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    • Thursday, May 02, 2013

    OT: The Soccer Thread, May 2013

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    posted 3 weeks ago by Shooty is in the Trust Tree to soccer  |  889 comment(s)

    This is it, the biggest month of the year for soccer. Some key games/dates:

    May 2nd: Europa League semifinals—Benfica v Fenerbahce and Chelsea v Basel

    May 4th: Final day of the season in England’s second division. Wolves look done but Barnsley will attempt to escape the drop. Meanwhile, Nottingham Forest and Leicester City will try to snatch the last play off spot from Bolton while Hull needs a win to secure automatic promotion or risk losing it to Watford.

    May 8th: Chelsea v Tottenham

    ...Read More...

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    Page 3 of 36 pages  < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >  Last ›
    101. Mattbert posted on January 03, 2013 at 11:34 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Fulham is less obvious than the big two, but everything I've read suggests they're substantially subsidized by periodic donations/loans from Al-Fayed. Bolton surely had more than a whiff of patronage; sort of a Chelsea writ small.

    If you're going to put Liverpool in the money-in/money-out bucket, I think Spurs and Everton clearly qualify as well by whatever measure you choose to make that distinction.

    Stoke seem to have bought an awful lot of players and sold comparatively few in the last couple years to be fully self-sustaining unless their revenues have skyrocketed since becoming a regular in the top flight.

    If you cut "make their money back on a sale" out of the equation, you could easily consider the Yankees to be a "patronage" when in fact they're a massively successful business because of the appreciation of team prices.

    Is that a good comparison? I would have thought the Yankees' payroll:revenue / wages:turnover ratio would be way, way better than that of just about any English football club. Speaking as a Red Sox and Tottenham fan, I would much rather own the Yankees than Spurs. From a business perspective anyway.
    102. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo posted on January 03, 2013 at 11:36 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I can't vouch for the credibility of this guy, but if the following is true, it's a good illustration of the previous conversation on why looking at the transfer fee by itself isn't always a good idea:

    Ba: 7mil fee, 5mil agents fees, 6-7mil a year for 4.5 years, can't be insured. He'd cost somewhere between 39 and 42mil in total.

    Link.
    103. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 03, 2013 at 11:38 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    He'd cost somewhere between 39 and 42mil in total.

    Holy Toledo!
    104. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 03, 2013 at 11:40 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    This is a nice gesture

    But I'll be more impressed if this happens during a game the players care about.
    105. Matt Clement of Alexandria posted on January 03, 2013 at 11:40 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Forbes has estimated the Yankees operating income at $10-20M. That's good, but it's peanuts compared to the profits attainable by selling the Yankees.

    I was wrong to use the term "patronage" - my point was more that cutting re-sale / franchise value out of the equation leads to a significantly flawed picture of the financial state of a sports team.

    Generally, it seems to me that super rich people really love owning sports teams, and if you own a sports team, you usually have the option of selling it to a super rich person for a lot of money. And with the growing richness of the super rich all over the world, that's only making it a better investment.
    106. I am going to be Frank posted on January 03, 2013 at 11:41 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I would guess the only really "safe" clubs are Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham and City. Even City is dubious if the sheikh gets bored and decides to pull out - there were in Division 3 back in 1999. I could see Everton potentially being in trouble once Moyes leaves and they make a bad manager decision. Leeds is a big club and they've still haven't returned. Ken Bates is a reprehensible human being but it wasn't like there was a huge line to buy Leeds when they went into bankruptcy.
    107. Mattbert posted on January 03, 2013 at 11:42 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Newcastle was Ashley's plaything when he first bought it then he realized that he didn't know what he was doing, hired Pardew who bought a bunch of French league players, got them decent again and then promptly gave him a 20-year contract (ok only 8.5 years).

    I still say there's shenanigans there. Pardew has denied it, but there were persistent rumors that he'd racked up some considerable debts to some regular gambling buddies: Mike Ashley and Derek Llambias.
    108. Mattbert posted on January 03, 2013 at 11:49 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    My point was more that cutting re-sale / franchise value out of the equation leads to a significantly flawed picture of the financial state of a sports team.

    Generally, it seems to me that super rich people really love owning sports teams, and if you own a sports team, you usually have the option of selling it to a super rich person for a lot of money. And with the growing richness of the super rich all over the world, that's only making it a better investment.

    Yeah, I'm on board with all this. I think the earlier point about the lack of relegation risk for American sports franchises making them a lot more attractive as investment vehicles is a good one, though.

    There's definitely a vanity aspect to all team ownership, but I think the scales in football are tilted more toward that end of the spectrum (as opposed to the business/moneymaking end) more often than they are in our domestic sports. There are precious few English clubs I'd buy with the expectation of making a lot of money, whereas I'd happily write a check for just about any American team you'd care to name (besides the NHL). Assuming someone would sell me one for like thirty grand, anyway.
    109. Mattbert posted on January 03, 2013 at 01:51 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    @SpursOfficial: We're delighted to announce that we have reached agreement with Standard Liege for the signing of Zeki Fryers.
    Wow, the rumors were true. Ha. Up yours, Fergie!
    110. Matt Clement of Alexandria posted on January 03, 2013 at 01:52 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Spurs sign Zeki Fryers from Standard Liege. The reported fee is £3M, half the expected fee that Tottenham would have had to pay United under the tribunal system in the fall. Looks pretty clearly like an under the table deal by Daniel Levy to save few million pounds.

    EDIT: Ah, coke to Mattbert.
    111. Mattbert posted on January 03, 2013 at 01:59 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I wonder if we'll see that loophole closed eventually.
    112. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 03, 2013 at 02:04 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I wonder if we'll see that loophole closed eventually.

    Yeah, I brought this up in last month's thread. It definitely seems underhanded, but, then again, I believe Man U has someone that actually sits on the tribunal that determines these fees so I can't blame Levy for getting sneaky. 6 million for Fryers was a pretty ridiculous fee and Man U shouldn't have been dicks about it. Putting that aside, long term, the FA needs to fix this as it will be smaller clubs that will get hurt by these kind of shenanigans.

    Also, with Fryers coming aboard and Adam Smith impressing the hell out of everyone, I think that's about it for Danny Rose as a Spur. Only one goal but he'll always be a legend because of it.
    113. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP posted on January 03, 2013 at 02:12 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    It's interesting to me that American sports are generally ignored outside of North America (there are of course exceptions) but we've got all the money. Case in point:

    I can't vouch for the credibility of this guy, but if the following is true, it's a good illustration of the previous conversation on why looking at the transfer fee by itself isn't always a good idea:

    Ba: 7mil fee, 5mil agents fees, 6-7mil a year for 4.5 years, can't be insured. He'd cost somewhere between 39 and 42mil in total.


    In the NFL, NBA and MLB we wouldn't give pause to a 4/$40M contract to a player with a bum knee. The player would either produce and be worth it or they'd just cut him or pawn him off to another team. A player like Torres would have been cut by now, Andy Carroll and Wesley Sniejder would have been unloaded for late draft picks, etc. But the biggest teams in the biggest leagues in the biggest sport in the world can't afford to eat the money.
    114. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 03, 2013 at 02:20 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I don't know if it matters, but evidently it was Mancini that attacked Balotelli today after Balotelli tackled Scott Sinclair with what Mancini considered undue recklessness. Is this his Woody Hayes moment? Although, if Mourinho doesn't even miss a game for cowardly assaulting another team's coach, I can't imagine this will cause many ripples. I think it's funny that Balotelli may not have been the nutter in this situation though he did drive off in a "camouflaged bentley" making him still a nutter, but a different kind than Mancini. Those Italians, huh? Long may they bring a little of that Serie A magic to England!
    115. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 03, 2013 at 02:41 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    116. Mattbert posted on January 03, 2013 at 03:03 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I love that Harry's big present to himself after toppling Chelsea is apparently going to be Tal Ben Haim.
    117. vortex of dissipation posted on January 03, 2013 at 03:06 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I think it's funny that Balotelli may not have been the nutter in this situation though he did drive off in a "camouflaged bentley" making him still a nutter, but a different kind than Mancini.


    Oh, he does actually drive this. Pics.
    118. Mattbert posted on January 03, 2013 at 03:34 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Richard Jolly does that thing that I said drives me bonkers:
    It has not escaped attention that Liverpool, with their track record of paying over the odds, enabled Chelsea to make a £5 million profit on a striking swap while bringing in Demba Ba, scorer of more league goals in 18 months at Newcastle than Sturridge has managed in his entire career. The Senegalese's chronic knee problems reduced his fee and will curtail his career but in the short term, Chelsea will have the better deal once it all goes through.
    119. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 03, 2013 at 04:05 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    West Ham after Marouane Chamakh. The final piece?
    120. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) posted on January 03, 2013 at 04:09 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    West Ham after Marouane Chamakh. The final piece?
    Even though he's a striker--what I think they need--I oppose this move on the grounds that I will probably learn how one says his name just in time for him to be transferred to Ligue 1 or something where I'll ne'er hear it again.
    121. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 03, 2013 at 04:12 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Even though he's a striker--what I think they need--I oppose this move on the grounds that I will probably learn how one says his name just in time for him to be transferred to Ligue 1 or something where I'll ne'er hear it again.

    I think his hair is enough to oppose this move. It is genuinely disgusting.
    122. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) posted on January 03, 2013 at 04:15 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Just saw the Mancini/Balotelli photos. How the #### does Mancini keep his job? I can't think of another sport where a coach could physically attack a player and keep their job.
    123. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 03, 2013 at 04:20 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    None of the news rags are making a big deal about the Fryers transfer which I find puzzling because of its larger implications. Fryers himself is probably not a big deal and I'd bet 20 bucks Fryers is never more than a token player for Spurs, but it seems to me the implications of clubs skirting the academy player tribunals would make a few people nervous.
    124. JuanGone..except1game posted on January 03, 2013 at 04:21 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Randy Lerner has, as was noted above, a history of hiring mediocre management and giving them free rein. He's not blameless here.


    As a big time Cleveland Browns fan <cough>Holmgren<cough>, I can second this assessment.

    Reflecting the game tactically, I think 'Arry played it very well, and Benitez played it poorly. Benitez started two true wingers in Marin and Moses, but he was facing a 4-5-1 in which the fullbacks barely came forward at all and the wide midfielders carried significant defensive responsibilities too. The Chelsea wingers don't have a lot of creativity in their games and were mostly neutralized, and QPR still had three men in midfield to defend Oscar and Lampard through the middle. Luiz got free a bunch because QPR sat so deep, but he didn't do too much with the space.


    Good assessment of that loss yesterday. Starting both Marin and Moses was ridiculous. Hazard or Mata needed to be out there, especially with our recent history of putting on crap performences against QPR. Marin is a disaster at this point. I don't want to right him off, but he's like a bad, small version of Arjen Robben out there. All he wants to do is cut inside which works 1 out of every 10 times. And he definitely should have been shown the door after that horrific tackle in the 1st. We need to give him back to Werder Breman and take back De Bruyne who looks like the much better player.
    125. jmurph posted on January 03, 2013 at 05:27 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I think his hair is enough to oppose this move. It is genuinely disgusting.


    Very rarely is the word "disgusting" used to describe a haircut, but it's very, very appropriate in this case. Does he not have friends? A girlfriend? A mirror?
    126. jmurph posted on January 03, 2013 at 05:34 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Just saw the Mancini/Balotelli photos. How the #### does Mancini keep his job? I can't think of another sport where a coach could physically attack a player and keep their job.


    Wow, those pictures don't look good. I've generally been a Mancini apologist, and as a fan of the team I hate to agree, but yeah, that's not okay. What if Balotelli had instinctively responded by pushing him to the ground, or punching him? That would have been the end to Mario's City career, I would think, and it would have been on Mancini.
    127. I am going to be Frank posted on January 03, 2013 at 05:40 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Chamakh looks at Gervinho and thinks to himself, "my hair isn't even the worst on the Arsenal bench."

    As much as we can blame Rafa for rotating (which he could never get the hang of at Liverpool either), they were playing QPR. Chelsea even with four or five non-regulars, who still are very good players, should have taken all three point relatively easily.
    128. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) posted on January 04, 2013 at 01:06 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    129. Matt Clement of Alexandria posted on January 04, 2013 at 08:14 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    This was rumored to be basically a done deal for a while, and now Newcastle have purchased right-back Mathieu Debuchy from Lille and signed him to a long-term deal. The fee was only ~£5M, but Newcastle gave a 5.5 year contract to the 27-year-old to bring him in, so the cost on the acquisition seems to have run more to the wage side than the transfer fee side.

    I haven't seen much of Debuchy besides his highly impressive international performances in Euro 2012 and that qualifying draw against Spain, but he looked like one of the best players on the pitch in almost all the games I saw. That's a pretty huge get. Newcastle may be paying for some unproductive years down the line in order to bring him in now, but it makes some sense for the Magpies to take on a little future risk now with relegation a looming present risk.
    130. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) posted on January 04, 2013 at 08:25 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I can't think of another sport where a coach could physically attack a player and keep their job.
    Didn't Bobby Knight get caught on tape choking a player at one point? Of course, that mostly just proves your point that it takes someone of Knight's stature to survive an incident like that.
    131. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 04, 2013 at 08:42 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Mancini has decided to take the high road and not punish Balotelli for being attacked by Mancini. So, he's got that going for him...

    132. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 04, 2013 at 09:19 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    133. zack posted on January 04, 2013 at 09:56 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Brian Phillips on Blatter's MLS comments


    This summer I rode up the C&O canal from DC and then cut over through southern Pennsylvania, some of the most back-country territory on this side of the Appalachians, and I saw like 3 Barca jerseys and a handful of other Euro teams. That felt to me like things have changed pretty drastically in the last 5 years.
    134. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance posted on January 04, 2013 at 10:12 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    It's interesting to me that American sports are generally ignored outside of North America (there are of course exceptions) but we've got all the money. Case in point:

    I can't vouch for the credibility of this guy, but if the following is true, it's a good illustration of the previous conversation on why looking at the transfer fee by itself isn't always a good idea:

    Ba: 7mil fee, 5mil agents fees, 6-7mil a year for 4.5 years, can't be insured. He'd cost somewhere between 39 and 42mil in total.



    In the NFL, NBA and MLB we wouldn't give pause to a 4/$40M contract to a player with a bum knee. The player would either produce and be worth it or they'd just cut him or pawn him off to another team. A player like Torres would have been cut by now, Andy Carroll and Wesley Sniejder would have been unloaded for late draft picks, etc. But the biggest teams in the biggest leagues in the biggest sport in the world can't afford to eat the money.


    You need to look deeper than one single transfer and signing. The EPL numbers stack up comfortably to those of major US sports. just a cursory 30 second google search turns up this for 2010/11:

    Chelsea - £191m (up from £174m in 2009-10)
    Manchester City - £174m (£133m)
    Manchester United - £153m (£132m)
    Liverpool - £135m (£121m)
    Arsenal - £124m (£111m)


    That's a wage bill of about $310m for Chelsea. The average EPL team seems to be around £60m just short of $100m. That's not including transfer fees, where EPL teams tend to be huge net spenders, and i assume not including agent fees.
    135. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 04, 2013 at 10:19 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Chamakh to West Ham. Meh, he may come good. Hopefully Kevin Nolan will make him wash his hair.
    136. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) posted on January 04, 2013 at 11:13 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Chamakh to West Ham. Meh, he may come good. Hopefully Kevin Nolan will make him wash his hair.
    I have no idea if any of these guys will turn out to be worth anything--I suspect no one does, really--but I like that they are at least taking some chances on guys like Chamakh, and Ravel Morrison. I'd rather take them then the likes of the warmed-over corpse of Wayne Bridge, for example.
    137. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 04, 2013 at 11:16 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I have no idea if any of these guys will turn out to be worth anything--I suspect no one does, really--but I like that they are at least taking some chances on guys like Chamakh, and Ravel Morrison. I'd rather take them then the likes of the warmed-over corpse of Wayne Bridge, for example.

    I think there's hope for Chamakh. He's had his moments for Arsenal and then never really got a run when RVP got healthy. Chamakh and Cole seem like very un-Big Sam kind of players, which is interesting. Humorously enough, David Sullivan's son took to twitter to apologize to Hammer fans for the Chamakh signing.
    138. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:02 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    139. I am going to be Frank posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:11 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Carlton Cole is still on West Ham, right? How long is Andy Carroll out for? It would seem to me that playing two of those three along with Nolan is a recipe for boring soccer.
    140. Mattbert posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:13 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    @SpursOfficial: We're delighted to announce that we have reached agreement with Lewis Holtby to join the Club in July from Schalke, subject to medical
    ALL YUOR ATAKKING MIDS ARE BELONG TO US
    141. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:14 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Lewis Holtby is Spurs

    Joining up in July. I am 1. kind of surprised as this came out of leftfield 2. Shocked Spurs concluded negotiations in the first week of the window.

    Not sure what this means re: the Moutinho or Sissokho rumors, though. With Vertonghen, Kane, Parker and Holtby, Spurs are putting together quite the RAF unit. Good, clean-cut lads, one and all.

    edit: Coke to Mattbert. I lose spending time being snarky. As usual...
    142. Mattbert posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:20 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Not sure what this means re: the Moutinho or Sissokho rumors, though. With Vertonghen, Kane, Parker and Holtby, Spurs are putting together quite the RAF unit. Good, clean-cut lads, one and all.

    Your snark is always worth the wait, big guy.

    Don't forget Carroll in that RAF unit. Parker appears to have converted Michael Dawson to the straight and narrow as well. He's been rocking the smart part recently. Next up: Sigurdsson or Lloris.
    143. ursus arctos posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:22 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    To supplement FPH's 134, Sporting Intelligence did a survey of average salaries per player that had soccer teams in the first four places and seven of the top ten.

    There are lots of issues with the data, including how you define a team in a sport without roster limits and how one treats bonuses, tax equalization and image rights deals and exchange rates, but those don't detract from the conclusion that clubs at the top of the European leagues spend a lot of money on payroll.
    144. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:25 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Next up: Sigurdsson or Lloris.

    Hey now. Frogs don't have the bottle.

    145. Mattbert posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:31 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Maybe if Bale started going to Scotty's barber, the officials would find his appearance more trustworthy.

    "I dare say, a gentleman with such a respectable hairstyle would never lower himself to simulation! You have my confidence, good sir; a penalty it is."
    146. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:38 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Carlton Cole is still on West Ham, right? How long is Andy Carroll out for? It would seem to me that playing two of those three along with Nolan is a recipe for boring soccer.
    You can't see it, but right now Big Sam is smiling and nodding.
    147. Arnett Mead (Arjun) posted on January 04, 2013 at 12:54 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Chamakh and Cole seem like very un-Big Sam kind of players, which is interesting.

    Well, Chamakh's tag was always "good in the air", which seems like a very Big Sam thing to be, so maybe he's been purchased to further the aim of scoring on every single set piece?
    148. ursus arctos posted on January 04, 2013 at 01:18 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Chamakh could be Exhibit A to any argument comparing the proficiency of Premier League and Ligue 1 defenses in combating aerial attacks.
    149. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 04, 2013 at 01:26 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Here's one for ursus...Giuseppi Rossi to Fiorentina is imminent. U-S-A! U-S-A! sort of...
    150. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on January 04, 2013 at 01:38 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    7 million potentially rising to 10 million for Rossi. And, to think, Villareal could have named their price 2 years ago. It's been a tough couple of years for the Yellow Submarine.

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