Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, March 08, 2013

A Crooked Cap Has Some Wondering If This Pitcher Is Disrespecting The Game Of Baseball

This is most sacrilegious thing I’ve seen…since befuddled Springsteen fans applauded before Suicide’s ‘Dream Baby Dream’ cover was even over!

ye

But when Fernando Rodney took the mound to close out the Dominican Republic’s win over Venezuela, his cap was even more crooked than usual. Many fans loved the colorful and unique nature of the style. But others feel it is disrespectful to the game. But it does make you wonder, how far is too far? Can he wear it sideways? Backwards? Would it even be possible to make rule outlawing something like this?

Repoz Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:26 PM | 193 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: tilt, wbc

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 
   1. silhouetted by the sea Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:40 PM (#4384382)
I would interpret his playing for free for his country in a tournament designed to grow the game worldwide as respecting the game, but maybe that is just me.
   2. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4384390)
3 things I don't understand about the esteemed generations immediately prior to my own:

(1) Why is "No Problem" not an acceptable alternate to "You're Welcome" ?
(2) If you know the entire address for a website, why search with this entire address via google instead of entering it directly into the address bar?
(3) How on earth does the orientation of a baseball hat's brim correlate to respect or disrespect?
   3. Banacek Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4384391)
The hat is fine. I think his head is crooked.
   4. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:48 PM (#4384394)
It merely looks heinously stupid. Which might be worse in some ways than disrespectful, I suppose.
   5. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4384408)
Addendum to #2:

(4) How is "my bad" in an informal setting not an acceptable alternative to "I'm sorry" or "excuse me"?
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4384409)
(3) How on earth does the orientation of a baseball hat's brim correlate to respect or disrespect?


It's part of a uniform, uniforms should be worn with pride and in the way that they were intended. The word uniform implies a uniform standard. Cutting the sleeves off (Yes I'm talking to you Kluszewski), hat backwards, not wearing the pants properly etc.. is a sign of disrespect to the organization you are working for or representing. I would expect no less from an employee at McDonalds or a US Marine.



   7. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4384410)

(4) How is "my bad" in an informal setting not an acceptable alternative to "I'm sorry" or "excuse me"?


Never met anyone who has a problem with that, plenty of people have a problem with "no problem" though.
   8. smileyy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4384414)

(1) Why is "No Problem" not an acceptable alternate to "You're Welcome" ?


From a literal interpretation, one says "It was not an imposition", and the latter says "I was happy to." In actual meaning, I don't think there's any difference.
   9. silhouetted by the sea Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4384415)
Nate (from #2) I am probably a 1 1/2 generations removed from yours, so let me answer.
(1) Use "No Problem" that way all the time.
(2) I do that, I no it is useless, but it feels right, although part of the reason is that Google is my main spell checker.
(3) One factor is the color of the face under the hat.
   10. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:59 PM (#4384418)
It's part of a uniform....


Reasonable answer, actually.
   11. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:04 PM (#4384427)
#7

I had a couple of teachers in high school that would occasionally complain when someone would say "my bad". One of the teachers was older, so I didn't think much of it, but the other was much younger, probably in her early 30s.
   12. Steve Treder Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:07 PM (#4384434)
It's part of a uniform....


Reasonable answer, actually.

Of course it is. One of my pet peeves is the way that every individual player is allowed to decide to wear his pants high (showing the socks) or all the way to the shoe. I've never understood why that is any different from allowing them to decide to, say, tuck in their uniform shirt or not, yet any player who goes five seconds on the field with his uniform shirt untucked is immediately required to tuck it in.

Either it's a uniform or not. Make up your mind.
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:08 PM (#4384435)
It merely looks heinously stupid.

Concur. When I see it my first though is "Fernando Rodney is an idiot".

Similar to guys wearing pants around their thighs so you see their shorts. I think "how dumb must you be to accept such an obviously uncomfortable and impractical setup for the sake of fashion?"
   14. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:10 PM (#4384436)
What if he's not disrespecting the game, but merely disrespecting his country?
   15. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:11 PM (#4384437)
Of course it is. ....

Either it's a uniform or not. Make up your mind.


What about differences in the amount that the brim is curved/bent? or differences in whether the brim is angled up, or pulled down low over the eyes? These don't ever seem to provoke the reaction that side-to-side differences do.
   16. Robinson Cano Plate Like Home Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:14 PM (#4384441)
"Hey, where do you guys get those hats with the brim on the side?"
   17. Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:16 PM (#4384446)
There was something in the air that night,
Your hat wasn't right, Fernando.
They said you don't respect the game,
Just the same, Fernando.
Though I thought they should calm down,
You look like a clown,
If I had to wear a hat again,
I'd wear it right, Fernando.
   18. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:17 PM (#4384450)
Or maybe #3 is right, & Rodney's head is badly lopsided. I've never looked.
   19. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:20 PM (#4384456)
The word uniform implies a uniform standard.


Standards like this have nothing to do with moral issues, e.g. respect. He may be wearing a uniform wrong, but it's lame to infer any kind of ill motives or bad moral character from it. It's a hat.

One of my pet peeves


The issue is that people create their own arbitrary and capricious standards and expect them to be normative on other people, which is ludicrous.
   20. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:20 PM (#4384457)
I'll add my voice to those who just thinks it looks stupid.

I'm always on the little leaguers in coach to bend the bill of their cap. Generally they just roll their eyes at me and at the end of the day if the most disrespectful thing they're doing is not bending their caps I can live with it .

But seriously, Rodney just looks like a clown there.
   21. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:24 PM (#4384461)
What about differences in the amount that the brim is curved/bent? or differences in whether the brim is angled up, or pulled down low over the eyes? These don't ever seem to provoke the reaction that side-to-side differences do.


Isn't there an arguable practical reason for that? Field of vision for individuals, sunlight, and position can figure into some of that difference, enough that personal preference might have a legitimate say in which is correct. You don't expect a second baseman and first baseman to wear the same glove. Heck if Fernando argues he is having problems seeing with the hat the normal way, I can see accepting his take on it.

   22. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:24 PM (#4384462)
Years ago the Red Sox had a pitcher who was blind in one eye (Abe Alvarez). To protect the good eye he wore his cap much like Rodney does here. I think it was Michael Kay who went off on Albarez on his radio show calling him a punk or something similar before being told the full story.
   23. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:25 PM (#4384465)
Does anyone really think that Rodney (or Griffey before him) actually lacks respect or intends to show disrespect for the institutions represented by the uniform? I understand the pet peeve about a uniform being uniform, but shouldn't the intent matter somewhat? And if, over time, people learn that that hat brim position is not reflective of actual disrespect, shouldn't they adjust their perception of it as a sign of such?

edit: ditto to #19's first part.
   24. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:26 PM (#4384467)
The issue is that people create their own arbitrary and capricious standards and expect them to be normative on other people, which is ludicrous.


Other people's pet peeves is my pet peeve.
   25. Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:26 PM (#4384468)
My thoughts on the situation:
a) I think he looks like a complete idiot. I think if he was my teammate, I'd tell him that in as polite a way as I could.
b) I think people should lighten up - that as long as he's committed to being the best player he can be, he's not disrespecting anybody.
c) I think there are a lot of people in the world who get offended much too easily. It'll be okay. Baseball has survived segregation, the Black Sox scandal, and Bud Selig. A guy wearing his hat sideways in what's essentially an exhibition game will have approximately zero long-term impact on the sport. On the list of things that disrespect the game, I'd put this several miles behind Eddie Gaedel, MLB refusing to allow the Expos to make September call-ups, and the Marlins signing a guy and giving him an at-bat because he took a fastball to the face once.

But, as always, you're welcome to disagree with me.
   26. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:26 PM (#4384470)
The word uniform implies a uniform standard.


Standards like this have nothing to do with moral issues, e.g. respect. He may be wearing a uniform wrong, but it's lame to infer any kind of ill motives or bad moral character from it. It's a hat.

One of my pet peeves


The issue is that people create their own arbitrary and capricious standards and expect them to be normative on other people, which is ludicrous.
   27. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:27 PM (#4384473)
Isn't there an arguable practical reason for that?


When I was a lad, we only adjusted the curvature of the brim so it looked cool.
   28. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:27 PM (#4384476)
Sorry--my computer has been double posting for some reason.

I am sentencing myself to sit in the corner with a silly hat on.
   29. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:28 PM (#4384477)
Either it's a uniform or not. Make up your mind.
Eh. Every uniform is worn slightly differently. It is physically impossible for two people to wear a uniform in an identical way.

I guess you can say that people should strive for an impossible uniform uniformity, but I would argue that so long as you're recognizably wearing the uniform and not actively subverting it, little differences in method of wearing don't constitute an affront to the concept of a uniform.

I do think that the half to the side cap makes you look like the "edgy one" in a late 90s boy band, and you should find a more appealing way of making the uniform your own.
   30. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:31 PM (#4384484)
Standards like this have nothing to do with moral issues, e.g. respect. He may be wearing a uniform wrong, but it's lame to infer any kind of ill motives or bad moral character from it. It's a hat.


Absolutely disagree with that opinion. Sorry but if you respect something, you adhere to it's edicts. If you disrespect something you don't give a #### about it's edicts. Not saying bad moral character, that is of course a strawman that nobody on the planet that has a functioning brain would ever say. We are saying it's disrespectful to the uniform, and therefore disrespectful to the team and therefore disrespectful to the game.

The issue is that people create their own arbitrary and capricious standards and expect them to be normative on other people, which is ludicrous


Generally pet peeves are violation of accepted standards that has degraded. It's not like me saying "One of my pet peeves is people who wear shirts with the Nike Logo on it, and not wearing Nike shoes"... that is just a cranky old man at that point in time. Of course the version you highlighted, is a perfectly reasonable pet peeve. It's a uniform standard, there should be a level of respect accorded to the uniform, and there should be some expectation of uniformity. Just because the expectations has dropped, doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with being bothered by the lowering of the expectations.
   31. smileyy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:34 PM (#4384495)
The issue is that people create their own arbitrary and capricious standards and expect them to be normative on other people, which is ludicrous.


That's my meta-peeve.
   32. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:34 PM (#4384496)
I do think that the half to the side cap makes you look like the "edgy one" in a late 90s boy band, and you should find a more appealing way of making the uniform your own.


I like it.
   33. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:35 PM (#4384499)
Does anyone really think that Rodney (or Griffey before him) actually lacks respect or intends to show disrespect for the institutions represented by the uniform? I understand the pet peeve about a uniform being uniform, but shouldn't the intent matter somewhat? And if, over time, people learn that that hat brim position is not reflective of actual disrespect, shouldn't they adjust their perception of it as a sign of such?


The point is, if you respect something, you spend the effort to show that respect.

Note: I don't agree with the Griffey hatred, as I do think that it's perfectly acceptable to lower the standards in situations such as practice and pre-game, which is what Griffey did.
   34. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:35 PM (#4384500)
Absolutely disagree with that opinion. Sorry but if you respect something, you adhere to it's edicts. If you disrespect something you don't give a #### about it's edicts.


I'll repeat my question from #23, do you actually think Rodney has disrespect for the Dominican team and/or the country itself?

And for the record, the tilt of the hat is NOT an edict of Rodney's baseball teams.

edit: posted this before #33, but you still didn't answer whether you think Rodney has an actual lack of respect for these institutions.
   35. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:36 PM (#4384502)
No problem with it whatsoever.

Slapping the Nike swoosh and the adidas logo on formerly pristine uniform space is far more "disrespectful" of the uniform than anything Rodney's even thought of doing.

As for that matter is teams foregoing their school colors for black uniforms.
   36. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:38 PM (#4384506)
I am sentencing myself to sit in the corner with a silly hat on.


Will you be wearing the silly hat sideways?
   37. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:40 PM (#4384507)
Absolutely disagree with that opinion. Sorry but if you respect something, you adhere to it's edicts. If you disrespect something you don't give a #### about it's edicts. Not saying bad moral character, that is of course a strawman that nobody on the planet that has a functioning brain would ever say. We are saying it's disrespectful to the uniform, and therefore disrespectful to the team and therefore disrespectful to the game.


Show me where there is an edict requiring (and explaining how to) "respect" the Dominican uniform. If it's just floating in the ether out there, you can't expect the guy to abide by it. You can only EXPECT him to a) follow the law; and b) do whatever he says he will do. Peeves, "edicts," respect, etc., are all subjective measures of conduct that are not binding on anybody. If the guy has agreed to wear the uniform in a certain way in exchange for playing, he should abide by that.

Just for future reference, if you are wearing a Z-shirt, are you required to respect it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPBsYnzSOZQ (Warning: strawman)
   38. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:40 PM (#4384510)
Are players required to wear pants?
   39. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:43 PM (#4384514)
I do think that the half to the side cap makes you look like the "edgy one" in a late 90s boy band.


Awesome. Rodney even has the chin-strap beard + goatee to complete the look.
   40. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:43 PM (#4384515)
I'll repeat my question from #23, do you actually think Rodney has disrespect for the Dominican team and/or the country itself?


No. But to be honest, I don't think there are many people on the planet who have disrespect for something. And when they do, it's generally bigger picture than their place of employment etc.

I also do not see how anyone could think that him wearing his hat funny and silly is disrespectful to his country. I can see how it could be disrespectful to the game of baseball though and/or his team. His respect for his country has nothing to do with this.

Basically I look it like this. If you have pride in wearing the uniform properly, you are showing respect. If you do not wear the uniform properly you are showing disrespect, whether you personally have disrespect or not isn't the point, your actions are indicating a lack of respect.
   41. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:44 PM (#4384516)
Will you be wearing the silly hat sideways?


It depends upon the level of respect I have for my outfit at the particular time.

Are players required to wear pants?


Only mongeese are free to play barelegged.
   42. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:47 PM (#4384521)
Pictured: disrespect for the game.
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:47 PM (#4384522)
are all subjective measures of conduct that are not binding on anybody.


You are right, and my opinion on your attitude is also not binding. If you are a player and want to walk around like a putz, refusing to wear the uniform proper, then it should be expected that I'm going to infer you are disrespecting the uniform. Since I'm not likely to ever get a chance to meet you face to face, my opinion of you is going to be informed by your actions. In this case the actions of not wearing the uniform properly is indicative that you don't really take pride in the uniform. If you don't take pride in the uniform, I can infer you don't have much respect for the uniform, since you don't have much respect for the uniform, you obviously don't have much respect for the words or team on the uniform.

It's fairly straight forward to be honest.
   44. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:48 PM (#4384523)
Just a quick tip of my (forward-facing) cap to the intro reference. I was at the show where Springsteen did Dream Baby Dream for the first time. It was equal parts befuddling and mesmerizing.
   45. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:49 PM (#4384528)
If you have pride in wearing the uniform properly, you are showing respect. If you do not wear the uniform properly you are showing disrespect, whether you personally have disrespect or not isn't the point, your actions are indicating a lack of respect.


It is your interpretation of both the propriety level of how he is wearing the uniform and that it is an indication of a lack of respect. After so much evidence piles up that the brim tilt is neither improper nor an intended display of disrespect, it is your responsibility to adjust your interpretation to reality and not Rodney's responsibility to adjust to out-dated social mores.

In this case the actions of not wearing the uniform properly is indicative that you don't really take pride in the uniform. If you don't take pride in the uniform, I can infer you don't have much respect for the uniform, since you don't have much respect for the uniform, you obviously don't have much respect for the words or team on the uniform.


Your skills of inference are shitty.
   46. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:49 PM (#4384529)
You are right, and my opinion on your attitude is also not binding. If you are a player and want to walk around like a putz, refusing to wear the uniform proper, then it should be expected that I'm going to infer you are disrespecting the uniform. Since I'm not likely to ever get a chance to meet you face to face, my opinion of you is going to be informed by your actions. In this case the actions of not wearing the uniform properly is indicative that you don't really take pride in the uniform. If you don't take pride in the uniform, I can infer you don't have much respect for the uniform, since you don't have much respect for the uniform, you obviously don't have much respect for the words or team on the uniform.


That's fair. And you absolutely have a right to voice your opinion on it.
   47. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:52 PM (#4384532)
Just a quick tip of my (forward-facing) cap to the intro reference. I was at the show where Springsteen did Dream Baby Dream for the first time. It was equal parts befuddling and mesmerizing.


Did he ever cover "Frankie Teardrop"?

(I've read it was a major influence on "State Trooper.")
   48. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:55 PM (#4384536)
respect for the uniform


Come on. It's a piece of cloth. Salute your shorts!
   49. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:57 PM (#4384540)
your interpretation to reality and not Rodney's responsibility to adjust to out-dated social mores.


Again, it's a uniform. It's not a social ####### statement. It's a uniform. Just like wearing a suit to work, or wearing a uniform at your McDonald's job, there is expectations on how it should be worn. There is limits on how much leeway you can personally exhibit, and people all the time are trying to push those limits, and there is going to be push back.

Edit: Of course there is the argument that the team who allows the players to get away with that, is showing just as much disrespect, and if anyone has a problem they should take it up with the team.
   50. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:00 PM (#4384542)
It's not a social ####### statement.


Then don't infer disrespect!

Of course there is the argument that the team who allows the players to get away with that, is showing just as much disrespect


In this case, whose edict is the team defying? Whose definition of proper are they violating?
   51. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:03 PM (#4384544)
Just a quick tip of my (forward-facing) cap to the intro reference. I was at the show where Springsteen did Dream Baby Dream for the first time. It was equal parts befuddling and mesmerizing.


When rockers get old they play the damnedest stuff.
   52. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:08 PM (#4384546)
Back in the days of yore, before the internet & CD reissues & such, the original "Dream Baby Dream" was a bit of a Holy Grail for me. Must've looked for it for more than a decade before I found the 12" at, IIRC, a record convention in Little Rock in the early '90s.
   53. Jim Wisinski Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:11 PM (#4384549)
In the spring last year some Rays fans complained about Rodney's cap tilt (though the picture is pretty extreme even for him). After about a week into the season with Rodney mowing hitters down nobody said a damn thing any more.
   54. AndrewJ Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:12 PM (#4384551)
Many fans loved the colorful and unique nature of the style. But others feel it is disrespectful to the game.


Where are these legions of fans storming the gates vehemently protesting Rodney's cap? Cite me just one person up in arms over this.

It's part of a uniform (...) The word uniform implies a uniform standard.

An absolutely legitimate, non-hysterical point.
   55. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4384552)
Just like wearing a suit to work, or wearing a uniform at your McDonald's job, there is expectations on how it should be worn.

I don't really expect everyone to wear their hat brim directly forward. It's true that everyone has for a few decades now, but like everything else that norm is merely provisional and subject to change. Just as for decades there were no corporate marks or logos on sports uniforms and now there are. I prefer the tilted brim.
   56. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:17 PM (#4384553)
The angle of his head and the more extreme angle of the cap make it look like he just got smacked. It's pretty funny, actually.

I'd like to see the New York Yankees jog out onto the field on Opening Day wearing whatever they damn well please. I'd rather the players' union got behind that kind of funk instead of selling off civil rights.
   57. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:17 PM (#4384554)
Then don't infer disrespect!


I didn't infer disrespect, I inferred lack of respect. Big difference in my opinion. I'm sorry, but if you respect something you show it respect, whether it's putting your hand across your heart for the National Anthem or not cutting the sleeves off of your uniform to show off your big guns.

I do not interpret lack of showing respect, with disrespecting something. But I do interpret lack of showing respect as the desire to not show respect. That shows me that you don't respect it. I don't get how this is complicated. You may personally feel great respect for whatever it is, but if you actions don't show the respect, it's hard for people to pick up on it.

And to be honest, just because the powers that be, have stopped caring about showing respect, doesn't mean everyone accepts that lack of caring.

We open the door for women and the elderly as a sign of respect. There is no rules saying we have to, there is no law or anyone forcing us to do this, it's just something we do as a sign of respect and common courtesy. Sure there are people who don't do that, and it doesn't mean they disrespect the group, but their actions do carry some weight when other people see it.

Respect is not something that should be automatically assumed, it should only be inferred by actual actions. If you can't be put upon to do things the right way(you don't follow your mom's instructions, you go to work in dirty clothes without a shower, you wear the uniform improperly etc) then you aren't showing respect for who or whatever.
   58. Greg K Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4384555)
Though uniform standards don't evenly apply. Were Craig Biggio or Jorge Posada disrespectful when they slathered pine tar all over their helmets? There's always been certain personalization of baseball uniforms.

Though I do say this as someone who thinks the titled hat looks stupid...but I don't see why Fernando Rodney should care about that.
   59. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:21 PM (#4384557)
Absolutely disagree with that opinion. Sorry but if you respect something, you adhere to it's edicts. If you disrespect something you don't give a #### about it's edicts. Not saying bad moral character

This is dumb, and a lame cop-out. You can't say he is being disrespectful, and also claim you are not judging his moral character. Being disrespectful reflects on a person's character.

It's like me calling said statement dumb, but insisting that this does not reflect upon your intellect. At least have the decency to own your opinions.

Also #17 deserved a primey.
   60. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:22 PM (#4384558)
Cite me just one person up in arms over this.


Cardsfanboy.
   61. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:23 PM (#4384560)
But when Fernando Rodney took the mound to close out the Dominican Republic’s win over Venezuela, his cap was even more crooked than usual.

Why does this necessarily have anything to do with baseball? Me, I'm just assuming that he was disrespecting the memory of Hugo Chavez.
   62. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:24 PM (#4384562)
Jolly Old St. Neck Wound was a good one. That is neither here nor there.
   63. madvillain Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4384564)

"Hey, where do you guys get those hats with the brim on the side?"


"Nah, it's the same, just turn it sideways on ya head"

Coke to you sir.
   64. AJMcCringleberry Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:31 PM (#4384567)
plenty of people have a problem with "no problem" though.

Huh, I say it all the time and never had someone say anything to me about it.
   65. madvillain Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:32 PM (#4384568)
We open the door for women and the elderly as a sign of respect.


You really want to go here? There is a whole cannon of feminist theory that would say it's anything but, that it's a demeaning gesture that has highly symbolic value to the patriarchy.

Not that I'd necessarily agree, but when you start talking about "respect" and how to show it, you go down a lot of paths.
   66. Canker Soriano Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:32 PM (#4384569)
a) I think he looks like a complete idiot.
b) I think people should lighten up.
c) I think there are a lot of people in the world who get offended much too easily.


I couldn't agree more with these 3 statements. Not everything is cause for thinking about the children. Sometimes a guy looking stupid in a hat is just a guy looking stupid in a hat, not a call to arms about respect and the "right" way to do things.

If the team, or the league, cares so much about it, they'll make a rule about the center of the logo on the hat not being more than X degrees askew from an imaginary line drawn through the tip of the nose. And some Billy Martin type will march an umpire out to the mound in the 9th inning of a tight game, protractor in hand, in hopes of getting Rodney ejected for a uniform violation.

Until then, it's a Friday, the weekend is upon us, and there's a comet in the sky visible with the naked eye. Go spend an hour gazing into the universe and think about how inconsequential this issue really is.
   67. smileyy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:33 PM (#4384570)
cardsfanboy has convinced me of the semantic argument -- that there's a lack of respect for the "uniform" portion of the uniform. However, I (personally) don't consider that to be worthy of moral judgment, nor do I extend that to a lack of respect for the "uniform as a symbol of the organization", or as a lack of respect for the organization itself.

As Allen Iverson didn't say, "It's laundry, man...we're talking about LAUNDRY".
   68. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:34 PM (#4384571)
Cardsfanboy


Nope, I'm not up in arms over this. I'm up in arms over peoples inability grasping how others can see this as a sign of lack of respect. I don't care personally about the hats in one way or another, I get more up in arms over the wearing of the pants than I do over the cap issue. I make fun of Ray all the time, because he can't seem to grasp other peoples viewpoints, and it bothers me when people can't comprehend the other point of view. There are some things I can't comprehend either, I'll admit that, but when it's something as simple as not understanding how someone could find the lack of adhering to uniform standards, as showing lack of respect, that somewhat bothers me.

It's fairly simple concept. The uniform(it doesn't matter whether it's a baseball uniform, McDonald's uniform or a military uniform) is a part of who you are going to be identified as when at your place of business. Pride in the uniform is indicative of respect of the place you are working for. Lack of pride in the uniform is indicative of lack of willingness to show respect for the place you are working for. One way to show lack of pride is to deviate from the accepted norm of wearing that uniform. From that information you can infer if you want or not, some people are going to infer.

This is dumb, and a lame cop-out. You can't say he is being disrespectful, and also claim you are not judging his moral character. Being disrespectful reflects on a person's character.


Note: I should have used the word lack of respect instead of disrespectful. Disrespectful implies an active action of showing lack of respect. I.E. as an atheist, if I wanted to be a dick, I would go into a church and turn all their crosses upside down, that is disrespectful and it's a moral failing. If I just refused to put my head down during a communal prayer at a wedding, that is lack of respect, but not an indicator of a moral failing.
   69. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:45 PM (#4384578)
plenty of people have a problem with "no problem" though.

Huh, I say it all the time and never had someone say anything to me about it.

Ever since reading Douglas Adams's story about his trip to Australia, I have basically always said "no worries".

BTW, I cannot stress enough, how highly I recommend people read that story.
   70. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 07:52 PM (#4384583)
plenty of people have a problem with "no problem" though.

Huh, I say it all the time and never had someone say anything to me about it.


I've only met one person in real life who had a problem with it, but it's one of those "pet peeves" of people on the internet to the point that I was aware that "plenty of people" have a problem with it. I think in a real world setting, not many people are going to get up in arms over it.
   71. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:04 PM (#4384589)
Nope, I'm not up in arms over this. I'm up in arms over peoples inability grasping how others can see this as a sign of lack of respect.


And I'm up in your arms in creating uniform codes that don't exist. Anywhere you have to wear a uniform there are rules as to how that uniform must be worn (e.g. jersey top must be tucked into jersey pants in most youth league). If it's not part of the uniform code it's not part of the the rules of "uniformity", and your eagerness to inject "respect" into a concept of uniform vis a vis "uniformity" pedantry that is inaccurate in itself is puzzling.
   72. Greg K Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:05 PM (#4384591)
I usually go with "no worries".

I sometimes use "cheers" as thank you, but mostly just to British people in order to fit in. It always feels forced, and for some baffling reason I sometimes actually say "Cheersh", which I think I picked up from a Grolsch radio commercial in Toronto several years ago.

One I remain flummoxed by even though I hear it every day is "you alright?" which is essentially English for "hey". But I'm always crossed up between responding with "I'm good", or "hey, hows it going?" I usually end up just smiling and giving a friendly, yet indecipherable syllable or two.

One weird one is a McDonalds ad running right now. About a kid who keeps giving his new step-dad the cold shoulder when he wants to help out with whatever the kid is doing. Until the end the step-dad asks if he wants to go to McDonalds for lunch, which of course he is super excited to do.

Anyway, whenever the step-dad asks if he wants help with homework, fixing his bike etc., the kid says "you're alright". Which I guess means "you're fine where you are now, not needed here".
   73. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:07 PM (#4384592)
"Hey, where do you guys get those hats with the brim on the side?"


I really love this, especially in the context of this thread with so many in here pulling a Herc--"I think he looks like a dummy because he's signifying a culture many in this country associate with stupidity"
   74. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:07 PM (#4384593)
that there's a lack of respect for the "uniform" portion of the uniform. However, I (personally) don't consider that to be worthy of moral judgment, nor do I extend that to a lack of respect for the "uniform as a symbol of the organization", or as a lack of respect for the organization itself.


I agree with this.

In this case, I don't even think the brim-turning is enough of a deviation to even show that Rodney lacks respect for the uniformness of uniforms as a concept. But others do, for sure.
   75. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:09 PM (#4384596)
One I remain flummoxed by even though I hear it every day is "you alright?" which is essentially English for "hey". But I'm always crossed up between responding with "I'm good", or "hey, hows it going?" I usually end up just smiling and giving a friendly, yet indecipherable syllable or two.

Just say "a'right".
   76. Dale Sams Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:10 PM (#4384597)
whether it's putting your hand across your heart for the National Anthem


I take my hat off and put my hands behind my back. The hand over the heart thing is a little too ritualistic for me. And I refuse to take my hat off (though I will stand) for GBA. I already took my hat off for The SSB. It waters things down if I do the same thing for GBA.
   77. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:15 PM (#4384600)
Pride in the uniform is indicative of respect of the place you are working for. Lack of pride in the uniform is indicative of lack of willingness to show respect for the place you are working for. One way to show lack of pride is to deviate from the accepted norm of wearing that uniform.


If you believe the first 2 sentences, surely the manner and extent of deviation from the norm matters, right? Otherwise, if every deviation equally shows the supposed lack of pride etc, than one would see all sorts of lack of respect, disrespect, or whatever other affronts, that were simply imaginary.
   78. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:16 PM (#4384601)
And I'm up in your arms in creating uniform codes that don't exist.


I was thinking of Fresh Prince of Bel Air. Just for the heck of it, if you ever saw that show, you might have noticed that Will's character, Will, was wearing a bright colorful uniform that the other kids in school didn't have. The reasoning for this, is he turned his uniform inside out, and apparently it was within the uniform regulations that this was ok. I don't care how you spin it, just because it's within the uniform regulations, doesn't mean that this isn't a clear example of lack of respect for the uniform.

Respect is respecting the intention, not the wording of the rule. This is the part that people don't seem to be grasping, and there is no clear way to explain it to people who don't grasp it, but respect is going above and beyond what is the minimum, respect is not looking for loopholes in the rules. Some things I understand the lack of showing respect if you don't feel like it, but then you have to accept that people are going to interpret your actions the way they want.
   79. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:20 PM (#4384602)
If you believe the first 2 sentences, surely the manner and extent of deviation from the norm matters, right? Otherwise, if every deviation equally shows the supposed lack of pride etc, than one would see all sorts of lack of respect, disrespect, or whatever other affronts, that were simply imaginary.


Agreed. I don't think I have argued differently. We've talked about the different bending of the bill of the cap, and the different wearing of the stirrups/pants, and untucking of the shirt. All of those are different degrees some potentially indicating more lack of respect than others. Mind you the untucking rule isn't about adhering to uniform standards, it's about the actual play on the field, untucked uniforms are easier to be hit by a ball and deflected.
   80. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:22 PM (#4384603)
I take my hat off and put my hands behind my back. The hand over the heart thing is a little too ritualistic for me. And I refuse to take my hat off (though I will stand) for GBA. I already took my hat off for The SSB. It waters things down if I do the same thing for GBA.



Don't get me going on that piece of #### song. Out of respect for the people around me, I might stand up for GBA, but usually I don't bother. Got conned into it last year when they played it, right before the National Anthem. But if they do it in the 7th inning or any other time where I'm prepared, I have no problem ignoring that crappy ####### non-emotive, soup jingle, generic song.
   81. Nasty Nate Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:26 PM (#4384606)
Agreed. I don't think I have argued differently. All of those are different degrees some potentially indicating more lack of respect than others.


You might need to re-calibrate because you are probably getting lots of false positives. I think you implied up-thread that you don't think Rodney has an actual lack of respect for his team, or his country, or "the game."
   82. Jay Z Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:26 PM (#4384607)
He reminds me of the mechanic/Brooklyn Dodgers fan, in space, in Angry Red Planet.
   83. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:40 PM (#4384616)
http://cheezburger.com/4827241472
   84. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:41 PM (#4384617)
bright colorful uniform that the other kids in school didn't have. The reasoning for this, is he turned his uniform inside out, and apparently it was within the uniform regulations that this was ok. I don't care how you spin it, just because it's within the uniform regulations, doesn't mean that this isn't a clear example of lack of respect for the uniform.

I fail to see the connection between wearing your hat at an angle--which is something MLB is aware of and doesn't care to restrict--and a fictional character exploiting a fictional flaw in a fictional code of conduct that I must assume is something that his fictional administration was fictionally unaware of and corrected as soon as they possibly fictionally could

I repeat: MLB is aware of the possibility that players sometimes want to wear super baggy uniforms. They are aware that some players wear their socks high and some wear their pant ankles low. They are aware that players might put on eyeblack facepaint. They are aware that players might wear their hat uncreased or crooked. They don't care. It's not something they intend to be part of the uniform, and if it was, it would be in the rules. If individual teams didn't want it happening, they would make their own rules (like the Yankees and beards). They don't care.

Here's what it boils down to: you yourself don't like it for whatever reason, so you're going to go to the wall with a bunch of nitpicking about the similar etymologies of uniform and uniformity.
   85. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 09:46 PM (#4384642)
Addendum to #2:
(4) How is "my bad" in an informal setting not an acceptable alternative to "I'm sorry" or "excuse me"?


What's wrong with the good old (and grammatically correct" "my mistake", unless one happens to be under a syllable quota?
   86. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 09:53 PM (#4384644)

Here's what it boils down to: you yourself don't like it for whatever reason, so you're going to go to the wall with a bunch of nitpicking about the similar etymologies of uniform and uniformity.


Here is what it boils down to.
1. I don't give a #### about how he wears his hat.

2. I understand the argument, and cannot believe that there are actual people on this planet who are too stupid to understand the argument, even if they don't agree with it.

3. Respect, showing lack of respect, and disrespect are different things. Disresepect is an active act and could be interpreted as a moral failing by a reasonable person. Showing a lack of respect, is a passive act and could be interpreted as a moral failing by someone who is already looking for a reason to denigrate a particular person or culture. Respect is showing you genuinely have respect for something by taking pride in it.

4a. A reasonable person could interpret Rodney's actions as showing a lack of respect. Not wearing the uniform as it's properly intended shows a lack of caring enough to do the little things that shows you care. It is not a sign of disrespect.

4b. A reasonable person could interpret Rodney's actions as being neutral. Not seeing anything wrong with it, as it's not against the rules or if it is, it's not enforced.

4c. A dick head could interpret Rodney's actions as being disrespectful because he is looking for a reason to dis either Rodney or the culture that would convince people to wear hats stupidly. They can then infer that this is disrespectful to his country because that is the name on the uniform.


Wearing of a uniform should entail a certain level of pride in whoever you are wearing the uniform for, whether it's a sport team, or a restaurant etc. Now some people look at the uniform, simply as clothing for their job and treat it as any other piece of clothing, and that is fine. Nothing wrong with that, but those who go out of their way to wear their uniform properly(the way it was intended, not the way the rules allow you to) are going above and beyond and are actively showing respect. Now people have then looked at that, and said so if a person doesn't wear it as intended, then they are showing the uniform lack of respect, and that could be an indication of how they feel about the provider of the uniform. (team, restaurant etc)


   87. smileyy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:00 PM (#4384647)
[80] Totally agree that The Star-Spangled Banner is 1000x that jingoistic exclusionary piece of crap that is GBA.

The choice of GBA in the context in which it started to be played (post-9/11) is a symbol of the subsequent (further) moral ruin of this country. Of course we'll pick a song that talks about our divine right and blessing to capture the values of this country, rather than one that talks about enduring through adversity in a dark hour.

There....now I'm all up in arms about something.
   88. bobm Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:03 PM (#4384651)
Was Max Patkin perpetually disrespectful of the game of baseball?
   89. Canker Soriano Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:07 PM (#4384656)
Someone spends a lot of time thinking about the hair-splitting around the idea of respect. Drawing a distinction between disrespect and lack of respect, and attaching very different moral consequences to each (both for the actor and for someone viewing his actions through the respect rainbow)... God bless, I hope it makes you happy.

I guess if the article had the title "A Crooked Cap Has Some Wondering If This Pitcher Is Lack of Respecting The Game Of Baseball" none of this would have happened.
   90. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:13 PM (#4384658)
#86. You keep using this phrase "wearing the uniform properly." Talk about begging the question. Who are you to say that wearing your hat sideways is definitely "not wearing the uniform properly?"

MLB governs the general regulations on how uniforms may or may not be worn. They obviously don't feel this is improper or there'd be a gosh danged rule about it. The team issues the uniform and expects their players to wear the uniform in a manner that represents them as best as they possibly can be represented. They obviously don't feel this is improper or they'd tell him not to do it. And we're not talking about "what the rules will let you get away with that one time like on an episode of The Fresh Prince of Bel Air." These bodies are well aware of the possibility that someone might wear baggie pants, hiked up pant legs, or crooked caps. If they thought it was improper, disrespectful, or reflecting poorly on the image of their brand they would have made a rule to change it. This isn't "exploiting the rules". This is operating within the spirit of the rules completely and fully. I repeat: The MLB and MLB teams are not easily duped by clubhouse lawyers. Rules can be changed, and since a CBA has passed since players started wearing their uniforms oddly, it's hard to argue that the MLB or any MLB team cares.

And yet here you are making sweeping declarations about some Socratic ideal about proper uniform wear and how to properly respect a team you don't play for and who interacts directly with their own representatives with respect to "proper respect showing" absent any evidence that there is a proper way to tilt or crease your hat.

Which...is just a bit...well baffling is too weak a word and obnoxious is too strong. But rest assured it's somewhere in that spectrum.
   91. smileyy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:15 PM (#4384661)
[90] If we wanted that sort of neoliberal moral relativism around here, we'd be calling it an "Acceptable Variation" not a "Uniform", goddamnit!

#trolling
   92. mendozaline Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:17 PM (#4384664)
He's dominican. That's reason enough.

Hanley hits a home run and showboats around the bases. In the ninth, Miguel Caberea takes home run hacks against Rodney and Rodney takes offense. Typical dominican.
   93. AT-AT at bat@AT&T Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4384665)
Obviously this whole discussion is void... if you look at the picture it clearly shows "GRPFRT" at the bottom, ergo a groupfart caused the cap to move !

Someone smart should investigate the biological warfare going on in the WBC and especially MLB !
And in some cases maybe a hockey mask just isn´t enough for the catcher, maybe it should be a war-tested ABC mask !

Sincerely,
Jim McBean
   94. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4384666)
#91:

Also, why do we drive in a parkway and park in a driveway!
   95. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4384667)
#86. You keep using this phrase "wearing the uniform properly." Talk about begging the question. Who are you to say that wearing your hat sideways is definitely "not wearing the uniform properly?"


Again with the lawyering(note:being called a lawyer is probably the biggest insult I could ever level at someone.). Really? You don't know how the hat is supposed to be worn? You need a ####### rule to tell you how a hat is supposed to be worn? And I'm the one that is 'baffling'?
   96. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:20 PM (#4384670)
I know how I like to wear my hat. You know how you like to hear your hat. I hardly think Miss Manners has an entry on "proper etiquette for wearing a baseball cap". Since you know, it's a baseball cap. And it's not something that anyone with any common sense talks about "proper decorum" in terms of wearing.

But don't pay any attention to me, I'm just LAWYERING! TEH HORRORZ
   97. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:21 PM (#4384672)
I await with bated breath CFB's dictum on how to lace one's tennis shoes without being a disgrace to common decency
   98. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:29 PM (#4384682)
We open the door for women and the elderly as a sign of respect.

There is a whole cannon of feminist theory that would say it's anything but, that it's a demeaning gesture that has highly symbolic value to the patriarchy.

The broads who buy into that claptrap should have the kitchen door held open for them but no others.
   99. Morty Causa Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:31 PM (#4384683)
Who was it--Frank Robinson?--who started wearing his stirrups split very high to show a lot of the sanitaries? Soon, others followed. Does that show a lack of respect (or maybe it's a positive disrespect) also. My concern as a manager or coach, or teammate or fan, would be if doing something like that would distract from his concentrating on the task at hand. It may sound silly to think it would, but I know from experience that if you do something out of the usual you feel it--at least until it become routine. You are aware of it, even you don't actually think about it. Of course, it may be the way he always wears his cap, in which case, then, it is only a matter of respect/disrespect, and I void the field.
   100. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:35 PM (#4384687)
Wearing your hat out in public when you are in regular clothes is all about just wearing your clothes and expressing yourself. Proper decorum doesn't apply except as it relates to common decency. A uniform is something different. Most people know how to wear a uniform. Most people know the expectations of how to wear the uniform. They don't need a 10 page manual on how to wear it, society all of their life have dictated how things should be. The rebel in you might want to rebel, by wearing it to the side or whatever, and you are doing it knowingly. You aren't doing it because you don't know the difference.


If he has never been told in his life, that the proper way to wear a hat is with the bill facing front, then I and all others should apologize. But I don't think that is the case. I would be willing to bet if you asked him how you should properly wear a baseball hat, he like the vast majority of the population would know the right answer. This isn't rocket science. This isn't the military style of regulation(which does dictate, the direction of the bill, the range of height above the ears it must be, the shape of the bill etc) this is just common sense part of wearing a uniform.
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'.
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOMNICHATTER 7-30-2014
(38 - 11:17pm, Jul 30)
Last: Walks Clog Up the Bases

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1956 Ballot
(9 - 11:17pm, Jul 30)
Last: lieiam

NewsblogPosnanski: Hey, Rube: Phillies pay dearly for Amaro’s misguided loyalty
(20 - 11:12pm, Jul 30)
Last: clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right

NewsblogCameron: Why a July 31 trade deadline just doesn’t make sense anymore
(14 - 11:06pm, Jul 30)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogCubs Acquire Felix Doubront
(46 - 10:59pm, Jul 30)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014
(1032 - 10:50pm, Jul 30)
Last: robinred

NewsblogOTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game
(3797 - 10:47pm, Jul 30)
Last: zonk

NewsblogOT: NBC.news: Valve isn’t making one gaming console, but multiple ‘Steam machines’
(679 - 10:46pm, Jul 30)
Last: zack

NewsblogSOE: Minor League Manhood - A first-hand account of masculine sports culture run amok.
(154 - 10:39pm, Jul 30)
Last: BDC

NewsblogPosnanski: Four theories about Hall of Fame voting changes
(27 - 10:32pm, Jul 30)
Last: DanO

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1957 Discussion
(14 - 10:30pm, Jul 30)
Last: Moeball

NewsblogEric Chavez Retires
(28 - 10:03pm, Jul 30)
Last: SoSHially Unacceptable

NewsblogRed Sox trade rumors: 'Very good chance' John Lackey and Jon Lester are traded - Over the Monster
(51 - 9:47pm, Jul 30)
Last: BDC

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread July, 2014
(529 - 9:37pm, Jul 30)
Last: Mefisto

NewsblogVICE: Baseball Erotica #1: John Smoltz and Tom Glavine
(8 - 8:58pm, Jul 30)
Last: David Nieporent (now, with children)

Page rendered in 0.8955 seconds
54 querie(s) executed