Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
Page 1 of 4 pages
I'll bet there were fewer "clean" records set during that era than after it.
Meanwhile every last NFL record probably has the same stain from the mid-80's to today and beyond but no one cares.
Tom Dempsey's 63 yard field goal. The first two I'm sure were obliterated (not sure about the latter)
NHL - IS there any iconic record?
NBA -- Chamberlain 100 pts in a game
There are many; they all belong to Gretzky.
I don't think anything like that has ever happened in a baseball game, but it's pretty much the same as what happened in Wilt's 100 point game.
My favorite being that Gretzky has more assists (1,963) than any other player has points (Mark Messier is second behind Gretzky with 1,887). He had just shy of 1,000 more points than Messier (2,857). Ridiculous.
Going forward, it’s going to be interesting how the game deals with its history concerning this period.
I have no doubt that players took amphetamines during the '60s and '70s, but exactly what accomplishments, hitting or pitching, leads people to believe that those greenies made a difference?
How exactly did amphetamines help Bob Gibson get a 1.12 ERA? By including "1968" without explanation are you saying amphetamines helped pitchers more than hitters?
This might be a good time to reiterate that many arguments in this vein are not posed in good faith -- as their proponents aren't really interested in a discussion of amps, and don't really care about amp use, other than as it is juxtaposed against steroid use. It remains a subspecies of concern trolling.
as their proponents aren't really interested in a discussion of amps, and don't really care about amp use
The era was contemplated with eyes wide open and the mainstream historical interpretation is that it should, not entirely but for the most part, be allowed to stand unquestioned.
The reasons are that amps weren't as effective as steroids in accomplishing their aims, and didn't impact as many games due primarily to the nature of their application. Secondary reasons are the different acceptance rates of their usage among the game's factions, and the openness of their usage.
That's too broad a brush, but yes -- generally correct. The game's factions almost unanimously don't believe amp use impacted the game for the worse as much as steriod use. The primary reason is that amps did not "enhance performance" as much or as frequently as steroids.
This is exactly the sort of mentality I was referring to in #35. There's no way to respond to an argument that frames the issue in terms of generational hero worship and / or lack of intelligence. Too bad we can't resurrect Firing Line and arrange for nightly shouting matches between Primates like this and their counterparts Chass and Gumbel.
How many games do you think Pete Rose played in that he literally could not have played in without amps? I'm not talking about the illusory "he played better," I'm talking about literally played in.
There are other historical changes that account for the numbers you see, two straightforward ones are (1) increased salaries incentivizing longevity; and (2) vast increases in quality of training and nutrition, and understanding of physiology. Add (3) the advent of year-round dedication and training; and (4) dramatic improvements in surgery and sports medicine.
The idea that amps explain the numbers in the charts barely passes the laugh test.
At best all that effect does is to restore a player's natural talent during times when he's fatigued. There is zero evidence on the playing field that it has ever done anything more than that. If you want to consider that effect in itself a form of "enhancement", that's your druthers, but it's of a nature that's distinctive from the sort of enhancement effect of added muscles.
Compared to what? Are you seriously saying that a well rested player's natural talent level would be improved by amphetamines? If (for instance) Hank Aaron had started amping up as a 20 year old, are you claiming that his career stats would be greater than they were? If not, then how does that square with what you're saying?
Is it more than zero? Did Pete Rose play a single major league game that he would not have been able to play in without popping a greenie?
I thought Aaron's age 20 season was during the "amp era."
So then, even in your mind, it's possible that Rose didn't play a single extra game as a direct result of using greenies. Why, then, should anyone take seriously the "longevity records" claim?
And what makes you think his performance without greenies would have (1) been so bad that his manager would have demanded that he be benched; and (2) that Rose would have went along with the request? Those are pure speculation ... invention, really.
I'm pretty confident that steroids are a better PED, and had larger effects on player performance than amps.
So you essentially agree with the historical consensus.
Are you seriously saying that a well rested player's natural talent level would be improved by amphetamines?
Had he taken amphetamines for those games from the beginning of his career, it's not too far-fetched to believe that he's still the all-time home run king today.
It can't be seen easily. In fact, it really can't be seen at all. There's really no case that the charts show the "effect of widespread amphetamine usage."
Of course the health benefits of HGH and amps are pretty much the same, they allow players who shouldn't be playing the ability to play.
HGH doesn't actually help you get stronger or faster, it helps you heal.
Do amphs synthesize with protein to create muscle tissue?
What would an amph regimen for training and for everyday performing look like?
(We do know that amphs are highly addictive and that you build a dosage tolerance. How does that factor in?)
This includes the you gotta pay the piper rule. Your body keeps a tab running on the rest you need. You just can't keep from paying that tab with a debt crisis.
Records get broken over time; it happens in every sport. And naturally, as time goes on, more and more people get added to things like the 300 win and 3000 hit clubs. What else would you expect?
And this is another critical difference between amps and steroids -- the number of games impacted. Amps last a game, tops.
Suddenly, it's not whether the drug is illegal or performance enhancing that matters; it's the physiological mechanism by which it enhances performance?
Yes, of course it's the mechanics by which performance is enhanced and by how much and there's nothing "sudden" about it.
What are you expecting to see? No one's saying, "Barry Bonds broke the HR career record, therefore he used amps."
You can concede that this "enhancement" happened a handful of times a year (*), and still believe roids are in an entirely different category that should be viewed entirely differently. (IOW, what was already said in 42.)
Degree of impact. See 42, above.
How is this anything but a non sequitur. Suddenly, it's not whether the drug is illegal or performance enhancing that matters; it's the physiological mechanism by which it enhances performance? Just how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?
None during training, amphetamines before at least some games (almost certainly day game after a night game, any time the player is feeling less than tip-top).
I have a feeling that's what the offseason was for.
Nobody is saying they work the same, they are saying that they both enhance performance more than you can get if you didn't take them.
It has to do with the assertions made that they are the same. Are they? It's not just about illegal--it's about why they are prohibited. That has to do with what they do.
Is that how steroids work?
How do you think transferring from one natural set of reflex protocol to another artificially created one would work? Do you thing the mind easily adapts to that? Have you ever seen tests administered to those under the influence as compared to those not?
Do you people know people who use amphs at high dosages over long periods of time?
do amphs create muscle tissue? Is that a difference in degree or kind?
The fatigue deficit that would accrue is a lot faster than six months. Yeah, I'm taking deficit, but don't worry I don't have to come down until around Xmas. Do you actually know people who take amphs like this, high-dosage regularly, who put off coming down for months?
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
Login to Join (0 members)
Page rendered in 1.1055 seconds, 57 querie(s) executed