Ainge for some reason went straight to AAA out of high school apparently, and got a call up despite some wretched AAA numbers.

I don't know if that was to try and prevent Ainge from quitting baseball or what..

"there were virtually no star athletes in other sports, other than Bo Jackson, who showed hitting talent in the Majors that was even close to the skills they'd demonstrated in the NFL or NBA."

Deion Sanders had a 130 OPS+ as a CF in 1992 for Atlanta, with a league-leading 14 triples in only 97 games while hitting .304. His other years, he hit like - well, like an ok CF, not great.

In four games of the 1992 World Series, Deion Sanders batted .533 with 4 runs, 8 hits, 2 doubles, and 1 RBI while playing with a broken bone in his foot. During the NLCS that year, he pinch hit in a playoff game, played a football game the next day, and dressed for another playoff game that night. For Bobby Cox. People thought he had demonstrated his baseball skill at the highest possible level just fine, thank you very much

You know who else had great World Series? Mickey Hatcher (career OPS+ 89, just like Sanders). Billy Hatcher (career OPS+ of 86). Brian Doyle and Bucky Dent. And there are hundreds of players most people have never heard of who put up a 130 OPS+ for a single part time season. The fact remains that Sanders was a Hall of Fame football player and a thoroughly ordinary hitter, below average is putting it politely. Obviously Sanders was one of the top two sport athletes, but the gap between his football and baseball skills was much, much greater than Bo Jackson's. Jackson's demonstrated and repeated high level skills in two major professional sports, prior to his injury, remain in a class by themselves.

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Brian Jordan's career consisted of 32 games, 30 starts, at strong safety for the Atlanta Falcons at the ages of 23-24 (plus 4 games at age 22). He made the NFC Pro Bowl team as a reserve in 1991.

He played minor-league ball from 21 through 24 but given he never played more than half a season during that time, I'm guessing he prioritized football. I don't know when he officially gave up football but he made the Cards opening day roster at age 25 (1992) and never played in the NFL again.

Point taken about Brian Jordan, whose demonstrated multi-sport talent was clearly there (if not on Bo's level), but who simply chose one sport over the other.

But why act like Bo Jackson, as if he had Sanders' NFL career, also bestrode MLB like a colossus?
He basically had 4 years and almost 2000 PA, at 94-108-124-142 and out. And not CF.

Deion doesn't match Bo's numbers?
Really?

Bo was a better all-around athlete than Jordan.

Bo was overcoming the holes in his game when he was hurt. He had been getting better. Sanders after one good season was stagnated at sub-mediocrity for years. Bo still had the chance to put his game together to give us a couple of great seasons. Sanders didn't do that, and there's no evidence that Jordan was likely to.

Exactly. I, unlike Michael Jordan, was a baseball player. In what alternate universe is this not a point in favor of "Jesus Christ, that's impressive!"????

Jordan played baseball in high school too. He wasn't all-state, but he probably was pretty good (especially for that level) simply by nature of being a great athlete.

When I first heard about Michael Jordan trying out baseball, I thought he'd be able to hold his own in A or AA because the pitching isn't as well-developed, but that he'd never be a great major-leaguer because dealing with speed changes and breaking pitches requires a different level of experience that you can't fake with athleticism. I also thought that having the more developed upper body that is a part of growing out of your twenties would give him a significant strength advantage. I'd have thought that there were enough bad pitches at that level that a really good athlete would have a shot at reasonable success.

This was Michael Jordan, arguably one the greatest athletes in the history of sport, and noted for him incredible work ethic and competitiveness. He wasn't going to embarrass himself and it wasn't a stunt. I think what Jordan did was incredibly impressive by normal person standards, but he isn't a normal person. I expected him to do something incredibly impressive and I think he lived up to that expectation, but I don't think he surpassed a reasonable expectation.

He basically had 4 years and almost 2000 PA, at 94-108-124-142 and out. And not CF.

Bo played 61 games in CF during the 142 year.

whose demonstrated multi-sport talent was clearly there (if not on Bo's level)

I'll take Jordan's MLB career over Bo's anytime. Bo had just 7.2 WAR in 4 full seasons of PA, slightly below average. Brian Jordan had 6.8 WAR in 1998. From 28-32 he had 21 WAR in about 4 seasons of playing time. A LOT of that was stellar defense but it was still 11 oWAR.

In football, Bo wins although it's not obvious how to compare running backs with strong safeties. If you average the two, Bo wins I'm sure. But Brian Jordan was a much better baseball player than Bo Jackson.

But why act like Bo Jackson, as if he had Sanders' NFL career, also bestrode MLB like a colossus?
He basically had 4 years and almost 2000 PA, at 94-108-124-142 and out. And not CF.

Deion doesn't match Bo's numbers?
Really?

Howie, if this is about having to have two great careers, then nobody qualifies. But in terms of the relevant point---demonstrated ability to hit Major League pitching at a high level---Morty's reply is germane. Jackson's OPS+ for his five non-injured seasons progessed like this: 67, 94, 108, 124, 142. At that point he was 27 years old. Sanders peaked at the age of 24 with a part-time season of 130, then went down to 105, 89 and 94 before quitting. The athletic skills may have been there, but the ability to hit Major League pitching on a high level had only been demonstrated in brief spurts, sort of like Mickey Hatcher.

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whose demonstrated multi-sport talent was clearly there (if not on Bo's level)

I'll take Jordan's MLB career over Bo's anytime.

Sure, and as long as I can have Kevin Walker on my payroll, so would I.

Brian Jordan was a first round pick in mlb after playing in college, where he set his school's single season records for runs and steals (also hit for power).
Sanders was All-State as a Florida prep and played in college as well (ok bat, ton of steals) - was drafted multiple times.
Bo was a high draft pick (2nd rd) coming out of HS and his college baseball prowess is likely well known to you (had a +.400 season with loads of pop).
MJ did not play in college, or shortly after leaving college. He was not all-state as a prep or considering anything special outside of basketball, afaict. Apart from being a famous guy, there was no reason to think he'd do anything.

51/ainge - that's my understanding, yeah

Brian Jordan didn't get enough pub, IMO.

Brian Jordan's entire NFL career consisted of 20 punt returns and 8 kickoff returns. He was a good baseball player who dabbled in football, not the other way around.

Wow. Nothing personal, Andy, but in a forum full of RayDPs & Kehoskies, I think you've posted the most blatantly dishonest, misleading thing I've ever read here.

Just ... wow.

Dick Butkus' entire career consisted of 22 interceptions, BTW. Big deal.

Brian Jordan's entire NFL career consisted of 20 punt returns and 8 kickoff returns. He was a good baseball player who dabbled in football, not the other way around.

Wow. Nothing personal, Andy, but in a forum full of RayDPs & Kehoskies, I think you've posted the most blatantly dishonest, misleading thing I've ever read here.

Not dishonest, just based on a too-quick glance at PFB-Reference, whose statistics don't really do justice to defensive players. Look at what I wrote in #52 and you'll see I've already acknowledged the point you're implicitly making.

Dick Butkus' entire career consisted of 22 interceptions, BTW. Big deal.

Again, the problem is that PFB-Reference doesn't include statistics for tackles. I shouldn't have relied on it to make that initial comment I did about Jordan.

Deion sanders was a better football player than Bo Jackson.

Ah ... didn't catch #52. (Still waking up; only about halfway through my obligatory morning frappucino.) Good deal. Still, I'm somewhat surprised at the misstep, simply because I know that you (unlike me) do follow the NFL, if memory serves.

As far as the lack of decent stats for defensive players, I suppose that's yet another thing I find profoundly unlikable about football.

This article and the comments are strange. Jordan had a terrible year in 1994. He was the worst position player on a below average AA team. An outfielder having the lowest OPS and making 11 errors? He had no real power. His teammates didn't have much power either, but since the pitching staff gave up more than twice as many HR as the batters hit, it's probably more an indication of the team talent level than the parks they played in.

The only thing Jordan did remotely well was draw walks, and given that he also struck out a lot it speaks to an overmatched player providing the only value he can. In MLB we expect this sort of player to fall off a cliff the next year. So Jordan probably would have gotten worse, not better, had he continued playing.

So he was bad, but he wasn't as bad as a player possibly could be? Oh boy.

The statement

"there were virtually no star athletes in other sports, other than Bo Jackson, who showed hitting talent in the Majors that was even close to the skills they'd demonstrated in the NFL or NBA."

does not equal

Jackson's demonstrated and repeated high level skills in two major professional sports, prior to his injury, remain in a class by themselves

Putting up a 130 OPS+ as a simultaneous two sport starter seems to easily clear the "hitting talent"..."even close" bar. It's not that big a deal so I'll stop, but shifting the argument to anything short of Jackson is no true Scotsman was not your initial premise.

65 = nonsense.

Seriously, what's the expectation for a normal adult playing in AA? I would think it's something like an OPS of, I dunno, 200? I had similar numbers to Jordan on my JV team. I think I would be proud of myself if I hit a single line drive or got more than a couple proper hits during a whole season in AA.

Yes, Jordan was a world class athlete. I agree with Shock's comment #34, that doesn't change the quality of the feat in any way.

Michael Jordan was strong, but he wasn't baseball hitter strong. He simply didn't have the bat speed that one develops actually swinging at pitches over many times over many years. That can't be compensated for. Many who saw Jordan in action commented on Jordan's lack of bat speed. He was suddenly going to develop that post-31-years old.

Ah ... didn't catch #52. (Still waking up; only about halfway through my obligatory morning frappucino.) Good deal. Still, I'm somewhat surprised at the misstep, simply because I know that you (unlike me) do follow the NFL, if memory serves.

I follow the NFL come December, but not to the extent that I'm likely to remember much about a defensive player who played his entire three season career for a team I can't stand, a team that made the postseason once.

----------------------------------------

The statement

"there were virtually no star athletes in other sports, other than Bo Jackson, who showed hitting talent in the Majors that was even close to the skills they'd demonstrated in the NFL or NBA."

does not equal

Jackson's demonstrated and repeated high level skills in two major professional sports, prior to his injury, remain in a class by themselves

Putting up a 130 OPS+ as a simultaneous two sport starter seems to easily clear the "hitting talent"..."even close" bar. It's not that big a deal so I'll stop, but shifting the argument to anything short of Jackson is no true Scotsman was not your initial premise.

Read the first statement again. Do you seriously consider one brief (97 game) flurry of talent that Sanders displayed in baseball to be remotely close to his Hall of Fame football career? In that first statement I was comparing Sanders (MLB) to himself (NFL), and the gap was enormous.

Bo Jackson was on the NFL leaderboards in 2 or 3 different categories in 3 of the 4 years of his career. In 3 of those years, he had the longest run in the entire NFL. He was a second team All-Pro in 2 of those years. Jackson, unlike Sanders, was a genuine two sport star. Sanders was a one sport superstar who showed (very) brief promise in his second sport.

Seriously, what's the expectation for a normal adult playing in AA? I would think it's something like an OPS of, I dunno, 200? I had similar numbers to Jordan on my JV team. I think I would be proud of myself if I hit a single line drive or got more than a couple proper hits during a whole season in AA.

Let's not go too crazy when people like Brad Penny or Josh Beckett* (Whose numbers are also dragged down by the fact he apparently has decided to not even try anymore for fear of pulling a muscle I guess) have career OPS's of .350-.380 at an MLB level.

*On the flip side I readily admit 'just being an mlb pitcher' probably gives one an advantage similar to how GK's are better forwards than Alan Thropplemore in Section 22, if one is following the metaphor here.

edit: Also is there some kind of youth disconnect going on in this thread? Have I woken up in an alternate reality where Michael Jordan isn't a God? If you asked me to pick the one basketball player who had the best chance of walking away at age 31 and hitting .202 in AA...I'd say Michael Jordan every time.

Seriously, what's the expectation for a normal adult playing in AA? I would think it's something like an OPS of, I dunno, 200? I had similar numbers to Jordan on my JV team. I think I would be proud of myself if I hit a single line drive or got more than a couple proper hits during a whole season in AA.

I think that's just a little too pessimistic. If you did nothing but wait for a straight pitch dead center, you'd probably see enough of them to get a few good line drives. Once in a while, a pitcher is going to be trying out a curve that doesn't curve. Remember that you're able to practice several hours each day with professional coaching.

Seriously, what's the expectation for a normal adult playing in AA? I would think it's something like an OPS of, I dunno, 200? I had similar numbers to Jordan on my JV team. I think I would be proud of myself if I hit a single line drive or got more than a couple proper hits during a whole season in AA.

My sandlot team in DC had a future AAA pitcher in the rotation (Ray Miller, the future pitching coach for several ML teams), and I never had any problem hitting him in intrasquad games, since his repertory at the time consisted of nothing but a sinking fast ball. The problem is that there were thousands of 19 year olds who could have hit the 18 year old Ray Miller that year, and the chances are that only a tiny percentage of them would have been able to hit the 23 year old Ray Miller by the time they'd turned 24. I'd like to think I might have been one of those hitters whose skills would have evolved upward at the same rate that Miller's pitching skills did, but I'm under no illusions that I would have ever progressed any further than the Birmingham version of Michael Jordan.

Let's not go too crazy when people like Brad Penny or Josh Beckett* (Whose numbers are also dragged down by the fact he apparently has decided to not even try anymore for fear of pulling a muscle I guess) have career OPS's of .350-.380 at an MLB level.

In high school Josh Beckett hit ".506 and set school records with 11 home runs and 39 RBI." Couldn't find anything on Penny. These are not normal people you're talking about...

I think that's just a little too pessimistic. If you did nothing but wait for a straight pitch dead center, you'd probably see enough of them to get a few good line drives.

Once at Chelsea Piers I took two rounds at a batting cage that was set at 90 or 95 mph. Just for fun. Out of the 20-30 swings I had zero line drives, maybe hit 3 of them into what would be fair territory. I'm sure with practice I could have learned to put the meat of the bat on the ball consistently, but that would just be a timing trick, beginning my swing long before the ball was in the air.

Garth Brooks went 2-42 in spring training. One of those hits was "ruled a single." And he attended a D1 school on a track scholarship. (OK, he was in his late 30s.)

Trivia question, of the bar bet variety: what was Jackson's career high as a pro for rushing tds?
(Not intended as an assessment of value)

I think it's unfair to assume that bo had reached a new level of performance, pre-injury, as opposed to a fluke or career season. It may have been a permanent improvement - there may have been more to come - but I'm not convinced that that was likely.

Also, while I think Bo was a better baseball player than Deion, it's not open and shut. For example, through age 27 (Bo's healthy years), Deion had more WAA than Jackson and almost as many WAR. (And, if you use b-ref, were less valuable over that time than Brian Jordan was during his best season.)

Bo progressed each season over the preceding season. His last two season before the injury were very good offensively (and he had more playing time in those season than Deion had in his best seasons significantly more). Nothing's guaranteed, but you can not denied Bo's was progressing. That cannot be said for Sanders.

I'm not a football fan, so I'm just asking. How good a pro was Jackson? How good would he have been had he not played baseball and devoted himself full-time to that sport. People I know who are football fans said he could very well have been the best. ???

if you go by techmo he was the best running back in the league

Jackson was quite good. If you wanted to tout him, look at his yards per carry – he compares favorably with almost anyone in football history. That said, this figure is buoyed by his job share with Marcus Allen, though that depressed his touchdown total in turn.
(Jackson's Single season high for rushing scores was five. Also, he scored less touchdowns over his career then Sanders did – again, this is just trivia.)

I find the idea that Jackson could've been the greatest running back of all time has he devoted himself to it full-time quite credible. In so many ways, he's a what could have been story and yet I don't view his career as representing unfulfilled promise, instead I'm amazed by what he did manage to do.

if you go by techmo he was the best running back in the league

There should be a law for this like there is for Hitler. Whenever someone mentions Bo Jackson on the internet invariably someone will bring up Techmo Bowl. Call it the Bo Knows Law.

Seriously, what's the expectation for a normal adult playing in AA? I would think it's something like an OPS of, I dunno, 200? I had similar numbers to Jordan on my JV team. I think I would be proud of myself if I hit a single line drive or got more than a couple proper hits during a whole season in AA.

Yes, Jordan was a world class athlete. I agree with Shock's comment #34, that doesn't change the quality of the feat in any way.

Jordan deserves a grade of F for his performance in AA. He should have been sent down or released well before the season ended. The .202 sort of overstates his value because players have to add more things (hit for power, play shortstop) than Jordan added to carry a .202 average. Jordan wasn't good enough to get away with hitting .202 anyway.

edit: Also is there some kind of youth disconnect going on in this thread? Have I woken up in an alternate reality where Michael Jordan isn't a God? If you asked me to pick the one basketball player who had the best chance of walking away at age 31 and hitting .202 in AA...I'd say Michael Jordan every time.

I'd have picked someone shorter. His height wasn't that much of an advantage for a position player, whereas in basketball it was essential. So a 6-1 Jordan might be constrained in the NBA, but be as good or better in baseball.

There have definitely been 6-6 players in baseball, but in watching Jordan play baseball, he did not look like he had a baseball player's body. Maybe he needed to be a less gangly 6-6, which probably would have limited him in basketball but helped in baseball.

Go to youtube some time to see Bo Jackson highlights. Even as large as he was, he was legitimately the fastest player on the field. I have no doubt whatsoever that he had Hall of Fame talent.

"Greatest running back ever" is tricky, because he didn't have a full career. But if you could choose any running back, at the peak of their powers, to play a single game, he'd be an excellent pick.

I'm not a football fan, so I'm just asking. How good a pro was Jackson? How good would he have been had he not played baseball and devoted himself full-time to that sport. People I know who are football fans said he could very well have been the best. ???

He was fantastic. His Monday Night Football game against Seattle was one of the great performances of the ages. I dunno if he would've been the best ever, but he was clearly among the best of his generation as he was.

Once at Chelsea Piers I took two rounds at a batting cage that was set at 90 or 95 mph. Just for fun. Out of the 20-30 swings I had zero line drives, maybe hit 3 of them into what would be fair territory. I'm sure with practice I could have learned to put the meat of the bat on the ball consistently, but that would just be a timing trick, beginning my swing long before the ball was in the air.

Serious question: has anyone done a study regarding whether pitching machines are harder to hit than real pitchers? Cause it just seems that whether the machine has a mechanical arm or is shooting the balls out...it hides the ball much better than a person does. Jus askin, I haven't been in a batting cage in forever.

There should be a law for this like there is for Hitler. Whenever someone mentions Bo Jackson on the internet invariably someone will bring up Techmo Bowl. Call it the Bo Knows Law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PBvOxicz-0

After a sorta rocky, rushed start in the bigs, Deion played pretty well. From 1992-1995, he put up a 103 OPS+ while playing a plus CF/LF. He would have probably been a 3+ WAR player over that time period had he had played full seasons. He then took the year off in 1996 to concentrate on football and kinda 'lost it' by the time he came back in 1997. I think he and Bo's baseball careers are fairly comparable, though obviously they brought very different pluses to the table.

There are a few things I remember from going to games over the years. One is I've never seen anyone hit the ball as hard as Vladimir Guerrero. Another is I've never seen anyone run from 1st to 3rd as fast as Deion Sanders.

Sir Ian Botham, one of the greatest cricket players in English history, was also good enough at soccer to play for Yeovil Town and Scunthorpe United in the Football League.