Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
Yeah, I probably had my setting on "skim" at that moment, sorry.
You should be beaten to death.
3102. Lassus
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 04:50 PM (#3991794)
Why? Other than going to jail, which would be worse for the children.
I'm not speaking from personal experience, but watching your father try and kill (not stop, not punch, not restrain, KILL) someone who was just molesting you, as the guy who was molesting you tries to kill your father in defense is probably a lot worse than just getting molested and having your father stop the molesting.
3103. Mayor Blomberg
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 04:51 PM (#3991795)
I'll probably flip on ESPN at gametime just out of curiosity to see how they justify showing the game and how the Football First! crew that's lauded and magnified St. Joseph over the years handles themselves.
I don't expect to last long or to enjoy it more than reading the GJ report.
If you're going to (rightfully) hammer libertarians for living in some world that exists only in their heads, your desire for a suburban blood warrior is no less a fantasy.
I'm not from the suburbs, Lassus. I lived in the suburbs for a while there, and now I live in a city, but a man doesn't learn how to live from the apartments he rents during college. You want my code of conduct, you're going to have come with me to swamps.
It is completely possible that I might not beat the man to death. Hell, as a former semi-professional football player in good enough shape to continue coaching that game, it's possible he'd beat me unconscious. The point is that you don't walk away from that without interjecting yourself into the crime scene, violently, against the rapist and in defense of the 10 ####### year old child. The idea that the proper thing to do there is to "report it" and wait for the slow-grind ######## machinery of "institutional justice" to work is absurd. Anyone who would bury their basic humanity that deeply beneath a level of "follow the proper rules of command" is just dead and broken inside. They're not human any more. They're androids made of flesh. And if our culture has become one of flesh-bots rather than men (and women) then we have become utterly corrupted and worthless.
I'm not speaking from personal experience, but watching your father try and kill someone who was molesting you, as the guy who was molesting you tries to kill your father is worse than just getting molested and having your father stop the molesting.
No. Seeing your father see you being raped and watching him *not* try to kill the monster abusing you is the worst possible thing imaginable. It proves you are alone in the world and that the monsters have won.
I tried to kinda ignore this story in anything more than a detacted way, but have found it impossible. Over the next few weeks, I'll be curious to see:
1) If this story grows legs.
2) If Penn State announces they will not participate in a bowl game.
3) Who will invite Penn State to a bowl game if #2 doesn't happen.
FWIW, I truly believe #1 is possible, if not likely.
3107. Lassus
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:08 PM (#3991800)
I'm not from the suburbs, Lassus. I lived in the suburbs for a while there, and now I live in a city, but a man doesn't learn how to live from the apartments he rents during college. You want my code of conduct, you're going to have come with me to swamps.
And if you want the life you're describing, you can go back to the swamps. But you aren't there now.
It is completely possible that I might not beat the man to death. Hell, as a former semi-professional football player in good enough shape to continue coaching that game, it's possible he'd beat me unconscious. The point is that you don't walk away from that without interjecting yourself into the crime scene, violently, against the rapist and in defense of the 10 ####### year old child.
It takes two or three good punches to incapacitate a man (it wasn't a swamp, but you see actual fights in rural areas, too), and about five seconds to break someone's knees. It takes a lot more to beat one to death. I was very clear that trying to kill someone is the latter and I definitely see the need for the former. But there is a difference.
The idea that the proper thing to do there is to "report it" and wait for the slow-grind ######## machinery of "institutional justice" to work is absurd. Anyone who would bury their basic humanity that deeply beneath a level of "follow the proper rules of command" is just dead and broken inside. They're not human any more. They're androids made of flesh.
What exactly did I say that disagreed with this?
No. Seeing your father see you being raped and watching him *not* try to kill the monster abusing you is the worst possible thing imaginable. It proves you are alone in the world and that the monsters have won.
Granting that neither of us have lived through this, I'm going to say that this is stupid. But, again, I wouldn't personally know.
Sam, go rot in the ####### hole you so obviously deserve. God. Can you really be this much of a #### for brains? Is there really anybody that stupid in the universe who is actually literate? I'm stunned that you manage to get the front door open in the morning, given how many cognitive functions that obviously requires. What an utterly worthless presence you are around here. What a depressingly typical reaction from you. What a . . . whatever. #### off. Please, for the good of the world, just #### off.
3111. booond
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:11 PM (#3991805)
Booond, though, from what he said, is speaking from experience (that I hope to god falls far short of the Sandusky shower scenario). I think that lends his thoughts a certain amount of validity that I don't know the rest of us can claim. (I could, of course, be wrong.)
To clarify without getting into details - I don't have the permission of others to involve them in a full on discussion of their lives - mine wasn't a "Sandusky" incident nor did I need to act like McQ with the incident erupting in my face. I had maybe 30 minutes, which wasn't a positive influence. Time in those situations doesn't allow for clear thought. The end result worked out in that what I wanted to do was accomplished. I didn't hurt anyone physically - including myself, which with glass flying around is maybe my luckiest moment to date - but there were opportunities and I had the means.
As I've written earlier, I would do it again. Not because I "won" but because when my children need defending or saving my life has little value. I will risk it to save theirs.
I would be completely shocked if Penn State plays in a bowl game this year
Sadly, I wouldn't be. I have seen no proof yet that Penn State "gets it", and the fact is they are bowl-eligible. Some form of the argument that they can't penalize the fine young men on this year's squad, Penn State may not take themselves out of the running for a bowl game. And someone running a bowl game will look at all those tickets they can sell to Penn State folks (who do travel in support of their team).
Also, I don't follow college football closely, but is Penn State eligible for the Rose Bowl if they win out? And isn't that an automatic placement? I certainly have no faith in the NCAA to bar Penn State if this situation comes up.
As I've written earlier, I would do it again. Not because I "won" but because when my children need defending or saving my life has little value. I will risk it to save theirs
This is to your honor. I have no idea why you would turn around and claim McQueary's actions anything other than dishonorable.
is Penn State eligible for the Rose Bowl if they win out? And isn't that an automatic placement?
Yes and yes. If the Big 10 and Pac 12 champs don't play in the championship game, they go to the Rose Bowl. I see Penn State vs Stanford in the Granddaddy. What a contrast that will be.
There are things you could learn, worthwhile and wise things, from the swamps.
Wearing waders=good idea, for instance.
Insect repellent, too.
Also, don't pet the alligators.
3118. Scoriano Flitcraft
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:27 PM (#3991816)
So I read the GJ report. It seems to be carefully crafted but there may be a huge disparity with respect to the advocacy position taken in that report with respect to the testimony and recollections of Paterno, Curley, Schwartz, McQueary and Spanier, and what may be developed in any perjury or other legal proceedings. Stay tuned. (Or don't, if you have already made up your mind.)
3119. Lassus
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:28 PM (#3991818)
Hubris is believing you have all the answers already.
Believing the swamps shockingly don't hold all the answers is not the same thing as thinking you already have all of them.
If I was the Big Ten I would not allow Penn State to play in the Championship game.
3123. Lassus
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:36 PM (#3991824)
Believing that truth can't be found in all sorts of places is already limiting your ability to honestly seek truth.
Again, spare me. I've been through every time zone on the planet, and in all fifty states. Not finding your particular swamps' truth compelling does not betray what you're saying.
3124. Scoriano Flitcraft
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:37 PM (#3991826)
I see Penn State vs Stanford in the Granddaddy. What a contrast that will be.
Graduation rates:
1. 97%: Notre Dame
2. 94%: Northwestern
3. 93%: Boston College, Duke and Rice
6. 9%1: U.S. Naval Academy
7. 89%: Rutgers
8. 88%: U.S. Military Academy, Miami (Fla.) 10%: 87: Penn State and Stanford
We've got to protect the innocent from not being able to play football...
3127. booond
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:40 PM (#3991830)
This is to your honor. I have no idea why you would turn around and claim McQueary's actions anything other than dishonorable.
Because I'm not in his shoes. It was my child. There is a huge difference. While I wished he'd made sure the child was safe, and that is his true failing, I don't have his emotional reference. My guess is that most people aren't going to attack Sandusky, especially those who played for him and know him quite well. McQ had a huge psychological block he had to work past. I didn't. I had a child in danger. It was an easier decision. What baffles me is why McQ didn't say anything to Sandusky at the moment. Any action from McQ would've stopped what was going on.
McQ will pay for this most of his life. He stepped into a life-changing moment, made the wrong call and his life will be changed. Outside of the victims and their families, McQ will take the biggest hit.
3128. Scoriano Flitcraft
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:42 PM (#3991832)
Re NJ football: Eight Wayne Hills football players charged with aggravated assault play in 48-0 win over Vernon in playoffs. That was last night.
Monaghan and eight other players were involved in an altercation after 10 p.m. on Oct. 29 following a party, according to The Record, who spoke with police chief John Reardon. The teens were charged with two counts each of aggravated assault of two students from Wayne Valley, leaving one of them lying unconscious on Urban Club Road. The police told The Record the victims of the attack were taken to St. Joseph’s Regional Medical Center in Paterson, where they were treated and released.
According to The Record, Roth said case law prevents the school from barring students from extra-curricular activities if due to actions outside of the classroom or school-sanctioned events. Roth, however, said he believed the students should not play.
I see we're back to bickering. Sigh. Can we at least all aggre that the halftime show at the Penn State game should be Jerry Sandusky getting raped with a chainsaw?
3130. frannyzoo
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:46 PM (#3991834)
Given the circus, ESPN should donate all advertising revenues from this bizarro to the appropriate charities/agencies. Same for any shows largely devoted to the topic.
If PSU plays in the Rose Bowl..that's just about as wrong as anything involving the rather unimportant thing known as sports can be. Something like that might actually cure my addiction to this rather unimportant thing known as sports.
While I wished he'd made sure the child was safe, and that is his true failing, I don't have his emotional reference. My guess is that most people aren't going to attack Sandusky, especially those who played for him and know him quite well. McQ had a huge psychological block he had to work past. I didn't.
This is where we disagree, then. You give McQ the benefit of doubt for having to work through a "psychological block." After all, it wasn't "his child." I can't cotton to that. A child is a child, and a child being raped is a monstrosity. It doesn't require blood relationship to boil the blood. I can't fathom how someone walks away from that even if it's not their child personally.
3132. base ball chick
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 05:49 PM (#3991836)
Might could I ask all yall boys a question?
Have any of you with children or teens involved in playing sports discussed the Sandusky Scandal with them?
If so, how did you approach the subject of an adult in a position of significant power seducing and/or intimidating a child into acquiesence, then silence?
If PSU plays in the Rose Bowl..that's just about as wrong as anything involving the rather unimportant thing known as sports can be. Something like that might actually cure my addiction to this rather unimportant thing known as sports.
The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if the refs may have gotten some under the table guidance as to giving Nebraska every benefit of the doubt on close plays. It will be interesting to see if it is a close game with some close calls.
Any chance of napalming the ####### stadium? After, of course, removing Nebraska's team & fans to safety?
Don't be overly cautious, man. Collateral damage within reasonably acceptable bounds is morally permissible, or so I've been told. Firebomb it all.
3139. booond
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 06:06 PM (#3991845)
I can't fathom how someone walks away from that even if it's not their child personally.
This is where we agree. However he stops the rape, even if he needs to take a moment to sort though what he'll do, this is a child in a burning building. You can't leave there without doing what you can to secure their safety.
We are going to disagree on the other point. I see it as easy when it is your child to go "black" but it isn't the same when you stumble upon a situation like McQ did. I, like you, wish he'd done much more and if he had gotten physical with Sandusky, even to the point of harm, would be there to back him. That's not what happened and I'm not sure he can bring himself to be honest as to why that is. If he even knows.
3140. Mayor Blomberg
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 06:07 PM (#3991846)
Well, that was interesting. Until jut now on ESPN I'd not fully appreciated how McQueary had let down Joe Paterno. But at least 7 a.m. members of the faithful were kneeling in prayer at his house.
Best of the bunch, though, for 40whatever years PSU showed what was best about college sports, but this week everything that's worst about people.
If only there were a way to have sports without people, the world would be a better place.
On a related but mostly irrelevant note, both Joe Paterno and Bear Bryant played Illinois in their final games.
Bear didn't live much longer after that. Makes me wonder how soon Paterno will have the decency to die, & how great the wailing & gnashing of teeth will be in Funny Far- ... uh, I mean Happy Valley. Maybe we'll see a tableau of crazed fanatics jumping around & beating themselves in the heads, sort of like those interesting people in the Middle East seem to be prone to doing.
3151. JJ1986
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 06:15 PM (#3991857)
Is Devon Still a draft prospect? He looks like a beast out there.
3152. Chicago Joe
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 06:17 PM (#3991858)
On a related but mostly irrelevant note, both Joe Paterno and Bear Bryant played Illinois in their final games.
See! The Illini are relevant!
3153. Every Inge Counts
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 06:18 PM (#3991859)
Is Devon Still a draft prospect? He looks like a beast out there.
I hope so, he has dominated every game I have seen him play.
On a related but mostly irrelevant note, both Joe Paterno and Bear Bryant played Illinois in their final games.
And the last team to beat Joe Paterno, was Alabama.
3154. Chicago Joe
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 06:19 PM (#3991860)
It strikes me that, in this context, the name Joe Paterno is very Pynchon-esque.
Yeah, between Paterno and McQueary as in quear bird.
yeah, it looks like--from reading ESPN liveblog and stuff like that--it looks like Penn State is taking this as a "rally tightly together moment." as if the answer is MORE Penn State togetherness--the idea that this particular culture of loyalty could be the problem, rather than a solution, has not yet gotten through (is, I suspect, not going to get through....).
"we can't punish innocent athletes for what happened, let them play"--the people who are saying this, I suspect, WANT the team to play, so they can pretend that the culture of Penn State football isn't fundamentally rotten. they mostly don't come out and say "Penn State football is OK!--it's just a few bad actors"--but they still believe that.
over the last X number of years, Penn State football has said many things, made many explicit and implicit statements of values. one of these, we now know, is the following: "our power and autonomy are more important than protecting children from rape."
given this, allowing football to continue, in its central position, as that from which Penn State people are supposed to draw pride--this strikes me as profoundly, profoundly ###### up.
EDIT: was about to quote from that piece the Mayor posted (3161)--particularly, the bit
"while kids posed for pictures next to the Joe Paterno statue"
3160. Adam M
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 06:37 PM (#3991872)
Prediction: If WVU doesn't beat Cincy this weekend, there is no chance they aren't the Big East champ.
Thanks for posting something that isn't about Penn State. As a Nebraska fan, I am really looking forward to the Stanford-Oregon game tonight.
3161. Mayor Blomberg
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 06:38 PM (#3991873)
STATE COLLEGE, Pa. -- With a thick piece of black duct tape covering the Penn State logo on his baseball cap and a pair of signs criticizing the university, Jon Matko knew he wasn’t going to make many friends at Beaver Stadium on Saturday. But he didn’t care.
The 2000 Penn State graduate and father of a 4-year-old boy said he felt he had to do something to remind Nittany Lions fans about the victims in the school’s sexual abuse scandal. So while kids posed for pictures next to the Joe Paterno statue and others chanted, “We Are” before Saturday’s game, Matko stood on a street just outside the stadium quietly holding his signs and accepting the abuse that came with it.
Read one:
The kids are what this is all about. Not wins or losses. Put the kids first. Don’t be fooled. They all knew. Tom Bradley and all must go.
“When I think of that moment in that shower, I feel rage,” Matko said. “All week I felt I had to do something. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I had to be here for those kids. I can’t stop thinking about those kids.”
Matko, who lives in Pittsburgh, thought the university should have canceled the game and the rest of the season. He knows the importance of the game to university revenue and how canceling wouldn’t be fair to the players who had nothing to do with the scandal, but felt Saturday was too soon to play.
“It’s the right thing,” he said. “It’s not about Joe. It’s about the kids.”
One of Matko’s signs featured the famous Albert Einstein quote: “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.”
When he arrived at Beaver Stadium on Saturday morning, Matko was shocked to find himself alone. He didn’t tell his parents where he was going today, but thought he would show up at Beaver Stadium and join other protestors. But he couldn’t find any.
“It’s shocking that I’m the only one here,” he said. “It’s shocking and disturbing.”
But a few feet away, a group of women passed out bookmarks that outlined telltale signs to look for indicating that a child may have been abused, as well as phone numbers for the national and Pennsylvania child abuse hotlines.
Matko, for the most part, was ignored. A few fans offered a colorful word or two of "venom," as he called it. But that was about it.
"I know these people better than they know themselves," he said. " I used to be one of them. I was brainwashed, too. Ten years ago I probably would have thought somebody holding a sign like this was a fool. But I’ve grown up. I have a family now. I don’t subscribe to this any longer. Instead, I think it's important to stand up for what you believe. And I believe this university needs to start doing the right thing."
Meanwhile, the ESPN homepage headlines "Starting Over" Yup, just like thatl.
given this, allowing football to continue, in its central position, as that from which Penn State people are supposed to draw pride--this strikes me as profoundly, profoundly ###### up.
College football, and major collegiate sports in general - the ACC doesn't get out of this because they revere basketball instead of football - is profoundly, profoundly ###### up. I sometimes think that sports fans from metro areas - which tend to be loyal to professional teams more than indoctrinated in collegiate loyalties - fail to grasp the pure tribalism at play in these things. People have thrown out terms such as "cult-like" to describe PSU's football program, but as a man who grew up embedded in the SEC south, that seems to me to be the rule rather than the exception.
3163. Cowboy Popup
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 06:45 PM (#3991877)
Wake is playing Clemson tough, Purdue up 10 on Ohio St. Good start to Saturday.
I'm not watching it, but I find myself feeling revolted they're playing this game. That may or may not be logical, it's just how I feel right now. I feel right now we are so far away from what we think we are as people.
Cancelling the game undermines the "importance" of football. Cancelling the game slices the totem poles out from underneath the football program. Cancelling the game begins the long process of reestablishing a sense of priority that is not completely and utterly divorced from basic morality.
Firing Joe Paterno and all the coaches associated with him and bringing in complete outsiders does.
Playing the game without Paterno says that Penn State is bigger than Paterno. It can go on without Paterno and his cult.
3171. Mayor Blomberg
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 07:12 PM (#3991889)
What would canceling the game accomplish?
right, life goes on, you can't undo the past, these kids will be tougher for it, warriors, and that's the Sandusky tradition.
Sorry, Bernal, i don't think you deserve the snark, but I really, really, don't understand the question. It's "the game" that led to the silence, and to the perception within too damned much of PSU that there's really not a problem, just people hating on us.
I would have liked to see everyone get fired and a staff from the local junior college or HS team brought in to coach until interim staff could be put in place.
Also if I were Rutgers, Miami and the Colts I would seriously consider firing the head coaches there too.
3174. Babe Adams
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 07:14 PM (#3991893)
"we can't punish innocent athletes for what happened, let them play"--the people who are saying this, I suspect, WANT the team to play, so they can pretend that the culture of Penn State football isn't fundamentally rotten. they mostly don't come out and say "Penn State football is OK!--it's just a few bad actors"--but they still believe that.
We really don't know, do we? I'm not sure to what extent we can evaluate the full level of the rot right now.
I've come around to think the program should be closed down, but because of what happend rather than because everyone there is still immoral. I'm not much for public displays, but I found the candlelight vigil the students held last night to be authentic and beautiful. There are many good people there, and they should be treated as part of the solution.
3175. Mayor Blomberg
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 07:14 PM (#3991894)
It can go on without Paterno and his cult.
No, that's not what's happening. Not with the "We heart Joe" signs and the kids posing in front of the statue for pictures.
THIS IS THE CULT YOU'RE WATCHING TODAY. It's bigger than the scandal.
I'd argue that the only appropriate question to have asked is not "should we cancel" but "can we justify playing the game?", and that the answer is no.
But I don't think Penn St. could have asked that question honestly, for reasons Sam M has just outlined. And if, say, the Governor had thought of cancelling the season--who'd take that political risk?
There may simply be no existing agency with the ethical credibility to stop Penn State football. (You'll note that the letters "N" "C" and "A" have not been used in this message...)
3178. Morty Causa
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 07:20 PM (#3991900)
Yes, if people can refuse to play a game because of a religious holiday, or a widow (or widower) can think it unseemly to be seen doing certain things immediately after the death of their spouse, perhaps a period of self-imposed seclusion for institutions (or other collectives) applies just as for individuals is not only not out of order, it's the only thing to do. Just as our country can have a national day of morning, so can other entities. Indeed, they should. And why, in this case, can't the players, the students, every connected with university not take pride in engaging in such a thing?
3179. Lassus
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 07:22 PM (#3991902)
Canceling the game undermines the "importance" of football. Canceling the game slices the totem poles out from underneath the football program. Canceling the game begins the long process of reestablishing a sense of priority that is not completely and utterly divorced from basic morality.
Agree.
Would it heal the broken souls of the kids who got abused?
Of course not. Would it mortally wound the idea of importance and invulnerability that is now being REINFORCED by Paterno's and Penn State's supporters? (And I don't mean you.) The invulnerability that enabled this entire mess, and broke more souls than should have been touched? I'd say yes.
Morty, I thought the same way as you did, but I now think that Penn State narcissism makes such a gesture impossible. Such a gesture would amount to saying, in effect, WE ARE MORE THAN PENN STATE.
Penn State is now demonstrating that their response to a truly serious crisis will take the form of "intensify our collective identification with Penn State"--such a response is understandable, inadequate, pathological.
EDIT: I don't mean any of this to imply that other such communities would react differently...
Those of you in the field can speak better to it than I, but I've been reading a number of science articles about how we are very poor at predictung our behavior when we will be agitated when asked while we are calm. So I think its a bit silly for any of us to have much certainty how we'd react to seeing such a horrific act, much less pretend we'd go all Rambo on Sandusky.
3182. base ball chick
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 07:38 PM (#3991908)
Harveys Wallbangers Posted: November 10, 2011 at 10:57 AM (#3990234)
Scapegoat? Good grief.
Ok, look, I will try for the kids who ride the short bus to explain the flaw in the reasoning being shared by some in the Internet.
Given: Joe Paterno is held as a larger than life figure at PSU
Given: Joe Paterno is held as a larger than life figure in the community
Given: Joe Paterno is held as a man of extordinary ethics and moral center
Given: Joe Paterno was given information of a heinous act
Given: Joe Paterno was given information of a heinous act committed within the confines of the athletic program
Given: Joe satisfied his employee obligation by reporting to his nominal superior
Now, here is where it falls apart
If Joe is larger than life and Mr. Moral Rectitude does he really HAVE a superior on campus? Really? He has a guy who has a title that suggests he is Paterno's boss. But as assessed by folks in and around the university did anyone actually think Joe answered to ANYONE?
Of course not. Joe was regarded for all intents and purposes as PSU
As the leader of the university he had MANY, MANY buttons at his disposal to push. At ANY time.
He pushed a single button. That transferred ownership of the problem to someone else. Who likely took guidance from Joe on most matters.
- Thank you Harvey, No one could said it better or more succinctly.
I respect your opinions and would appreciate your help. How would YOU discuss what happened at PSU to your 8 and 9 year old boys, as well as a 13 year old girl,and why Paterno the powerful essentially did nothing to either stop the abuse or punish the pederast?
I cannot do [Sara] Ganim’s story justice. Read the whole thing. When you’re done, ask yourself why we should trust anyone in Pennsylvania, anyone with the slightest connection to or affinity for Paterno and Penn State, to get to the bottom of this tragedy.
There should be a federal investigation into what appears to be a cover-up. There is no reason for the public to place any faith in the internal investigation announced Friday afternoon by Penn State's interim president.
President Barack Obama loves to espouse opinions about the sports world... It’s time for President Obama to address a sports issue of substance and significance. He should demand that US Attorney General Eric Holder launch a comprehensive, criminal investigation into the Paterno State Tragedy.
We can’t leave this task to the emasculated media, particularly the sports media. We don’t have the power of subpoena or the necessary resources and backbone.... Sports Illustrated’s Joe Posnanski, my former colleague at the Kansas City Star, has thrown a weeklong blog tantrum because his plan to write the next “Tuesdays with Morrie,” starring JoePa, has been blown up by the Sandusky controversy. Let me be fair. Posnanski claims he’s upset because the media have been irresponsibly unfair to JoePa and not enough of JoePa’s friends have been courageous enough to publicly defend the legendary coach. (Maybe they’ve privately expressed their support to their immediate supervisor?)
Posnanski, who secured a lucrative book deal to write about Paterno, has been in State College for months researching the feel-good biography he and his publisher planned to release on Father’s Day. You would think an award-winning, celebrated “journalist” positioned in State College for months and researching Paterno for years would be perfectly positioned to chronicle this tragedy... What and/or whom was Posnanski researching? How can he be caught off guard that Paterno’s world is collapsing? A radio shock jock figured out what a singularly focused “journalist” couldn’t. Really?
The watchdogs of our democracy can no longer be counted on to watch.
3184. booond
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 07:53 PM (#3991916)
The watchdogs of our democracy can no longer be counted on to watch.
Jason's employed by FOX. His protests of the watchdogs of democracy rings a little hollow.
3185. Gaelan
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 07:56 PM (#3991918)
Bernal, I cannot believe you do not understand the importance of not playing this game. Everyone playing this game is giving their consent, and not even tacit, to the institution that allowed this to happen. Everyone suggesting they should play their game is also giving their consent, once again not tacit. This is not a slippery slope argument. It is the slope. The fact that you don't get this puts you on the other side of evil.
A football game is a celebration. I ask you now, what the #### do you think they are celebrating? I'll tell you so your morally inbred mind can understand. Everyone in that stadium who is there to enjoy a game, everyone working who is there to get a paycheck, every one of those souless ############ broadcasters without the courage to say this shouldn't be happening, you, all of them are celebrating the rape of children. Look in the mirror because that is what you are. That ####### stadium should have been dark.
There can be no light unless we acknowledge the darkness and there hasn't been anywhere near enough ####### acknowledgement.
3186. bunyon
Posted: November 12, 2011 at 08:02 PM (#3991919)
Wow, Whitlock with a hit.
Put me down for being in favor of closing down Penn State football. Fire everyone associated with it as an employee, allow the students to transfer or honor their scholarships but have them no longer eligible to play football at PSU. Leave it dead for two years. THEN start over with no one who has previously been associated with PSU.
Let the Bernal's of the world gnash their teeth that their precious is dead. They've shown that their opinions on the matter are not worth considering.
Bernal, I cannot believe you do not understand the importance of not playing this game. Everyone playing this game is giving their consent, and not even tacit, to the institution that allowed this to happen. Everyone suggesting they should play their game is also giving their consent, once again not tacit. This is not a slippery slope argument. It is the slope. The fact that you don't get this puts you on the other side of evil.
A football game is a celebration. I ask you now, what the #### do you think they are celebrating? I'll tell you so your morally inbred mind can understand. Everyone in that stadium who is there to enjoy a game, everyone working who is there to get a paycheck, every one of those souless ############ broadcasters without the courage to say this shouldn't be happening, you, all of them are celebrating the rape of children. Look in the mirror because that is what you are. That ####### stadium should have been dark.
There can be no light unless we acknowledge the darkness and there hasn't been anywhere near enough ####### acknowledgement.
I know the answer but will still ask it. Why hasn't anyone at ESPN asked if anybody at Penn State has bothered to try to find out what remaining Penn State coaches knew about Sandusky? They are treating Bradley with kid gloves because of the "tough situation" he inherited but he may well have known all about Sandusky.
If half the site has Gaelan on ignore, that says bad things about those users of the site. Gaelan is the best voice on this board, outside of Ron Johnson.
If half the site has Gaelan on ignore, that says bad things about those users of the site. Gaelan is the best voice on this board, outside of Ron Johnson.
Why hasn't anyone at ESPN asked if anybody at Penn State has bothered to try to find out what remaining Penn State coaches knew about Sandusky? They are treating Bradley with kid gloves because of the "tough situation" he inherited but he may well have known all about Sandusky.
#### ESPN. The Justice Department should be asking that question.
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
You should be beaten to death.
I'm not speaking from personal experience, but watching your father try and kill (not stop, not punch, not restrain, KILL) someone who was just molesting you, as the guy who was molesting you tries to kill your father in defense is probably a lot worse than just getting molested and having your father stop the molesting.
I don't expect to last long or to enjoy it more than reading the GJ report.
I'm not from the suburbs, Lassus. I lived in the suburbs for a while there, and now I live in a city, but a man doesn't learn how to live from the apartments he rents during college. You want my code of conduct, you're going to have come with me to swamps.
It is completely possible that I might not beat the man to death. Hell, as a former semi-professional football player in good enough shape to continue coaching that game, it's possible he'd beat me unconscious. The point is that you don't walk away from that without interjecting yourself into the crime scene, violently, against the rapist and in defense of the 10 ####### year old child. The idea that the proper thing to do there is to "report it" and wait for the slow-grind ######## machinery of "institutional justice" to work is absurd. Anyone who would bury their basic humanity that deeply beneath a level of "follow the proper rules of command" is just dead and broken inside. They're not human any more. They're androids made of flesh. And if our culture has become one of flesh-bots rather than men (and women) then we have become utterly corrupted and worthless.
No. Seeing your father see you being raped and watching him *not* try to kill the monster abusing you is the worst possible thing imaginable. It proves you are alone in the world and that the monsters have won.
1) If this story grows legs.
2) If Penn State announces they will not participate in a bowl game.
3) Who will invite Penn State to a bowl game if #2 doesn't happen.
FWIW, I truly believe #1 is possible, if not likely.
And if you want the life you're describing, you can go back to the swamps. But you aren't there now.
It is completely possible that I might not beat the man to death. Hell, as a former semi-professional football player in good enough shape to continue coaching that game, it's possible he'd beat me unconscious. The point is that you don't walk away from that without interjecting yourself into the crime scene, violently, against the rapist and in defense of the 10 ####### year old child.
It takes two or three good punches to incapacitate a man (it wasn't a swamp, but you see actual fights in rural areas, too), and about five seconds to break someone's knees. It takes a lot more to beat one to death. I was very clear that trying to kill someone is the latter and I definitely see the need for the former. But there is a difference.
The idea that the proper thing to do there is to "report it" and wait for the slow-grind ######## machinery of "institutional justice" to work is absurd. Anyone who would bury their basic humanity that deeply beneath a level of "follow the proper rules of command" is just dead and broken inside. They're not human any more. They're androids made of flesh.
What exactly did I say that disagreed with this?
No. Seeing your father see you being raped and watching him *not* try to kill the monster abusing you is the worst possible thing imaginable. It proves you are alone in the world and that the monsters have won.
Granting that neither of us have lived through this, I'm going to say that this is stupid. But, again, I wouldn't personally know.
To clarify without getting into details - I don't have the permission of others to involve them in a full on discussion of their lives - mine wasn't a "Sandusky" incident nor did I need to act like McQ with the incident erupting in my face. I had maybe 30 minutes, which wasn't a positive influence. Time in those situations doesn't allow for clear thought. The end result worked out in that what I wanted to do was accomplished. I didn't hurt anyone physically - including myself, which with glass flying around is maybe my luckiest moment to date - but there were opportunities and I had the means.
As I've written earlier, I would do it again. Not because I "won" but because when my children need defending or saving my life has little value. I will risk it to save theirs.
naa
Sadly, I wouldn't be. I have seen no proof yet that Penn State "gets it", and the fact is they are bowl-eligible. Some form of the argument that they can't penalize the fine young men on this year's squad, Penn State may not take themselves out of the running for a bowl game. And someone running a bowl game will look at all those tickets they can sell to Penn State folks (who do travel in support of their team).
Also, I don't follow college football closely, but is Penn State eligible for the Rose Bowl if they win out? And isn't that an automatic placement? I certainly have no faith in the NCAA to bar Penn State if this situation comes up.
This is to your honor. I have no idea why you would turn around and claim McQueary's actions anything other than dishonorable.
There are things you could learn, worthwhile and wise things, from the swamps. Hubris is believing you have all the answers already.
Yes and yes. If the Big 10 and Pac 12 champs don't play in the championship game, they go to the Rose Bowl. I see Penn State vs Stanford in the Granddaddy. What a contrast that will be.
Wearing waders=good idea, for instance.
Insect repellent, too.
Also, don't pet the alligators.
Believing the swamps shockingly don't hold all the answers is not the same thing as thinking you already have all of them.
I'd hate to think what the Stanford Band would do to commemorate this.
Believing that truth can't be found in all sorts of places is already limiting your ability to honestly seek truth.
Again, spare me. I've been through every time zone on the planet, and in all fifty states. Not finding your particular swamps' truth compelling does not betray what you're saying.
Graduation rates:
1. 97%: Notre Dame
2. 94%: Northwestern
3. 93%: Boston College, Duke and Rice
6. 9%1: U.S. Naval Academy
7. 89%: Rutgers
8. 88%: U.S. Military Academy, Miami (Fla.)
10%: 87: Penn State and Stanford
If I were the Big Ten I would have cancelled today's game.
The show must go on.
We've got to protect the innocent from not being able to play football...
Because I'm not in his shoes. It was my child. There is a huge difference. While I wished he'd made sure the child was safe, and that is his true failing, I don't have his emotional reference. My guess is that most people aren't going to attack Sandusky, especially those who played for him and know him quite well. McQ had a huge psychological block he had to work past. I didn't. I had a child in danger. It was an easier decision. What baffles me is why McQ didn't say anything to Sandusky at the moment. Any action from McQ would've stopped what was going on.
McQ will pay for this most of his life. He stepped into a life-changing moment, made the wrong call and his life will be changed. Outside of the victims and their families, McQ will take the biggest hit.
If PSU plays in the Rose Bowl..that's just about as wrong as anything involving the rather unimportant thing known as sports can be. Something like that might actually cure my addiction to this rather unimportant thing known as sports.
This is where we disagree, then. You give McQ the benefit of doubt for having to work through a "psychological block." After all, it wasn't "his child." I can't cotton to that. A child is a child, and a child being raped is a monstrosity. It doesn't require blood relationship to boil the blood. I can't fathom how someone walks away from that even if it's not their child personally.
Have any of you with children or teens involved in playing sports discussed the Sandusky Scandal with them?
If so, how did you approach the subject of an adult in a position of significant power seducing and/or intimidating a child into acquiesence, then silence?
In response to the disappointments of SI's Andy Staples, whom they expected to be in Paterno's corner but wasn't ...
"all he did was play the kid card..."
Shame on Andy Staples for playing the kid card in reference to the rape of children.
The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if the refs may have gotten some under the table guidance as to giving Nebraska every benefit of the doubt on close plays. It will be interesting to see if it is a close game with some close calls.
Any chance of napalming the ####### stadium? After, of course, removing Nebraska's team & fans to safety.
Don't be overly cautious, man. Collateral damage within reasonably acceptable bounds is morally permissible, or so I've been told. Firebomb it all.
This is where we agree. However he stops the rape, even if he needs to take a moment to sort though what he'll do, this is a child in a burning building. You can't leave there without doing what you can to secure their safety.
We are going to disagree on the other point. I see it as easy when it is your child to go "black" but it isn't the same when you stumble upon a situation like McQ did. I, like you, wish he'd done much more and if he had gotten physical with Sandusky, even to the point of harm, would be there to back him. That's not what happened and I'm not sure he can bring himself to be honest as to why that is. If he even knows.
Best of the bunch, though, for 40whatever years PSU showed what was best about college sports, but this week everything that's worst about people.
If only there were a way to have sports without people, the world would be a better place.
Well, we don't know whether they were praying to their version(s) of the Creator or to Paterno. Assuming that they're not one & the same.
Ouch.
What can I say, Sam. Rank tribalism brings out the rubbernecker in me.
A lot of negative to wade through. Cincy wins=will be Big East champs?
Understandable. I'm in awe of your ability to walk through that mire.
The tiny shred of hope that Rutgers could still win the Big East rests on the shoulders of West Virginia today. Go 'eers!
(Best hope seems to be some kind of three way tie in which they somehow come out ahead)
Bear didn't live much longer after that. Makes me wonder how soon Paterno will have the decency to die, & how great the wailing & gnashing of teeth will be in Funny Far- ... uh, I mean Happy Valley. Maybe we'll see a tableau of crazed fanatics jumping around & beating themselves in the heads, sort of like those interesting people in the Middle East seem to be prone to doing.
See! The Illini are relevant!
I hope so, he has dominated every game I have seen him play.
And the last team to beat Joe Paterno, was Alabama.
Yeah, between Paterno and McQueary as in quear bird.
Why bother? Just pick up a couple Leni Riefenstahl DVDs; she's a lot better aesthetically than ESPN anyway.
Hell. I can't make it work!
Yeah, sorry, still early. Good game so far. 7-7. WVU responded nicely to getting punched in the mouth early.
"we can't punish innocent athletes for what happened, let them play"--the people who are saying this, I suspect, WANT the team to play, so they can pretend that the culture of Penn State football isn't fundamentally rotten. they mostly don't come out and say "Penn State football is OK!--it's just a few bad actors"--but they still believe that.
over the last X number of years, Penn State football has said many things, made many explicit and implicit statements of values. one of these, we now know, is the following: "our power and autonomy are more important than protecting children from rape."
given this, allowing football to continue, in its central position, as that from which Penn State people are supposed to draw pride--this strikes me as profoundly, profoundly ###### up.
EDIT: was about to quote from that piece the Mayor posted (3161)--particularly, the bit
"while kids posed for pictures next to the Joe Paterno statue"
Thanks for posting something that isn't about Penn State. As a Nebraska fan, I am really looking forward to the Stanford-Oregon game tonight.
Meanwhile, the ESPN homepage headlines "Starting Over" Yup, just like thatl.
College football, and major collegiate sports in general - the ACC doesn't get out of this because they revere basketball instead of football - is profoundly, profoundly ###### up. I sometimes think that sports fans from metro areas - which tend to be loyal to professional teams more than indoctrinated in collegiate loyalties - fail to grasp the pure tribalism at play in these things. People have thrown out terms such as "cult-like" to describe PSU's football program, but as a man who grew up embedded in the SEC south, that seems to me to be the rule rather than the exception.
Isiah Pead is a phenomenal tailback btw.
The other option appears to be napalming the stadium with everybody inside of it. I am surprised the Catholic church is still standing.
See 3164
Firing Joe Paterno and all the coaches associated with him and bringing in complete outsiders does.
Playing the game without Paterno says that Penn State is bigger than Paterno. It can go on without Paterno and his cult.
right, life goes on, you can't undo the past, these kids will be tougher for it, warriors, and that's the Sandusky tradition.
Sorry, Bernal, i don't think you deserve the snark, but I really, really, don't understand the question. It's "the game" that led to the silence, and to the perception within too damned much of PSU that there's really not a problem, just people hating on us.
Also if I were Rutgers, Miami and the Colts I would seriously consider firing the head coaches there too.
We really don't know, do we? I'm not sure to what extent we can evaluate the full level of the rot right now.
I've come around to think the program should be closed down, but because of what happend rather than because everyone there is still immoral. I'm not much for public displays, but I found the candlelight vigil the students held last night to be authentic and beautiful. There are many good people there, and they should be treated as part of the solution.
No, that's not what's happening. Not with the "We heart Joe" signs and the kids posing in front of the statue for pictures.
THIS IS THE CULT YOU'RE WATCHING TODAY. It's bigger than the scandal.
Paring off one branch won't save the tree if the roots are rotten. Paterno may be gone, but the cult is still there.
But I don't think Penn St. could have asked that question honestly, for reasons Sam M has just outlined. And if, say, the Governor had thought of cancelling the season--who'd take that political risk?
There may simply be no existing agency with the ethical credibility to stop Penn State football. (You'll note that the letters "N" "C" and "A" have not been used in this message...)
Agree.
Would it heal the broken souls of the kids who got abused?
Of course not. Would it mortally wound the idea of importance and invulnerability that is now being REINFORCED by Paterno's and Penn State's supporters? (And I don't mean you.) The invulnerability that enabled this entire mess, and broke more souls than should have been touched? I'd say yes.
Morty, I thought the same way as you did, but I now think that Penn State narcissism makes such a gesture impossible. Such a gesture would amount to saying, in effect, WE ARE MORE THAN PENN STATE.
Penn State is now demonstrating that their response to a truly serious crisis will take the form of "intensify our collective identification with Penn State"--such a response is understandable, inadequate, pathological.
EDIT: I don't mean any of this to imply that other such communities would react differently...
Those of you in the field can speak better to it than I, but I've been reading a number of science articles about how we are very poor at predictung our behavior when we will be agitated when asked while we are calm. So I think its a bit silly for any of us to have much certainty how we'd react to seeing such a horrific act, much less pretend we'd go all Rambo on Sandusky.
Scapegoat? Good grief.
Ok, look, I will try for the kids who ride the short bus to explain the flaw in the reasoning being shared by some in the Internet.
Given: Joe Paterno is held as a larger than life figure at PSU
Given: Joe Paterno is held as a larger than life figure in the community
Given: Joe Paterno is held as a man of extordinary ethics and moral center
Given: Joe Paterno was given information of a heinous act
Given: Joe Paterno was given information of a heinous act committed within the confines of the athletic program
Given: Joe satisfied his employee obligation by reporting to his nominal superior
Now, here is where it falls apart
If Joe is larger than life and Mr. Moral Rectitude does he really HAVE a superior on campus? Really? He has a guy who has a title that suggests he is Paterno's boss. But as assessed by folks in and around the university did anyone actually think Joe answered to ANYONE?
Of course not. Joe was regarded for all intents and purposes as PSU
As the leader of the university he had MANY, MANY buttons at his disposal to push. At ANY time.
He pushed a single button. That transferred ownership of the problem to someone else. Who likely took guidance from Joe on most matters.
- Thank you Harvey, No one could said it better or more succinctly.
I respect your opinions and would appreciate your help. How would YOU discuss what happened at PSU to your 8 and 9 year old boys, as well as a 13 year old girl,and why Paterno the powerful essentially did nothing to either stop the abuse or punish the pederast?
Jason's employed by FOX. His protests of the watchdogs of democracy rings a little hollow.
A football game is a celebration. I ask you now, what the #### do you think they are celebrating? I'll tell you so your morally inbred mind can understand. Everyone in that stadium who is there to enjoy a game, everyone working who is there to get a paycheck, every one of those souless ############ broadcasters without the courage to say this shouldn't be happening, you, all of them are celebrating the rape of children. Look in the mirror because that is what you are. That ####### stadium should have been dark.
There can be no light unless we acknowledge the darkness and there hasn't been anywhere near enough ####### acknowledgement.
Put me down for being in favor of closing down Penn State football. Fire everyone associated with it as an employee, allow the students to transfer or honor their scholarships but have them no longer eligible to play football at PSU. Leave it dead for two years. THEN start over with no one who has previously been associated with PSU.
Let the Bernal's of the world gnash their teeth that their precious is dead. They've shown that their opinions on the matter are not worth considering.
And nonetheless, he's absolutely correct in this piece. The message, not the messenger.
Two years? Take SMU's "death penalty" and triple it.
The Catholic Church is not "still standing" in the west. The Catholic Church is falling in slow motion.
You are an idiot.
No wonder half the site has you on ignore.
My teeth are not being gnashed at all. JoePa doesn't mean #### to me.
Half the site has you on ignore too.
#### ESPN. The Justice Department should be asking that question.
Schiano left in 1995. He's certainly obligated to answer some tough questions, but I don't see any grounds for firing him at the moment.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main