Beamer and Snyder are not even close to Paterno's stature in their respective universities or communities. I would venture to guess that the only coaches who came close to Paterno were Bear Bryant and Adolph Rupp in terms of influence over the culture of a university.

I agree, but that wasn't the question posed. It was "who are lifers at one school in college football anymore?"

Wait, someone mentioned that up thread, is the latter part actually true?

According to the New York Times a day or two ago, yes

Based on Bill James' opinions on this Penn State thing, I'm going to assume that everything he said in the Abstracts must have also been completely wrong.

It just goes down as yet another example of what happens when you get someone trying to comment out of his area of expertise.

This was in response to my suggestion that the football program be shutdown. Really, Bernal, you are an example of exactly what allowed this to happen in the first place. The football program isn't the baby, it is the bathwater.

No. It is the inbred culture that Penn State allowed Joe Paterno to cultivate by not putting him out to pasture 20 years ago.

Vlad, why are you still clinging to this belief that the BoT was a group of guys that watching practices and sitting in on classes? It's unlikely they knew about any of this. It's just not something a BoT would know about unless somebody specifically brought it to their attention, which based on the grand jury testimony, it was not.

Beamer was at a few different schools before coming to VaTech.

So they decided to prioritize stickin' it to Joe over their own best interest. That's their call, I guess, and I'm certainly not going to complain about the results.

No; the point is that Paterno had the chance to resign immediately rather than be fired.

I imagine (I'm not certain) that the Board might have even explicitly given Paterno the chance to resign before they fired him. That seems to be the way these things are done. "Look, we're going to fire you; you might want to resign beforehand." But he came out with his silly statement about resigning at the end of the year, and in so doing he took that opportunity away from them.

If Paterno wasn't an arrogant SOB he would have resigned. But if he wasn't an arrogant SOB he wouldn't be the winningist all time football coache.

Beamer and Snyder are not even close to Paterno's stature in their respective universities or communities. I would venture to guess that the only coaches who came close to Paterno were Bear Bryant and Adolph Rupp in terms of influence over the culture of a university.

Paterno is certainly top of the heap but my original question had to do with long-term coaches. Snyder is close, but he retired once already, so I don't really count him. Beamer is another. But in today's high-pressure world, is there any new football coach at the I-A level who could survive 20 years in the same position?

Ryan, I asked the same up list, but don't see an answer. I suspect he hasn't a clear idea of what a university-system BoT actually does.

But in today's high-pressure world, is there any new football coach at the I-A level who could survive 20 years in the same position?

Pat Fitzgerald.

Wow, that Gricar case is just plain weird.

It's interesting to note that Gricar moved to the area around 1980 because his then wife took a job at Penn State, though they were divorced by the time of the '98 investigation and it's not clear whether she was still employed at the University then.

And understandably so, since Paterno had, not long before, had to use his pull to get a kiddie sex beef Sandusky was admittedly guilty of quashed by the DA.(**) Probably didn't make him real happy.

I don't know much about Mark Madden beyond what I just read about him on wikipedia -- but considering this guy wrote a column back this past spring which got either ignored or trashed and now looks eerily prescient... He claims two big rumors soon to break into "stories":

- That oddly to-this-point merely suspicious circumstances around the then 55-yo Sandusky "retiring" in 1999, but not really being sniffed for any other jobs was a last straw coverup and pay-off, and knowledge of it might reach beyond PSU.

- That Second Mile had an even uglier role - if you can believe that - in essentially being a high priced molester procurement service.

Like I said, don't know much about Madden -- for all I know he's an idiot who just happened to find his one blind nut back in April...

But...

I don;t see Ferentz going anywhere soon either. Nor Mike Gundy. Chris Petersen either.

- That Second Mile had an even uglier role - if you can believe that - in essentially being a high priced molester procurement service.

If this is true, then, gentlemen, the pitchforks are on me if you supply the torches. But I'll only believe this when I see the proof. That is just too beyond the pale to even contemplate.

Beamer and Snyder are not even close to Paterno's stature in their respective universities or communities. I would venture to guess that the only coaches who came close to Paterno were Bear Bryant and Adolph Rupp in terms of influence over the culture of a university.


Schembechler had some serious statute at Michigan. The contrast between Schembechler and Paterno is pretty telling - while Schembechler still held the power in the athletic department until he passed away, he increasingly receded from a public role, particularly when that role led him into conflict with the main administration. Nevertheless, it really was Schembechler's program until his death, and Lloyd Carr was his agent.

But in today's high-pressure world, is there any new football coach at the I-A level who could survive 20 years in the same position?

Pat Fitzgerald.

Was gonna say Pat, too.

He was a part of the program resurgence (or surgence, if you consider things before the TV age as not counting), he came back to the alma mater for his first gig, he's been at least competitive, and as an alum (actually, just a few years behind him) -- I can tell you that absent a scandal such as this, the only way he'll be leaving is if he chooses to leave... and every ounce of every statement he's ever made says he wants to be a lifer.

In fact, sadly enough -- and let's hope he doesn't use the comparison again -- he said not more than a year or two back that his goal is retire a long time from now as NU's Joe Paterno.

No; the point is that Paterno had the chance to resign immediately rather than be fired.

Again, so what? If he wanted to retire at the end of the year, rather than immediately, then it was still in their personal best interest to grit their teeth and accept that. If they decided to disadvantage themselves in order to spite him, that's certainly no skin off my nose, though it is surprising.

Vlad, why are you still clinging to this belief that the BoT was a group of guys that watching practices and sitting in on classes? It's unlikely they knew about any of this.

Where did I say that they're watching practices and sitting in on classes?

I said that they knew (or at best, should have known) more than a lot of people in this thread seem to want to believe, for whatever reason. See post# 2483. It's simply not plausible to try and claim that a guy like Paul Suhey would not have known (or at least suspected) about Sandusky. Not to mention the fact that the board's well-publicized 2004 attempt to push Paterno into retirement belies every claim that they aren't active enough or interested enough to follow and interfere on football-related matters.

Like I said, don't know much about Madden -- for all I know he's an idiot who just happened to find his one blind nut back in April...

He's a loud-mouthed moron who plays to the talk radio crowd. Once in a very great while, though, he serves a legitimately useful role as that one guy who says things that nobody else is willing to say, even though they should. Looks like this is one of those times.

I don;t see Ferentz going anywhere soon either. Nor Mike Gundy. Chris Petersen either.

Ferentz could bolt for an NFL job - there are already rumors he could be the next Chiefs coach. Petersen could take a job at a bigger program. Gundy - don't know. His success is brand new and he's a young guy and I don't know him real well. He could be a lifer with Boone Pickens' money.

I can see Bob Stoops being a lifer at OU if he doesn't bolt for the NFL ever. I thought Tressel was going to be a lifer...but....yea.

People interested in Madden's current take on the situation may want to listen to this.

Barry Alvarez didn't have the head coach tenure, but I'd say he's sort of a K-Mart Schembechler at Madison.

Three PSU players, including a starting middle LB suspended in 2005 for making a long series of prank calls to a "retired member of the Penn State football family."

Three PSU players, including a starting middle LB suspended for making a long series of prank calls to a "retired member of the Penn State football family."

Hmm. You think Sandusky was the prank-ee?

Interesting.

Vlad

People who get on boards get there partially on their ability to avoid career hazards by maintaining plausible ignorance on various topics. Which means not only knowing what questions to ask but also what NOT to ask.

examples of this are numerous in business. Large universities are no different no matter the claims to the contrary in this thread.

There's a pretty sizable difference from knowing that an 80 year old man who "coached" the team to a 4-7 record and hadn't won a conference title in 10 years needs to go compared to knowing his ex-assistant is sneaking around campus molesting children.

Again, so what? If he wanted to retire at the end of the year, rather than immediately, then it was still in their personal best interest to grit their teeth and accept that.

Vlad, you've lost your marbles, not on the way Bill James and Pos have, thank god, but you are making no sense one way or the other, but you have inadvertently made some of the best arguments for canning JoePa immediately, not that you are aware of it.

With respect to some victims/family members of victims not wanting JoePa fired, it reminds me of a story from Brooklyn a year ago or so- a teacher at a private (Hassidic) school was evidently a serial molester, the principal- a very influential Rabbi in that particular sect covered it up- he literally said there was no abuse without penetration... well eventually one family got fed up and went to the police- well one result was when that family's name became known they were ostracised from the community- we are talking people whose whole loves revolve around that particular community...

The idea that Sandusky's victims and their families have to now be worried about being blamed (by some very irrational and amoral people in their tightknit community) for JoePa's downfall is sickening- but by no means negates the fact that canning Joe Pa's ass was the right thing to do.

I said that they knew (or at best, should have known) more than a lot of people in this thread seem to want to believe, for whatever reason. See post# 2483. It's simply not plausible to try and claim that a guy like Paul Suhey would not have known (or at least suspected) about Sandusky. Not to mention the fact that the board's well-publicized 2004 attempt to push Paterno into retirement belies every claim that they aren't active enough or interested enough to follow and interfere on football-related matters.

I suspect it this is going to hinge upon what we find out about Sandusky prior his "retirement" and circumstances around it... at this point - if this moves from the stupid "in hindsight" to a coverup spanning back to the 90s (or maybe further), you figure that someone on the BoT would have HAD to know something to approve what was in all likelihood, a pretty generous retirement package for an assistant coach.

Personally -- if I were an enterprising journalist, I think I'd be looking to get the timeline on any unexpected BoT 'retirements' or departures from the late 90s/early 00s period.... and then want to talk to such a person -- you wouldn't get anything, I suspect (given culpability and whatnot), but seems to me that this is the best route to a potential deepthroat if there are more beans to be spilled.

I could absolutely believe the entire BoT wasn't aware -- but if you need to get a rather extraordinary package through to oust an assistant (and finances aside, Sandusky apparently had run of the campus and was able to pretty much use it for the Second Mile as he saw fit), you probably just need one or two active trustees to ram through an OK.

Presumably, if an assistant who, to the outside eye, seems perfectly capable of getting another job suddenly needs a bunch of perks and University access simply to walk away at age 55 -- the BoT has some role in OK'ing that.

A university board of trustees isn't like a corporate board of directors -- these are generally people with a personal stake in the University who, granted, may not be doing much day to day -- but you have to believe someone on the BoT would need to have a bit more than just a "because I said so" when a relatively storied assistant coach with 30 years on the staff is being forced out in his mid 50s, but getting an office, emeritus title, etc.

People who get on boards get there partially on their ability to avoid career hazards by maintaining plausible ignorance on various topics. Which means not only knowing what questions to ask but also what NOT to ask.

I have no doubt that members of the board may have gone to some effort to not officially "know" about Sandusky's problem. It doesn't really improve their moral standing in my book.

There's a pretty sizable difference from knowing that an 80 year old man who "coached" the team to a 4-7 record and hadn't won a conference title in 10 years needs to go compared to knowing his ex-assistant is sneaking around campus molesting children.

But no difference as far as a willingness to act on knowledge is concerned. If they were willing to try and push him out on the (incorrect) suspicion that Paterno's winning days were behind him, then there's certainly no excuse for them letting the situation with Sandusky fester behind closed doors.

If they were willing to try and push him out on the (incorrect) suspicion that Paterno's winning days were behind him, then there's certainly no excuse for them letting the situation with Sandusky fester behind closed doors.

FFS, I JUST SAID THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT SANDUSKY

Vlad, you've lost your marbles, not on the way Bill James and Pos have, thank god, but you are making no sense one way or the other, but you have inadvertently made some of the best arguments for canning JoePa immediately, not that you are aware of it.

Let me clarify, once again, what I am saying, since some of you still apparently don't get it. I'm not saying that it was unjust or morally wrong for the board to can Paterno. I'm saying that it's surprising that they would elect to do so, since doing so greatly increases the chance of their own culpability in the situation being exposed and splattered across the front page. Most people have a better sense of self preservation than that.

I could absolutely believe the entire BoT wasn't aware -- but if you need to get a rather extraordinary package through to oust an assistant (and finances aside, Sandusky apparently had run of the campus and was able to pretty much use it for the Second Mile as he saw fit), you probably just need one or two active trustees to ram through an OK.

Agree. There may have been a couple of space cadets on the board who just approved stuff without thinking about it, but there's no way that everybody at that table was as pure as the driven snow.

examples of this are numerous in business. Large universities are no different no matter the claims to the contrary in this thread.

People who get on boards get there partially on their ability to avoid career hazards by maintaining plausible ignorance on various topics. Which means not only knowing what questions to ask but also what NOT to ask.

examples of this are numerous in business. Large universities are no different no matter the claims to the contrary in this thread.

But wouldn't the difference here be that a University trustee doing the gig not so much for career advancement or the paycheck -- but because they have a degree of involvement and desire to be involved that wouldn't quite exist in the corporate world? I'm not saying day-to-day ops -- but if I'm an alum of my beloved and rich/powerful enough to BE on the BoT, I would think I'd be doing it with the idea that that I'm going to have the inside skinny - and WANT to have some that inside skinny - on an awful lot.

Due to some relatively more mundane circumstances (silly frat stuff) - I was part of a small group pleading a case for some powerbroker help in college and approached a couple of trustees... two never returned calls, but one was willing to be of minor assistance after delivering a rather stern lecture about the importance of being credits to the U family, yada yada... Our circumstance didn't involve anything of a criminal nature (well, significantly criminal... I mean - we're talking 20 yo having a keg they shouldn't have had) and it's not like we had some grand champion in our corner, but it WAS a situation where little more than a few words to the right administrators went a long way.

FFS, I JUST SAID THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT SANDUSKY

Yeah, but you're wrong about that. It's just not plausible.

Listen to the Madden link I posted upthread. Even though State College is pretty big, it's the prototypical small town in a lot of ways. Everybody knows about everyone else's problems, and everybody keeps their mouths shut about them when communicating with the outside world.

zonk

Nah. It's a line on the resume and a chance to be told I am a wonderful person.

I don't find Sandusky hanging around itself suspicious. You will see all around the country assistant coaches or fired ex-head coaches with offices and parking places on campus still. He was an employee for thirty years - which is retirement age in government work. He was told that he wouldn't take over and apparently didn't take it well. So he walked away.

The real question is did anything the police know in 1998 make its way back up to the BoT at that time. Only that, plus the retirement, seems suspicious. No one thinks Urban Meyer is a pedophile for quitting when he did. But if there was a police report supposedly out there...

You have a well-liked charity that is seen as doing good as a cover. It's a brilliant cover. While this old guy with kids seems weird - it is also the old guy everyone likes, who adopted six kids, who seems to be doing a public good.

I can see people think "that's weird" and shaking it off.

I thought Tressel was going to be a lifer...but....yea.

Chances are he probably was a lifer.

Let me clarify, once again, what I am saying, since some of you still apparently don't get it. I'm not saying that it was unjust or morally wrong for the board to can Paterno. I'm saying that it's surprising that they would elect to do so, since doing so greatly increases the chance of their own culpability in the situation being exposed and splattered across the front page. Most people have a better sense of self preservation than that.

And we keep saying that firing Paterno now doesn't markedly change the "chance of their own culpability in the situation being exposed and splattered across the front page" at all.

Anyone who knew, hell, anyone who probably should have even suspected ... IS. GOING. DOWN.

Believe what you will, but I'll repeat it again: It's lawsuits, it's ALWAYS been lawsuits.

And I'd bet my life savings in Vegas that if you asked every, single, last member of the BoT under oath, they'd tell you they believe in their hearts that civil suits are a 100% certainty.

At a certain point, you might as well just do the right thing, even if that's years overdue. You're already ###### anyways, right?

Listen to the Madden link I posted upthread. Even though State College is pretty big, it's the prototypical small town in a lot of ways. Everybody knows about everyone else's problems, and everybody keeps their mouths shut about them when communicating with the outside world.

There is a poster in this thread and in the lounge who lives there and has for quite some time. Do you think he knew?

And we keep saying that firing Paterno now doesn't markedly change the "chance of their own culpability in the situation being exposed and splattered across the front page" at all.

Yeah, well, you're wrong about that.

At a certain point, you might as well just do the right thing, even if that's years overdue. You're already ###### anyways, right?

The guilty members of the board don't think that they're ######. They think they can beat this, and they're going to fight like cornered rats.

Yeah, well, you're wrong about that.

Yes, *you* are.

There is a poster in this thread and in the lounge who lives there and has for quite some time. Do you think he knew?

Maybe?

I'd heard a few rumors over the years, and I live in Pittsburgh. Never actually believed they were true, of course.

zonk

Nah. It's a line on the resume and a chance to be told I am a wonderful person.

That may be the end of it for some - even most - but I highly suspect most college BoTs have at least a handful of trustees who still sing the arcane alma mater dirges at homecoming every year, have -- and use -- their choice parking spots on Saturday gamedays, and do take more than just a professional or passing interest in who gets the new Dean of the College of X job.... the resume and buttering up might be nice cake icing, but having also been tangentially involved in some university/university related fundraising drives -- it was usually a trustee who was or who was the key link in accessing a big checkbook.

Vlad, I saw someone say that the Pirates aren't spending any money in another thread. You better leave here and go find them.

I don't know why, but the image of BA Baracus in a lawyerly 3 piece suit giving himself a dramatic facepalm is giving me the chuckles.

Brilliant. Name change, if I can get a variation to fit.

Yes, *you* are.

Not so much, no.

Vlad, I saw someone say that the Pirates aren't spending any money in another thread.

Good. They aren't spending any money this offseason. 2012's going to suck like an airplane toilet - the more people know in advance and complain, the better.

I'd heard a few rumors over the years, and I live in Pittsburgh. Never actually believed they were true, of course.

You heard rumors and did nothing? You are just as culpable then.

Not so much, no.

Well, you know, keep "plucking" that chicken, brah.

Eventually, someone's bound to show up and agree with you, right?

You heard rumors and did nothing? You are just as culpable then.

They're rumors - 99% are slanderous ########. Who would have thought that this one was any more true than the one about Cowher having an affair with Kordell's sister?

To be clear, the two rumors I'd heard (separately) were:

a) He was gay, and in the closet.
and
b) The administration made him quit because they found out he was having an affair with an underaged student (of unspecified gender).

a) wouldn't have been any big deal by itself, and b) is kind of icky but more of a moral gray area since there was no indication that it wasn't consensual, or that we were talking about a 10-year-old rather than a 17-year-old.

Neither really gives more than a glimpse of the true situation, but both are pretty creepy in retrospect. And if some random schlub like me half a day's drive away from the school with no real interest in college football heard them, how much talk was there at the main campus itself?

Based on Bill James' opinions on this Penn State thing, I'm going to assume that everything he said in the Abstracts must have also been completely wrong.

It just goes down as yet another example of what happens when you get someone trying to comment out of his area of expertise.

See: Noam Chomsky on global politics, Victoria Jackson on evolution.

Eventually, someone's bound to show up and agree with you, right?

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter, though - being right is its own reward.

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter, though - being right is its own reward.

Except you are not.

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter, though - being right is its own reward.

It must be something, being such a special snowflake ...

Vlad

So by what metric do you assess that you have been validated?

'x' number of the Board is forced out/resigns/quits by 'y' date?

So by what metric do you assess that you have been validated?

'x' number of the Board is forced out/resigns/quits by 'y' date?

There's no way to verify it one way or the other, unfortunately. We can't rewind the film and see what would've happened if the board had accepted Paterno's offer.

It must be something, being such a special snowflake ...

It doesn't suck.

Except you are not.

That is your opinion. (Which is wrong.)

Vlad

You have been discussing how the BOT will have to resign at some point by having dumped Paterno. If there is no change then that premise is flawed, no?

I'm not saying that it was unjust or morally wrong for the board to can Paterno. I'm saying that it's surprising that they would elect to do so, since doing so greatly increases the chance of their own culpability in the situation being exposed and splattered across the front page.

Aside from the fact that I think you're really obviously wrong, I fail to see why you keep making the same tiny point about these guys. Really, who gives a #### of the Board managed to take the best cover-your-ass position in firing Paterno? The only reason anybody argued with you in the first place is that it sounded for a minute like you were saying that Paterno *should* have been kept around. Now you're just insisting on a picayune and kind of stupid point over and over again. Let it go. It's getting old.

From the Richmond Times Dispatch on Dec. 29, 2000:

Sandusky had been tremendously impressive Dec. 20 during his initial on-campus interviews with U.Va. officials, including President John Casteen, the sources said, but they came away from Wednesday's visit concerned that his involvement with the Second Mile, the charitable organization he founded in 1982, might prevent him from making the necessary commitment to coaching.

I'm not seeing any other odd things mentioned in the papers regarding his pursuit of the UVa job in 2000 or the College Park Community College job in 1996.

You heard rumors and did nothing? You are just as culpable then.

They're rumors - 99% are slanderous ########. Who would have thought that this one was any more true than the one about Cowher having an affair with Kordell's sister?

I think your sarcasm detector has a hiccup

Let me clarify, once again, what I am saying, since some of you still apparently don't get it. I'm not saying that it was unjust or morally wrong for the board to can Paterno. I'm saying that it's surprising that they would elect to do so, since doing so greatly increases the chance of their own culpability in the situation being exposed and splattered across the front page. Most people have a better sense of self preservation than that.

I did get that, that's why I pointedly said you had not lost your moral sense the way James and Pos have, what I am saying is that your belief that firing Paterno now rather than waiting for him to retire has any significant impact, let alone a negative impact on the likelihood of board culpability coming to light and your claim that had they waited that would lessen tort suits versus the school, well that's just either wholly illogical or or logical inferences from severely flawed factual beliefs

Believe what you will, but I'll repeat it again: It's lawsuits, it's ALWAYS been lawsuits.

This is the really interesting part. Unless I missed something today, the investigating committee of the board is supposed to be empaneled tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if they hire someone who does internal investigation regularly, or if they just engage some PA political counsel.

I did get that, that's why I pointedly said you had not lost your moral sense the way James and Pos have, what I am saying is that your belief that firing Paterno now rather than waiting for him to retire has any significant impact, let alone a negative impact on the likelihood of board culpability coming to light and your claim that had they waited that would lessen tort suits versus the school, well that's just either wholly illogical or or logical inferences from severely flawed factual beliefs

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

I've been following it, but I'm not sure what the argument even is about the PSU BoT. If it's like the board at practically every other football factory, you have a mixture of corporatish heavyweights who may or may not care about football, sons and daughers of the local rich and connected who need something to do, various resume padders, and a subset of people whose primary, if not only, purpose is to get on to have some influence over football (and maybe other sports).

Which means you have some people who knew everything there is to know about l'affaire Sandusky (**) and some people who don't have a clue about it.

(**) Up to and including the Original Sin -- the deal with the DA not to press charges in exchange for retiring him and giving him what he wanted as part of the "retirement" package.

You have been discussing how the BOT will have to resign at some point by having dumped Paterno. If there is no change then that premise is flawed, no?

I said that they made it a lot harder on themselves than they needed to. They may or may not still get away with it - that's hard to say at this point. I don't think that they will, and I hope that they won't, but it's not out of the question.

I fail to see why you keep making the same tiny point about these guys.

Because for some reason people seem determined to misrepresent my position.

your claim that had they waited that would lessen tort suits versus the school

Wait, what? I didn't say that. Someone speculated that the victims would've wanted to see Paterno fired and that there would've been more suits if he hadn't been, and I provided a quote from an attorney advising some of the victims in which he expressed the opposite sentiment.

There are going to be a kajillion lawsuits flying around no matter what the board did/does. Nobody's going to forgive or forget a childhood ass-raping based on a shallow, facile gesture by a bunch of rich old farts with no moral compass.

Wait, what? I didn't say that.

yes you did:

You think there wouldn't be a slew of civil suits filed against PSU by the victims and their families if the BoT didn't fire Paterno last night and just let him coach out the rest of the season?


That's correct - I think there wouldn't be.

He was a part of the program resurgence (or surgence, if you consider things before the TV age as not counting), he came back to the alma mater for his first gig, he's been at least competitive, and as an alum (actually, just a few years behind him) -- I can tell you that absent a scandal such as this, the only way he'll be leaving is if he chooses to leave... and every ounce of every statement he's ever made says he wants to be a lifer.

Fitzgerald is still only 36, despite the fact that he's in his sixth season as head coach. And the culture at Northwestern is such that even if he takes a couple of 3-9 seasons, it's not going to be such a big deal. I'd put the over/under on his total seasons coaching there at about 25.

There are going to be a kajillion lawsuits flying around no matter what the board did/does.

see that make sense, and contradicts what you said earlier, so I;'m going t be nice and assume you are not insane, not a flip flopper (a "Romney") and merely misspoke earlier

Oh, for ####'s sake. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be lawsuits. I'm saying that there wouldn't be any more the one way than the other.

The football program isn't the baby, it is the bathwater.

"The football program" didn't try to excuse and ignore Jerry Sandusky's crimes. Individual human people did that. Acting as if the entire program is at fault minimizes the actions of people like McQueary, who really did help facilitate the coverup, and punishes people who had nothing to do with the Sandusky case.

see that make sense, and contradicts what you said earlier, so I;'m going t be nice and assume you are not insane, not a flip flopper (a "Romney") and merely misspoke earlier

CoB said that there would have been a bunch of new lawsuits if the board hadn't fired Paterno right away, and I said that there wouldn't. I didn't say that there would be any fewer lawsuits - just that there wouldn't be any more.

I think it's pretty obvious what I meant when you look at it within context, but if that clears everything up for people, then super.

Acting as if the entire program is at fault minimizes the actions of people like McQueary, who really did help facilitate the coverup, and punishes people who had nothing to do with the Sandusky case.

I dunno... I do think you are arguing against an extremist position, granted, but until someone stands up and says "Me, just me, I personally made the decision to let this guy who watched a kid get molested and not call the cops coach and get cheered by a whole stadium this coming weekend", I myself might hold the entire program at fault, yes. There is obviously a problem, stem to stern.

Are folks on the academic side of the university jealous of the folks who work for departments that actually bring money in to the university?

Individual human people did that.

Right, but it was the power and influence of the football program that allowed these individuals the power to engage in this kind of coverup. I'm coming around to the idea Penn State needs a one year time out to send a message to other University presidents and boards to rein their sports programs in. It's time for some soul searching.

So the dude selling programs on Saturday is at fault? The guy who fixes the elevator at Beaver Stadium? Do you have any idea how many people work in the Athletic Department at Penn State?

Did anyone ask Bradley during today's press conference what he knew about this whole mess from 1998-2011?

Not every university emphasizes athletics as much as Penn State. Hell not even all the Big Ten universities do.

They need to find out which coaches or school officials knew about the Sandusky situation, and fire them all. Somehow I think there's not enough time for that to happen before this precious Nebraska game on Saturday.

Like I said earlier, I would fire all the coaches, do a major rooting out of the SID office, the trainers, the custodial staff, the building staff and anyone who could have had direct knowledge of the allegations. Then get a bunch of outsiders in there.

If they need a training table chef I would listen.

I myself might hold the entire program at fault, yes. There is obviously a problem, stem to stern.

I'm sure there are kids on the Penn State football team who had no idea who Jerry Sandusky was until last week, other than that he was some old codger who hung around the facilities sometimes. I can understand the desire to give the program the SMU-style death penalty, but I'd make sure the players were at least given the chance to transfer with no other sanctions against them.

but I'd make sure the players were at least given the chance to transfer with no other sanctions against them.

Of course!

Fitzgerald is still only 36, despite the fact that he's in his sixth season as head coach. And the culture at Northwestern is such that even if he takes a couple of 3-9 seasons, it's not going to be such a big deal. I'd put the over/under on his total seasons coaching there at about 25.

The only thing that I might wonder about -- and I'm not saying I know/knew Fitz well -- is that he always seemed/seems extraordinarily motivated and driven.

NU's program has a couple of things working against it that make it nearly impossible to be a truly perennial powerhouse; to sort of turn into a big thing like happened at PSU where your goal is legitimately an undefeated national title team more often than not.

- The proximity to Chicago actually hurts a bit -- unlike a Happy Valley, an Ann Arbor, etc -- the 'Cats are ALWAYS going to be local second fiddle on the gridiron to the Bears. They could be in a national title hunt and the Bears muddling through a 6-10 season, and weekends will still always be Bears weekends

- The small student body (8K undergrad, with both the law and med grad schools downtown in Chicago rather than in Evanston) mean that the dreams of some 'Big House' with constant sellouts is a fool's errand. Ryan Field seats about 45K -- and even if Pat puts together a couple of back-to-back big 10 titles -- it's ALWAYS going to be a struggle to sell-out (or at least, sell-out where half the stadium isn't packed with traveling Husker, Badger, Buckeye, Wolverine, etc fans)

- While NU most certainly bends entrance criteria just like any other Div 1 program that likes to fancy itself as a bit holier than thou in the "student" part of student-athlete front, there are still plenty of big time players that have to be immediately crossed off any recruiting lists.

...in other words, while I have no doubt that Fitz could build a consistent winner that at least finds itself in the B1G10 champ conversation -- it's just never going to be one of those places where you're talked about in the national title hunt every year and you get to pick and choose recruits, rather than having to go out and work for them.

Let's say he puts in 10 years - wins a couple B1G10 titles, a few BCS bids, maybe even a top 5 finish or two - is he going to keep insisting to a Notre Dame or a USC or whatnot that he's not interested in going anywhere? I would hope so - but as a Cubs fan who was just tickled to have lifelong BoSox fan and curse breaker Theo come to town - I also understand that sometimes you want a new challenge or sometimes you want to be not just the guy in your hometown, but THE guy across the country.

Hey - maybe he looks at it from the perspective of doing what most say can't be done - again, I hope so... but I suspect even after last week's shocker against the Huskers, the stands might very well be only 2/3 full this weekend against Rice. At some point as a coach, that's just got to eat at you.

Of course... as someone whose undergrad years overlapped with Dennis Lundy, Dewey Williams, and Dion Lee -- it's not like a career killing scandal is exactly completely outside the realm of possibility, either.

Not to drag actual football into this, but this is quite the box score for Toledo.

Interesting posts from a message forum in September of 2010 after Sandusky resigned from Second Mile.

Quoting a sample of them now:

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I've read some scintillating rumors on other sites as to how this or some other rumor will practically destroy our football program. I don't understand what Jerry did or didn't do on his own time, probably after his stint as PSU coach has to do with the program today? If he did something untoward during his coaching career at PSU possibly but not if it is a personal issue.

I'm not convinced Jerry did anything at all and will wait until the "rumors" have run their course and facts are provided as to the big deal whatever it is. Jerry is and was a class act. Hard to imagine him of all people doing anything that would bring a negative note to the Second Mile or PSU.

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That's what I was wondering myself. I wonder if people are speculating about a cover up.

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Some of the posts made it sound like the end of the world (extinction level event). Must be pretty juicy stuff.


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I too read about this. What exactly are the rumors that could "destroy" Penn State football?

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I'm pretty confident that Sandusky was involved activities that will tarnish his legacy. The main PSU sites have all basically said the same thing: There are some sensitive things going on, the news will break sometime soon, and they will not break the news out of fear of having their ties to the program cut.

As for how this could harm the program... the only plausible explanation that I've seen or heard of is the "what if" question of whether or not people above Jerry knew about what was going on.

FOS has deleted any posts about this over on their site, and will probably continue to do so until other media report the news. However, the first post about trouble brewing was made by a former player on FOS who basically said for fans to brace themselves because whatever news was going to be coming out wouldn't be pretty.

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[2682] I didn't know there was an NCAA Arena Football league. Neat. I'm equally impressed by the WMU QB's line...

I can understand the desire to give the program the SMU-style death penalty, but I'd make sure the players were at least given the chance to transfer with no other sanctions against them.

Without question.


I'm sure there are kids on the Penn State football team who had no idea who Jerry Sandusky was until last week, other than that he was some old codger who hung around the facilities sometimes.

When adults break serious laws and go to jail, they are not given a pass because those dependents affected by their departure will be deeply hurt, or the kids in their choir can't go to Europe on a planned trip. When people have atrocious performance or commit galling errors at their job they are not kept because they have parents to take care of or the like. Of course not everyone affected had a damn thing to do with it, and of course it sucks. That does not mean it can't - or shouldn't - happen.

Even Buzz Bissinger can get this right.

Damn, these weeknight MAC games are becoming must see TV.

[2683] What's FOS stand for? That last post makes it sound an awful lot like there was widespread rumor of this.

French Onion Soup! Yum

"Are folks on the academic side of the university jealous of the folks who work for departments that actually bring money in to the university?"


There are "things that are important" and "things that make money."

I propose, controversially, that the Venn diagram here has more than one circle on it.

tweet of the day:

CMPunk: Anybody outraged by Paternos firing needs to shower with Sandusky.

and

- The proximity to Chicago actually hurts a bit -- unlike a Happy Valley, an Ann Arbor, etc -- the 'Cats are ALWAYS going to be local second fiddle on the gridiron to the Bears. They could be in a national title hunt and the Bears muddling through a 6-10 season, and weekends will still always be Bears weekends

i actually think this is fairly interesting. if you look at the big college football hotbeds (penn state, ohio state, USC/UCLA, alabama, texas/oklahoma), it seems that they're all located between multiple NFL teams, and that they draw talent not just from 1 pool of NFL fan, but from multiple, and they exist as a sort of melting pot, where the rivalries among the fanbases (in PSU's case, between steelers and eagles fans) both create a tension where there's a rivalry within the school's student population, and create an entity (the nittiny lions) where the entire population rises above tension to combine their rooting allegiances.

[2683] What's FOS stand for? That last post makes it sound an awful lot like there was widespread rumor of this.

fight on state

From the next page of the forum I linked to in 2683:

Take it for what it's worth, but according to one of the Sports247 staffers over at Lions247, several members of the PSU staff have been putting feelers out regarding potential opportunities elsewhere.

2682: Toledo has scored and allowed 126 points over their last two games, both ending in regulation.

Are folks on the academic side of the university jealous of the folks who work for departments that actually bring money in to the university?

Did you catch the This American Life episode on Penn St.'s relationship with the energy industry?

I didn't realize Mark Madden was the same guy as the Wrestling commentator. LOL at taking his word for anything. But by all means, call his hotline if you want to know who will win the TV title at Slamboree.

I haven't seen this linked yet here: new Joe Posnaski article

I didn't realize Mark Madden was the same guy as the Wrestling commentator. LOL at taking his word for anything. But by all means, call his hotline if you want to know who will win the TV title at Slamboree.

Way, way back in the day, I wrote the first version of Madden's Wikipedia page. It's a little longer now...

I didn't realize Mark Madden was the same guy as the Wrestling commentator. LOL at taking his word for anything. But by all means, call his hotline if you want to know who will win the TV title at Slamboree.

Has anyone checked with Mean Gene to find out his take on this?

I haven't seen this linked yet here: new Joe Posnaski article

If he wrings his hands any harder over the shameful way his "profoundly decent" Uncle Joe was scapegoated & shamefully treated, he won't be able to type anymore.

Oh, what a loss that would be.

Back into the shower stall with this sycophant ... if Bill James has left him any room.

I actually thought Pos was pretty fair. He certainly knows Joe Paterno better than I do.