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I bet you they've lost another 10 from SS (Peralta) and the cast of thousands at second base.
3.bobm posted on September 21, 2012 at 09:12 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
For single seasons, Playing for the DET, From 2011 to 2012, Played 50% of games at 1B or 3B
Rk Player OPS+ Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R RBI BA OBP SLG OPS Pos
1 Brandon Inge 51 2011 34 DET AL 102 303 269 29 23 .197 .265 .283 .548 *5/D
2 Wilson Betemit 134 2011 29 DET AL 40 133 120 11 19 .292 .346 .525 .871 *5
3 Miguel Cabrera 181 2011 28 DET AL 161 688 572 111 105 .344 .448 .586 1.033 *3/D
4 Prince Fielder 148 2012 28 DET AL 148 637 534 77 100 .303 .405 .515 .920 *3/D
5 Miguel Cabrera 170 2012 29 DET AL 147 641 570 101 130 .333 .398 .616 1.014 *5/D3
Rk Player WAR/pos Year Age Tm Lg
1 Brandon Inge -1.2 2011 34 DET AL
2 Wilson Betemit 0.4 2011 29 DET AL
3 Miguel Cabrera 7.3 2011 28 DET AL
4 Prince Fielder 3.7 2012 28 DET AL
5 Miguel Cabrera 6.4 2012 29 DET AL
10 runs lost on fielding vs 3.6 WAR gained to date. How did this part of Detroit's plan not work out?
4.JJ1986 posted on September 21, 2012 at 09:24 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
How did this part of Detroit's plan not work out?
I think the fair comparison is 2012 Cabrera at 3B/Delmon at DH to hypothetical-2012 Inge at 3B/Cabrera at DH. That probably would have worked better (though I have no idea who the Tigers backup 3Bmen is then. Probably Don Kelly.
I bet you they've lost another 10 from SS (Peralta) and the cast of thousands at second base.
BRef has Peralta as dead avg. on D, Fangraphs at +10.
I tend to believe avg. more.
6.Walt Davis posted on September 21, 2012 at 09:49 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
According to b-r, the big culprits are Boesch and Berry (both at -8) and, yeah, it looks like the parade of 2B have been about -5 or worse. Adding it all up by overall WAR:
Baker -.4
Berry .1
Boesch -1.2
Dirks 1.7
Infante .6
Inge -.5
Kelly -.9
Raburn -2
Santiago -.8
Worth -.3
Young -.7
That comes to -4.4 WAR. Given we're talking about 4 positions, that's 12 wins below average at 2B, LF, RF and DH. Any team would struggle to overcome that.
I think part of the reason the plan didn't work is that no option emerged at DH. Out of the corner outfield/DH squad, Dirks has had a good year, Delmon has been Delmon, and then Raburn and Boesch absolutely cratered.
I don't think expecting Raburn and Boesch to play like slightly-above replacement players was an absurd expectation.
8.JJ1986 posted on September 21, 2012 at 09:55 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
That comes to -4.4 WAR. Given we're talking about 4 positions, that's 12 wins below average at 2B, LF, RF and DH. Any team would struggle to overcome that.
The LFers have to be giving positive value (Dirks, Berry and assorted), so it's even worse at the other 3 spots.
I don't know how the defensive statistics deal with extra bases through missing the cut-off man, throwing to the wrong base, not covering a base etc, but they are also terrible there. I think the typical fan grossly over values "fundamnetals," but the Tigers might be the excpetion -- it really is costing them runs and games.
10.Walt Davis posted on September 21, 2012 at 07:01 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
I don't think expecting Raburn and Boesch to play like slightly-above replacement players was an absurd expectation.
No, it wasn't but it wouldn't have been absurd to think that Brandon Inge would as well. And in fact Inge was barely above replacement on the year as a whole. What's somewhat surprising about that list is that not only did those guys hit like crap but most of them were below-average fielders as well.
But the key point is that you don't risk moving Cabrera to 3B -- where he was likely to be terrible defensively but hasn't been and where the risk of injury is surely higher -- in order to get players like Young, Raburn and Boesch into the game. The Tigers are apparently the last people on earth who think Delmon Young can hit.
In comparison, last year we had Youkilis going back to 3B, making room for Gonzalez and with Ortiz blocking the DH slot. That's a case where the payoff from the risk is obvious. Had they signed Fielder before VMart was hurt, then Cabrera's move would have been very similar to Youk's. And maybe next year that's the way it will work.
Had they signed Fielder before VMart was hurt, then Cabrera's move would have been very similar to Youk's. And maybe next year that's the way it will work.
I don't think they'd have done the Fielder signing if VMart wasn't hurt. BUT I do think the Tigers, at least partially, had 2013 in mind when Miggy made the move to third. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit.
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1. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong posted on September 21, 2012 at 06:27 AM # hit 0 | hit 0I bet you they've lost another 10 from SS (Peralta) and the cast of thousands at second base.
10 runs lost on fielding vs 3.6 WAR gained to date. How did this part of Detroit's plan not work out?
I think the fair comparison is 2012 Cabrera at 3B/Delmon at DH to hypothetical-2012 Inge at 3B/Cabrera at DH. That probably would have worked better (though I have no idea who the Tigers backup 3Bmen is then. Probably Don Kelly.
BRef has Peralta as dead avg. on D, Fangraphs at +10.
I tend to believe avg. more.
Baker -.4
Berry .1
Boesch -1.2
Dirks 1.7
Infante .6
Inge -.5
Kelly -.9
Raburn -2
Santiago -.8
Worth -.3
Young -.7
That comes to -4.4 WAR. Given we're talking about 4 positions, that's 12 wins below average at 2B, LF, RF and DH. Any team would struggle to overcome that.
I don't think expecting Raburn and Boesch to play like slightly-above replacement players was an absurd expectation.
The LFers have to be giving positive value (Dirks, Berry and assorted), so it's even worse at the other 3 spots.
No, it wasn't but it wouldn't have been absurd to think that Brandon Inge would as well. And in fact Inge was barely above replacement on the year as a whole. What's somewhat surprising about that list is that not only did those guys hit like crap but most of them were below-average fielders as well.
But the key point is that you don't risk moving Cabrera to 3B -- where he was likely to be terrible defensively but hasn't been and where the risk of injury is surely higher -- in order to get players like Young, Raburn and Boesch into the game. The Tigers are apparently the last people on earth who think Delmon Young can hit.
In comparison, last year we had Youkilis going back to 3B, making room for Gonzalez and with Ortiz blocking the DH slot. That's a case where the payoff from the risk is obvious. Had they signed Fielder before VMart was hurt, then Cabrera's move would have been very similar to Youk's. And maybe next year that's the way it will work.
I don't think they'd have done the Fielder signing if VMart wasn't hurt. BUT I do think the Tigers, at least partially, had 2013 in mind when Miggy made the move to third. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit.
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