I say leave it alone.

The Angels caught Curtis Granderson with the move last year for the final out of the game. (Mentioned in TFA, actually).

Speaking of balk moves, I was watching Chris Perez of Cleveland on TV last weekend. He has a moment in his motion where he pulls the ball out of his glove, then sort of half- puts it back in, and then goes into his delivery. Looking at it from the CF camera is very disconcerting. Other-angle video I've looked at suggests that it's not really visible from home plate: his glove shields that part of the motion from the batter, so it's not part of deceiving the hitter. A runner on second is a different story. I guess because he doesn't interrupt the rest of his motion, it's a legal move, but it looks very strange to me. Perhaps I don't understand the balk rule, which would be unsurprising because few umpires ever seem to have understood it the same way ...

Maybe it's a 3B positioning thing, but I would like to see a pitcher actually throw to third once in a while.

Manny Alexander was picked off by this move twice in one season.

Who the hell ever throws to third base anyway so why should a runner ever assume that the pitcher is doing anything other than bluffing?

I think the theory is that you catch guys who were planning to run on the first move to the plate. Since faking a move to the plate or first is a balk but faking a move to third is not, this is one way to fool clueless, unwary, downright stupid baserunners. Like Manny Alexander.

Edit: #### me, Greg Maddux is a faster poster.

Who the hell ever throws to third base anyway so why should a runner ever assume that the pitcher is doing anything other than bluffing? I'd be happy to see the move gone just because it's dumb and a waste of time.

James Shields tries to pick runners off third fairly frequently. Pretty sure the Rays lost 1-0 last year in a game in NYS when Shields threw wildly to third trying to pick off Cano, scoring the only run of the game.

Has any righty tried the Pettitte-esque pickoff move to third?

Is there a way on Play Index to see how many baserunners are picked off first by the pitcher in a season?

#### me, Greg Maddux is a faster poster.

Nice potential handle for somebody there.

As for the rule change itself: anything that results in the pitcher delivering the ball to home plate sooner is OK with me.

I saw Doug Jones pick off Barry Bonds with this move during an A's/Giants interleague game at the Oakland Coliseum.

I have a soft spot for the fake-to-third, throw-to-first move because Bob Walk used it obsessively, which made Skip Carey very grumpy and a grumpy Skip Carey was extremely entertaining.

On the other hand, it has a (small) place in letting the defense see if a play is on without wasting a pitch. It's not significantly worse than a fake throw to 3b or 2b so what's the harm in leaving it alone? It seems like change for change sake, which is usually not smart. I say leave it alone.

Same here.

As for the rule change itself: anything that results in the pitcher delivering the ball to home plate sooner is OK with me.

I'd rather MLB take serious looks at the things that are genuinely slowing down the game (stepping out, fiddling on the mound between pitches). Elmininating something that costs almost no time while occasionally resulting in a play on the bases does not seem like a good start.

Why would the players' union care? Do they not have a rep on the Playing Rules Committee that would have given them advance notice to check with their constituency?

According to the CBA, all on-field rule changes need the players approval. I think they would care because they're the ones who actually play the games and are best suited to judge how rule changes may alter the games.

I saw Paul Molitor, of all people, get picked off this way.

I thought I remembered Turk Wendell successfully pulling it off twice within a few weeks' time, and Googling it I see somebody claiming it was twice in one game.

Seems to be May 16, 2000.

I'm sure it works a couple times a season, I think it did once this year already.

But, I can't remember specifically at the moment.

Is there a way on Play Index to see how many baserunners are picked off first by the pitcher in a season?

I don't know about Play Index, but that season's pickoff totals by pitcher are on the team's page under Pitching+ - team baserunning & misc. Catcher's pickoffs are in the catcher section of advanced fielding.

The league totals by team can be found the same way on the league page.

All I know is that it never worked when Jeff Nelson did it (which, as with Sutcliffe, was pretty much every single time there were runners on both bases).

And it still doesn't when he continues to do so in my nightmares.

It worked once against the Braves better than anyone could have imagined. The pitcher (Doug Davis? I think it was against Arizona) picked the runner off first for one out, and the runner on third was thrown out trying to take home.

Okay, here it is: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ATL/ATL200905160.shtml.

Not gonna lie---It always felt a little sneaky to do the third to first thingy.
I asked myself and would ask others "How can this be legal?"

However, since it IS legal, why not work at it?
Worked for me a couple of times actually.

My favorite one was in 2003 in Allentown.
I come into the game and I think it was 9-6, bases loaded and 1 out, top of the 9th. I get a force out 4-6 GB (I think) and now it's 9-7, 1st and third and 2 out.

Pretty sure that the runner was Kevin Grijak at first. I was SLOW to the plate which made stealing on me rather easy, and the other team knew this (NJ Jackals). In my previous outing against them, I'd gone 3 innings (or 2 2/3) and I think they stole 4 or 5 bases on me. Now Grijak wasn't a fast guy, but he was a wily vet and could get around the bases OK and I think he actually stole off of me the time before too.

BTW, the stats on b-ref are wrong. I gave UP way many more stolen bases that year.

Anyway, I think the count was 0-1 on the next guy. I think it was Chris Rowan up.
I give the "bad" 53 move first to set it up, cuz I KNOW they're running
Followed it up with the "good" 53 move, runner took off, flipped it to the 2B who tagged him to end the game.
Wish I had the boxscore, but yes it does work....
....but it always felt illegal to me

And yeah, I did it TWICE IN A ROW. I had no shame and I think Harry might've disapproved.

Balking Bob Davidson laughs maniacally.

100% in favor of this. And normally I am skeptical about any changes to the existing rules of the game, but hasn't everyone seen enough of this idiot ballet.

The Orioles just picked off Alex Rios with this a few weeks ago. But it doesn't really add anything to the game so I have no problem with getting rid of it, as long as it doesn't have any unexpected consequences.

Will we see more steals of home as a result?

Will we see more steals of home as a result?

I don't see why we would. Steals of home are generally done against lefties, or guys throwing from the windup. This is only allowed by righthanders throwing from the stretch (and has been said, is done more to hold the guy at first, rather than the man at home).

So will this change only be applicable to third? Will pitchers no longer be able to pivot and not throw to second base, or will that now be a balk as well?

I just don't get the reason why this is being done. It doesn't take a tremendous amount of time. It's commonplace enough that no baserunner should ever be fooled by it, but, as this thread shows, baserunners do get fooled by it enough to make it not a completely pointless exercise (and when they do, it can lead to rundowns and/or plays at the plate, both of which are worth the investment). I just don't get what is gained by prohibiting this play.

I thought I remembered Turk Wendell successfully pulling it off twice within a few weeks' time, and Googling it I see somebody claiming it was twice in one game.

Seems to be May 16, 2000.

I'm so glad you found this, because I was convinced it had happened but I never found the box. I remembered it being twice in one inning; and it looks like it was. So crazy.

This is too bad. I remember Jack McDowell using the move successfully several times. I think he did in an All-Star game once.

A silent tear is rolling down Jack McDowell's face right now.

Get rid of it. The rules would be less arbitrary if it was a balk for a pitcher to fake a throw to any base (from the rubber).

The fact that it very occasionally works is no reason to keep it.

I'd rather MLB take serious looks at the things that are genuinely slowing down the game (stepping out, fiddling on the mound between pitches). Elmininating something that costs almost no time while occasionally resulting in a play on the bases does not seem like a good start.

This, a thousand times this.

The fake to third is a far cry from the torture of watching Nomar Garciaparra, Skip Schumaker, and Chris Truby step out to adjust their batting gloves after every pitch or enduring the pain that Betancourt inflicts.

I just don't get why so many fans, including a few of the altecockers, scream "Balk!" whenever the pitcher attempts the move.

I just don't get why so many fans, including a few of the altecockers, scream "Balk!" whenever the pitcher attempts the move.

I remember when my son first saw this move live. Everyone, naturally, yelled balk knowing that it wasn't a balk. It's not a balk?, he asked. No. Why is everyone yelling balk? It's just something you do. Why? Dunno, it's always been that way.

Are we trying to be ironic? Are we trying to rattle the pitcher? Are we mocking fans who don't know the rule and believe the move to be a balk?

Very strange tradition indeed. I wonder if there is an analogy in any other sport, where fans knowingly pretend to be ignorant of a rule.

I vaguely recall Mitch Williams (as a Cub?) doing this successfully to the Expos late in the year, ending a desperate, late season Montreal playoff push. Late 80s maybe?

Tim Wakefield executed it successfully a couple of times in recent years.

Of course Tuesday night Daniel Bard actually DID balk making the move. It was arguably a bad call but if you're repeatedly making the move to pick off Mike Moustakas you deserve what you get.

Very strange tradition indeed. I wonder if there is an analogy in any other sport, where fans knowingly pretend to be ignorant of a rule.

When one of their own players performs a ballet move on the way down to the ice, the home team fans will often scream bloody murder for the other guy to get a penalty, instead of the "diving" call their player should get.

It's commonplace enough that no baserunner should ever be fooled by it, but, as this thread shows, baserunners do get fooled by it enough to make it not a completely pointless exercise

This is why they should keep it -- whenever any base runner gets fooled by this bozo move, the amusement factor is through the roof, even when it happens to your guy.

The people who want to get rid of it really don't seem to enjoy baseball. They enjoy some fictional game in their head and they are always trying to change things so that it meets their personal expectations.

Football and Basketball seem to be tweaking and twisting their rules every damn year. Baseball used to have the common sense to leave well enough alone. Now there may be some changes that would help the game, by speeding it up a bit, but most of that could be accomplished by enforcing the rules already on the books, not changing them.

Baseball is a wonderfully quirky game. They should keep it out of reach of the tinkerers.

I vaguely recall Mitch Williams (as a Cub?) doing this successfully to the Expos late in the year, ending a desperate, late season Montreal playoff push. Late 80s maybe?

As a lefthander, Mitch Williams could not have done this specific move.

Two things:

(1) On its face, this rule change doesn't seem like it would speed the game up. Quite the contrary. Seems to me the most likely alternative to this play is a fake to third, reset, fake to first, etc. Potentially twice the time wasted. (Take that, rules committee!)

(2) This is what MLB is concerned about? I like the game the way it is, but if you're one of those tinkering types, it seems like there are plenty of other rules-related issues you could split hairs over before this one.

I agree with CBW, it is clearly against the spirit of the rules. However, I had a Legion teammate get picked off twice in the same game on this play. It comes up anytime any of his former teammates and he get together. usually first thing. 25 years of humor is hard to let go of.

I think I support this rule change. Seems like there will be more steal attempts in this situation. Generally, that should mean more exciting baseball because there will be the added risk of double steals home, errant throws to the outfield, and whatnot.

Do have a couple of things to add....

It "doesn't work" as well as it should because frankly, most RHP don't work at making it look like a decent move---therefore many runners sniff it out early. It SHOULD work more, if you really think about it.

I worked at it some and probably not enough, but think about it....If a RHP had a killer Andy Pettite move, why wouldn't it work? It's almost unfair, hence why it's sort of a sneaky way to get it done.

Looking back on it, had I had less shame when I was younger, I would've perfected and made a living out it. It's just SUCH an easy way to keep a runner at 1B at bay without any real risks (I mean, you don't have to even throw the ball, ya know?)

Agreed on #43, btw

Thanks for the insight, CBW. Really cool.

I'm in the camp that is on the fence on this particular rule. It happens frequently enough(we seem to have this discussion every couple of months) that it's not a non-factor. And I'm a big believer in preserving the intent of a rule over the letter, and as CBW relates, this appears to be a within legal acceptance, while outside of the intent.

But as also pointed out, if they were serious about changing the pace of the game, this is a silly thing to go after. Follow the batter in batter box rules, follow the pitch time limit rules more. Etc. Go after stuff that is truly taking away from the experience of the game, at least with the fake throw move, you get the fans riled up if you are the visiting pitcher.

(1) On its face, this rule change doesn't seem like it would speed the game up. Quite the contrary. Seems to me the most likely alternative to this play is a fake to third, reset, fake to first, etc. Potentially twice the time wasted. (Take that, rules committee!)

Faking to first is already a balk.

Mike Fetters owned this move.

I seem to remember Dennis Martinez during his Expo days pulling off a version of this move. He stepped back off the rubber, faked a throw to first, and then fired to third to pick off the runner. It wasn't called a balk because he stepped off the rubber first. Anybody else seen something like this?