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Ichiro is Yankee enough, but are the Yankees Ichiro enough?
4.Gamingboy posted on February 27, 2013 at 02:11 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Hang on, I made this as a joke a few days ago when Granderson got hurt: They could replace his home runs by convincing Ichiro that he wanted to hit more home runs.
“I’ll hit home runs,” he said. “If it’s OK for me to hit .200.”
And then he smiled. Broadly.
Doing a little eye-balling, for Ichiro! to hit around .200 while still achieving an OPS around where he's been the last few years (.700 or so), he'd need about 30 HRs.
Tell you what, Ichiro, how about you want to hit home runs in some at-bats, and you want to do that thing where you run halfway to first base while you're swinging and beat out a grounder to shortstop in other at-bats?
This and "Alfonso Soriano is available" just never get old.
Funnily enough for Ichiro, it would seem to present itself as the perfect storm. Homers are easier to come by in Yankee stadium and they do require someone to try to step up. I'd love to see him try to hit 25-30 homers just for the hell of it.
Funnily enough for Ichiro, it would seem to present itself as the perfect storm. Homers are easier to come by in Yankee stadium and they do require someone to try to step up. I'd love to see him try to hit 25-30 homers just for the hell of it.
If Ichiro went out and put up a 1982 Dave Kingman stat line, it would be f@cking awesome. I would bow down. He would be my Lord and Master.
It is not for us to question the ways of the gods.
Can we question the replacement level?
14.BDC posted on February 27, 2013 at 07:04 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
There's a story about Ty Cobb (IIRC) in which he decided that Babe Ruth was getting entirely too much press, and proceeded to hit three home runs in one game, and then said "#### that, I just wanted to show I could do it." I believe that Cobb actually did have a 3-HR game in the 1920s, and I think that he would have had considerable power had he been born a few decades later (George Brett is probably an excellent comp for Cobb as a hitter, allowing for era). But I have no idea whether the story of Cobb's attitude is true.
There's a story about Ty Cobb (IIRC) in which he decided that Babe Ruth was getting entirely too much press, and proceeded to hit three home runs in one game, and then said "#### that, I just wanted to show I could do it." I believe that Cobb actually did have a 3-HR game in the 1920s, and I think that he would have had considerable power had he been born a few decades later (George Brett is probably an excellent comp for Cobb as a hitter, allowing for era). But I have no idea whether the story of Cobb's attitude is true.
I think it's been researched and verified, and it was more than him hitting three homeruns, it's that he told the press he was going to go out there and hit homeruns before the game.
Perhaps in need of a fisking as far as Cobb's purported intent, but the story covers May 5-6, 1925. On the 5th, he went 6-for-6 with a double and three home runs; the next day he had two more home runs.
There's a story about Ty Cobb (IIRC) in which he decided that Babe Ruth was getting entirely too much press, and proceeded to hit three home runs in one game, and then said "#### that, I just wanted to show I could do it."
FWIW- Pete Rose in the 1960s a quasi-deadball era, hit 10-15 homers a year, basically equivalent to hitting 15-20 in most other eras
then his K-rate dropped some 30-40% and he averaged 3-5 homers a year the rest of his career- he wasn't hurt- he was Pete Rose and he was obsessed with getting 200 hits a year and getting to 3000 then 4000 hits... (And walk rate went up as his k-rate went down too- he was a very selective hitter in the later half of his career- his whole approach was geared to making solid contact but not necessarily to drive the ball- lost of doubles but no homers)
Perhaps in need of a fisking as far as Cobb's purported intent, but the story covers May 5-6, 1925. On the 5th, he went 6-for-6 with a double and three home runs; the next day he had two more home runs.
I guess if you're going to call your shot that way, you'd want to do it against the league's worst pitching staff and its best home-run-hitting park.
That's not a knock on what Cobb said & did; just that he was smart not to bring it up, say, before the Tigers' 4-game series at Comiskey a couple of weeks earlier.
In 1925, Cobb went from May 7 to June 1 without a homer, and then from June 26 to October 1 without a homer. Weird. Eerie.
There was a guy James Weisberg who on the old rsbb who argued profusely that Cobb could have done it had he wanted to. So Ichiro! is the newcomer to this meme. :)
I'm pretty sure I could've done it if I wanted to, as soon as I find out was "it" is, and what "is" really means.
All of us could have done it if we'd wanted to. It's the one and only qualification for the Old Farts Club. All ages welcome!
30.bobm posted on February 28, 2013 at 12:06 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
The day Ty Cobb hit three home runs
May 15, 2012
By David Schoenfield | ESPN.com [...]
In Charles C. Alexander's biography of Cobb, he cites a story of Cobb sitting in the dugout before the game and telling a sportswriter, "I'll show you something today. I'm going for home runs for the first time in my career."
See? Cobb could have hit 40 or 50 home runs, just like Ruth. Alexander writes, "He had ... made his point: There were different ways to play baseball. He still loved the old game, still preferred most of the time to 'nip' at the ball, as Walter Johnson had once described his hitting style. But he could also clout with the musclemen when he chose."
You know what? I think the whole notion is a bunch of rubbish. The quote that Alexander cites comes not from a contemporaneous account, but from a 1961 article in The Sporting News that ran a few months after Cobb died. The story was told by Sid Keener, a former sportswriter and then the 73-year-old director of the Hall of Fame. You don't think that perhaps a little myth-making was at work here?
Aside from that, there are two other major loopholes in this legend.
Ruth first cracked the 50-homer barrier in 1920. Why did Cobb wait until 1925 -- when he was 38 years old -- to show he could "clout with the musclemen" if he wanted? There's also the fact that after that five-homer outburst, Cobb hit just seven home runs the remainder of the season, finishing with 12 to match his career-best.
Why did he suddenly stop hitting home runs? The Tigers won those two games in St. Louis, scoring 25 runs. Cobb didn't homer again until June 1, even though the Tigers went just 13-12 in games he played. From July 12 through Aug. 22, the Tigers went 8-16 in games Cobb played and he went homerless. Surely, a few home runs may have helped the Tigers win another game or two, no?
Look, I'm sure if Cobb had arrived in the major leagues in 1920 he would have adopted more easily to the modern game and hit a few more home runs. He was a big guy for his era -- 6-foot-1 -- and had extra-base power. But in the end, this tale doesn't add up. Ty Cobb had a great game -- or a great two games. But the idea that he could have matched Ruth's power approach is absurd, as ridiculous as those who suggest Ichiro could hit more home runs if only he wanted to. [Emphasis added]
I'm pretty sure I could've done it if I wanted to, as soon as I find out was "it" is, and what "is" really means.
Well, Clara Bow had the it, and Bill Clinton can tell you all about the is. It's on first and is is rounding third and heading for home.
I once hit .520 in high school and .600 in a DC sandlot league that had at least one future Major Leaguer and several minor leaguers. I'm sure if I'd stuck with it I could've hit .680 in AAA and who knows what in Japan, as long as they didn't make me eat fish.
I once got the game winning hit in the championship game in little league, after not getting a hit all year (right field, last player in. I don't think I had swung at a pitch all year). Like Ichiro, I must have decided I could do it.
33.BDC posted on February 28, 2013 at 09:13 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
Thanks, bob m! The answer to this rhetorical question:
Why did he suddenly stop hitting home runs?
at least per the myth, is that Cobb "had made his point," as Alexander says: much like a prestige writer suddenly cranking out a bestseller (the Autobiography of Alice B Toklas comes to mind, as well as a short story idea: Ty Cobb visits Gertrude Stein to discuss aesthetics ) After you show you can do it, you go back to the more refined style of play.
Nobody can discuss aesthetics like Ichiro, so I look forward to some sort of colloquium after his inevitable 3-HR game this year.
The thing that has always struck me about the Cobb story is that even if it's true, why is it put forth as a positive story for Cobb? If he could really just choose to hit home runs, and moreover could do so at such a phenomenally high rate, he was stupid not to so choose.
38.tfbg9 posted on February 28, 2013 at 12:22 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
There's a Cobb story I semi-remember that featues him in CF as a player-manager. Ruth was at the plate. Cobb pulled an elaborate ruse on Ruth to trick him
into looking at strike three, using a fake IBB Ruth set-up, going thru 3 pitchers to do so, and a lot of fake rage, "if I tell you to %$^&ing; walk this big
gorilla, you damned well are gonna walk him. Unnerstand bush?" Something like that.
After Ruth looked helplessly at strike 3, bat on shoulder, Cobb supposedly rolled around on the outfield grass, cackling.
I've heard this before, but with "some player", not Ruth. Basically it goes like this:
- Cobb walks to the pitcher's mound to pretend to tell the pitcher to IBB the batter. Instead tells the pitcher to groove a fastball. Cobb goes back out to CF.
- Pitcher puts a strike right down the middle. Cobb goes nuts, runs in, yells at the pitcher, brings in a reliever, goes back to CF.
- New pitcher puts a strike right down the middle. Cobb goes ballistic, runs in, screams at the pitcher, brings in a reliever, screams at the new guy, goes back to CF.
- Newer pitcher throws strike three right down the middle.
No clue whether this story had ever been verified.
44.tfbg9 posted on February 28, 2013 at 01:33 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
@43-Yes, that's more or less it, except as I remember it, the batter was Ruth, and the version I semi-recall has Cobb doing the Snoopy Dance
in CF after its pull-off, laughing his butt off, etc.
45.AROM posted on February 28, 2013 at 01:40 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
When was the rule implemented that a new pitcher had to face at least one batter?
If that rule was not in effect in 1925, Retrosheet should have a box score showing a reliever who did not complete 1 BFP.
Well, a pitcher has to complete at least one at-bat, so it doesn't quite work as you're telling it. As I heard it, Ruth had a 3-2 count, and Cobb ran in to very theatrically tell the pitcher and catcher to just complete the IBB. The catcher stands wide of the box and everything, then the pitcher throws one down the middle.
If that story is true, and if Cobb were really transcendently brilliant, he would not have preened. It might have worked another time. Real Machiavellian players don't give away their secrets.
I hate it when guys like Chris Truby & Albert Belle & Bitter Mouse loiter here for the memes.
LOL
50.smileyy posted on February 28, 2013 at 02:10 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
If he could really just choose to hit home runs, and moreover could do so at such a phenomenally high rate, he was stupid not to so choose.
I think you've captured the myth and mystique of baseball right there.
Historians might know better than I -- was there an environmental shift (bats, balls, stadia, lighting, pitching style) that made a flyball/HR swing more effective in the 20s than it had been earlier? I recall hearing tales of prohibitions on uppercut swings. If true, were they grounded in truth or faulty conventional wisdom?
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1 2 >I freaking love Ichiro!.
And then he smiled. Broadly.
Doing a little eye-balling, for Ichiro! to hit around .200 while still achieving an OPS around where he's been the last few years (.700 or so), he'd need about 30 HRs.
Ichiro a TTOer? Say it ain't so!
Funnily enough for Ichiro, it would seem to present itself as the perfect storm. Homers are easier to come by in Yankee stadium and they do require someone to try to step up. I'd love to see him try to hit 25-30 homers just for the hell of it.
If Ichiro went out and put up a 1982 Dave Kingman stat line, it would be f@cking awesome. I would bow down. He would be my Lord and Master.
Can we question the replacement level?
I think it's been researched and verified, and it was more than him hitting three homeruns, it's that he told the press he was going to go out there and hit homeruns before the game.
They'll be fine!
why anyone thought they needed to add to the legend of an already fascinating player baffles me
and others lapped it up
good grief
FWIW- Pete Rose in the 1960s a quasi-deadball era, hit 10-15 homers a year, basically equivalent to hitting 15-20 in most other eras
then his K-rate dropped some 30-40% and he averaged 3-5 homers a year the rest of his career- he wasn't hurt- he was Pete Rose and he was obsessed with getting 200 hits a year and getting to 3000 then 4000 hits... (And walk rate went up as his k-rate went down too- he was a very selective hitter in the later half of his career- his whole approach was geared to making solid contact but not necessarily to drive the ball- lost of doubles but no homers)
I'm half rooting for him to hit 20 in 400 at bats just to see the Ichiro naysayers have anyuerisms
I'm entirely rooting, but only if his batting average is .198, with 139 strikeouts.
I guess if you're going to call your shot that way, you'd want to do it against the league's worst pitching staff and its best home-run-hitting park.
That's not a knock on what Cobb said & did; just that he was smart not to bring it up, say, before the Tigers' 4-game series at Comiskey a couple of weeks earlier.
In 1925, Cobb went from May 7 to June 1 without a homer, and then from June 26 to October 1 without a homer. Weird. Eerie.
All of us could have done it if we'd wanted to. It's the one and only qualification for the Old Farts Club. All ages welcome!
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/24437/the-day-ty-cobb-hit-three-home-runs
Well, Clara Bow had the it, and Bill Clinton can tell you all about the is. It's on first and is is rounding third and heading for home.
I once hit .520 in high school and .600 in a DC sandlot league that had at least one future Major Leaguer and several minor leaguers. I'm sure if I'd stuck with it I could've hit .680 in AAA and who knows what in Japan, as long as they didn't make me eat fish.
at least per the myth, is that Cobb "had made his point," as Alexander says: much like a prestige writer suddenly cranking out a bestseller (the Autobiography of Alice B Toklas comes to mind, as well as a short story idea: Ty Cobb visits Gertrude Stein to discuss aesthetics ) After you show you can do it, you go back to the more refined style of play.
Nobody can discuss aesthetics like Ichiro, so I look forward to some sort of colloquium after his inevitable 3-HR game this year.
into looking at strike three, using a fake IBB Ruth set-up, going thru 3 pitchers to do so, and a lot of fake rage, "if I tell you to %$^&ing; walk this big
gorilla, you damned well are gonna walk him. Unnerstand bush?" Something like that.
After Ruth looked helplessly at strike 3, bat on shoulder, Cobb supposedly rolled around on the outfield grass, cackling.
Anybody else hear of this tale?
Sounds like a handle change is in order!
I remember the trolling well, but not the revelation.
Speaking of rsbb trolls, whither Roger L. Maynard?
Cordially, as always.
Behold! A new BTF meme!
I've heard this before, but with "some player", not Ruth. Basically it goes like this:
- Cobb walks to the pitcher's mound to pretend to tell the pitcher to IBB the batter. Instead tells the pitcher to groove a fastball. Cobb goes back out to CF.
- Pitcher puts a strike right down the middle. Cobb goes nuts, runs in, yells at the pitcher, brings in a reliever, goes back to CF.
- New pitcher puts a strike right down the middle. Cobb goes ballistic, runs in, screams at the pitcher, brings in a reliever, screams at the new guy, goes back to CF.
- Newer pitcher throws strike three right down the middle.
No clue whether this story had ever been verified.
in CF after its pull-off, laughing his butt off, etc.
If that rule was not in effect in 1925, Retrosheet should have a box score showing a reliever who did not complete 1 BFP.
No idea whether that one is true, either.
Done!
LOL
I think you've captured the myth and mystique of baseball right there.
Historians might know better than I -- was there an environmental shift (bats, balls, stadia, lighting, pitching style) that made a flyball/HR swing more effective in the 20s than it had been earlier? I recall hearing tales of prohibitions on uppercut swings. If true, were they grounded in truth or faulty conventional wisdom?
Page 1 of 2 pages
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