Regardless of whether or not one thinks this would be a good use of $30 for Pittsburgh, you have to feel bad for Pirates' fans. It sounds like the Pirates were willing to spend some money, but I don't think Pittsburgh is going to win very many tiebreakers for players deciding between similar contracts...

It sounds like the Pirates were willing to spend some money, but I don't think Pittsburgh is going to win very many tiebreakers for players deciding between similar contracts...

No quality free agent will ever sign with the Pirates if he has another option. Even if that other option involves less money, or fewer years, or a less-prominent role.

If the Pirates want those kinds of players, they need to develop them themselves.

I'm just tickled pink that only a short year after the Nats felt the need to overpay to bring in future Hall of Famer Jayson Werth!!!11!, now player(s) are choosing the Nats over other laughingstock teams. Could it be???

I think it's a lot more statement than Jackson wanted a one-year make good contract than that he preferred the Nats to the Pirates. He's looking to cash in next offseason at a much better rate than 2/19

I think it's a lot more statement than Jackson wanted a one-year make good contract than that he preferred the Nats to the Pirates. He's looking to cash in next offseason at a much better rate than 2/19

Nah - he wants to make it through all 30 teams... Three year deals aren't conducive to that.

Hopefully, the Nats fall out of the race early and he can turn this into another multi-team deal. He knows he needs to pick up the pace a bit. What he really needs is one of those delayed Piazza-to-the-Marlins 3 team deals.

No quality free agent will ever sign with the Pirates if he has another option.

Ever? No. If the Pirates start developing those players themselves and contending for division titles, then Pittsburgh will be able to land FAs.

One thing that bothers me about the Huntington/Coonelly regime is that they don't seem to have developed much of a buzz within baseball that Pittsburgh is a better place to play.

Ever? No. If the Pirates start developing those players themselves and contending for division titles, then Pittsburgh will be able to land FAs.

Maybe if we just give them some more time and more free money.

Maybe if we just give them some more time and more free money.

Good point. I appreciate your fresh take on the subject.

No, no, I think they're almost over the hump. Removing the need to be responsible for profitability from the equation allows teams like the Pirates to focus solely on putting the best team on the field and present their fans with the most entertaining product possible.

I think it's a lot more statement than Jackson wanted a one-year make good contract than that he preferred the Nats to the Pirates. He's looking to cash in next offseason at a much better rate than 2/19

Then he could have signed the one-year contract with the Pirates.

If the Pirates start developing those players themselves and contending for division titles, then Pittsburgh will be able to land FAs.

Of course. But until they do, free agents like Jackson are going to be nothing but a pipe dream.

No, no, I think they're almost over the hump. Removing the need to be responsible for profitability from the equation allows teams like the Pirates to focus solely on putting the best team on the field and present their fans with the most entertaining product possible.

Eat #### and die in a fire.

Of course. But until they do, free agents like Jackson are going to be nothing but a pipe dream.

In general, and without seriously overpaying, that's true.

If the Pirates want to sign free agents they need to go nuclear the way Detroit did but it would require a deep-pocketed and possibly insane owner to do it.

Then he could have signed the one-year contract with the Pirates.

Did they offer him a one year contract?

One thing that bothers me about the Huntington/Coonelly regime is that they don't seem to have developed much of a buzz within baseball that Pittsburgh is a better place to play.

At least they didn't give Derek Bell a job in the PR department.

Then he could have signed the one-year contract with the Pirates.

Because, obviously, they offered one.

With some posters people on "ignore", it's often because it's random insanity they spew.
There is no need to put Yankee Redneck on "ignore", simply because you know it's the same content, over and over again. That axe head must be almost gone, it's been ground so often...

Then he could have signed the one-year contract with the Pirates.

How much would it have taken? It sounds like it needed to be considerably more than $11M for him to sign with the Pirates.

If you were the Pirates, would you offer a one year contract? I sure as heck wouldn't, they are approaching the point where they think they can be a .500 team next year, and better than that in years to come, a one year deal doesn't really help them out.

You could make the argument that the Nats are closer to contention than the Pirates are, and being on the east coast, he'd have more exposure to teams such as the Red Sox or Yankees if he is indeed traded.

You could make the argument that the Nats are closer to contention than the Pirates are

If the Pirates' 2012 is comparable to the Nats' 2011, they should be viewed as a better free agent destination next winter.

he'd have more exposure to teams such as the Red Sox or Yankees if he is indeed traded.

Is it 1912 or 2012?

Amazingly, teams such as the Red Sox or Yankess have cable TV. Probably even the extra innings package.

If you were the Pirates, would you offer a one year contract?

Of course I would. Look at the team's rotation. Bedard's good for about 70 innings a year before his arm blows up, Kevin Correia's been right at replacement level for the last two seasons, and Charlie Morton might not be ready for the start of spring training. I like Shairon Martis as a potential fill-in, but even so, it's all shaky as hell.

But you're going to miss the human element of watching Edwin Jackson give up 5 runs in 8 innings in the great city-state of D.C. instead of the moderately good but not quite recognized Pittsburgh.

Amazingly, teams such as the Red Sox or Yankess have cable TV. Probably even the extra innings package.

And scouts, too!

Ever? No. If the Pirates start developing those players themselves and contending for division titles, then Pittsburgh will be able to land FAs.

Did they land FAs in the late 80s/early 90s when they were winning division titles? I honestly don't recall.

Did they land FAs in the late 80s/early 90s when they were winning division titles? I honestly don't recall.

No, they lost them. But it wasn't because players couldn't be enticed to playing in Pittsburgh, but management wasn't footing the bill when they got expensive.

Twenty years of shitty play has made Pittsburgh, justifiably so, pretty low on most FA's wish list, even if Pittsburgh's offer is slightly better than some other team's. If the Pirates show signs of being competitive, there's no reason to think Pittsburgh's money won't be just as good as any other team's.

Did they land FAs in the late 80s/early 90s when they were winning division titles?

No. The big-ticket FAs they added around that time were washed-up 35-year-old Kirk Gibson in 1991-1992, Alejandro Pena in 1992-1993 and Walt Terrell in 1989-1990. None of them were exactly prime cuts, y'know?

They did have a certain amount of success in retaining second-tier internal FAs: Zane Smith, Mike LaValliere, Bob Walk, Steve Buechele, Gary Redus, etc.

Eat #### and die in a fire.

Touchy touchy. I bet you'd get really angry if I disparaged a team that had only been awful for 10 years.

I guess if the Pirates showed a commitment to spending money and were winning, I can see FA wanting to play there. FA have signed in similar small Midwestern cities like Cincy and Milwaukee recently. I even recall KC landing premiere FA back when they were profligate spenders in the early 90s.

The fans that should worry would be the Blue Jays. Seems like a few free agents have spurned them despite high offers and the fact the team isn't that bad and has shown they will spend money at times. Is it just the Canada thing?

But it wasn't because players couldn't be enticed to playing in Pittsburgh, but management wasn't footing the bill when they got expensive.

ISTR the Pirates had the choice of offering a long-term high-dollar contract to either Andy Van Slyke after the 1991 season or Barry Bonds after the 1992 season.

They chose Van Slyke.

Neal Huntington & Frank Coonelly taking a page out of Mark Shapiro & Larry Dolan's PR playbook:

"Won't somebody please take our money?!"

$30M/3 seems legitimate enough, but there's definitely a PR game that gets played where teams know how much it will take to sign a player, leak something not quite good enough to get it done, and then get to say that they tried, but that the player didn't want to play in that city or that the player was overpaid.

As an outsider it's hard to say when that's the case, but I'm not interested in gauging willingness to spend based on leaked offers. Get it done or I don't want to hear about how hard you tried.

You could make the argument that the Nats are closer to contention than the Pirates are, and being on the east coast, he'd have more exposure to teams such as the Red Sox or Yankees if he is indeed traded.

The latest(still too early) CAIRO projections have the Nats at 86 wins and second in the East with the Pirates at 68 wins and fifth place in the Central. So yes, I think you could definitely argue that the Nats are closer to contention than the Pirates.

The latest(still too early) CAIRO projections have the Nats at 86 wins and second in the East with the Pirates at 68 wins and fifth place in the Central. So yes, I think you could definitely argue that the Nats are closer to contention than the Pirates.

Sure, but that's post-Edwin Jackson signing. I'm sure before that the teams were neck-and-neck.

ISTR the Pirates had the choice of offering a long-term high-dollar contract to either Andy Van Slyke after the 1991 season or Barry Bonds after the 1992 season.

They chose Van Slyke.

In fairness to the Pirates, Van Slyke's skin color is much lighter.

In fairness to the Pirates, Van Slyke's skin color is much lighter.

In fairness to Mr. Van Slyke, he'll sign an autograph for kids of any color.

Touchy touchy. I bet you'd get really angry if I disparaged a team that had only been awful for 10 years.

Eat #### and die in a fire. The system's already massively stacked in your favor, and still you're a broken record about the state of poor Mr. Steinbrenner's wallet. Not to mention that we get maybe one Pirates thread a week here, and you have to come in and #### on the floor and hijack the discussion.

In fairness to Mr. Van Slyke, he'll sign an autograph for kids of any color.

Funny to hear you say that. Bonds signed for me with no problem the time I met him, but when I went to get Van Slyke's at an event at a sporting goods store, he cut off signing a half-hour before the scheduled end, then flipped off the kids who tried to come up and get one while he was leaving.

Eat #### and die in a fire.

And people accuse me of lacking material?

The system's already massively stacked in your favor

How so? Free wins for New York teams? Extra roster spots? Yankee officials allowed to investigate other teams for PED use?

and still you're a broken record about the state of poor Mr. Steinbrenner's wallet.

You know whose wallet should be in pretty good shape? Bob Nutting's.

Not to mention that we get maybe one Pirates thread a week here

And in the interest of fairness we should demand the same number of threads for all teams.

and you have to come in and #### on the floor and hijack the discussion.

You're hijacking it as much as I am. If you were honest with yourself you'd read my comment, grumble to yourself while acknowledging that the Pirates have been awful for years and years while pocketing money supposedly earmarked for improving the team, and realize poor ol' YR is just the messenger.

Funny to hear you say that. Bonds signed for me with no problem the time I met him, but when I went to get Van Slyke's at an event at a sporting goods store, he cut off signing a half-hour before the scheduled end, then flipped off the kids who tried to come up and get one while he was leaving.

Well there you go. Andy Van Slyke is the real racist.

And people accuse me of lacking material?

Eat #### and die in a fire.

How so? Free wins for New York teams? Extra roster spots? Yankee officials allowed to investigate other teams for PED use?

A huge financial edge resulting from exclusive media rights in the largest market in the country.

You know whose wallet should be in pretty good shape? Bob Nutting's.

There are two possibilities here: Either you're too ignorant to understand what a terrible take on the Pirates' finances that article is, or you realize that it's terrible but you're dishonestly presenting it as reasonable anyway because it supports a point you want to make.

Either way, eat #### and then die in a fire.

Eat #### and die in a fire.

I'm rubber and you're glue. So, you know, checkmate.

A huge financial edge resulting from exclusive media rights in the largest market in the country.

So huge they've been forced to send free money to self-enriching ownerships, several of whom simply pocket the unearned cash and let their hapless clubs founder without a second thought. It ain't the Yankees' fault that the Pirates have nearly 20 years of hapless bumbling in their rear-view mirrors.

There are two possibilities here: Either you're too ignorant to understand what a terrible take on the Pirates' finances that article is

Yeah yeah yeah everyone is picking on the poor Pirates. Look, you can either write off two decades in the cellar as a bad break or you can make some small effort to point out the failures of ownership who cry poor and shed every marginally established player while generating fabulous profits. The Yankees haven't consigned this moribund team to the second-division, they're only helping to fund the effort.

Did they offer him a one year contract?

They offered him a three year contract. The extra years are all in the player's interest. If you turn down my offer of three cakes in favor of one pie, it's not reasonable to conclude that the problem is that I offered too much cake. You probably just prefer pie.

How much would it have taken? It sounds like it needed to be considerably more than $11M for him to sign with the Pirates.

Yes, that was my point. Jackson didn't turn down the Pirate's offer because they offered him two extra years, but because they didn't offer enough money.

I'm rubber and you're glue. So, you know, checkmate.

Eat #### and die in a fire.

So huge they've been forced to send free money to self-enriching ownerships, several of whom simply pocket the unearned cash and let their hapless clubs founder without a second thought.

So go complain to those teams' fans, and stop ######## about the Pirates, who don't do that.

Incidentally, I'm sure small-market clubs would be glad to end revenue sharing, if it meant an equal division of all clubs' local revenue sources.

Look, you can either write off two decades in the cellar as a bad break or you can make some small effort to point out the failures of ownership who cry poor and shed every marginally established player while generating fabulous profits.

Some previous Pirates ownership groups did not make an honest investment in the product, but you were complaining specifically about Nutting, and Nutting has only been majority partner since shortly before the 2007 season. As such, the majority of those twenty years have ####-all to do with his track record as an owner. Which you'd know, if not for the whole ignorant-or-dishonest thing I mentioned earlier.

For instance, it's interesting that you didn't mention that the Pirates' 2009 profit according to the leaked books was only $5.4M (down from 2008, which in turn was down from 2007), or that in all three seasons that "profit" was a paper profit on the books rather than money taken out of the franchise to personally enrich the owners. The team didn't even disburse money to cover the owners' capital gains taxes. And of course, while the ML payroll has stayed low (chiefly because quality free agents WON'T SIGN HERE and none of the internal players have been worth extending), the team has been spending money hand-over-fist on other areas of operations: the draft, the international talent budget, millions of dollars in renovations to the spring training facility, a whole new Dominican academy, purchasing an A+ affiliate and moving it in order to consolidate operations, etc.

You're complaining about something that's not true, and hasn't been for years.

The Yankees haven't consigned this moribund team to the second-division, they're only helping to fund the effort.

They aren't the only reason the team has been bad, but I'm pretty sure the Pirates would have at least a slightly better record with an extra $100M a year to spend on the roster.

Some previous Pirates ownership groups did not make an honest investment in the product, but you were complaining specifically about Nutting, and Nutting has only been majority partner since shortly before the 2007 season.

Just to clarify, the Nuttings had been the biggest single shareholder for some time before, and Bob Nutting had been board chairman since 2003.

They aren't the only reason the team has been bad, but I'm pretty sure the Pirates would have at least a slightly better record with an extra $100M a year to spend on the roster.

They could have been the Mets or the O's.

Just to clarify, the Nuttings had been the biggest single shareholder for some time before, and Bob Nutting had been board chairman since 2003.

True, the Nuttings had been working to secure majority control for several years, by buying out smaller partners, but McClatchy was the one responsible for day-to-day operations as Managing General Partner and CEO. Littlefield reported to McClatchy, and McClatchy was the one who represented the team during meetings with MLB. It wasn't until the 2007 palace coup that any of the Nuttings took an active role in the running of the franchise.

There's a subset of Pirates fans that likes to throw around conspiracy theories about the Nuttings, but there's simply no evidence to support them.

They could have been the Mets or the O's.

The Mets were in the playoffs as recently as 2006. I don't think many Pirates fans would complain if the team had made the postseason back then...

A huge financial edge resulting from exclusive media rights in the largest market in the country.

Three of the four MLB teams that ever played in that market ran into extreme financial trouble. It's not as easy as cashing a revenue sharing check clipping a coupon.

Three of the four MLB teams that ever played in that market ran into extreme financial trouble.

Back in the days before cable TV, when players rode dinosaurs to get to work.

I've been an in-person autograph collector for about twenty years, and can vouch for the fact that I've had an easier time getting an autograph from Bonds than I've had with Van Slyke.