You talk about me "rule lawyering" but you don't seem to understand that all your prattling on about how "A UNIFORM MUST BE WORN PROPERLY" is just spitting in the wind. Rules are important to wearing your uniform properly. The magical "proper way to wear one's uniform" doesn't arrive from heaven, edged in gilt. It's something that is defined by the rules to wearing your uniform determined by the governing body.

If you go into the army and you want to know how to properly wear your uniform what do you do? Pray to the gods of army uniforms? Or do you read the regulations (or ask command) regarding how to properly wear your uniform. Period. What you're doing about this nebulous "this is how it is because this is how it is even though it isn't how it is" is lawyering of its own sort. Except you don't have a leg to stand on except this stodgy concept that "most people (but not all) have done it this way throughout baseball history." I certainly don't blame those who operate from a different cultural background and don't care what a bunch of people who wouldn't have let them play the game might have possibly thought if we read their mind. I love this idea that they're supposed to suss out with reverance something that has never even been defined in the first place, such as "the unwritten rules of cap wearing"

I honestly feel like Jennifer Aniston in the "pieces of flair" discussion right now.

(1) Why is "No Problem" not an acceptable alternate to "You're Welcome"?

I went through most of the first 33 years of my life saying "no problem" and never had anyone take issue with it. However, a few months ago I used it in response to an email from a client and an older colleague (~50 I would guess) who was cc'd sent me the following response:

May I share with you a client-facing idea?

Whenever you visit a Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton hotel, you will never hear the phrase, "no problem." Never. Instead, their staff will say, "my pleasure," "with pleasure," "absolutely.". They always use positive words. They are very specifically trained to avoid the phrase, "no problem."

If you ever hear a staff member of either of those two chains using the term, "no problem," please let me know. I will pay you $5, and you have zero downside.

So, in the future, try to avoid using a very negative phrase, "no problem."

I thought this was ridiculous, as did other colleagues who I showed it to. But I can't say it hasn't caused me to pause and think about my use of the phrase in client settings.

I honestly feel like Jennifer Aniston in the "pieces of flair" discussion right now.

And the fact that you don't get that Jennifer Aniston was showing lack of respect is part of the problem. She wasn't disrespecting the uniform(and to be fair, that company didn't deserve respect because of the silliness of the rule and other reasons) but she was showing it lack of respect. Mind you in that particular case it was a very minor lack and it takes a really uptight tight ass to make a problem with it.

The point is that the Jennifer Aniston didn't like the company she was working for, it showed(to her boss) in her actions. And her actions were a lot more minor level of lack of respect as say cutting the sleeves off of a uniform or wearing a hat backwards(note: again I don't have a problem with the hat wearing to the side, especially for a pitcher, as there could be a practical, arguable reason for him to do it)

As to the stodgy concept? I really hope you are pulling my leg, nobody could be as dumb as you are pretending to be right now. I understand you not really getting the lack of respect angle, if it's not written in the rules(I don't agree, and think that you might need to talk to someone to see if you have a mild form of autism, but I can understand your viewpoint on that) but to not know how a hat is supposed to be worn unless it's written down, is just ignorance. Pure and simple.

I can't tell you how many times I dropped a fly ball because the sun got in my ear.

If he has never been told in his life, that the proper way to wear a hat is with the bill facing front, then I and all others should apologize.

Maybe he has been told, but he disagrees.

cardsafanboy, I disagree with everything you are saying. Well, except for the part where you get to tell everyone how to act. I wish I could tell people how to act during the national anthem - they just stand at attention like trained dogs staring at their master's hand waiting for the next command. This is the USA! When we are told to do something, we think of a creative way to tell them to shove it. Don't blindly do what your told, take off your pants and run across the field - that's more patriotic in my eyes than standing dumb with your hand on heart like commies to Stalin. Freedom of expression, the American way!

Respect the uniform? No, respect Rodney's right to act as an individual. Even if it does make him look like a drunk Charlie Callas.

As I read through the thread, I was hoping that someone would distinguish between "disrespect" vs. "lack of respect" and I think CFB did a good job at it. I'm probably in category 4a

4a. A reasonable person could interpret Rodney's actions as showing a lack of respect. Not wearing the uniform as it's properly intended shows a lack of caring enough to do the little things that shows you care. It is not a sign of disrespect.

A uniform is "us". Altering the uniform makes it less about "us" and more about "me". From the examples listed above, I'd probably put the spectrum as: Brim bending (almost entirely practical), wearing your socks all the way (oldschool, but hard to separate out the fact that it will get you noticed), Posada's pine tar (has some practical uses but needlessly makes the uniform less uniform-y), and at the far end is Rodney's tilted hat. A hat is meant to be worn straight ahead, and I'm sorry, but any argument to that contrary feels disingenous. Now, I'm absolutely willing to concede that for the younger generation, tilted is an acceptable style. BUT, that style was born from intentionally doing it "wrong". It was meant to be different from the norm. Personalizing something. Perhaps even attention seeking.

Rodney stands out on the baseball field. Maybe his antics are sincere, maybe he's indifferent to the attention, or maybe he likes the attention. I don't know and I don't care. I think a player has a right to self promote, but it's a delicate balance and sometimes it goes too far. An NFL player otherwise hidden under a helmet should have a chance to slightly distinguish themselves. NBA players paying fines so they can wear (and ultimately sell more shoes) might be a bit more of a stretch.

I don't think Rodney thought it all out and said "I'm going to disrespect the uniform". I just think the issue of respect never crossed his mine. I won't even guess whether he was thinking "I want to get noticed". My gut says he does, but it may be even more subconscious than that.

And the fact that you don't get that Jennifer Aniston was showing lack of respect is part of the problem. She wasn't disrespecting the uniform(and to be fair, that company didn't deserve respect because of the silliness of the rule and other reasons) but she was showing it lack of respect. Mind you in that particular case it was a very minor lack and it takes a really uptight tight ass to make a problem with it.

No, the point of the scene is that being passive aggressive about something you're going to enforce as a rule is a pathetic act. That goes double when you're someone with no say in the matter.

As to the autism thing--hey you got me! I'm all autism all the time--not the guy getting microscopic about inferential ideas about what is proper behavior and what isn't based on: nothing tangible whatsoever. I've had a number of jobs with uniform policies. If something's not in the policy, why do it? I don't like tucking in my shirt if I don't have to. If a job wanted me to tuck in my shirt they'd have it in the policy. If it's not in the policy and my boss asks me to tuck in my shirt, I'm not going to be like, "Well it's not in the policy so I don't have to do it." I'll tuck in my damn shirt. If they sit around hoping I get some sort of subliminal hint that "SHIRTS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TUCKED IN BECAUSE IT'S PROPER" then they can eff off and I'll find another job. You know how I can tell that Rodney hasn't been asked to wear his hat differently? Because he hasn't turned it straight and he still has the job with the hat-wearing thing going on.

Likewise, long ago, when I was playing baseball at the organized level, no one gave a thought to how hats were worn. If someone wore his hat like Rodney did, maybe the coach would say something maybe he wouldn't. If he did, the "offender" would probably turn his hat straight, maybe he wouldn't. It really didn't come up because no one gave much thought to ridiculously stupid bull**** like that.

Might be the autism talking though!!!

I really am surprised that the issue of race hasn't come up more. I always thought the hat sideways was an urban thing and thus the reason that boy bands in the 90s were trying to emulate it. I am surprised to hear that people think it makes someone like Rodney, a 36-year-old African American, look like a member of a boy band, who were pretty much exclusively white teens. I'm also a little surprised to hear people so eager to clarify that, although they think Rodney has a right to wear his hat that way, they think he looks like an idiot doing so. Maybe it's just not something you're used to or maybe it's just something that our society has deemed as an acceptable target of ridicule?

Yes, that's something largely at play here. Someone mentioned a line from the Wire cum Richard Price's Clockers that pointed out that very thing--a borderline racist police officer making fun of black youths for wearing their hats sideways because it wasn't "proper"

I actually agree with [104] about Jenifer Aniston's character and her job.

Of course, I also think that place is kind of stupid, but employers get to be stupid like that. And maybe employees maybe shouldn't take stupid jobs.

[108] I'd rather a player do the big things that show he cares.

I really am surprised that the issue of race hasn't come up more. I always thought the hat sideways was an urban thing and thus the reason that boy bands in the 90s were trying to emulate it. I am surprised to hear that people think it makes someone like Rodney, a 36-year-old African American, look like a member of a boy band, who were pretty much exclusively white teens. I'm also a little surprised to hear people so eager to clarify that, although they think Rodney has a right to wear his hat that way, they think he looks like an idiot doing so. Maybe it's just not something you're used to or maybe it's just something that our society has deemed as an acceptable target of ridicule?

Well, if you want to bring up the urban look, here's the baddest motherfucker of them all.

Respect the uniform? No, respect Rodney's right to act as an individual. Even if it does make him look like a drunk Charlie Callas.

as an old man and a child of the sixties, this to me is the best line in the thread.

This thread is the very first time I have heard of an issue with "no problem" #### the heck?

I am surprised to hear that people think it makes someone like Rodney, a 36-year-old African American, look like a member of a boy band, who were pretty much exclusively white teens.

Darren, Torii Hunter just called to let you know that Rodney is from the Dominican Republic.

If the whole team wore their hats at at a 60 degree angle then it would still be proper uniform, right?

These stories remind me of the Red Sox prospect (Abe Alvarez I think) who some media member trashed for being disrespectful because he wore his hat at an angle. What the guy didn't bother to learn before opening his mouth was that Alvarez was blind in one eye and worse his hat like that to help his vision.

Whenever you visit a Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton hotel, you will never hear the phrase, "no problem." Never. Instead, their staff will say, "my pleasure," "with pleasure," "absolutely.". They always use positive words. They are very specifically trained to avoid the phrase, "no problem."

So, in the future, try to avoid using a very negative phrase, "no problem."

Why do I suspect that the guy who wrote this would still object to the very positive phrase "it's all good"?

A reasonable person could interpret Rodney's actions as showing a lack of respect.

I thought it was Rodney who never got any respect.

Slapping the Nike swoosh and the adidas logo on formerly pristine uniform space is far more "disrespectful" of the uniform than anything Rodney's even thought of doing.

I'm not betting against Rodney's imagination.

By the way, this thread should have ended after #1.

119 - it was Abe Alvarez; nice pull
My employer sent out an all-staff e-mail about "no problem" a few days ago. I use it occasionally, but began curbing that use sometime back.

We open the door for women and the elderly as a sign of respect. There is no rules saying we have to, there is no law or anyone forcing us to do this, it's just something we do as a sign of respect and common courtesy. Sure there are people who don't do that, and it doesn't mean they disrespect the group, but their actions do carry some weight when other people see it.

I hold the door for anyone in range, regardless of age and gender. So do a lot of people. If I thought about it every time, I'd probably arrive at the utilitarian value of holding it for the elderly, and for the rest as an acknowledgement of our common humanity and because the world is a difficult place, so that being aware of each other is better than not. Fwiw, I usually don't stand on the subway for the able-bodied, regardless of sex.

Note: I should have used the word lack of respect instead of disrespectful. Disrespectful implies an active action of showing lack of respect. I.E. as an atheist, if I wanted to be a dick, I would go into a church and turn all their crosses upside down, that is disrespectful and it's a moral failing.

That doesn't follow at all, that it's a 'moral failing'. It could well be pointed political action. It could, for example, be an assertion that the Catholic Church, in shielding molestors, has turned the precepts of the church upside down.

I honestly feel like Jennifer Aniston in the "pieces of flair" discussion right now.

I once got a ride home from a co-worker I didn't know at all well. I was thinking of other things and was apparently slow on the draw, and he asked me to put on my seat belt within one second of our getting into his car. A few days later he stopped by my office to tell me he was troubled by the drive. I had no idea what he was talking about so I raised an eyebrow and waited. He continued, "Jack, I just got the feeling you didn't want to put on your seat belt".

Where do people come up with this stuff?

cardsafanboy, I disagree with everything you are saying. Well, except for the part where you get to tell everyone how to act. I wish I could tell people how to act during the national anthem - they just stand at attention like trained dogs staring at their master's hand waiting for the next command. This is the USA! When we are told to do something, we think of a creative way to tell them to shove it.

Would this were so. It isn't. Americans would make Good Germans.

Doesn't "my bad" imply a lot more casual feeling than "I was wrong and I'm sorry"? When I hear it, I hear "Yup, I messed up, and that's the end of that." There are plenty of occasions where this is completely appropriate, but I do feel like that more serious occasions call for a different sort of apology.

126...Don't you mean...Nazis? Who would follow...HITLER?

Thread's over!

FWIW, I agree with cfb.

I really am surprised, when people have a problem with "my bad" rather than "I was wrong and I'm sorry", that the issue of race doesn't come up more.

I really am surprised, when people have a problem with "my bad" rather than "I was wrong and I'm sorry", that the issue of race doesn't come up more.

What does race have to do with either of those? I've heard "my bad" (and seen it written here) countless times by whites, or are you saying that it's a white expression only?

There may be a generational split between those two expressions, but I've never thought about any racial split. And most of the time I've heard "my bad" it was for a relatively minor offense. (coke to Darren for that point)

What does race have to do with either of those? I've heard "my bad" (and seen it written here) countless times by whites, or are you saying that it's a white expression only?

I think it originated as black slang - but now everyone uses it.

Apparently "my bad" originated with Manute Bol sometime in the 80's when he was apologizing for making a bad pass. It then seems to have spread to his Warriors teammates and the rest of the NBA, then to the playgrounds, and took off into the mainstream after the movie Clueless used it in 1995. Of course all this is from the first page of googling, not from any great research effort.

"My bad" (regardless of the color of its inventors) seems like one of those very many small moves towards the limiting of language Orwell describes in 1984, to fewer and fewer words, such that complex thought eventually becomes doubleplusungood. The subtlety of experience gets lost. Things are no longer, and we no longer distinguish between, "my error", "my mistake", "my stupidity", "my aberration, blooper, blunder, boo-boo, bungle, confusion, delusion, erratum, false move, false step, fault, faux pas, flub, fluff, gaffe, illusion, inaccuracy, inadvertence, lapse, misapplication, misapprehension, miscalculation, misconception, misinterpretation, misjudgment, misprint, misstatement, misstep, muddle, neglect, omission, overestimation, oversight, slight, slip, slip of tongue, slipup, snafu, solecism, trip, typographical error, my underestimation..."

It's all, just, "my bad". It's not the phrase itself, but the substitution of it for the full range of experience that bothers me. A little.

like has been stated any number of times before, when you perform you can wear your uniform inside out and suck on a tootsie pop during interviews and the fans are enthralled. if you stink you are a weirdo

it takes a lot to push a good player into weirdo category or a bad player into cool territory

Really, Jack? I've nearly always heard "my bad" used to mean "my error/mistake/stupidity/bad pass", as opposed to "my thoughtlessness/rudeness/etc." And the people who use in the second sense are likely to be the sort of people who earn a living ghostwriting for bureaucrats who like to say "mistakes were made".

It was a street thing first, at least once past its very earliest usage, and then found its way into general usage.

Just like the jaunty angle hat.

I really am surprised that the issue of race hasn't come up more. I always thought the hat sideways was an urban thing and thus the reason that boy bands in the 90s were trying to emulate it. I am surprised to hear that people think it makes someone like Rodney, a 36-year-old African American, look like a member of a boy band, who were pretty much exclusively white teens. I'm also a little surprised to hear people so eager to clarify that, although they think Rodney has a right to wear his hat that way, they think he looks like an idiot doing so. Maybe it's just not something you're used to or maybe it's just something that our society has deemed as an acceptable target of ridicule?

I don't quite understand your point. Even if it is something that originated among blacks, are we not allowed to think that certain styles that originated or are popular among blacks look stupid or idiotic?

You guys are all idiots! Clearly this is just Rodney's tribute to his idol, the late Mike Cameron.

Really, Jack? I've nearly always heard "my bad" used to mean "my error/mistake/stupidity/bad pass",...

Well, I won't argue our experiences don't differ, but even if it's just those four, the compacting and limiting of language is to be mourned, however briefly.

...as opposed to "my thoughtlessness/rudeness/etc." And the people who use in the second sense are likely to be the sort of people who earn a living ghostwriting for bureaucrats who like to say "mistakes were made".

I have heard it routinely substituted for 'my thoughtlessness'. No recollection of whether the same is true for rudeness. Ah, 'mistakes were made'. I've always liked the antidote Orwell describes at the close of "Politics and the English Language":

I have not here been considering the literary use of language, but merely language as an instrument for expressing and not for concealing or preventing thought. Stuart Chase and others have come near to claiming that all abstract words are meaningless, and have used this as a pretext for advocating a kind of political quietism. Since you don't know what Fascism is, how can you struggle against Fascism? One need not swallow such absurdities as this, but one ought to recognize that the present political chaos is connected with the decay of language, and that one can probably bring about some improvement by starting at the verbal end. If you simplify your English, you are freed from the worst follies of orthodoxy. You cannot speak any of the necessary dialects, and when you make a stupid remark its stupidity will be obvious, even to yourself. Political language -- and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists -- is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. One cannot change this all in a moment, but one can at least change one's own habits, and from time to time one can even, if one jeers loudly enough, send some worn-out and useless phrase -- some jackboot, Achilles' heel, hotbed, melting pot, acid test, veritable inferno, or other lump of verbal refuse -- into the dustbin, where it belongs.

135 - It was used for both of those definitions when I was a kid (late 80s).
Not sure if I trust my memory here as to this specific example, but I believe that this was one of a few expressions I heard/used in my neighborhood (poor to lower middle class, mostly black) but not in my school (middle class, mostly white) - things I'd uttered nonthinkingly and suddenly realize that other kids at my school didn't. (Another was "my druthers", but that had a different lineage.)
[edit: i don't mean to overstate this - it's not like people commented on it or anything or were necessarily unfamiliar with these phrases]

Really, Jack? I've nearly always heard "my bad" used to mean "my error/mistake/stupidity/bad pass",...

Well, I won't argue our experiences don't differ, but even if it's just those four, the compacting and limiting of language is to be mourned, however briefly.

I certainly won't argue that point, but between you and I, I'm still patching up the bullet holes I got during the Great Disinterested War of 2013.

Even if it is something that originated among blacks, are we not allowed to think that certain styles that originated or are popular among blacks look stupid or idiotic?

The suspicion is that people think that certain styles look stupid or idiotic because they originated or are popular among blacks. I didn't want to bring it up in this thread.

An incident today reminded me of this thread. I was with a friend shopping for an MLB hat (which are very popular among kids in the UK, though they don't actually follow baseball...I think they just like the way they look. For instance one store had 12 fitted Gwinnett Braves hats, and 10 Scranton Wilkes-Barre Yankees hats for £25 a pop). And of course they all wear them flat-billed and tilted. My friend picked one out, tried it on, and reached up to bend the brim...and this lady working there came running and yelled at him "those are flat for a reason!"

It was just kind of funny, Rodney catching heat for wearing a hat "improperly" and then this guy catching heat for wearing at (as far as UK retailers are concerned) "improperly". The analogy doesn't entirely stand because it probably is poor form to alter the shape of any product before you actually buy it...but I think standards of proper hat-wearing are far from inherent.

took off into the mainstream after the movie Clueless used it in 1995. Of course all this is from the first page of googling, not from any great research effort.

I think you'll find Clueless borrowed it from Jane Austen's original Emma. Frankly that's what clued me in that it was an adaptation.

If any pushback regarding Rodney's hat stylings prevents us from experiencing a new trend as odious as the hipster/slackers choice to wear wool hats year round, I would support authority in their command and control efforts.

In a thread this pedantic, NO ONE has yet pointed out that 'disrespect' is not a m#####-f###### verb?

The colleague in [103] is absolutely right on 'no problem.' It's simply unprofessional because it's widely perceived to be; looking for logic in these kind of social norms is a fool's errand. Call it stupid all you like, in a business setting you're very likely to run into someone who feels that way eventually, so why not stick to professional diction? Why try to parse formal/informal? You can't change it.

I really am surprised at [110]'s shockingly blatant race-baiting.

The suspicion is that people think that certain styles look stupid or idiotic because they originated or are popular among blacks. I didn't want to bring it up in this thread.

I think we should always assume good faith until something else is demonstrated.

If any pushback regarding Rodney's hat stylings prevents us from experiencing a new trend as odious as the hipster/slackers choice to wear wool hats year round, I would support authority in their command and control efforts.

Oh, God yes.

It takes every fiber of restraint in my being to not ask "what kind of moron are you?" when I see a guy wearing a wool knit cap on a 110 degree subway platform in August.

Why try to parse formal/informal? You can't change it.

well, it does change over time. "You're welcome" at some point was probably seen as unprofessional.

The suspicion is that people think that certain styles look stupid or idiotic because they originated or are popular among blacks. I didn't want to bring it up in this thread.

I'm told we have our swarthy brethren to thank for the heinous "bumping uglies". I for one resent the diminution of the sex act. I also dislike "junk", though I suspect white people were involved in that formation.

...I'm still patching up the bullet holes I got during the Great Disinterested War of 2013.

That made me laugh out loud.

@145: WTF is up with that? How can your brain not fry in hot, sunny weather? I just assume that wearer can't be interested in brain function.

edit: Clueless was a lot of fun. One of those movies that take you by surprise, the way Galaxy Quest did, or Dale & Tucker vs. Evil. Speaking of movies, I just caught the last part of Saving Private Ryan. I wanted to check out how Spielberg shot the other long battle scene that with D-Day brackets the film--the fight for control over the bridge-- and I noted in around 12 minutes of film at least 125 separate cuts, and a lot of those involve one or two shots of a specific action, meaning the number of different scenes he had to set up and match was ridiculous. I don't think it's often you have to start storyboarding on maps, but he must have done with the end of Ryan.

I have a lot of problems with the film, but the craft involved in putting together the battle is extraordinary.