Yep, because Melky was probably thinking "well its only 50 games if I get caught, but if was 100, no way would I cheat!"

Wisdom from Mr. Amphetamines.

Well, as a PED user himself, Aaron may have some insight into the issue.

I really want to know why no reporter has the stones to ask Hank about his PED use. I mean it is one thing if Hank was simply going around the country talking about how great baseball is or simply relaying anecdotes from his playing days but that isn't what he is doing. If Hank is gonna wade into the PED discussion then he should have to answer questions about his own use and yet I've never ever seen it brought up.

the punishments aren't NEAR enough for such pol pot level evildoers

first, they should have their children taken away
if they don't have any children, they should be castrated
then horsewhipped
then gang raped
then all of their money and property taken away
then their fingers chopped off to make sure they can play ball any more
then they should be blinded so as they can't even SEE the game again

then they should be punished

which reminds me

steroids

i haven't seen david nieporent around in quite a while - did he get banned or something?

Sorry - I was distracted. I was watching ESPN and an ad regarding how to boost your testosterone. What did Aaron say about Melky and punishments for using (illegal and/or banned) PED's?

I really want to know why no reporter has the stones to ask Hank about his PED use. I mean it is one thing if Hank was simply going around the country talking about how great baseball is or simply relaying anecdotes from his playing days but that isn't what he is doing. If Hank is gonna wade into the PED discussion then he should have to answer questions about his own use and yet I've never ever seen it brought up.

That would be because, fair or not, nobody on earth thinks of stimulants as "PEDs" except people who comment on this website.

the punishments aren't NEAR enough for such pol pot level evildoers

first, they should have their children taken away
if they don't have any children, they should be castrated
then horsewhipped
then gang raped
then all of their money and property taken away
then their fingers chopped off to make sure they can play ball any more
then they should be blinded so as they can't even SEE the game again

then they should be punished

I'm RMc, and I approve of this treatment of Yankees fans.

Should ask him if he's helping OJ to find the real killers.

i haven't seen david nieporent around in quite a while - did he get banned or something?

I'm pretty sure that he didn't get banned. Jim lets other posters carry on like angry second graders so I feel comfortable saying that DNP did not cross the line. I think I remember seeing something that DNP was going to be busy with his work, etc., so that is likely why he hasn't been around.

That would be because, fair or not, nobody on earth thinks of stimulants as "PEDs" except people who comment on this website.

I know what you mean, but MLB does seem to think this way, as evidenced by those minor-leaguers who just got suspended yesterday.

That would be because, fair or not, nobody on earth thinks of stimulants as "PEDs" except people who comment on this website.

After a 5 second Google Search, people that comment on this website must include those:

The Mayo Clinic
CBC
The National Institute of Health
MLB's Collective Bargaining Agreement
The World Anti-Doping Agency
ESPN's Special on Drugs in Sport
American Society for Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics

And an AP/AOL poll on steroids, the people polled on whether they cared about steroids were 63% a lot, 21% a little, 16% not at all. On whether they cared about amphetamine usage in baseball, it was 58% a lot, 25% a little, and 14% not at all, 3% unsure.

Seems that it's a relevant question for a journalist to ask.

Seems that it's a relevant question for a journalist to ask.

But aren't we talking about two separate things. Hank's use, like Barry's or Arod's or Mac's, was in the dark ages when baseball had no specific policy (or punishment) against PED usage. So whether one dabbled (as Hank has admitted to doing, which is why we know about his PED usage in the first place and makes these demands that he talk about his usage kind of odd: "Hey, you told us you used PEDs once. Now tell us again.") or gone whole hog (which Hank might very well have done), neither would preclude him from commenting on what the penalty should be for guys who are violating baseball's written policies as they exist now.

I just don't see that Hank's past usage in an entirely different environment is an impediment to sharing his opinion on the proper punishment for today's transgressors (and I'd say the same thing about McGwire, were he so inclined to opine).

Baseball instituted its drug policies after the 2003 "anonymous" sample testing. Anything that happened before that - well, unless someone was caught with a Schedule I, II or III drug and prosecuted, you leave it alone. And if a drug that was not deemed illegal by the federal government is later added to the MLB banned substance list and a person (supposedly) used it during that past period, let it be.

I view the institution of testing and the MLB-MLBPA CBA listed punishments as the bright line to be defended - not what happened twenty years before. And whatever happens, the adoption of WADA and USADA Napoleonic Code style "non-analytic" and "comfortable satisfaction" standards of evidence must be resisted.

Anything that happened before that - well, unless someone was caught with a Schedule I, II or III drug and prosecuted, you leave it alone. And if a drug that was not deemed illegal by the federal government is later added to the MLB banned substance list and a person (supposedly) used it during that past period, let it be.

I guess that's the rub. While MLB players (and other pro athletes) were never prosecuted, amps have been a scheduled drug for a very long time.

So a guy like Aaron, who admits illegally using a regulated drug, deserves a free pass? Teenagers think it's cool that "it's only illegal if you get caught", but we adults tend to think differently.

Baseball instituted its drug policies after the 2003 "anonymous" sample testing. Anything that happened before that - well, unless someone was caught with a Schedule I, II or III drug and prosecuted, you leave it alone.

That's my opinion, too.

But if you're talking with a guy who doesn't go by that, as Aaron's clearly indicated in the past, the fact that the guy also did PEDs under the exact same scenario as Bonds shouldn't be something to be avoided.

C'mon, Hank, you know you want an asterisk as punishment.

I've been gone for a while but I can't say it surprises me that Chris Dial's mendacious formula that not only are All Drugs Equal but also Intent is Irrelevant, has become an official plank in the BTF We Love Cheaters platform.

i haven't seen david nieporent around in quite a while - did he get banned or something?

Are you kidding? Before the changeover, people's handles were spoofed often and with absolute impunity. Except for Neosporin's. When he was spoofed _once_ in the Chomsky thread, a certain moderator who <3s Neosporin because they share the same Randroid parts bin was lightning quick to respond. Whoever the spoofer was, he was banhammered faster than Yun Tarugoshi. No, Nieporent isn't banned; if bannings ever became widespread he'd be the last primate standing, so totally is he protected and coddled and no doubt snuggled by at least one authority. My theory is that RDP is Nieporent's alter ego, a character he slips into after reading or watching something inspiring, like, say, Patrick Bateman stabbing a homeless person, or an IDF trooper bulldozing a Palestinian teenager, the really uplifting stuff.

Hank did not tell us yet. He had a paragraph in a book about it and there has been no follow up. If Roger Clemens writes a book and in it he says that the only drug he ever used was one pill of speed does that mean the whole thing is over and done with? That we shouldn't ask him questions about his possible drug use at that point?

So yes I think we should be asking Hank about his drug use. We should be asking him to give us more detail than just two or three sentences in a book. I don't think that is so unreasonable to ask of man who is opining about PED use in baseball.

Is JCinDC still around or did he get banned like Kevin and Backlasher?

I can't say it surprises me that Chris Dial's mendacious formula that...Intent is Irrelevant, has become an official plank in the BTF We Love Cheaters platform.

Intent has always been irrelevant. If it weren't, then people who took banned substances as a result of accidental contamination, like J.C. Romero, wouldn't have been punished.

So yes I think we should be asking Hank about his drug use. We should be asking him to give us more detail than just two or three sentences in a book. I don't think that is so unreasonable to ask of man who is opining about PED use in baseball.

If he's talking about the punishment for people caught using PED under the current rules, as he was here, then no I don't think it's necessary to ask about his own drug use. And if Roger Clemens wants to offer his take on what baseball should do with test violators, then it's not necessary that he opens up about his history of usage (and, in both Hank and Roger's cases, no amount of honesty on the subject would ever be enough).

No one ver asked me what should be done with the KC and SF players that took cocaine.

Bob,

What should be done with the KC and SF players that took cocaine?

the punishments aren't NEAR enough for such pol pot level evildoers

first, they should have their children taken away
if they don't have any children, they should be castrated
then horsewhipped
then gang raped
then all of their money and property taken away
then their fingers chopped off to make sure they can play ball any more
then they should be blinded so as they can't even SEE the game again

This is the problem; bleeding hearts coddling these war criminals.

SOSH - I'm glad that you asked.

They were punished in federal court for their use of truly illegal substances which have no performance enhancing value (except if you have the shakes and a need a fix, I guess).

Personally, I would have loved to have banned them from the game for life, as their use hurt the team and our chance to win as a team - and followed me in my post-career job search. They associated with dealers and certain people who could have parlayed addiction or fear of blackmail into gambling profits. What they did makes me think of the Black Sox scandal and was potentially far more dangerous than anything during the "steroid era".

Practically, you were dealing with people who may need medical assistance to recover and get on with their lives - that 40 to 60 year period after you leave baseball. I wouldn't want the knowledge that I helped throw someone out the door and that they died of an OD soon thereafter on my conscience. Cocaine addiction is an illness and far different than steroid usage in that regard.

I would have allowed them the ability to play after their time in jail, but only under strict rules of comportment, testing and control - no alcohol, all medicines, vitamins to be known by team physicians, no strip clubs or bars. This program would last as long as they played or broadcasted games. Any failure would remove them from the game forever but send them back to an employee assitance paln treatment regimen.

Yep, because Melky was probably thinking "well its only 50 games if I get caught, but if was 100, no way would I cheat!"

+1.

Cycling bans first-time offenders for 2 years. Cycling conducts more testing than any other sport I know of. Cycling prosecutes retired athletes for offenses more than a decade old. Cycling even involves the gendarmerie in anti-doping efforts, conducting hotel raids during the sport's premier event. And what sport is seen as having the worst doping problem? Yep, cycling.

Meanwhile, over in the NFL, if I'm not mistaken, they don't conduct off-season testing, they suspend 1st-time offenders for 4 games, and they have hundreds of guys that weigh 300 lbs and sprint faster than running backs did in days of yore. And the NFL's reputation is way better than cycling's.

How about golf? Doesn't test at all, millions of dollars to be made, and today's players hit the ball much farther than yesterday's players did. I'm 100% confident that golf has doping, but does it have a doping problem? Doesn't seem like it.

If baseball wants to damage/further damage its reputation, it should follow Hank's advice.

I've been gone for a while but I can't say it surprises me that Chris Dial's mendacious formula that not only are All Drugs Equal but also Intent is Irrelevant, has become an official plank in the BTF We Love Cheaters platform.

I think it's as much burnout as anything else. Kevin got zapped, you've stopped posting, JC stays in the NBA threads, ditto Backlasher, Joey's marginilized himself with his over-the-top political rants, and I more or less confine myself to enjoying the sort of powerless sputtering that you refer to. AFAIC it's better to have them here on BTF where they harmlessly occupy themselves with refuting Murray Chass.

That would be because, fair or not, nobody on earth thinks of stimulants as "PEDs" except people who comment on this website.

Well, the players do. If it doesn't enhance performance, whats the point?

Harlond, I agree with points one and two. Golf has a technology problem. The USGA regulates the tech good enough that golf courses outside of tour stops havent had to change yardages yet. If there are any PED's that help hand/eye coordination then I could see it. Strength has little to do with hitting distances in golf. Same thing applies to bowling. There is no PED use on tour. I could name three people, maybe that have ever been a possible candidate. It does have an illegal drug problem, though. Its getting better, but its probably the reason the PBA does not have a drug policy. Half the tour would be wiped out. But it has a MAJOR tech problem. Technology has made the game stupid easy for the amateur. Scores have blown up only in the last 30 years. Really in a period from 30-10 years ago. They have leveled off some only because I think the ceiling has been reached. There are hundrreds of people with 10 or more perfect games now. And a few over 100!! I have 72 and I'm only halfway to the record with no way to catch up. Thats just stupid.

Golf started a testing policy as of July 1st, 2008.

Tiger Woods' last major victory? June 12-15th, 2008, the US Open at Torrey Pines. Woods injured his knee and did not play the rest of 2008, but said on a conference call that he took his own drug tests and he was clean.

Coincidence?

AFAIC it's better to have them here on BTF where they harmlessly occupy themselves with refuting Murray Chass.

Given the number from that side of the debate that now write in mass media, The Union apparently had very poor security measures in place.

I've wanted to ask you, Bob (about the coke dudes) - just never have.

Baseball instituted its drug policies after the 2003 "anonymous" sample testing. Anything that happened before that - well, unless someone was caught with a Schedule I, II or III drug and prosecuted, you leave it alone.
That's my opinion, too.

But if you're talking with a guy who doesn't go by that, as Aaron's clearly indicated in the past, the fact that the guy also did PEDs under the exact same scenario as Bonds shouldn't be something to be avoided

Sums it up for me.

#28. I am still here and still don't care about steroids, or at least usage before official testng and sanctions were negotiated with the union. Now I still don't care, other than when folks get all moralistic about Steroids! Think of the children! beyond what was agreed to. Let baseball manage baseball, I am just here to watch the game.

Of course that puts me "in bed" with a bunch of people I really disagree with on other tings, but such is life.

As to Hank, I think you are wrong, but whatever.

+1.

Cycling bans first-time offenders for 2 years. Cycling conducts more testing than any other sport I know of. Cycling prosecutes retired athletes for offenses more than a decade old. Cycling even involves the gendarmerie in anti-doping efforts, conducting hotel raids during the sport's premier event. And what sport is seen as having the worst doping problem? Yep, cycling.

Meanwhile, over in the NFL, if I'm not mistaken, they don't conduct off-season testing, they suspend 1st-time offenders for 4 games, and they have hundreds of guys that weigh 300 lbs and sprint faster than running backs did in days of yore. And the NFL's reputation is way better than cycling's.

How about golf? Doesn't test at all, millions of dollars to be made, and today's players hit the ball much farther than yesterday's players did. I'm 100% confident that golf has doping, but does it have a doping problem? Doesn't seem like it.

I guess it depends how you define problem... publicity problem or real problem...

Doping in Cycling is so much less now than it was before testing. This is shown in the performance numbers of the athletes. No one is climbing the hills now as fast as they did in the late 90's much less 10 years ago. The reason clycing has one of the worst images in terms of doping is that a) you can get enormous advantages from doping in cycling and b)They test a lot and have all sorts of criminal investigations and non analytical positives. It was not possible to be a sucessful professional cyclist in the late 90's early 2000's without doping. That is no longer true. I dont know any other sport for which that is true.

Football testing catches all sorts of people, but most people dont care. In cycling and baseball they care.

Strength has little to do with hitting distances in golf.

You might want to tell Tiger to stop bulking up.

If it doesn't enhance performance, whats the point?

There wasn't a point. What's the "point" of me drinking a cup of coffee at 6 in the morning and 3 in the afternoon?

My theory is that RDP is Nieporent's alter ego,

Don't alter egos usually go good/evil? Because if so, that wouldn't work here, as I am seen as the stupid David, not the good or evil one.

Ray's good-bad, but he's not evil. I can't tell you about his eyes, because he always wears shades. But when I say I love him, you best believe I'm in love P-E-D.

And how are his Red Sox predictions? Close. Very... very... close.

#28. I am still here and still don't care about steroids, or at least usage before official testng and sanctions were negotiated with the union. Now I still don't care, other than when folks get all moralistic about Steroids! Think of the children! beyond what was agreed to. Let baseball manage baseball, I am just here to watch the game.

No problem with that. We're not going to resolve this issue on these forums, anyway.

Of course that puts me "in bed" with a bunch of people I really disagree with on other tings, but such is life.

Well, agreeing with Ray couldn't possibly be worse for you than lining up with Joey B on Bonds is for me, but what can you do? We're not robots.

As to Hank, I think you are wrong, but whatever.

Not sure what you mean there. I think the current penalties are about right.

Any official statements/rulings yet to the possible case of Melky Cabrera winning the batting title if his "natural" enemies fail? I still can´t believe that this has not been thought through beforehand, not sure if it has actually... nevertheless, that would be something I could never ever accept as a baseball fan ! 50, 100...it should be for life, easy as 1 2 3. Once you get caught, not elegible for anything NICE neither!

Any official statements/rulings yet to the possible case of Melky Cabrera winning the batting title if his "natural" enemies fail? I still can´t believe that this has not been thought through beforehand, not sure if it has actually... nevertheless, that would be something I could never ever accept as a baseball fan ! 50, 100...it should be for life, easy as 1 2 3. Once you get caught, not elegible for anything NICE neither!

I can understand the sentiment, but altering the record books is too much like The Commissar Vanishes for my taste. IMO Marc Ecko's asterisk on the Bonds ball represented the perfect reaction to steroid-aided accomplishments: The records remain intact in the books, but the taint shows up in the ephemeral braggadocio.

Strength has little to do with hitting distances in golf.

Comments like that remind me of the time when people used to say bulking up in baseball would hurt you as a player.

There wasn't a point. What's the "point" of me drinking a cup of coffee at 6 in the morning and 3 in the afternoon?

To enhance your performance. Without that coffee you might be dragging and ultimately your performance will go down. I know with my caffeine, my hand eye coordination gets better, my speed improves, my reactions improve, heck even my motivation/effort improves. That is the definition of a performance enhancer. Just because it's only bringing my performance back to my normal levels, doesn't mean it's not enhancing my peformance.

Heck since we are talking baseball, and numbers are oftentimes based upon averages, if you are eliminating your down times by taking an upper, your averages improve, over the performances of other guys who didn't take those substances. Is it fair for you to cheat this way, while a Mormon doesn't have that option?

have all sorts of criminal investigations and non analytical positives.

MLB was supposed to do this. I know they popped Jordan Schafer. Have they stopped or can they just not catch anybody?

JC is still here, and Backlasher wasn't banned. At least not permanently. He posts occasionally.

As to Hank, I think you are wrong, but whatever.

Not sure what you mean there. I think the current penalties are about right.

I meant to say I disagree with Hank on the penalties. Bad wording.

Are you kidding? Before the changeover, people's handles were spoofed often and with absolute impunity. Except for Neosporin's. When he was spoofed _once_ in the Chomsky thread, a certain moderator who <3s Neosporin because they share the same Randroid parts bin was lightning quick to respond. Whoever the spoofer was, he was banhammered faster than Yun Tarugoshi. No, Nieporent isn't banned; if bannings ever became widespread he'd be the last primate standing, so totally is he protected and coddled and no doubt snuggled by at least one authority.

Retardo, I'll go out on a limb and say that you're wrong about this, considering that Dan Szymborski, who I assume is the "certain moderator" you're referring to, was recently banned himself by Jim for a brief period (as was Andy). I don't remember their exact transgressions but I'm sure Andy can fill you in.

As for DMN, I believe he said he had a case going to trial and would be busy with work for a while.

What brings you back here?

I don't remember their exact transgressions but I'm sure Andy can fill you in.

I believe they were caught using SpellCheck to artificially enhance their posts.

Who we need to see again are TOLAXOR and of course TommyinCT(but then again we haven't had the Guidry HOF argument lately)

Ray sticks around because we all love his Red Sox predictions and all things Ichiro!

As for cocaine not being a PED and amphetamines being accepted as PED, all I can say from personal experience is that I pretty much had the same reaction from both; and the only heightened performance I ever got from either was heightened paranoia.

But I'm not a doctor, not do I play one on tv...just some cat who took too many recreational drugs at uni.