These pics of the greatest Mazzone in Oriole history should hook you.
Read More...Reader Bruce Menard recently clued me in regarding a chapter from fairly recent MLB history that I hadn’t been aware of. It involves a guy named Jay Mazzone, who worked as a batboy for the Orioles in the late 1960s. The unusual thing about Mazzone is that he’d lost his hands when he was two years old after his snow suit caught on fire, so he used metal hooks in lieu of fingers. This certainly made him an unusual sight on ...
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< 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/story/2012-05-30/college-bank-deals-big-fees/55286302/1
Basically, privatizing and monetizing the distribution of loan funds to students, so that more people can get a cut of that. <FrankSobotka>
Humanities majors have better employment prospects, according to some article that I can't be bothered to remember where I saw. It's a stupid point.
The economically rational thing to do is to get a job, find an apartment and declare bankruptcy.
IMO, the interesting comparison would be high school costs and college costs over the last 30 years. Did HS experience the same rate of inflation in terms of cost? If not, why not?
Is this a problem more like health care or more like housing? In my opinion, that's the question to ask.
If that were true, the credit card companies would have been out of business decades ago.
Unless, of course, people don't always make such decisions with an eye strictly towards economic rationality.
Credit card debt is literally nothing like student loan debt. There's nothing that student loan debt providers can repossess. In addition, new graduates are unique in that they have very little downside to declaring bankruptcy, while cc debtors typically have more consequence.
If student loans were dischargeable, in retrospect -- I guess it would have been the best option for me, too.
I don't think everyone should be doing STEM - people have different skills and different tastes, and the world can't run on scientists alone - so I think that generally if you're not a STEM kind of person, and you are a going to college kind of person, the humanities and the social sciences are the way to go.
Strictly? No, of course not. But people here are really underselling how serious bankruptcy is, and how much it can mess up your life. Nuking your credit, eliminating yourself from home/auto/business loans, and potentially harming your employment prospects for a decade is not automatically superior to paying down manageable debt.
This is true, but my understanding is that tuition has increased at a rate way beyond the amount needed to sustain the school after budget cutbacks. Most schools are also paying through the nose for a cascading increase in "deanlets" - new subdivided adminstrative positions - as well as all the facility improvements discussed on the last page. The problems in higher education aren't unrelated to budget cutbacks at the state level, but they go well beyond that issue.
Those other factors are hugely important, and I didn't mean to suggest that they weren't. But one of the reasons you're seeing this problem come to a head is that, in the wake of the crisis, tuition keeps rising, while the quality of the product has leveled off. And the return on investment has become a lot less certain, due to the cratered job market. You're still far better off going to college than not, but if you buy the product as they're packaging it, you're pretty well screwed for a substantial stretch of your life.
Rickey swipes another one, eh?
They're both unsecured debts, no real difference. You can't repossess 6 months worth of bumming around on beaches, heavy drinking and BJs either. Seriously, pissing away your financial life until you're 32 is a lousy idea. Not necessarily the worst idea depending on circumstances, but it's not a great one.
Rickey's got an eye on that Nats thread too.
You have to make payments on credit cards as you earn the debt. That's a pretty big difference. Also, you have to demonstrate a pattern of paying back debt before you get enough in unsecured credit to spend 6 months bumming around on the beach. And finally, people don't generally make decisions that screw themselves over for 10 years in exchange for one really awesome vacation. So yeah, not really the same at all.
I think that what you don't understand is that the current system involves pissing away your financial life until you're 32 (or much more!). If you take out loans for the cost of a pretty basic lifestyle for four years (edit: plus tuition), you have 100K in debt. That pretty much destroys your financial life for 15 years or more.
Not trying to undersell it at all; apologies if that's how I came across. I was simply pointing out that even if it were the right choice, that doesn't mean people would make it.
Another consequence: a lot of professional certifications are voided by bankruptcy. I noticed this fine print when I became a Novell Certified Network Engineer many years ago. Pretty sure Cisco certs are voided too.
The place where I part ways with GF has to do with his claim that a free market in student loans would function mostly as an academic meritocracy, with deserving, good, smart students receiving the bulk of the loans. Economic outcomes - especially the avoidance of real poverty and concomitant inability to repay the loan at all - are heavily dependent on class background, and any rational loan officer would base a significant part of their decision on such non-academic factors.
If we want a merit-based system for acquiring bachelor's level education, it's going to take significant non-market investment.
If you'd been paying attention to this thread, you'd know that I've been saying this for the past 100 posts. Make the debts dischargeable in bankruptcy and you won't HAVE such massive debts. Lenders won't make the loans and prices will have to fall. The loans that remain won't be nearly as onerous.
Of course they do. They take out student loans under today's conditions, don't they?
If they were potentially on the hook for all the money they force students to borrow to attend their school, a lot of them would actively try to change their habits.
Oh, okay. So let's say that the cost of tuition drops in half (I don't know how this would happen, but sure). So now you have 80K in debt. Why aren't you declaring bankruptcy again?
I assume that you know that a 6 month vacation is really nothing like trying to get a college degree. I don't get the point of this comment.
Same process went for me in college, but then I was fortunate to discover I didn't love political science after all after actually engaging in the process for a bit, and - a false start or two later - took the first temp job I could get in a large company, and resolved to work my way up. It worked out. Not that such an option is easily open to everyone, but, you know, the degree itself hasn't stood in my way at all.
Political Science lends itself very well to working in modern business in my experience. The ability to synthesize cohesive and impressive-sounding compromises between fundamentally incompatible philosophies of how the world works is always in demand, and the process of building from apparently undeniable first principles to a towering, tottering edifice of surprising conclusions? Likewise.
You're screwed either way, really, though --
Let's say I was able to get rid of my loans through bankruptcy years ago -- during that time, my credit was hardly stellar anyway because I had big loan payments (which dominoed into things like charging the phone bill, electric, etc). Near as I can tell, now in my 30s -- I'd now be in pretty much the same financial state either way, except I'd have had an extra $35k or so spread out over the last 10 years.
Making big loan payments actually increases your credit rating. Well, assuming you aren't missing payments someplace else.
That depends on the debt burden vs. the ability to pay factored against the reality of bankruptcy really sucking. In a world where college degrees are much cheaper due to dischargeable debt, and much more valuable due to fewer people getting them, it's possible to make a rational decision that you're better off paying down your student loans as opposed to taking a bankruptcy to save a relatively small amount of money up front.
Under the current model, yes, bankruptcy is the only sane option unless you have a really small nut to carry.
As I learned when buying a house, your credit score is much more a reflection of a lender being able to make money off of you, as it is a measure of your credit worthiness. The former, of course, being the incentive to lend to you.
Except under the current model you can't discharge the loans. Only under this new model. I'm still struggling to understand how this would encourage lenders to give out loans to 18-year-olds with zero credit history.
GASP! Depressingly, I think this would come dangerously close to heresy for some.
Have you failed to notice lenders handing out credit cards to students for 20 years without fears of bankruptcy?
Credit cards begin with quite low credit limits. The risk is not comparable to a $100k or more college loan.
Exactly. In fairness I haven't been an 18-year-old for a long time, but I would be surprised to learn they are offered more than a grand in unsecured debt.
Easy credit. Reduced state funding. Fancy rec center. Transforming the library into a "innovative learning space" with computers, flat screens, coffee shops, etc, because you don't learn by cracking a book. The newly created Office of Diversity with a bunch of expensive important people. (Yes, David wasn't entirely wrong). An army of IT folks (including me) to make it possible for students to enroll in classes from their iphones and a bazillion other niceties such as campus-wide wifi coverage so that I can download porn anywhere. Buildings. Buildings. More and more buildings.
Complaints that TAs can't teach? We'll found a Graduate Teaching Center (with a highly paid director and staff) which allows grad students to take teaching courses for electives and if they complete 12 hrs we'll put some stamp on their degree [I'm not sure how this helps them teach better as TAs), rather than just force every new grad student to go through a rigorous seminar when arriving on campus.
Every "problem" is solved by more and more spending, more offices, etc. Demanded by students and their helicopter parents.
Anecdotally, when I eat at chipotle 3 times a week, I buy only a burrito and feel its still too much money. Half the students around me buy a burrito, drink, and chips. Seeing undergrads drop $12 on lunch like its nothing is surprising, but daddy or a credit card makes it possible. oh, debit cards/credit cards/paying by phone and other "fake money" payments.
I knew people in the 90s who ran up $20k in debt.
Followed that with 3 years of law school, and more loans, but when I got, I had a decent job with a big firm in NYC that easily paid the loans. I can't imagine how they do it now.
"Central" was just a catchall term for a hodgepodge of residential buildings that were in between the two campuses. There wasn't a distinct Central campus, as such. 90% of the people in "Central" lived in Trent, and the rest were in these weird little four-man units that didn't have any names I ever heard.
Trent was (and maybe still is?) located on the corner of Flowers and Erwin. So, north of West campus, west of East campus, a couple blocks east of the hospital, and a hair southwest of the freeway.
What was the name of that really great used bookstore in Durham? Closed about ten years ago. I've been trying to remember, but I can't pull it out of deep storage.
In a world without the government backing, tuition would be lower and banks wouldn't be handing out 100k up front. Which is more sensible.
To reiterate, these Diversity Offices are being created in an environment where ####### everything that could be related to higher education is getting its own little deanlets. The underlying cause of these mostly money- and time-wasting adminstrative expansions isn't political correctness, it's the self-perpetuating nature of administrative offices in the context of the massive influx of new money from the tuition bubble.
Political correctness is one facet of it, but I also mentioned the Graduate Teaching Center which is in line with what you're saying. Every "problem" is solved by an importing sounding office to justify their existence.
Why would tuition be lower?
A lot of people think that college is a very important investment--so much so that they're willing to go tens of thousands of dollars in debt for it. Why wouldn't the cost of tuition go up to match what people believe it to be worth?
I understand that your argument depends on the idea of reduced demand causing tuition to lower. Why wouldn't there just be fewer suppliers? IOW--why wouldn't there be fewer colleges who charge the same amount as now (and experience the same growth in tuition as now)?
"Central" was just a catchall term for a hodgepodge of residential buildings that were in between the two campuses. There wasn't a distinct Central campus, as such. 90% of the people in "Central" lived in Trent, and the rest were in these weird little four-man units that didn't have any names I ever heard.
Okay, that explains why I never heard of either Central or Trent. When I last lived in Durham (1970) and knew its layout, pretty much everything north of Campus Drive was mill housing that was being torn down to build grad student housing. Just before they started tearing down all the old houses on Swift Avenue, my GF and I rented one of them for $75 a month. It wasn't worth it.
Trent was (and maybe still is?) located on the corner of Flowers and Erwin. So, north of West campus, west of East campus, a couple blocks east of the hospital, and a hair southwest of the freeway.
Yeah, that's the one that must have been built in the early 70's, which is also when the freeway was being built.
What was the name of that really great used bookstore in Durham? Closed about ten years ago. I've been trying to remember, but I can't pull it out of deep storage.
I stopped book scouting in the Triangle sometime in the mid-90's, which is when small town dealers began sticking big city prices on their books. The only halfway decent used shop in Durham I remember was on a side street between Broad and Ninth, called "Books Do Furnish A Room". They also had comic books. Not great, but not bad. The two best stores by far were in Chapel Hill, The Book Shop and the Avid Reader, which bookended the long block of Franklin Street that also had the Colonial Drug Store, a rather infamous location BITD, but which was still there in the mid-90's.
There was also a big shop in Durham at Five Points called The Book Exchange, but that was mostly textbooks and I don't think it survived the 80's. It was kind of a sorry place to begin with.
BTW if you want to see a fabulous site devoted to old Durham architecture and history, check out OpenDurham. It's the best small city website of its type I've ever seen, a real labor of love. (Note: The site loads slowly, but it's worth the short wait.)
Well as long as you enjoyed some quality time in her Regina...
as for the book exchange, it closed in '09. i'm not aware of any great used book stores around here... the area around that corner has been under slow redevelopment in recent years and is becoming a hub for solid restaurants (including my favorite sandwich place in town)
colonial closed in '96 - right before i moved there.
Student loans can't be discharged --> banks take little risk in issuing loans --> greater supply of loans --> more money can be spent on college tuition --> colleges raise tuition rapidly to capture their "fair share" of that money
In short, higher tuition is a byproduct of the amount of money available to students for college, which is a byproduct of the protected status for banks when it comes to student loans. Take away those protections...
Student loans can be discharged --> banks will be far more cautious in issuing loans --> lesser supply of loans --> less money can be spent on college tuition --> colleges drop tuition levels to meet lower capacity/demand
Okay. So for you, higher tuition is a supply-side phenomenon. You think it's more like housing. ISTM that there's a relatively equally likely explanation that higher tuition is a demand-side phenomenon. So I'd take your formulation here:
Education is very important --> the cost of college is exceeded by the average benefit to the student --> greater demand for college education --> more money can be spent on college tuition --> colleges raise tuition rapidly to capture their "fair share" of that money
In that formulation, reducing the supply of student loans does nothing to reduce cost, and instead simply changes the debt or reduces the supply of colleges. I don't think that the supply side explanation is inherently more persuasive than the demand-side explanation, which is why I'm very skeptical of the idea that student loans can be blamed for the cost of college.
If the supply-side explanation were true, why haven't high schools experienced the same rate of growth in cost?
Lenders have already seriously tightened up credit and started making fewer private student loans. I worked at Sallie Mae until last year, and starting in 2008 they severely tightened up their lending policies. Several banks have dropped out of the market. The only lender that has been increasing the number of private loans is Discover and I'm not sure how they are doing it.
Sallie Mae is lobbying FOR making student loans dischargeable. It's a good idea, but it won't change how lenders' credit practices. Those changes already happened, and they don't want to lend to anyone who would end up in bankruptcy no matter what the law is.
Why does greater demand lead to "more money can be spent"? People don't have more money to spend just by wanting to spend it or wishing they could spend it. It has to be available to them. I suppose what you're really arguing is that the loans exist because the cost is so high. But couldn't the same thing be said of housing--that mortgages are the way they are because the prices are so high, not vice versa? Yet price raising because of demand generally happens more incrementally than college tuition has gone up; the trick there is to get the consumer to pay a little more at a time, so he doesn't really notice till it's too late. It's exploratory. With tuition, we've seen increases of 60 percent in the course of four or five years. Businesses don't raise prices that much as an experiment, to see if people will pay. They do it because they know people will pay, because the money will be available to them through credit and they'll have no other choice.
The 2008 financial crisis and the ensuing tightening of the job market have richly demonstrated that college is not the kind of investment that warrants such wild spending. If people were looking at going to college as an investment, there would have been a significant decrease in applications and enrollment over the past four years, as the idea that it wasn't such a good investment after all became more prevalent. Has there been such a decrease? And with that decrease in demand, there would, if tuition was demand based, have been a leveling off of tuition. Instead, it's continued increasing exponentially.
But people clearly aren't looking at going to college as an investment, because they're enrolling in ever greater numbers even though it's an increasingly bad investment. College is considered more of a social obligation than an investment; there's a stigma attached, in people's minds, to not going.
Well, that's just as good as the investment theory, right? The colleges have a captive audience and raise their tuition because of the demand. But I don't think that's it. Student loans have exploded not because of the demand, but because of the social stigma. They may have started as a stimulus package of sorts, to help people obtain educations that would create a more skilled and productive citizenry, etc., but these days they're a social program. And with the government loaning as much as it takes, the institutions increase how much it takes.
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