47 - ray, or anyone who cares to answer; correcting for salary trends, how much above Piazza, I-Rod, and Kendall is he?

47 - ray, or anyone who cares to answer; correcting for salary trends, how much above Piazza, I-Rod, and Kendall is he?

I was going to ask something similar. Post #37 is informative but salary inflation has made the gap between Mauer's and some of the past contracts a little exaggerated. I think Ray is right that it is an overpay, but I also still think that if he were a FA this offseason he would get 5/$110m or 6/$125 from someone.

I was going to ask something similar. Post #37 is informative but salary inflation has made the gap between Mauer's and some of the past contracts a little exaggerated.

I'm not sure this is that much of an issue. Although Molina's contract is instructive, as it was just signed in March. He was heading into his age-29 season and coming off a 124 OPS+, which was a career high but his defensive reputation (and performance according to dWAR) has always been stellar. Molina is seen as, and has been, one of the best catchers in the game.

John Henry's yacht was parked by the Boston Harbor Hotel this weekend. It's still really big and shiny. He still owns Liverpool. His hedge funds aren't killing him just yet.

I'm with Jonah Keri. It is a good idea. It is an overpay, but you don't get awards for win/$.

If someone said I’ll trade you Joe Mauer, James Loney, another piece and two top #100 prospects for Carl Crawford, Josh Beckett, and Adrian Gonzalez…you’d take it wouldn’t you?

I understand the knee-jerk reaction is to say "Oh hell no!" but i don't want my FO to be knee-jerk fanboys. The perfectly priced FA superstar isn't going to walk through the door anytime soon. And the worst thing that can happen is 'oops. We got Joe Mauer'.

Mauer was hurt last year which affected his ability to catch. This season he's healthy but isn't catching as often for a couple reasons. The Twins aren't winning so there's no reason to ask Mauer to catch more often. Ryan Doumit has been a good option as a backup catcher. Also, they're easing Morneau back in from missing most of two seasons and using Mauer as the backup 1B.

The Twins seem to recognize that Mauer only has so many games to catch over the remainder of the contract and they're not going to push him when they aren't competitive.

I'd say about $3M of the annual value of the contract is pure marketing. Mauer is the face of the team. He sells tickets and jerseys, especially to women.

Two questions about the waiver rules
1. If a player has a no-trade clause or a 10x5, does that apply to waiver claims as well? I thought about this with Beckett, that if he refused the trade, that the Sox could have just let him go.
2. What precautions are in place to prevent a team from letting a player go on waivers and then making a seemingly-independent deal with the claiming team?

Two questions about the waiver rules

1. Yes, the clause (or 10/5 rights) apply. The contract can't be assigned without their permission.

How many 30 year old catchers with 142 million owed are great things?

One

Yea, my wife barely knows the Twins exist... but she likes Mauer. She also likes Braun though. I think its just guys with lots of vowels next to each other.

Yea, my wife barely knows the Twins exist... but she likes Mauer. She also likes Braun though. I think its just guys with lots of vowels next to each other.

Yeah, sure, it's the vowels. She's always just thinking of you. (Wink, wink!)

This season he's healthy but isn't catching as often for a couple reasons. The Twins aren't winning so there's no reason to ask Mauer to catch more often.

Have the Twins said that this is why he hasn't caught much? It would be the first time in history a catcher was used this way, to my knowledge.

It seems to me that you simply can't bring yourself to admit that the contract is a bad one and that Mauer is already no longer a full-time catcher.

Did the Twins consider themselves out of it on April 18th? Because Mauer had only started 6 of 11 games at catcher to that point.

The Twins were 8 games out of the division on July 3rd, and yet Mauer had started just 33 of the 80 games at catcher. Perhaps they would have been closer had he started more games?

What's the reason for starting Drew Butera? He's caught in 33 games, starting 25 of them (232 total innings). He has a .567 OPS, .497 career.

It's not like Mauer was catching regularly until the Twins gave up on the season. Right from opening day he wasn't catching regularly.

If your $23 million catcher has to be used this way, where you're basically gambling in April and May that the season is lost and therefore there's no reason to start him regularly, he's not worth $23 million.

Yeah, sure, it's the vowels. She's always just thinking of you. (Wink, wink!)

Crap, now you are reminding me she likes Reddick and Travis Buck too... Im going to have to expand my theory to include players with lots of vowels and Oakland outfielders that look like Lorenzo Lamas.

I'm with Jonah Keri. It is a good idea. It is an overpay, but you don't get awards for win/$.

If someone said I’ll trade you Joe Mauer, James Loney, another piece and two top #100 prospects for Carl Crawford, Josh Beckett, and Adrian Gonzalez…you’d take it wouldn’t you?

Yes, I agree. Acquiring Mauer would be a suitable second step to the plan, and would greatly reassure me as to the direction of the org.

That being said, of course, as noted many times in this thread and desperately ignored by karlmagnus, Mauer's future has precisely ####### to do with whether or not it would be a good idea for the Red Sox or Mets or whoever to acquire him.

If your $23 million catcher has to be used this way, where you're basically gambling in April and May that the season is lost and therefore there's no reason to start him regularly, he's not worth $23 million.

I think the argument here is not that he has to be used that way, but that he can be used that way.

The Twins are basically rotating 3 guys in the 1B, DH, and C positions. Does it really matter what defensive combination Mauer, Morneau, and Doumit are playing? Why not give each guy some time off from playing in the field, especially when you consider that all three have injury histories?

Like Ripken with the Orioles, Gwynn with the Padres, Yount with the Brewers, Brett with the Royals, Jeter with the Yankees, Chapel with the Tigers, Walker with the Expos (d'oh)...Some things just should not be messed with.

Who is Chapel? Charlie Gehringer? Also, Barry Larkin is the platonic ideal of this stereotype as well.

If someone said I’ll trade you Joe Mauer, James Loney, another piece and two top #100 prospects for Carl Crawford, Josh Beckett, and Adrian Gonzalez…you’d take it wouldn’t you?

You mean we get to keep Punto? ;-)

You could take out Mauer's name and add Yuniesky Betancourt, and you'd still make that deal, if the deal couldn't be made otherwise. That doesn't mean acquiring Betancourt in a waiver claim is a good idea.

Joe Mauer should no longer be considered a catcher. If Mauer is not a catcher, he is not a unique talent. If he is not a catcher, he is likely not worth the contract he has. Boston just unloaded a bunch of players who likely would not be worth their contracts; I see no reason to go down that path again for someone who is not a unique talent.

Who is Chapel?

Billy Chapel was Kevin Costner's character in "For Love of the Game". A career long pitcher for the Tigers.

Who is Chapel? Charlie Gehringer? Also, Barry Larkin is the platonic ideal of this stereotype as well.

Billy Chapel. Tossed a perfecto at Yankee Stadium when he was washed up. Dated some weird scientology chick.

i thought mauer was still working his way back into catching because of nagging this and that.

catchers have awful seasons and later it's discovered that they were dealing with an injury the whole time. wouldn't surprise me to learn that mccann's season has been sabotaged by some owie of his hands or shoulder or somewhat

mauer should catch 115 odd games and dh another 30 and the twins should be fine with that.

I think the argument here is not that he has to be used that way, but that he can be used that way.

Well, sure. Troy Tulowitzky "could" be used as a 1B/DH also. But if you do that, you're slicing off a chunk of his value.

The Twins are basically rotating 3 guys in the 1B, DH, and C positions. Does it really matter what defensive combination Mauer, Morneau, and Doumit are playing?

First, they're rotating 4 guys, not 3. Drew Butera of the .500 career OPS has the equivalent of 26 full nine-inning games at catcher.

Second, this is fundamental player evaluation. Yes, it does "really matter" if Mauer isn't catching. Because he's not as valuable at other positions. They have used Drew Butera at catcher for 232 innings. And Mauer's bat is not as special at first base. And Doumit isn't worth very much as a DH.

catchers have awful seasons and later it's discovered that they were dealing with an injury the whole time. wouldn't surprise me to learn that mccann's season has been sabotaged by some owie of his hands or shoulder or somewhat

I think he has acknowledged that he has some shoulder injury.

In April and May the Twins were still working Justin Morneau into the lineup which meant they were playing Mauer a lot at 1B and DH. Drew Butera wasn't on the roster to start the season. By June it was obvious they weren't a contender because their pitching was terrible, which you should be able to tell since after their best stretch of baseball they were 8 games out in July.

Terry Ryan and Ron Gardenhire have both said there's no reason to wear out Mauer this year. I'm not saying he would have caught 30 more games but 10-15 is reasonable.

What's the reason for starting Drew Butera?

None of us here in MN can figure that one out. Probably the same reason they really liked Denny Hocking.

Joe Mauer should no longer be considered a catcher.

He's good at playing the defensive position of catcher. The Twins have made the judgment that it's best for their club in the future to only use him as a part-time catcher, but I think whether Mauer should be considered a catcher is still a reasonably open question.

I think Ray's right that we can't assume Mauer could play 120-130 games at catcher and be as productive as he is now. He's a guy who can rotate to DH and 1B like the Twins have this year, or you can play him only at catcher and likely endure worse health and/or batting performance.

If Mauer is not a catcher, he is not a unique talent

Second in the league in OBP isn't unique? 23mill unique? no. But let's not dismiss him out of hand. That's why deals are worked out.

It would be the first time in history a catcher was used this way, to my knowledge.

Nobody has ever saved a catcher's legs by playing him at other positions before? I know Bill Freehan was used this way, I'm sure there are others. There are plenty of ballplayers who get days off to keep them fresh for a playoff run.

mauer should catch 115 odd games and dh another 30 and the twins should be fine with that.

I think that's the plan but it assumes a playoff run. If the Twins make the playoffs Mauer catches 115 games including the postseason.

I think Ray's right that we can't assume Mauer could play 120-130 games at catcher and be as productive as he is now.

To be clear, I wouldn't bet on Mauer being worth the contract. The risk when he signed was whether his body could withstand 120 games a year behind the plate through his early 30s, and the last two seasons suggest that it can't.

I'm just saying, we don't know that yet. Mauer is still a very good defensive catcher - unlike Victor Martinez, say - and so it's possible that 2011's injuries were just a fluke and next season the Twins (or another club) could sit him behind the plate four or five days a week and get a new string of 5-6 WAR seasons.

Never seen Drew Butera play but it sounds like the Twins got Jeff Mathis disease, where they assume a crappy hitting catcher must play godly defense and is worth keeping in the lineup game after game.

Second in the league in OBP isn't unique?

by definition, no.

dl

my cutoff for a catcher being deemed the primary is 70 percent and that equates to right around 115 games of the regular season.

This is a baseball site, right? I have a baseball question:

What did Joe Mauer do differently in 2009 that allowed him to hit 28 home runs?

Second in the league in OBP isn't unique?


by definition, no.

Well if we're playing that game, he is. How many others are second place?

Second in the league in OBP isn't unique?

Citing OBP without SLG is not as problematic as citing BA, but it's not very helpful, either.

He has a .425 SLG, which is decidedly not unique. His 130 OPS+ is very good, but only 26th in the AL. The OBP will push him higher than that, but not that much higher. His EqA is .294. Very good. Not elite.

So, no, his hitting has not been unique.

I don't buy the Mauer should be a Twin forever weak-minded thinking. If he is constantly hurt and the team sucks for years, he will end up being hated there. Fans always turn on the biggest underperformers when teams fail, no matter where they went to high school, especially if they were viewed as HOF bound. Mauer and the Twins both should know they are at great risk here, he has the opportunity to go to a team that could win now, he might not get that ever again.

If the Twins offer to kick in $3m per year that should lock the deal down.

Edit: Cokes to Ray though, he was the only voice of reason on the other thread. I just think he underestimates the value of being able to play Mauer at multiple positions, as well as the possibility he will be able to play catcher often, and hit at a high level. I don't think the Sox are taking a big risk here, Mauer is far more valuable, useful, and talented than Crawford, and the cost isn't much more. Marginal wins to the Sox are worth the risk, if they get 6 WAR a year from one roster spot that's worth paying up for. At $20m per year they should roll the dice for sure.

What did Joe Mauer do differently in 2009 that allowed him to hit 28 home runs?

If I'm remembering correctly, Mauer had a very high percentage of "just barely" homers. So part of it was a touch of luck. I do wonder, also, if Mauer's recurring hip injuries have sapped his power a bit. When I watched him in 2009, Mauer looked like the same line drive hitter he's always been.

Besides, we have a catcher who can hit home runs now (as of last night), so I think we're all set there.

Mauer to first, and Ike to an OF corner?

dl

my cutoff for a catcher being deemed the primary is 70 percent and that equates to right around 115 games of the regular season.

Yes; I think anything less than 115 and it's not reasonable to call him a regular catcher. You'd like to see him at 120-125 minimum, but if it's 115 and he's playing other positions and they're saving his legs, fine. But 62 with a month left? No.

What did Joe Mauer do differently in 2009 that allowed him to hit 28 home runs?

Have his career year.

It was a career year, just as Boggs hit 24 HR one year, without "1987" as the explanation. Maybe Brady Anderson is a better example than Boggs. But players will repeat their career averages instead of their career years, and Mauer is no exception. He's a 135 OPS+ hitter, not a 170 OPS+ hitter.

davo

i noticed at the time but joe was clearly locked in upon his return in may and cranked any pitch on the inner half out of the park. i figured that was a fluke since he immediately became the usual joe mauer of mostly doubles and a homer every so often and then he did it again in august with 8 homers.

so he hit 19 homers across two months.

just a swag but i figure he felt really healthy, was feeling good, made an adjustment and everything clicked

when he got hurt again in 2010 and was struggling he either went back to the old way for comfort or didn't think he could keep up the new approach.

this is all from memory but joe mauer in may 2009 was looking to hit homers. i noticed it at the time because he crushed the brewers that month. next year he was feeling for the ball again and slicing it to left center

Well, sure. Troy Tulowitzky "could" be used as a 1B/DH also.

I think you are missing the point. If the Rockies were playing in the AL, and their primary DH could also play shortstop, then they certainly could play Tulo at DH to rest him.

But if you do that, you're slicing off a chunk of his value.

While the Twins may be slicing off a chunk of Mauer's by having him DH, aren't they getting more value out of Doumit by playing him at catcher?

Second, this is fundamental player evaluation. Yes, it does "really matter" if Mauer isn't catching. Because he's not as valuable at other positions. They have used Drew Butera at catcher for 232 innings. And Mauer's bat is not as special at first base. And Doumit isn't worth very much as a DH.

The goal for the Twins isn't to maximize Joe Mauer's value. If you want to argue that the Twins should have a different DH than Doumit, I'd listen to that argument. But I see no reason why the Twins should play Mauer full time at catcher when they have a DH who can also catch.

First, they're rotating 4 guys, not 3. Drew Butera of the .500 career OPS has the equivalent of 26 full nine-inning games at catcher.

10 of Butera's starts happened in a 25 game window in May, when Morneau missed a couple of weeks. As to why they play Butera, DL and Tripon have nailed it - no one knows, but the Twins seem to love his defense.

What did Joe Mauer do differently in 2009 that allowed him to hit 28 home runs?

Look at the hit chart. He found a spot in the Metrodome that he could reach hitting the ball the other way. Then they moved to Target Field and that same power alley is 15-20 feet further away. Incidentally, that power alley is right off (or over) the Green Monster. He only has one other "zone" where he can pull a ball out of the park to RF and pitchers pretty much don't throw it there.

The Twins have a DH who can also catch (instead of a pure DH like Thome) partly because they're trying to rest Mauer so it's kind of a catch 22.

If he is constantly hurt and the team sucks for years, he will end up being hated there

That is a mindset that fans need to get away from. There's one thing being crippled, and it's not these fat-cats mansion bills. It's peoples enjoyment of baseball,People that see a guy like JD Drew strike-out and go "How much are 'we' paying him??? AUGGHHHH"

I didn't hate Crawford because he failed, I hated him because he had a baseball IQ of 12.

What did Mauer do to hit 28? PEDs, of course.

Ray, even tho Molina's hitting well this year, his 124 OPS+ brought his career OPS to 88. Excellent defender, yes, not so excellent comp. Piazza's little D and large bat brought a bigger contract.

Can't really hate Crawford for hating Boston, but he probably shouldn't have signed there if he thought he'd hate it. The Crawford signing was, and is, a reason to hate...Theo Epstein? No way! But but but Duquette was the bad guy, he signed that Ramirez guy and...oh.

Wonder Boy my ass?

When Mauer's deal was signed, the basic justification was that he would produce as one of the best catchers in the league for several years -- primarily at catcher -- and then gradually get more time at other positions on the back end. The idea was to get vintage Mauer for a long while, mainly hitting his career averages but every now and again getting a spike. There were even dreams of him retaining the power surge he saw in 2009.

I don't recall anyone saying at the time, "Well, the plan is to play him 75 games at catcher in year 2 if his team is out of it, to save his legs."

What has happened is that the first year was a lost year between injuries and an off year in hitting, and the second year has seen him return to form as a hitter but catching an expected 75 games. The deal has started off badly. It's not Carl Crawford bad, but it's been bad. At a minimum it's very concerning.

And yet the response here is, "What's the big deal? They've been rotating him around because they have other good players and they're dealing with injuries to other players and they're saving his legs because the team is out of contention even though they started right from April 1st playing him part time as a catcher."

People are up in the clouds with this.

Ive not followed the justifications, but "what's the big deal about rotating him?" seems defensible. His absence behind the plate isn't costing the team a chance at the postseason and it may well extend his useful life. I don't know that it's a hell of a lot different from shutting someone down to avoid further injury risk when a team is out of the playoffs. the player could remain in the lineup, and he wasn't offered acontract to be on the DL, but what's the problem with forward planning?

People are up in the clouds with this.

So you think the Twins should play Mauer 130 games a year at catcher just to justify the contract? Even if there is no benefit to the team to do so?

So you think the Twins should play Mauer 130 games a year at catcher just to justify the contract? Even if there is no benefit to the team to do so?

But in general there is a benefit for the team to do so: fewer games with a backup catcher in the lineup.

When the deal was signed, many people thought it'd be an albatross in the long run given Mauer's injury history. But they were also lauding the deal, mainly because "yay Twinkies for finally keeping one of their own!"

Having Doumit around does keep the Twins in a nice spot--he and Mauer can trade off in order to keep Mauer from breaking down. But ideally you have better bats at 1B and DH--because Mauer has to jump around, the Twins will find it harder to fit in an everyday 1B-or-DH-worthy bat.

EDIT: This discussion would be a lot different if Doumit wasn't having an excellent year.