I generally don't care about steroids (In a baseball morality context), but really? You know this how?

PEDar?

#51, it took me a second, but when I got it I laughed. Well done.

Kirby had affairs! Let's purge the HoF of all MLB players who cheated on their wives!

Through the heart of Kirby's career, there were few days when he wasn't the most broadly and deeply skilled baseball player on the field. I would agree that Fred Lynn is in that sort of a category. Not sure about Bernie.

And the idea that he is the worst of the worst is every bit as biased/over-stated as PW's fanboy stuff, don'tchathink? Has Wade Boggs alienated more or fewer people in his personal life? Dunno. Don't care.

Kirby had affairs! Let's purge the HoF of all MLB players who cheated on their wives!

Did you read post 16?

We're not talking affairs here, we're talking physical and sexual assault and death threats (including holding a gun to a woman's head).

This is Elijah Dukes level stuff.

None of these are "he smiled a lot and gave me good quotes." I do think that his character unfairly helped him get elected so quickly, but I don't think it was the largest contributor. And I do not think the writers deserve a character clause to hide behind/moralize with when it comes to Hall of Fame voting.

I don't think anything you say is wrong but I think you are understating the importance of his personality/character. I think people gave more credence to the bullet points you listed and gave him "post-eye injury credit" if you will BECAUSE he was a good guy.

Just to give an example of a fellow Hall of Famer and BBTF punching bag Jim Rice. Rice suffered an elbow injury early in 1987 when he was hit by a pitch that was generally perceived as being a big reason he aged as badly as he did. He had had an excellent 1986 season and then went over the cliff the following year. Rice of course was notoriously surly with, well with everyone and no one really seemed eager to give him credit for a more conventional aging curve.

I'm not saying they should have and the two situations are not perfectly aligned. I hope you see my point though. Puckett did get credit for a more conventional aging curve that Rice did not.

Or, take Rice out of it. Puckett's top ten list of comps on BBRef is a 9 non-Hall of Famers (some not yet eligible) and a Frisch-era VC selection (Cuyler). Mattingly and Oliva to name two are not getting any sort of additional credit or attention to their cases. Without his personality I don't think Puckett gets in anywhere near as easily, if at all.

Or, take Rice out of it. Puckett's top ten list of comps on BBRef is a 9 non-Hall of Famers (some not yet eligible) and a Frisch-era VC selection (Cuyler). Mattingly and Oliva to name two are not getting any sort of additional credit or attention to their cases. Without his personality I don't think Puckett gets in anywhere near as easily, if at all.

I still think you are minimizing the power of narative, but that's ok. And again I am not saying narative should drive Hall induction, just that it does.

BTW: Williams wins, since Puckett is dead he's not going to be able to defend himself in the ring.

I don't think Puckett is an egregious mistake like Jim Rice, but he's certainly on of the lower tier HOFers to get in by the BBWAA. Bernie's got just as good a case. But so do these guys:

Jimmy Wynn, Cesar Cedeno, Dale Murphy, Fred Lynn.

I think this undersells Jimmy Wynn, he's solidly above the others mentioned.

EDIT: And I say this as someone who'd vote for Murphy

This is Elijah Dukes level stuff

Well, except that Dukes's behavior has contributed greatly to his not being able to hold a pro-baseball job. That was completely not the case with Puckett.

I'm sympathetic to Westerberg's point here, and to Walt's more general thoughts. Abusive behavior is bad. Baseball is baseball. If a player distinguishes himself at the sport, it seems odd to deny them a baseball honor because they did bad things outside of baseball.

One of my current favorite ballplayers, Josh Hamilton, evidently did some very bad things in between bouts of being a great baseball player. I hope he's not fixing to do more bad things later in his life – God knows he's at risk, and conscious of that risk – but he's the 2010 American League MVP for fairly good baseball-related reasons. That award is his forever, and it's both an honor and a limited honor: it is about being good at baseball, no more.

that one time Bud Selig called my phone and yelled at me

Say what?

Kirby had affairs! Let's purge the HoF of all MLB players who cheated on their wives!

If a player distinguishes himself at the sport, it seems odd to deny them a baseball honor because they did bad things outside of baseball.

Okay, but you realize that the argument has become totally twisted now. The contention is that a) Puckett was elected in large part because he was a good guy, but b) he wasn't really a good guy. That is not the same as an argument that he should be out due to bad behavior. Right? It's an argument that he shouldn't have gotten extra credit, as it were.

I see your distinction, DA, but it's one that some people blur in practice.

I generally don't care about steroids (In a baseball morality context), but really? You know this how?

I'm close to someone who knew him well. So to be fair, being that it's second hand info from someone I trust but certainly wouldn't hold up in a court of law, I'll add "in my opinion". And I'm with you, I don't care either. This person also claims he was as big a degenerate as the bad stories would have you believe.

No, they don't have TV and internet in North Korea, so print's the place for your campaign to be

Wrong! chosuntv

I have no problem conceding that, post-baseball, Kirby did some terrible things.

But some of those allegations weren't "post-baseball" and it's hard to imagine that he changed from being a nice guy who wouldn't harm a soul to a bully threatening and beating women just because his part time job went away. There had to be a far darker Kirby than you want to admit hiding been that smile all along.

Strongly disagree (for all the reasons in my post above). He got in quicker and easier than he would have because of his "character" (really the joy with which he seemed to play, being liked by teammates, and having good PR outside the game), but even with "normal" character he would have made the Hall.

Really? He's not even in the top 100 among outfielders in WAR (49), and not even close to the top 200 most valuable position players.

And he still played almost as many games as McGwire, but McGwire was far more valuable than Kirby (71 WAR), and there are many on this board who don't think McGwire was HOF worthy even without the PEDs issue.

Kirby is the purest example of a ballplayer over-rated because of circumstances and a wonderful public image.

it's hard to imagine that he changed from being a nice guy who wouldn't harm a soul to a bully threatening and beating women just because his part time job went away

I agree with your whole post except this excerpt. It really isn't that hard to imagine that Kiby's condition could have eventually led to him being a threatening bully as he tries to hold onto his memories. But of course as your post pointed out the allegations stem from well before his final days as a player.

I think of Kirby in terms of that old F. Scott Fitzgerald quote, "show my a hero and I'll write you a tragedy." It's sad. I feel bad for Kirby's family. I feel bad for those he alienated at the end of his life. But I don't see how moral outrage is going to help anything.

I'm fine with moral outrage, but I like getting outraged at the right things.

Puckett was indeed accused of some unsavory behavior but he took the case to try and was acquitted.

Was that the alleged incident in the restaurant bathroom?

In addition to the bathroom, the SI article has claims by a woman claiming to be Puckett's mistress. While cheating with Puckett on his wife, or so she says, he also messed around with other women. And we believe this because...? She also claims he got pissy once on his way to visiting a sick kid, and that he peed in a parking lot. Puckett's ex-wife also says bad things about him. It's not a very nice picture, but where are the facts, the objective testimony we all crave around here? Where are the people without an ax to grind in the Puckett story, and what do they have to say? I've known attorneys who advise their clients in Massachusetts, where they hand out orders of protection the way strip joints pass out handbills, to get orders of protection as bargaining chips in divorce and custody proceedings. I've heard completely nutty things said about people (and said in complete earnestness), and in matters of the heart I'm awfully skeptical when it comes to what people have to say about each other.

edit: "There had to be a far darker Kirby than you want to admit hiding been that smile all along." If he did, that's not necessarily true. I've known pretty nice folks who suffered severe trauma (physical or emotional) and turned into pricks. I knew a woman who was bumbling sorta harmlessly through life, a pleasant woman, whose kids decided to buy into their dad's brainwashing and move in with him. She started drinking and turned in a nasty, vicious shrew. She's never been the same. I know a guy who was feeling a little down for the first time in his life and started taking an antidepressant. It had the opposite of the intended effect and he became paranoid, and did a few things he'd never done before, including attacking people and losing a job. The downward spiral continues to this day. I knew a guy whose drinking was in control, for twenty years, until his wife left him. He became a raging alcoholic, complete with prison time, job losses, bankruptcy. People change, drastically sometimes. I hate to say it, but maybe he was juicing, and went off the stuff when his career ended. That can change personality too.

I'm close to someone who knew him well. So to be fair, being that it's second hand info from someone I trust but certainly wouldn't hold up in a court of law, I'll add "in my opinion". And I'm with you, I don't care either. This person also claims he was as big a degenerate as the bad stories would have you believe.

Hey since I don't care about baseball steroid morality I would LOVE to have him outed as a Steroid user in the HoF. Then we could get all the gnashing out of the way. And I say this is a big twins fan who loved Kirby (the player).

Really? He's not even in the top 100 among outfielders in WAR (49), and not even close to the top 200 most valuable position players.

And he still played almost as many games as McGwire, but McGwire was far more valuable than Kirby (71 WAR), and there are many on this board who don't think McGwire was HOF worthy even without the PEDs issue.

Oh great a WAR argument, because that really does determine everything. Seriously I am NOT saying he deserved to sail in, but the narrative of his career arc says he WAS going to sail in. Talk about WAR all you like, but he was going in, it was just easier because of PR.

I know a guy who was feeling a little down for the first time in his life and started taking an antidepressant. It had the opposite of the intended effect and he became paranoid

For some reason this got me thinking. I have worked for a pharmaceutical company on their clinical trials. With a lot of drugs there are a small percentage of people that react opposite to the targeted outcome. Now I know steroids are different but I got a laugh at thinking about Clemens turning to steroids only to look like Juan Cruz.