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Wednesday, February 11, 2009

$15M Lawsuit claims ex-Met Roberto Alomar had sex knowing he had AIDS

Baseball great Roberto Alomar has full-blown AIDS but insisted on having unprotected sex, his ex-girlfriend charged Tuesday in a bombshell lawsuit.

The shocking claim was leveled by Ilya Dall, 31, who said she lived with the ex-Met for three years and watched in horror as his health worsened.

In papers filed in state and federal court, Dall said Alomar finally got tested in January 2006 while suffering from a cough, fatigue and shingles. “The test results of him being HIV-positive was given to him and the plaintiff on or about Feb.6, 2006,” the $15 million negligence suit says.

Nine days later, the couple went to see a disease specialist who discovered a mass in the retired second baseman’s chest, the court papers say. Alomar’s skin had turned purple, he was foaming at the mouth and a spinal tap “showed he had full-blown AIDS,” the suit says.

Alomar, 41, who quit baseball over health issues in 2005, could not be reached for comment.

His lawyer, Charles Bach, would not say whether Alomar is HIV-positive. “We believe this is a totally frivolous lawsuit. These allegations are baseless,” Bach said. “He’s healthy and would like to keep his health status private. We’ll do our talking in court.”

Repoz Posted: February 11, 2009 at 12:04 PM | 293 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: arizona, blue jays, indians, mets, orioles, padres, rumors, special topics, white sox

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   101. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 04:56 PM (#3074394)
For Arva and others who are upset about an assumption that a male who contracts this disease may be engaging in gay sex would you feel all that much better if the comment was that he must have been engaging in risky behavior? Whether it is anal sex or sharing needles or whatever else it all comes down to risky behavior.

Sure, although "risky behavior" could just mean having unprotected sex with someone who hasn't been tested, or having anal sex with a woman, etc. I'm sure he wouldn't be the first ballplayer to have done either one.
   102. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 04:58 PM (#3074397)
"If it is proven (in a general sense, not legally) that he knew he had HIV and kept having unprotected sex, or really any sex with an uninfected person, and hid it from that person, then I think it has a big impact.

That's about as bad as behavior gets without actually killing someone."


That IS killing someone. They just don't die right away.
Except, if you RTFA, she doesn't have AIDS/didn't get it from him. So it might be lots of things, but it's not killing someone.


Forget assumption of risk. Why would you have sex with a guy so obviously sick? Forget AIDS. Just in terms of general appearance?
Allow me to answer that question with a quote FTA:
"I have no comment," she said outside her lavish home in Whitestone, Queens, after getting out of a black Cadillac Escalade.
   103. scotto Posted: February 11, 2009 at 04:59 PM (#3074398)
Should Alomar even be alive right now if has full blown AIDS? It has been at least 3 years since he had "full blown AIDS". If he truly has AIDS he should be dead by now.

The definition of AIDS, IIRC, is a t-cell count below 100. People can live for years when they get below that level if the opportunistic infections are controlled. My younger brother has lived for several years with full-blown AIDS, and is being treated for lymphoma for the past year. When I worked for an attorney we represented a family who were all diagnosed with AIDS. The mom and two kids lived for several years with full-blown AIDS.

It's not the AIDS that kills you, it's the other stuff that takes advantage of your lack of an immune system.
   104. billyshears Posted: February 11, 2009 at 04:59 PM (#3074399)
What kind of man are you? You're worthless and weak. You do nothing. You are nothing. You're sitting here all day playing that sick, disgusting, electric twanger. I carried an M-16 and you carry that, that, that... GUITAR! Who are you? Where do you come from? Are you listening to me? What do you want to do with your life?


I wanna rock.
   105. GregQ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:01 PM (#3074405)
Take heart disease, if you smoke, eat like crap and don't exercise in your adult life you don't "deserve" a heart attack

No in this case you earned it the old fashion way.
   106. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:02 PM (#3074407)
The high transmission rate is also directly related to the type of sex that the truckers prefer. Apparently the men prefer the women to have very dry vaginas - which leads to more small internal cuts in the vaginal walls during intercourse.

I read in one of Hirsi Ali's (the Somali-born former Dutch parliamentarian) books that Muslim men have that same preference. That seems extremely odd, and uncomfortable. Is there some sort of religious/supestitious reason for this, or does a whole religion and continent just not know how to **** properly?
   107. bunyon Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:03 PM (#3074409)
Allow me to answer that question with a quote FTA:

"I have no comment," she said outside her lavish home in Whitestone, Queens, after getting out of a black Cadillac Escalade.


Of course. Duh. Should've thought of that.


Incidentally, I've been wondering how everyone seems to know you're having a kid, David. I couldn't find the thread that announced it or anything. Anyway, allow me and my brilliant observational skills congratulate you!
   108. McCoy Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:04 PM (#3074410)
What is "several years"?

It is likely that Alomar has had AIDS for at least 4 years now maybe longer. So is several 10 years? 5 years? 3 years?
   109. Dan Szymborski Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:05 PM (#3074412)
While AIDS survival has improved, to nearly 4 years after AIDS has been diagnosed, the odds that someone that contracted HIV in 1985 would still be able to physically star in a professional sports league 16 years later and be alive 24 years later seem to be pretty long.
   110. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:05 PM (#3074413)
The instant reaction to any statement about risky behaviors (in many settings) seems, to me, to belie a view that doesn't allow for not judging everything.


Wait, so it does allow for judging everything?

I deal with patients all the time, and there is so much shame and stigma attached to getting disease, and often so little sympathy that it breaks my heart. I worked with an older homeless man with AIDS the other day, and yeah, he was a drug addict. He engaged in high-risk behavior, but do you know why? He grew up basically without parents who ever looked after him, he wasn't able to graduate high school, and he turned to drugs because they made him feel better about having a crappy life that was going nowhere. Sure, people who engage in risky behaviors tend to have a higher burden of disease, but why did they have/take those risks in the first place? What were the underlying causes? For all the attention paid to risk factors, people seem almost actively disinterested in how those risk factors develop.
   111. scotto Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:10 PM (#3074424)
It is likely that Alomar has had AIDS for at least 4 years now maybe longer. So is several 10 years? 5 years? 3 years?

I'm going to assume that you're not being a dick intentionally.

There's being exposed to the HIV virus, which is a condition called HIV-positive, and there's having AIDS, which is when your immune system essentially ceases to function, leaving you open to other infections. In the case of my brother, I don't know exactly when his t-cell count dropped below 100, which if you read earlier, is the clinical definition of AIDS. I would guess it has been several years, meaning somewhere between 3-6 years. I know that is the approximate time period that he's been covered under a state catastrophic health insurance plan, which kicks in when there's no other option and you're deathly ill.

Regarding the mother and her two kids, she lasted at least five years with AIDS, long enough to bury her two children, who were infected through placental exchange in one instance, and via breast milk in the other.
   112. McCoy Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:10 PM (#3074425)
According to a study done by the CDC the average life expectancy of a person with AIDS and getting treatment is 6 years and it maybe even longer nowadays. But the thing I don't know about is what is the life expectancy of somebody who starts treatment only after having full blown AIDS and it is hitting them hard. I would think their life expectancy to be dramatically lower then the 6 years posted in the study.
   113. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:12 PM (#3074427)
Roberto Alomar and this woman should both go to jail
   114. A.T.F.W. Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:12 PM (#3074428)

It's not judgement, it's just a fact. There are risky behaviors for contracting AIDS. Someone may engage in them without "deserving" to get the disease. Well, check that, I don't believe anyone ever "deserves" any medical condition. Take heart disease, if you smoke, eat like crap and don't exercise in your adult life you don't "deserve" a heart attack, but you, and your friends and family, certainly can't be shocked when it happens.

The instant reaction to any statement about risky behaviors (in many settings) seems, to me, to belie a view that doesn't allow for not judging everything.


You're point is valid, but in the real world there is a hell of a lot of judgment passed when someone is known to have AIDS.
   115. McCoy Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:15 PM (#3074432)
I can see the point Scotto, to be honest I was skimming your posts.
   116. scotto Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:17 PM (#3074434)
Fair enough, McCoy.
   117. rfloh Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:18 PM (#3074436)
It's not judgement, it's just a fact. There are risky behaviors for contracting AIDS. Someone may engage in them without "deserving" to get the disease. Well, check that, I don't believe anyone ever "deserves" any medical condition. Take heart disease, if you smoke, eat like crap and don't exercise in your adult life you don't "deserve" a heart attack, but you, and your friends and family, certainly can't be shocked when it happens.

The instant reaction to any statement about risky behaviors (in many settings) seems, to me, to belie a view that doesn't allow for not judging everything.


It is not simply just an issue of judging or "deserving".

It is that one can get HIV via unprotected heterosexual sex. It is that this idea that HIV is contracted via gay sex, or use of needels, can lead to risky behaviour by heterosexuals.
   118. baric Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:20 PM (#3074437)
Let's be clear about something here. This remains a private matter between Alomar and Dall. At no point has either of them approached the press. They never sold tickets to the public to watch them have sex. Everything in the article except Hirschbeck's comments are quoted from the lawsuit. This is an example of the media digging up a scandalous court case and then running to the plaintiff and defendant in order to sensationalize it.

Let them deal with this in court.
   119. McCoy Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:22 PM (#3074443)
You mean that public doohickey where people air their grievances in public?
   120. BeanoCook Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:25 PM (#3074449)
What does having AIDs have to do with homosexuality?


This has got to be the stupidest person on the face of the earth.
   121. Roger Cedeno's Spleen Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:30 PM (#3074460)
Come on, it's obvious... he caught it while sharing steroid needles...
   122. RJ in TO Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:31 PM (#3074463)
While AIDS survival has improved, to nearly 4 years after AIDS has been diagnosed, the odds that someone that contracted HIV in 1985 would still be able to physically star in a professional sports league 16 years later and be alive 24 years later seem to be pretty long.


Magic Johnson was diagnosed with HIV in 1991, and is apparently still in excellent health (although he has had the advantage of the most progressive treatment available). Also, contracting HIV does not automatically lead to development of AIDS:

Without treatment, about 9 out of every 10 persons with HIV will progress to AIDS after 10-15 years.


Assuming that the accusations are true, and Alomar is actually suffering from AIDS, it's entirely possible that HIV/AIDS just took a long time to develop.
   123. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:31 PM (#3074467)
"Except, if you RTFA, she doesn't have AIDS/didn't get it from him. So it might be lots of things, but it's not killing someone."

Where did I say any of that? I said that if you know that you have AIDS and you have unprotected sex with someone who doesn't, and infect them, that it's just as bad as shooting them or stabbing them or hitting them in the head with a blunt implement until brain goo comes out. Which is true.
   124. E., Hinske Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:36 PM (#3074476)
@123: I think that it's more in the vein of driving drunk, although a bit worse in that impaired judgment when the decision is made isn't going to necessarily be a factor.

In any event, it clearly warrants one's children being taken away.
   125. bunyon Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:37 PM (#3074481)
scotto, my sympathies about your brother. That sucks.
   126. The Good Face Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:38 PM (#3074485)
Roberto Alomar and this woman should both go to jail



At the very least, they owe Keith Hernandez an apology.
   127. scotto Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:43 PM (#3074497)
scotto, my sympathies about your brother. That sucks.

Thanks bunyon. I appreciate it.
   128. DL from MN Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:45 PM (#3074500)
I hope (but I doubt) that this will not affect the Hall of Fame voting for Alomar on the next ballot. I'd hate to see him go in or be kept out due to his personal life and health situation.
   129. bfan Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:48 PM (#3074506)
"Alan Wiggins had AIDS, too, eh?

I note for the record that both he and Alomar are switch-hitters.

Just sayin' is all."

Now if Roberto Alomar has a daughter that goes on to star in basketball at Stanford, we will really have a coincidence.
   130. flournoy Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:54 PM (#3074517)
Now if Roberto Alomar has a daughter that goes on to star in basketball at Stanford, we will really have a coincidence.


It's hard to tell, but I think you missed the joke.
   131. Freeballin' (Tales of Met Power) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 05:56 PM (#3074520)
Knowingly having unprotected sex with somebody when you know and the other person does not know that you have HIV is considered to qualify as the tort of battery (not negligence).

The catch is that unless you have an injury (like getting HIV), you can't recover (more than a nominal amount). That is why you have these mental distress allegations.
   132. Martin Hemner Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:03 PM (#3074532)
It's hard to tell, but I think you missed the joke.

I think he did, but I had never heard of Candace Wiggins before. Making lemons into lemonade, that's what we do here.
   133. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:10 PM (#3074539)
horrible news ....
I just hope the Media leaves him alone, and lets him do his thing in peace.
   134. ValueArb Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:21 PM (#3074553)


Of course it is, nobody is pretending otherwise. Automatically assuming only gay men can get AIDS is ignoring reality however.

HIV infection was the 5th leading cause of death among all women aged 35–44 years and the 6th leading cause of death among all women aged 25–34 years. The only diseases causing more deaths of women were cancer and heart disease


Link


Quoted for a high ratio of uber misleadingness.

The same link tells you that 74% of people diagnosed with AIDs are male.

What we know is that very few woman die between the ages of 25-44 years, so death only happens through an extraordinary disease or event. When you go down to 5th or 6th on the list, it means it happens very, very, rarely. The link actually says that 4,128 U.S. woman died of AIDs in 2005 out of a population exceeding 150 Million. Over 260,000 woman died of cancer in 2005, over 450,000 died of heart disease, 76,000 died in accidents, 14,000 murdered, etc.

http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/Number of Deaths 113 Causes 2005.html

AIDs is horrible. It's also rare.
   135. FBI Regional Bureau Chief GORDON COLE!!! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:23 PM (#3074557)
Apparently the men prefer the women to have very dry vaginas

Far be it from me to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't find pleasurable, but...WTF?
   136. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:25 PM (#3074559)
What kind of man are you? You're worthless and weak. You do nothing. You are nothing. You're sitting here all day playing that sick, disgusting, electric twanger. I carried an M-16 and you carry that, that, that... GUITAR! Who are you? Where do you come from? Are you listening to me? What do you want to do with your life?



I wanna Rock (Raines) in the BBHOF.


Fixed that for you.
   137. Dan The Mediocre Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:29 PM (#3074560)
Far be it from me to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't find pleasurable, but...WTF?


It gets worse when you find out that they use desiccants to dry it out beforehand.
   138. Dan Szymborski Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:31 PM (#3074562)

Magic Johnson was diagnosed with HIV in 1991, and is apparently still in excellent health (although he has had the advantage of the most progressive treatment available).


Isn't that last bit kind of the crux of the issue? Alomar would have had years of inferior 80s treatment and it seems, if his ex has any credibility, he wasn't exactly treating it aggressively.
   139. Gamingboy Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:32 PM (#3074563)
   140. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:32 PM (#3074564)
Someone may engage in them without "deserving" to get the disease. Well, check that, I don't believe anyone ever "deserves" any medical condition.
Well, if you're going to name yourself after a disease, you deserve to get it. (I'm looking at you, Gehrig!)
   141. bunyon Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:37 PM (#3074567)
It gets worse when you find out that they use desiccants to dry it out beforehand.

Please, please stop. I just...words fail me.
   142. RJ in TO Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:38 PM (#3074570)
Isn't that last bit kind of the crux of the issue?


As noted in the next bit:

Without treatment, about 9 out of every 10 persons with HIV will progress to AIDS after 10-15 years.


Not getting treatment doesn't mean that HIV will always kick in at the same time. He could be the 1 out of 10 for whom it takes longer to develop into AIDS.
   143. FBI Regional Bureau Chief GORDON COLE!!! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:38 PM (#3074571)
And here, I always thought Gehrig dying of Lou Gehrig's Disease was just an astounding coincidence!
   144. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:40 PM (#3074575)
Everything about this thread's subject is depressing and upsetting, and I wish I had never read it. In fact, I wish that matters like these had never made it into the press. Yes, those fueling the debate in this thread have the truth of the matter -- AIDS really is far more prevalent among homosexual males than any other population because of the nature of anal sex, and it really is a very small risk as far as trad heterosexual sex is concerned -- but what does this really matter? Where there's an open channel to the bloodstream, there is a risk of AIDS. It's remarkably non-discriminatory in this respect, and the incidence of HIV+ status in Africa is a testament to that. It's a horrible blight, and still a sad social stigma upon those infected.

More importantly, I cringe at seeing these sorts of personal details about Robbie Alomar's life exposed to the public. Is he gay or bi? THAT'S HIS BUSINESS AND NOBODY ELSE'S. Was he (egads) really raped and infected as a teenager? Then even moreso, I feel dirty having read about this without his consent. Either way, everybody loses in this matter: Alomar is degraded by having these issues made public, the woman may well have a legitimate grievance fit for legal adjudication, and the rest of us play the role of unwitting voyeurs.

I wish I could take a shower.
   145. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:40 PM (#3074574)
It gets worse when you find out that they use desiccants to dry it out beforehand.

Please, please stop. I just...words fail me.


So, are the desiccants considered foreplay?
   146. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:41 PM (#3074577)
Apparently, Padres second basemen coming up in the 1980s missed out on the AIDS awareness classes..How coincidental, if true, that the two most prominent baseball players with AIDS played the same position for the same team only a few years apart.

At least Bip Roberts has been getting the treatment. He looks pretty healthy on tv during Giants pregame.
   147. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:45 PM (#3074581)
Well, if you're going to name yourself after a disease, you deserve to get it. (I'm looking at you, Gehrig!)

So, Epstein Barr's parents were too lethargic to come up with a good name. Why should he be punished for that?
   148. bunyon Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:46 PM (#3074582)
I wish I could take a shower.

Something wrong with your plumbing?


Seriously, you're right, of course.
   149. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:49 PM (#3074586)
You don't get it? It's obviously tied up with Islam's fanatical freakish phobia over female sexual pleasure. It's meant to prevent women from enjoying it.
   150. RJ in TO Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:51 PM (#3074587)
You don't get it? It's obviously tied up with Islam's fanatical freakish phobia over female sexual pleasure. It's meant to prevent women from enjoying it.


Are you trying to start a flame war? Because, if so, that comment looks like a winner.
   151. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:52 PM (#3074588)
According to the lawsuit, Alomar began taking steroids in 2005.

STERIODS!!!
   152. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:54 PM (#3074594)
Ryan,
Nothing in particular against Islam...the same misogynistic distaste for female sexual pleasure can be found in religions the world over, from Catholicism (NO BIRTH CONTROL!!!!!!!!!) to Orthodox Judaism to those folks that perform female genital mutilation.
   153. Hack Wilson Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:54 PM (#3074595)
Well, if you're going to name yourself after a disease, you deserve to get it.

Foote and Mouth Disease?

I get Barry Foote but who is Mouth?
   154. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:55 PM (#3074597)
You don't get it? It's obviously tied up with Islam's fanatical freakish phobia over female sexual pleasure. It's meant to prevent women from enjoying it.


Women enjoy sex? I think not--not if I have anything to say, or do, about it.
   155. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:56 PM (#3074598)
Why is the part about the rape even in there. What friggin lawyer wrote this lawsuit? That's a disgrace. An absolutel disgrace. The rape story has nothing NOTHING whatever to do with the complaint.
   156. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:56 PM (#3074599)
You don't get it? It's obviously tied up with Islam's fanatical freakish phobia over female sexual pleasure. It's meant to prevent women from enjoying it.
Islamic attitudes towards women may play a role, but it would be wrong to discount the role of traditional African tribal male/female power relationships and attitudes towards sex. But yes, you're right: the preference for desiccants is generally connected directly to a power-relationship desire to deny female pleasure in the act of sex. This is also where the concept of female circumcision comes from.

I remember in high school where, as part of our IB English program, we had to read Ngugi's The River Between, with its primary focus on female circumcision. Maybe I was just a squish back then, but I couldn't get through it without feeling so revolted that I wanted to cry. To this day I think it's so barbaric that I can't even speak or write about the subject without getting actively angry (and damn near hysterical). I mean, dear god, who would come up with a religious practice whose SOLE PURPOSE was to deny women pleasure during sex? To make it PAINFUL for them? What kinds of sick bastards come up with this idea, and then work insidiously to sanctify it with the cloak of religious respectability? Jesus, maybe the radical feminists were right...men really are pigs.

I thought it back then, I still think it now.
   157. Traderdave Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:57 PM (#3074601)
If true about Alomar, are he & Wiggins the only 2 MLBers known to have contracted HIV? Considering players' notoriety for skirt chasing etc, it seems intuitive that more than just these 2 would have been so unlucky.
   158. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 06:59 PM (#3074604)
Holy crap, you gotta read this thing. This woman's lawyer writes like a 12 year old. WTF? Look at this laugher:

"In April or May of 2005, the doctor again advised the defendant to have an HIV test performed, which stands for Human Immune virus."

First of all, they misidenitifed the name of the disease (Human Immunodeficiency Virus); second, the subordinate clause is an adjectival clause modifying HIV, but it is misplaced after the verb performed.
   159. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:00 PM (#3074606)
So, are the desiccants considered foreplay?


There is a "Howard Carter had an Oedipus Complex" joke to be made here somewhere but damned if I know what it is.

Best Regards

John
   160. E., Hinske Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:05 PM (#3074610)
When I get up in the morning, I sometimes think to myself "What will I learn today?"

The use of dessicants in Africa was not on that list.
   161. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:08 PM (#3074615)
You don't get it? It's obviously tied up with Islam's fanatical freakish phobia over female sexual pleasure. It's meant to prevent women from enjoying it.

But, it's really bad for the men too, I assume.
   162. Dan The Mediocre Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:13 PM (#3074620)
When I get up in the morning, I sometimes think to myself "What will I learn today?"

The use of dessicants in Africa was not on that list.


I'm just full of random knowledge.

The point of the desiccants (so they say) is that males feel it more. Personally, I can't say I'd want to use sandpaper on myself, but I guess some people like that feeling.
   163. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:13 PM (#3074621)
After reading this lawsuit, I no longer have respect for the legal profession. "Upon learning the defendant was HIV positive, the patient was deeply upset, shocked, dismayed, extremely depressed, and was suffering extreme distress after she was advised that the defendant, ROBERT ALOMAR, was HIV positive."

There are so many things wrong with this sentence I don't know where to start. Wow, she was deeply upset AND dismayed! Was she "suffering extreme distress" before she was "extremely depressed," because that's what the tenses seem to indicate. I also like how the sentence starts with "Upon learning the defendant was HIV positive" and ends with "after she was advised that the defendant was HIV positive," in case we forgot the prepositional phrase the first time!
   164. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:14 PM (#3074623)
Nothing in particular against Islam...the same misogynistic distaste for female sexual pleasure can be found in religions the world over, from Catholicism (NO BIRTH CONTROL!!!!!!!!!) to Orthodox Judaism to those folks that perform female genital mutilation.

To compare the Catholic stance on contraception to these other things is just absurd.

If you were to check out modern Catholic writings, they are very positive about marital sex. John Paul II (before he was Pope) actually wrote a book in which he stated that it was a husband's duty to see to his wife's pleasure during sex.
   165. Tom Nawrocki Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:15 PM (#3074625)
If true about Alomar, are he & Wiggins the only 2 MLBers known to have contracted HIV? Considering players' notoriety for skirt chasing etc, it seems intuitive that more than just these 2 would have been so unlucky.

Glenn Burke died after contracting AIDS. I thought I heard that Eric Show had AIDS too, but I can't confirm that.
   166. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:15 PM (#3074626)
#163

And I thought Lionel Hutz was just a caricature!
   167. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:17 PM (#3074627)
Oh my god, this lawyer should go to jail.

She is actually saying that children were exposed to HIV because they hug and kiss Roberto Alomar!
   168. Dan The Mediocre Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:17 PM (#3074628)
If you were to check out modern Catholic writings, they are very positive about marital sex. John Paul II (before he was Pope) actually wrote a book in which he stated that it was a husband's duty to see to his wife's pleasure during sex.


Many Catholic writers over time have said that sex during marriage is inherently sinful, and that pleasure during sex is sinful. Modern Catholicism is much better about marital sex, but the writings of people like Augustine of Hippo still leave their mark on the church.
   169. bfan Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:17 PM (#3074629)
"John Paul II (before he was Pope) actually wrote a book in which he stated that it was a husband's duty to see to his wife's pleasure during sex."

By providing her with good reading material or a clear view to the flat-screen TV?
   170. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:18 PM (#3074630)
If you were to check out modern Catholic writings, they are very positive about marital sex. John Paul II (before he was Pope) actually wrote a book in which he stated that it was a husband's duty to see to his wife's pleasure during sex.

That settles it. I'm staying Lutheran.
   171. philphan Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:18 PM (#3074631)
Well, a long-time lurker like myself should know better than to even enter a fray like this one, but how many times at BTF does the topic ever move to something on which I actually know a few things?

Dry sex is a traditional practice currently found (mostly) in Africa of using herbs, leaves, or even household detergent to minimize a woman's vaginal secretions. Like many traditional behaviors in Africa, it probably predates Islam, and is not practiced exclusively by Muslims. And its main purpose was most likely _not_ to reduce women's sexual pleasure, but to maximize _men's_ sexual enjoyment. (I know, I know--YMMV on that one.)

It has been hypothesized that the dry sex might increase the risk of HIV transmission, because the lack of lubrication causes lacerations in the vaginal tissue, which would afford HIV multiple entry points. The real-world evidence for this is pretty spotty, though (it would be a very difficult association to prove). It may be that men who prefer dry sex also are more likely to avoid condoms; a study conducted a few years ago showed that a decline in HIV prevalence in Zambia occurred at the same time as a general decrease in reported risk behavior (including a decrease in reported practice of dry sex). However, I believe that I have read that if dry sex produces a greater risk of HIV transmission, that elevaton in risk would be more for the woman than for the man.

I know this is totally irrelevant to Robbie Alomar, but the topics came up in the thread, so I thought I would chime in. By the time I have finished this message and posted it, who knows what direction this thread may have gone in?

OK, back to work/lurk.
   172. RJ in TO Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:20 PM (#3074633)
John Paul II (before he was Pope) actually wrote a book in which he stated that it was a husband's duty to see to his wife's pleasure during sex.

By providing her with good reading material or a clear view to the flat-screen TV?


Holy crap, you just won the thread.
   173. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:21 PM (#3074634)
I think there has yet to be a topic discussed on BBTF in which one of the primates wasn't an expert. And I don't mean a Cliff Clavin-type expert, but someone with actual knowledge. It's pretty exceptional, I think.
   174. RJ in TO Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:22 PM (#3074638)
I think there has yet to be a topic discussed on BBTF in which one of the primates wasn't an expert. And I don't mean a Cliff Clavin-type expert, but someone with actual knowledge. It's pretty exceptional, I think.


Really? I think it just shows that a lot of us here have ###### up hobbies.
   175. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:23 PM (#3074641)
Many Catholic writers over time have said that sex during marriage is inherently sinful, and that pleasure during sex is sinful. Modern Catholicism is much better about marital sex, but the writings of people like Augustine of Hippo still leave their mark on the church.

Correct. This was individual theologians, and never doctrine of the Church, but it certainly had its influence, even more so on your more "puritanical" Protestant groups than Catholics.

The Catholic position on sex and marriage is very consistent but very nuanced, and needs to be taken in its totality. It requires a great deal of study to fully understand, and has often been badly explained. e.g., you can't analyze the no contraception doctrine in isolation from the no pre-marital sex doctrine.
   176. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:24 PM (#3074643)
Really? I think it just shows that a lot of us here have ###### up hobbies.

Well, birds of a feather and all that.
   177. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:29 PM (#3074650)
I think there has yet to be a topic discussed on BBTF in which one of the primates wasn't an expert. And I don't mean a Cliff Clavin-type expert, but someone with actual knowledge. It's pretty exceptional, I think.
It's rather amazing, the number of Primates who can claim expertise in some esoteric field. And I'm not talking about, say, "rock music" or something like that (though lord knows I know that stuff). I'm talking about something like Indo-European language change...a subject I keep conspicuously dropping around here like a $20 bill in the street in the hopes that someone will want to talk about it.
   178. FBI Regional Bureau Chief GORDON COLE!!! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:32 PM (#3074653)
It's obviously tied up with Islam's fanatical freakish phobia over female sexual pleasure. It's meant to prevent women from enjoying it.

Yeah, but the MEN'S subjecting themselves to that, uh, dryness points to some fanatical devotion on their part to the cause of denying women pleasure. Gadzooks.
   179. FBI Regional Bureau Chief GORDON COLE!!! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:34 PM (#3074654)
not if I have anything to say, or do, about it.

Yeah, that's what I hear.
   180. Sexy Lizard Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:34 PM (#3074655)
FWIW, Augustine has always been the most powerful of the Fathers of the Church in his influence, but his major conclusions are far less often accepted doctrine than people think. For example, he was far more of a predestinarian than the Church itself (he inspired both Luther and Calvin in this way). If you're looking for someone to blame for the persistent thread in Christianity that thinks sex is dirty, you really don't have to look any farther than Paul, and he's not property of the Catholics any more than anyone else.
   181. RJ in TO Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:34 PM (#3074657)
I'm talking about something like Indo-European language change...a subject I keep conspicuously dropping around here like a $20 bill in the street in the hopes that someone will want to talk about it.


While not an expert in that field, I'd still be interested in trying to discuss it - my interests in terms of language lean more toward the impact of language on the shaping of thought among the users of that language, and the development of technical dialects and their impact on the transfer of knowledge between technical disciplines.
   182. FBI Regional Bureau Chief GORDON COLE!!! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:41 PM (#3074666)
It's rather amazing, the number of Primates who can claim expertise in some esoteric field.

Given your handle, I'd expect nothing less of you.
   183. philphan Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:46 PM (#3074673)
Yeah, but the MEN'S subjecting themselves to that, uh, dryness points to some fanatical devotion on their part to the cause of denying women pleasure. Gadzooks.


OK, looks like the topic is about to move on to Augustine's take on Indo-European language change during marital sex, but to the point above, well, who knows what's going on inside other people's heads? (Especially when it comes to sex.) But the belief in the field is that men who practice it do so because they find dry sex more pleasurable: Instead of "dry", think "tight". It's the women who use the herbs or leaves or chemical, and they generally say they do it because their partner prefers it that way. (Though many women will also say that they think sex is neater and cleaner that way as well.)
   184. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:54 PM (#3074682)
Good point. I was going to ask, is the point to have a dry vagina or a merely drier vagina?
   185. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 07:57 PM (#3074686)
Early Christian and Patristic writers were by far the Christian writers and exegetes most devoted to an ascetic program that valued celibacy over chastity and that wholeheartedly endorsed the idea of imitatio christi (being like Christ through suffering and self-denial). The problem is that the Bible itself is not a particularly ascetic document (lots of sex in there, plus the whole be fruitful and multiply thing). So defending asceticism with scripture required sophisticated exegesis and interpretation...if not outright addition. I think it was a 5th century writer who "added" a few new lines to Pual's beatitudes like "Blessed are the virgins; Blessed are those who keep the flesh pure; Blessed is he who treats his wife not as a wife," etc.

The asceticism of the early churh and of late antiquity definitely influenced Roman Catholicism, especially the medieval Church. Monastic culture enjoyed its most widespread success in the medieval Catholic west, for instance, and celibacy continued to be viewed as a higher calling for women than mere marital chastity. Following a tenant that was "optional" (celibacy) rather than "required" (no extramarital sex) was thought to make you a "better" Christian.

Although we think of the Protestant Reformation as being run by joyless Puritans, one of the first things that happened when the Reformation took hold in England in the 1530s was the dissolution of the monateries, and the marrying off of nuns, monks, and priests (along with, more importantly, the seizure of lands and funds). Mainstream protestants of the early 16th century generally had a more permissive view of sexuality, at least within the confines of marraige, and they rejected celibacy and monasticism as presumptuous and quasi-idolatrous. The "asceticism" of radical Puritans in the 16th century is something very different from Catholic asceticism, although there are points of contact (the value of self-flagellation, abstemiousness, etc.).
   186. Obama Bomaye Posted: February 11, 2009 at 08:05 PM (#3074693)
It's obviously tied up with Islam's fanatical freakish phobia over female sexual pleasure.

Most of sub-Saharan Africa is not Muslim.
   187. Dan The Mediocre Posted: February 11, 2009 at 08:08 PM (#3074698)
along with, more importantly, the seizure of lands and funds


More important to Henry VIII, anyway.

FWIW, Augustine has always been the most powerful of the Fathers of the Church in his influence, but his major conclusions are far less often accepted doctrine than people think.


He had powerful influence on many popes even if a lot of things he wrote about were only temporarily part of the Papal policies (I separate that from doctrine in that doctrine lasts centuries, but policies change when popes do). There were popes who engaged in warfare and actively asserted the superiority of celibacy for all (not sure how well you can link the celibacy of priests to Augustine's writings). JC would be a good person to talk about on this, because I'm sure he knows far more than I do.
   188. Walt Davis Posted: February 11, 2009 at 08:19 PM (#3074709)
God wants us all to be lesbians.

Could be worse.

I heard that A-Rod hires illegal immigrants to choke him in the shower.

As long as he's current with their payroll tax, this is OK.
   189. The Good Face Posted: February 11, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3074715)
my interests in terms of language lean more toward the impact of language on the shaping of thought among the users of that language


Sapir-Whorf hypothesis hijack time! I lean against it's validity, but somebody who knows more than me tell me why I'm wrong, go go!
   190. Shredder Posted: February 11, 2009 at 08:32 PM (#3074724)
Well, if you're going to name yourself after a disease, you deserve to get it. (I'm looking at you, Gehrig!)


Dr. Hibbert: You have an absolutely unique genetic condition known as "Homer Simpson" syndrome.

Homer Simpson: Oh, why me?!
   191. AJMcCringleberry Posted: February 11, 2009 at 08:37 PM (#3074729)
Scotto, sorry to hear about your brother.

second, the subordinate clause is an adjectival clause modifying HIV, but it is misplaced after the verb performed.

I don't understand a word of this. Is it some incomprehensible dead language, like French?
   192. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: February 11, 2009 at 08:44 PM (#3074735)
Sapir-Whorf hypothesis hijack time! I lean against it's validity, but somebody who knows more than me tell me why I'm wrong, go go!
No no no no! Theories of linguistic performance are BORING! BORING I tell you! The actual alteration of language, the relationships between families, the shared structures: THIS is what's fascinating! This is where there's REAL archaeology to be done! This is the real detective & discovery work! Your Sapir-Whorf/Chomskyian grammer crap is mere idle speculation! FIE UPON YE AND BAH!

(Seriously though, reconstructive grammar is like assembling a jigsaw puzzle without the box to look at, and missing several pieces, yet with the understanding that if you can put enough of them together you can reveal a stunning secret picture. You wouldn't BELIEVE what our language tells us about what our forefathers believed and emphasized in their lives...evidence that is otherwise inaccessible through any historical record or archaeological dig.)
   193. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 11, 2009 at 08:55 PM (#3074747)
Epstein Barr's parents were too lethargic to come up with a good name.

Epstein and Barr are two different people. And there's no disease named after them.
   194. bads85 Posted: February 11, 2009 at 08:55 PM (#3074748)
That's it, I'm out.


A linguistics discussion fells another one.
   195. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 11, 2009 at 09:00 PM (#3074759)
The only linguistic theories I could ever stand were the people who looked at language in its social contexts like Bourdieu and Voloshinov. These people wren't really linguists...more like social theorists, but their work always seemed so much more relvant than Chomskyan platonisms.
   196. scotto Posted: February 11, 2009 at 09:00 PM (#3074760)
Thanks AJM. It's a long sad story that I'll eschew sharing. I'll say this, though; my father is one amazing man. 20 years ago I never would have acknowledged that, which just goes to show that youth is sometimes callow. At least, I was, and largely remain.
   197. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 09:01 PM (#3074763)
Nothing in particular against Islam...the same misogynistic distaste for female sexual pleasure can be found in religions the world over, from Catholicism (NO BIRTH CONTROL!!!!!!!!!) to Orthodox Judaism to those folks that perform female genital mutilation.
Hint: you don't know anything about Orthodox Judaism if you think that. Judaism certainly doesn't endorse casual, nonmarital sex, but it doesn't have the same sexual hangups that Christianity does. Sex (within marriage) is supposed to be frequent and pleasurable.
   198. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: February 11, 2009 at 09:01 PM (#3074765)
Well, Chomskyan linguistics may not be that useful in the cultural human sense, but it's contributed a hell of a lot to mathematics.
   199. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 09:07 PM (#3074775)
Sex (within marriage) is supposed to be frequent and pleasurable.

David,

Catholicism teaches the same thing. It just not been communicated real well over the years.
   200. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 11, 2009 at 09:14 PM (#3074787)
Catholicism teaches the same thing. It just not been communicated real well over the years.
Fair enough; I don't pay much attention to what they think -- except what they think about people like me -- so if there are nuances I've missed, so be it. But do Catholics believe that it's the duty of a husband to give a wife sexual pleasure? That sex is not just for procreation, but for the purpose of bringing husband and wife together? Given the Catholic view of contraception, I assume not, but those are part of Orthodox Judaism.


Also, I generally agree with Sapir-Whorf.
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