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Monday, August 13, 2012

A Rejected Jobseeker Sends The Padres The Best Letter Ever

Hi [Redacted],

I wanted to thank you for reaching out to me when thinking of ways to meet your quota for the Sports Sales Combine.

After careful review I must decline. I realize I may be burning a bridge here, but in the spirit of reciprocity, I would like to extend you a counter-offer to suck my dick. Clearly, I don’t have one of these, so my offer makes about as much sense as yours. But for the price you’re charging to attend the event, I’m sure I would have no problem borrowing one.

Managers like you have found this to be the most authentic training available. Real, hands-on experience getting you on your way to perfecting the techniques you will need to climb the corporate ladder. In these tough economic times, it’s always good to widen your skill set.

Let’s talk about why I wasn’t a good fit with your organization. Was it my extensive education that made me less of a fit, that now paying $500 will allow me to overcome? My graduate work in sports commerce? Being a law student, working toward becoming an agent? Was it my past experience overseeing the execution of national and international events? Wait, I know, maybe it was my previous internship with Major League Soccer, and that I actually got my “start” in professional sports at the age of 15 when I volunteered at a minor league ballpark in my hometown. And given all that, I chose to apply with the Padres, at least 30 times since moving to San Diego. Persevering through countless anonymous email rejections, I continued to submit my resume despite never even being granted the courtesy of a face-to-face interview. All for the joy of making $30K a year. Maybe you’re right. Maybe I’m not the best fit for your company. But here’s a nice fit, my foot in your ass.

All the best,

Taylor

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 13, 2012 at 02:03 PM | 171 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: careers in baseball, job applicants, padres

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   1. Anonymous Observer Posted: August 13, 2012 at 03:47 PM (#4207391)
I'd like for Rob Neyer and Keither Hernandez to weigh on on this.
   2. Lassus Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4207412)
This warms my heart.
   3. Flynn Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4207424)
Nice marketing move. I've only worked on the fringes of the sports world, but I've seen enough to know that teams and organizations are pretty ruthless about exploiting people's willingness to work for them and the middle-aged middle managers who studied history who act as if having an MBA today isn't good enough for that 30K a year job are infuriating.
   4. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4207425)
I think the baseball people in an organization would love this, but it's so insulated from the marketing side now that they probably can't do much for her.

I don't know how this whole thing goes, but I've known a couple of young guys who were agents to barely-prospect athletes trying to hang on in low-level competition. They tended to piggyback their efforts on some other job, but they were working in sports and who knows what happens on your 100th call of the week?
   5. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4207426)
It was pretty lame for the Padres to use their rejection list as a marketing list for some event. I probably wouldn't have responded this way but I don't blame this lady for being really irritated at them. She looks immature, but the Padres look worse IMO.
   6. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4207433)
Those "work in sports" job fairs and seminars are shameless ripoffs. There's nothing anyone can learn in one of these $500 seminars that they couldn't learn from a couple free articles online, or maybe a $3 e-book.
   7. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4207438)
The "suck my dick" portion of the letter is fine. Immature, bridge burning, etc., but basically justified by the context. The Padres hitting her up for a $500 job fair is pretty low rent, and considering all the frustration involved in the job search these days, I understand ripping off an angry email telling the Padres just exactly how crummy their behavior was.

The final paragraph is really whiny, however. It takes the email from "I'm pissed at you for asking for money I don't have" to "I'm pissed at you for not hiring me." I understand the frustration, believe me, but there are #### tons of qualified, educated people out there who can't get anything more than anonymous rejection letters. That entire spiel lessens the effectiveness of the first couple paragraphs.
   8. PreservedFish Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4207444)
That entire spiel lessens the effectiveness of the first couple paragraphs.


Agreed, especially because the recitation of her resume is in classic cover letter puffery style.
   9. Chris Needham Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4207448)
That's not fair. I'm sure she oversaw the execution of MANY international events.

I dunno. After I applied to a spot 28 times and didn't get a job, I dunno if I'd try a 29th or 30th time.
   10. Flynn Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4207450)
I think the baseball people in an organization would love this, but it's so insulated from the marketing side now that they probably can't do much for her.


Of course they would. Baseball ops seems to be more meritocratic, or at least an industry where paying your dues should eventually lead to something. The corporate side of sports is basically who is the bestest friend of somebody else who will work the cheapest.
   11. Lassus Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4207452)
Disagree with CFBF and PF. If you're going to not just burn your bridge but blow it to smithereens, may as well make it a litany of why you feel they screwed up on every level. Just because it sounds like whining doesn't necessarily make it any less the truth.


The corporate side of sports is basically who is the bestest friend of somebody else who will work the cheapest.

Not just sports.
   12. The Good Face Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4207453)
Sign me up with #7. The Padres really didn't cover themselves with glory here, but whining about not getting a MLB job despite having interned at MLS AND volunteered to pick up trash at your local minor league park as a kid is pretty pathetic.

   13. Danny Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4207461)
I agree with #7.
Was it my extensive education that made me less of a fit, that now paying $500 will allow me to overcome? My graduate work in sports commerce? Being a law student, working toward becoming an agent?

She's apparently a college graduate who is "working on a graduate degree in sports management from the University of Memphis"* and dropped out of law school at California Western School of Law. Yes, it must have been the extensive education that overqualified her. I mean, she was almost an agent!

* but seemingly not working too hard on it, since she moved to San Diego and tried out law school.
   14. Dale Sams Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4207463)
But does she have big tits?
   15. PreservedFish Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4207468)
Disagree with CFBF and PF. If you're going to not just burn your bridge but blow it to smithereens, may as well make it a litany of why you feel they screwed up on every level. Just because it sounds like whining doesn't necessarily make it any less the truth.


What's the "truth" here? Maybe the Padres always had better candidates and lots of them. Maybe her experience (which was, again, couched in vague and ugly resume terms like "experience overseeing the execution of") wasn't good enough.

(Now I'm actually reading the article, which has a lot of extra detail.)

I think they probably did have better candidates for the good jobs she was applying to at first. She didn't go to a good school (despite "extensive education"), and her major wasn't applicable. The girl "volunteered" at a minor league team fifteen years before applying to this job ... that is a cute detail but not qualification for anything.

And then she started applying to crappy jobs, taking tickets and such, and she probably was overqualified. I had the post-college experience of being rejected from working at places like Ikea and Borders, and those places were right not to hire me, because even though I'm smart and wouldn't need much training I would've putting in my notice as soon as I was able.

But with all that said, I am nitpicking, just agreeing that the resume-recounting portion of the letter made it a little bit weaker. I still think that the big FU was awesome, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone offers her a job just because they like her moxie.
   16. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4207478)
But does she have big tits?

I will not comment on Ms. Meyer's physique, but anybody hoping to dismiss this with "She's probably fat and ugly anyway" is in for some disappointment.
   17. Depressoteric Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4207483)
To the naysayers: c'mon, this letter is awesome. Who cares if she quickly ran through the reasons she felt like she had a decent resume? Their offer to her ("pay us $500 for the opportunity to not get a job!") was an insulting swindle, and her response was golden.

Actually, this is over a week old -- I'm surprised it took this long to get posted here on Primer.
   18. bfan Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4207484)
She was presented an opportunity to network with potential employers, at a price she couldn't afford or that she thought was too high, for the value; a simple no thanks, or no response, would have sufficed.

Do we know how her response became public? Did she publish it? If she did, I suspect an effort to get notariety by her clever retort, which I do not find clever at all.
   19. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4207487)
Do we know how her response became public? Did she publish it? If she did, I suspect an effort to get notariety by her clever retort, which I do not find clever at all.


According to Deadspin someone in the Padres' front office forwarded it to a friend with another team and it quickly spread throughout the various leagues. I assume a member of one of those front offices leaked it to DS.
   20. Depressoteric Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4207489)
Do we know how her response became public? Did she publish it? If she did, I suspect an effort to get notariety by her clever retort, which I do not find clever at all.
Yes, we know how it became public -- it's in the linked Deadspin article. Someone in the Padres sales office thought it was amazing in its own way and forwarded it to a friend in another FO; from there it's made its way to inboxes at the FOs of various U.S. professional sports franchises around the country. Deadspin points out that, according to the copy they received, by August 9th it had already been sent to people in the Nationals, Orioles, Yankees, Diamondbacks, Astros, Red Sox, Cubs, and Mets...and that's just the MLB teams (it also went out to several NFL and minor league baseball teams, among others).

She had nothing to do with it going viral, though as she says in the article linked in #16, she thanks the Padres for forwarding it around, as it's led to a bunch of new leads. Which is pretty cool.
   21. Spahn Insane Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4207492)
Well, christ--she completely buried and underemphasized her main qualification for working with the Pads: her work with minor league baseball teams since age 15. No wonder she didn't get hired.
   22. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4207493)
She was presented an opportunity to network with potential employers, at a price she couldn't afford or that she thought was too high, for the value; a simple no thanks, or no response, would have sufficed.

Oh, come on. A job fair is not "an opportunity to network". And $495 is quite simply a shameless example of money-grubbing at the expense of the desperate.

That being said, this email is annoying. She didn't need to complain that she was overqualified for the job, she just needed to complain about the money-grubbing job fair thing. But a lot of people seem to be impressed by it, so who cares about my nitpickng.
   23. TDF, situational idiot Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4207505)
The girl "volunteered" at a minor league team fifteen years before applying to this job ... that is a cute detail but not qualification for anything.

And then she started applying to crappy jobs, taking tickets and such, and she probably was overqualified.
So, she's either under- or over-qualified for any job they offer?
   24. PreservedFish Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4207527)
So, she's either under- or over-qualified for any job they offer?


Maybe she just got unlucky when she was applying to the sweet spot jobs.
   25. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4207529)
I will not comment on Ms. Meyer's physique, but anybody hoping to dismiss this with "She's probably fat and ugly anyway" is in for some disappointment.


From the article you linked:

she’s been offered a slew of job opportunities and even a few marriage proposals.


I'm sure both are equally worthless.
   26. phredbird Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4207533)
i can sympathize with her frustration, and after considering her qualifications, i can see how writing something as crazy as this is a way to get her name out there ...

i've been on both sides of this equation.

i've experienced a lot of frustration over the years trying to get my artwork noticed. i suppose if i worked at marketing myself harder, i'd see some results. but there's only so much time for that after working a full time job, and the constant rejection wears on you.

meanwhile, i'm in the process of hiring a subordinate at my fulltime job and i have to say based on that letter, i don't think i'd hire her. but it has a lot to do with how she comes off in the letter. maybe in person she might seem more like a decent colleague.

i dunno. the job market is tough. i advertised for this position early last week and got about 60 applications by the end of the day, and have gotten about 25 more without refreshing it on craigslist. folks are desperate.
   27. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4207535)
I hope the Padres don't screen the fan signs too carefully.
   28. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4207554)
Does anyone know if she's tried forwarding a photo to Steve Phillips?
   29. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:44 PM (#4207559)
Does anyone know if she's tried forwarding a photo to Steve Phillips?

No, if you look at the picture, she's not fat and ugly.
   30. Dale Sams Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:46 PM (#4207563)
Does anyone know if she's tried forwarding a photo to Steve Phillips?


Is Coco Crisp still looking for a personal assistant? Maybe Harold Reynolds can help her out.

...but seriously, did the Pods forward this to get her blackballed?
   31. Lassus Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:49 PM (#4207566)
No, if you look at the picture, she's not fat and ugly.

I sincerely do not understand you human beings.
   32. KT's Pot Arb Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:51 PM (#4207567)
She was presented an opportunity to network with potential employers, at a price she couldn't afford or that she thought was too high, for the value; a simple no thanks, or no response, would have sufficed.


They attempted to scam her out of $500, what an "opportunity". You sound like someone who spends their days on the phone selling multi-level marketing "opportunities".

Do we know how her response became public? Did she publish it? If she did, I suspect an effort to get notariety by her clever retort, which I do not find clever at all.


Who cares what you think, Captain StuffeyShirt? Her letter is likely to get her a slew of interviews, and is likely her best route to an MLB job. Even if most employers are turned off by her response or language, there will be more than a few intrigued by her willingness to speak honestly and openly to a potential employer. Maybe where you work you think getting ahead means telling your boss they are always right, but th best organizations prosper because employees are rewarded, not punished, for speaking their minds.

As a CEO and a division head, I despised anyone who wouldn't speak honestly to me or who would intimidate any employee from giving their honest opinion.

The real question is why the Padres organization would risk sullying their reputation for a a few shekels. Hopefully this leads to firing of the manager who approved this event.
   33. shoewizard Posted: August 13, 2012 at 07:50 PM (#4207598)
Padres dodged a bullet here. Not sure why she didn't get a look see with all the qualifications on here resume. But not knowing the quality of the competing resumes, it's tough to say. But if I were the person responsible to make the hire, after seeing that letter, and reading more about her, no way I would take the risk. There just seems to be "issues" there.
   34. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 13, 2012 at 07:59 PM (#4207605)
But if I were the person responsible to make the hire, after seeing that letter, and reading more about her, no way I would take the risk. There just seems to be "issues" there.

I liked her a lot more before I read that she "recently finished [her] memoir" and is pitching it to agents.
   35. PreservedFish Posted: August 13, 2012 at 08:06 PM (#4207608)
I missed the part about her memoir, but this struck me as weird too:

"A few years ago I wrote a children's book to raise money for pediatric cancer," Meyer says. (That book is available at her website.) "I partnered with the American Cancer Society for a fundraiser and no one gave me the time of day. It took me one year to finish and about $1000 out-of-pocket in addition to all the time.


   36. Howie Menckel Posted: August 13, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4207611)

if this is true FTFA, it beats all the other issues being discussed here:

"The viral letter has already opened doors for future job opportunities — she is still going through emails and contacting those who reached out to her. But perhaps the best thing that has come out of this experience, Meyer says, is that the children’s book she wrote two years ago for a pediatric cancer patient is finally getting attention.

“People are ordering it through Amazon.com and donating it to hospitals, churches and schools,” Meyer said. “It’s kind of sad that a snarky email that took me 15 minutes to write gained international attention in a week, while a book I wrote to empower children got no attention — even after partnering with the American Cancer Society for a signing and fundraiser.” "

   37. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: August 13, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4207616)
“People are ordering it through Amazon.com and donating it to hospitals, churches and schools,” Meyer said. “It’s kind of sad that a snarky email that took me 15 minutes to write gained international attention in a week, while a book I wrote to empower children got no attention — even after partnering with the American Cancer Society for a signing and fundraiser.” "

So either
1. People who read the Padres article then looked up "Taylor Grey Mayer," and then followed a link to "Taylor Grey" on Amazon, and then read about this book, and then bought it, and then donated it, and this has happened a lot in the short time since this story came out;
or 2. Taylor Grey Mayer knows something about how search engines work.

The book itself is a real thing, I'm pleased to say.
   38. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: August 13, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4207623)
What a weird story. Actual Major League Baseball organizations take the time to bilk people at $500 a pop for a fake job fair? I mean I understand exploiting a community's fandom to get a free stadium but even at this micro level they are still trying to get over. I wouldn't have guessed it, but I guess I'm not surprised.
   39. zonk Posted: August 13, 2012 at 09:07 PM (#4207625)


Who cares what you think, Captain StuffeyShirt? Her letter is likely to get her a slew of interviews, and is likely her best route to an MLB job. Even if most employers are turned off by her response or language, there will be more than a few intrigued by her willingness to speak honestly and openly to a potential employer. Maybe where you work you think getting ahead means telling your boss they are always right, but th best organizations prosper because employees are rewarded, not punished, for speaking their minds.

As a CEO and a division head, I despised anyone who wouldn't speak honestly to me or who would intimidate any employee from giving their honest opinion.


I wish there were more like you --

Unfortunately, this sort of thinking is very rare. Sure, there's a line between being a pain in the ass and constructive disagreement and/or criticism - but in my experience, most executives blur it far too far towards 'comity'.

Especially in large organizations, critical thinking takes a back seat to happy talk.

Padres dodged a bullet here. Not sure why she didn't get a look see with all the qualifications on here resume. But not knowing the quality of the competing resumes, it's tough to say. But if I were the person responsible to make the hire, after seeing that letter, and reading more about her, no way I would take the risk. There just seems to be "issues" there.


I suppose there's an element of unprofessionalism in the response - but then, I think using pro forma applicant rejections to sell a $500 scam is at least as unprofessional... and the Padres fired the first shot here. I suppose "suck my dick" isn't something I could ever see a direct report using to respond to any given situation, but at the same time - I have zero problem with anyone reporting to me calling bullshit when bullshit ought to be called. I don't want drones and I don't want kiss asses. I want people who think critically and aren't afraid to call out nonsense for what it is.

Again, I get that there's a line between making that point diplomatically -- but sometimes you don't get more flies with honey than vinegar. I've been in plenty of situations where far too much time and far too many resources are wasted because the point being made diplomatically falls on deaf ears. Sometimes, it's perfectly appropriate to pound the table and colorfully make the point in way that sticks.

My rule of thumb in such situations with my own direct reports come down to two simple things: Most importantly, were you right; and secondly, did you at least try to make the point diplomatically first.

Of course, I also try to make clear in such situations that while I prefer candor to complacent acceptance of bad ideas/decisions/etc - it can be a career stunting action.
   40. asinwreck Posted: August 13, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4207635)
From time to time, I hire people. I hire them in a ridiculously competitive field where I know several qualified candidates (in terms of education and on-the-job experience) for each position will get rejected -- most without even getting an interview. This leads to inevitable -- and occasionally voiced -- frustration on the part of the applicants. Some labor markets are cruel, not due to the whims of the employer.

With that in mind, I loved her email. Companies who try to scam applicants out of their money deserve to be spoken to that way. Is John Moores hurting so badly from his divorce that he's trying to milk every possible dollar out of the Padres before he finally pockets the cash the O'Malley group is throwing his way? Given his abysmal taste in hairpieces, my guess is he may need walking around money.
   41. Moeball Posted: August 13, 2012 at 09:57 PM (#4207653)
What a weird story. Actual Major League Baseball organizations take the time to bilk people at $500 a pop for a fake job fair? I mean I understand exploiting a community's fandom to get a free stadium but even at this micro level they are still trying to get over. I wouldn't have guessed it, but I guess I'm not surprised.


As a former Padres season ticket holder, I've had extensive dealings with the Padres ticket office over the years. Nothing about this story surprises me as far as the Padres trying to manipulate people for a few extra bucks. Petco Park is a nice park as far as the field goes - the way the fans are treated, however, is truly abysmal.

For example:

1)This is the team that tried starting a "Founder's Club" for season ticket orders when Petco Park first opened. There were various levels - $5K, $7K or $10K would get you access to purchase various levels of tickets. These weren't the ticket prices, mind you - these were fees being charged just to get the rights to purchase tickets. This didn't last long as the fan base lambasted the team quite vocally about this. And the team was actually surprised at the fans' reaction.

2)Toyota Terrace is an exclusive part of Petco Park where everything is pricier - tickets, restaurants, the whole shebang. And, yes, the employees working there are not at all shy about letting you know that the fatter your wallet is, the better person they think you are. After all, only certain people deserve to be there.

3)When Petco Park first opened, the Omni hotel next door had a ramp going directly across to a gate at the park on an upper level. It was way faster to go in to the park through the Omni and the ramp than to go through the regular gates and since my seats were on the upper level anyways this was quite convenient. It was also much faster to take the ramp getting out of the park to the trolley station going home. This lasted about 2 or 3 years I guess. Then the Padres announced that only guests of the hotel - please provide some evidence that you're staying there (ahem, shall we say - that you can afford to stay there) - would be allowed to use the ramp. Gots to keep the riff-raff out, I suppose. Then one day I was at a game not in my usual seats, but in some pricey seats as a guest of a bank I do business with. Showed my pricey ticket stub on the way out "Oh, but of course you can use the special ramp."

4)Then there is the absurdly expensive excrement that gets passed off as ballpark food. Now, I realize a lot of other parks also have lousy food but at least some places have a sense of atmosphere to make up for it. If you go to Wrigley you can have a blast out on Waveland or other streets right outside the park. If you go to Fenway there are all kinds of vendors on Lansdowne right outside the park where you can get better eats to smuggle in to the game than what you'll find inside. And it's so much fun to be there. It has atmosphere. Petco Park doesn't have atmosphere, it has - well, I don't even know what to call it. Let's just say that fly balls aren't the only things that die in the dead air there. Yet they keep passing out surveys asking us to tell them how good the food is or how great the fan experience is. Are they kidding? Trust me, they don't really want to know what I think.

Well, I realize I've ranted on enough about this. I'm getting to sound like a grouchy old geezer so I guess the only thing missing is a good "get off my lawn!"


   42. Moeball Posted: August 13, 2012 at 10:25 PM (#4207669)
I've been in plenty of situations where far too much time and far too many resources are wasted because the point being made diplomatically falls on deaf ears. Sometimes, it's perfectly appropriate to pound the table and colorfully make the point in way that sticks.


OK, I had to share a true story when I saw the above line. I once had a situation where we were trying to do a system conversion at work and I wasn't feeling that it was going well. But when I tried asking my people what the issues were and what we could do to make it better, everyone was clamming up. "Oh, the conversion is going just fine." Well I knew something sounded fishy about that. Finally one guy said "Oh, that's bull****, it's not going fine, there are all kinds of problems with this." Everyone acted shocked that he had actually said that - surely he had just committed career suicide! But, once he had broken the ice, I finally got some people to speak up about what specifically was causing them trouble on this conversion and we were actually able to have a rational discussion about how to deal with the difficulties.

Eventually we got through the conversion and things got a bit smoother. Came time to write performance evaluations and the guy who had spoken up in that meeting was one of my best performers so I recommended him for a promotion and a raise to go along with it. HR (stands for "Head up Rear" as far as I'm concerned) tells me I cannot get the promotion and raise for this guy approved until I include something in his performance review about how it was totally inappropriate for him to use foul language in that one meeting. Are you kidding me? It was his outburst that was the turning point getting that meeting headed in a useful direction. But they refused to waver on the subject. No reprimand, no promotion. So I gave him a dressing down for helping the department become more productive. Go figure.

Gee, I wonder why I don't work there anymore?
   43. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 13, 2012 at 10:42 PM (#4207678)
Gee, I wonder why I don't work there anymore?


Which Gannett newspaper was it?
   44. shock Posted: August 13, 2012 at 10:52 PM (#4207691)
"Thank you for applying. We have had literally hundreds of applicants, so it's tough to choose someone. If you take this course that we're offering, it will likely make your resume stand out amongst the pile that we currently have and improve your chances of getting a job with us in the future."

"Go #### yourself."

"Oh, okay. Thank God there are 100 people who aren't ass-hats that we can hire to do this simple job. Have a nice day."
   45. shock Posted: August 13, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4207695)
From time to time, I hire people. I hire them in a ridiculously competitive field where I know several qualified candidates (in terms of education and on-the-job experience) for each position will get rejected -- most without even getting an interview. This leads to inevitable -- and occasionally voiced -- frustration on the part of the applicants. Some labor markets are cruel, not due to the whims of the employer.


I think it's BETTER to get rejected without an interview. I applied for a job early last year where, after 2 rounds of interviews and a BS "personality test" I had to take that was over 100 questions, I got emailed a form-letter-rejection saying they're moving on. Now THAT pissed me right the #### off, as I had spent several hours of my life jumping through hoops for those clowns and they can't even be bothered to give me an explanation.

Rejected without an interview, meh, no harm no foul.
   46. AROM Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:01 PM (#4207699)
she’s been offered a slew of job opportunities and even a few marriage proposals.


Some men sure are stupid. She's not bad looking, but I can only imagine the debt level - 31 years old, has been working on graduate degrees for some time, incomplete law school, was trying to live off her loans. Maybe Yahoo can get a hold of her next time they want to run a horror story on the student loan bubble.
   47. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4207712)
The heart wants what the heart wants.
   48. Lassus Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4207713)
I absolutely understand all the criticisms of this letter. I even agree with some of them, completely.

#44, though, is what causes me to find letters like this awesome.
   49. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:20 PM (#4207716)
So #41, you're suggesting that rich people get treated better then the rest of us? Well I am shocked! Next thing I hear will be that all the rich dudes mostly end up with the pretty girls...
   50. shock Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4207722)
#44, though, is what causes me to find letters like this awesome.


?

I get the, uh, "tastelessness" of the letter. I also get how annoying it is to get form letters. But I also don't really see the problem of offering interested applicants a program to train them before they start and help them get the job. Yes, it costs money. Running programs costs money, go figure.
   51. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:36 PM (#4207726)
1)This is the team that tried starting a "Founder's Club" for season ticket orders when Petco Park first opened. There were various levels - $5K, $7K or $10K would get you access to purchase various levels of tickets. These weren't the ticket prices, mind you - these were fees being charged just to get the rights to purchase tickets. This didn't last long as the fan base lambasted the team quite vocally about this. And the team was actually surprised at the fans' reaction.
i think that is really popular with football teams. i know the eagles required season ticket holders to pay thousands of dollars for "stadium builders licenses" and "personal seat licenses" and i know they did that at the new meadowlands stadium and probably the new cowboys stadiums as well.
   52. zachtoma Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:38 PM (#4207727)
I get the, uh, "tastelessness" of the letter. I also get how annoying it is to get form letters. But I also don't really see the problem of offering interested applicants a program to train them before they start and help them get the job. Yes, it costs money. Running programs cost money, go figure.


So you truly can't understand how insulting it is to ask someone you've rejected dozens of times - someone you know doesn't have a job - to pay you $500 for just a chance at getting a job? To expect that you could hold the slightest hint of employment out in front of them and ask them to jump? I guess some people have to be able to relate more closely to the form-letter write, but, jeez- the problem is not that the letter is "annoying", it's that it is a transparent ploy to take advantage of desperate people. It might be economically rational to do so, but that doesn't make it defensible. Unfortunately, we are now living in a hollowed-out shell of a world where economic rationality constitutes the entirety of our ethics, so there will always be people crawling out of the woodwork to defend exactly that.
   53. Tripon Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:44 PM (#4207730)

I think it's BETTER to get rejected without an interview. I applied for a job early last year where, after 2 rounds of interviews and a BS "personality test" I had to take that was over 100 questions, I got emailed a form-letter-rejection saying they're moving on. Now THAT pissed me right the #### off, as I had spent several hours of my life jumping through hoops for those clowns and they can't even be bothered to give me an explanation.


I think I want the interview, with the caveat that whomever is conducting the interview is serious about hiring me. I'm been looking for a full time teaching job for years and the constant non-feedback from prospective employers drives me nuts.
   54. zachtoma Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4207736)
Yeah, the other terrible thing about job searches is that people seem to find it easier to just ignore you than to simply tell you 'no'. If you took the time to apply, I think you are owed at least that - simple, direct communication, it doesn't have to be more than a one-line email, but to just ignore a person... the level of disrespect that conveys is staggering, and horrifying to think that it is so commonplace.
   55. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4207737)
i know they did that at the new meadowlands stadium and probably the new cowboys stadiums as well.

Oh, you better believe Smiley Jones isn't going to turn down other people's money.

The Founders All-Access tickets is the most expensive Dallas Cowboys Ticket option. These tickets cost $150,000 for the PSL and $3400 for the season ticket.

The Club Seat tickets are broken down into three separate pricing categories, red, green and yellow. They all have a season ticket price of $3400, but the PSL varies in price. Cowboys Stadium Red is the cheapest at $16,000, Green is next at $35,000 and Yellow is the most expensive seat license at $50,000 per seat.

The Loge Seat tickets cost $12,000 for the PSL and $1200 for the season ticket.

The Reserved Seat tickets are the least expensive Dallas Cowboys Ticket options and are broken down into four categories:
Cowboys Stadium HDTVSilver Corners seat tickets have a personal seat license that costs $5000 and a season ticket price of $1250.
LL Corners/Upper Sides seat tickets have a personal seat license that costs $000 (sic) and a season ticket price of $990.
Lower EZ/Upper EZ seat tickets have a personal seat license that costs $4000 and a season ticket price of $890.
Upper Sides seat tickets have a personal seat license that costs $2000 and a season ticket price of $790.
   56. shock Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:55 PM (#4207739)
So you truly can't understand how insulting it is to ask someone you've rejected dozens of times to pay you $500 for just a chance at getting a job? To expect that you could hold the slightest hint of employment out in front of them and ask them to jump? I guess some people have to be able to relate more closely to the form-letter write, but, jeez- the problem is not that the letter is "annoying", it's that it is a transparent ploy to take advantage of desperate people. It might be economically rational to do so, but that doesn't make it defensible. Unfortunately, we are now living in a hollowed-out shell of a world where economic rationality constitutes the entirety of our ethics, so there will always be people crawling out of the woodwork to defend exactly that.


Again, I understand the "tastelessness" of it, but there are two sides. On the one hand, I get the frustration of being asked to pay money to work for someone you've been trying to get a job with. But the other side of it is that these teams are swamped with resumes, probably with little to choose from the top 100. Offering a little training camp to those who really want it to help separate out the top of the crop may seem a bit evil, I get that, but I also see some merit to it. Otherwise you are probably drawing names from a hat.

And on a sidenote, I don't really agree that these are necessarily "desperate people." Obviously, working for an MLB team is a hugely popular choice. If money weren't an issue, probably all of us would work for one, right? If anything, a lot of these applicants probably already have money and want to get an in in the sports world, don't you think? If I am desperate for a job, I'm applying at wal mart and the grocery store, not holding out hope for the Mariners to come calling. The Mariners would be my first choice if I was already set financially, however. Specifically, this woman doesn't sound particularly "desperate," what with her extensive education and years of executing international events, and all. By the sounds of it, this woman considers herself vastly overqualified and is only applying because she wants to work in sports.

I should note that I would probably have the same response to the email that she did.
   57. shock Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:56 PM (#4207740)
I think I want the interview, with the caveat that whomever is conducting the interview is serious about hiring me. I'm been looking for a full time teaching job for years and the constant non-feedback from prospective employers drives me nuts.


Obviously, feedback is better than no-feedback. But what I mean is, given the choice between no interview and no feedback, and 3 interviews followed by no feedback, I think I'd take the former. Although there is value to the interview experience,of course.
   58. phredbird Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4207743)
agree with zachtoma. extremely poor form for the pads to try to hit up someone for money whom they otherwise couldn't be bothered to give the time of day.
   59. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4207744)
Again, I understand the "tastelessness" of it, but there are two sides. On the one hand, I get the frustration of being asked to pay money to work for someone you've been trying to get a job with. But the other side of it is that these teams are swamped with resumes, probably with little to choose from the top 100. Offering a little training camp to those who really want it to help separate out the top of the crop may seem a bit evil, I get that, but I also see some merit to it. Otherwise you are probably drawing names from a hat.


Let's also keep in mind that those seminars are highly unlikely to matter.
   60. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4207749)
"Thank you for applying. We have had literally hundreds of applicants, so it's tough to choose someone. If you take this course that we're offering, it will likely make your resume stand out amongst the pile that we currently have and improve your chances of getting a job with us in the future."

Wow! I can pay for a course that has no purpose other than to improve my chances at this one job from 1 in 500 to 1 in 100! What a deal!

"Oh, okay. Thank God there are 100 people who aren't ass-hats that we can hire to do this simple job. Have a nice day."

You're only going to hire one of them anyway, so all I did was decrease my chances from 1 in 500 to 0 in 500. Who cares?
   61. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:11 AM (#4207755)
But I also don't really see the problem of offering interested applicants a program to train them before they start and help them get the job. Yes, it costs money. Running programs costs money, go figure.

These programs have one purpose, and that's to line the pockets of the people running them. For people trying to get low-paying entry-level jobs, $500 is absurd.
   62. Tripon Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:15 AM (#4207757)
But I also don't really see the problem of offering interested applicants a program to train them before they start and help them get the job. Yes, it costs money. Running programs costs money, go figure.


So you're going to ask the people who you probably won't hire to fund the program? That takes some balls. Why is it that companies don't want to pay for training?
   63. shock Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:18 AM (#4207760)
Wow! I can pay for a course that has no purpose other than to improve my chances at this one job from 1 in 500 to 1 in 100! What a deal!

"Oh, okay. Thank God there are 100 people who aren't ass-hats that we can hire to do this simple job. Have a nice day."

You're only going to hire one of them anyway, so all I did was decrease my chances from 1 in 500 to 0 in 500. Who cares?


Well, that's a decision for the applicant to make based on her situation. For the person who is retired and pensioned and just wants really badly to work at PETCO, maybe it's worth it to spend a couple bucks to go 2% to 10%. We can argue about whether it's an evil thing for the Padres to do, but whether or not it's a sound choice for the applicant depends on the applicant.

Obviously enough applicants are willing to pay the money for the program or else it wouldn't survive...if you're not one of the willing, no big deal.

These programs have one purpose, and that's to line the pockets of the people running them. For people trying to get low-paying entry-level jobs, $500 is absurd.


Once again, let's stop acting like the Padres are the last place on earth anyone wants to work for and they are conning out desperate folks from their only chance at work. The Padres are, obviously, an immensely popular place to work. People are applying for jobs not out of some last-ditch desperate act, but because they think it would be cool to work for a baseball team. So while I agree there is something distasteful with what the Padres are doing, let's try to
   64. PreservedFish Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:25 AM (#4207764)
If you took the time to apply, I think you are owed at least that - simple, direct communication, it doesn't have to be more than a one-line email, but to just ignore a person... the level of disrespect that conveys is staggering, and horrifying to think that it is so commonplace.


If you RTFA, you'll see that she did get some form rejections, which I agree ought to be considered obligatory.

Let's also keep in mind that those seminars are highly unlikely to matter.


This is the crux, and I have no idea. The $500 doesn't go to the Padres, and the hiring manager doesn't say that the Padres themselves are looking to hire anybody at the seminar. Do the Padres get a kickback on the registration fee if Taylor attends? That would be dastardly.
   65. shoewizard Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4207767)
I think it's BETTER to get rejected without an interview. I applied for a job early last year where, after 2 rounds of interviews and a BS "personality test" I had to take that was over 100 questions, I got emailed a form-letter-rejection saying they're moving on. Now THAT pissed me right the #### off, as I had spent several hours of my life jumping through hoops for those clowns and they can't even be bothered to give me an explanation.


I always "fail" those personality tests myself. :(

I happen to always be an outspoken and sometimes even somewhat in your face type of person at work. I'm never afraid to take a stance that is counter to conventional wisdom, or even counter to what might be in my own best interests politically if it's what I believe is best for the company. Thats why I prefer privately owned companies to public companies. So much about public company policy is about liability and protecting from lawsuits. Smaller privately owned companies tend to be less targeted, so less anal about stupid ####.

I am the last person that would normally think negatively of someone for having the balls to stand up when something is stupid or wrong.

But in my view to write that letter the way she did showed extremely poor impulse control. How many times did she read that before firing it off ? That combined with some of the other details revealed in the article just make me feel like she is a very difficult person to deal with and has a lot of baggage that interferes with her ability to function in the workplace.

   66. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4207768)
Well, there are commenters on Deadspin with handles like "Work in Sports" who insist that these seminars are wonderfully productive events that have changed the lives of thousands, so I'm certainly convinced of their usefulness.
   67. Dale Sams Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:35 AM (#4207771)
So I gave him a dressing down for helping the department become more productive. Go figure.


Was it a Joe Madden dressing down? "Now you stop balking!! You are a bad bad bad balker!"
   68. asdf1234 Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:36 AM (#4207773)
   69. Walt Davis Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:57 AM (#4207776)
In my last such personality test, it told me that, in crunch time, I simultaneously won't listen to others becaue I think I'm right and that I'm unable to make a decision.

As you folks know, I'm not exactly shy about speaking up when I think I'm right. :-)
   70. shock Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:59 AM (#4207777)
I really believe that stuff is bullshit. Or at least 95% bullshit. Once a company stoops to that level it's only one more step down to astrology.
   71. KT's Pot Arb Posted: August 14, 2012 at 01:23 AM (#4207790)
This is the crux, and I have no idea. The $500 doesn't go to the Padres, and the hiring manager doesn't say that the Padres themselves are looking to hire anybody at the seminar. Do the Padres get a kickback on the registration fee if Taylor attends? That would be dastardly.


The Padres are clearly getting paid, they ain't hosting it for charity. And they clearly aren't hiring anyone, and I doubt even giving anyone a leg up for attending. in fact I doubt they work with the company putting on the seminar outside of cashing their checks. This is how it works, Fraudulent Seminar company approaches Padres and says "we can turn that torrent of resumes that come through your doors into cold, hard cash. We'll throw a seminar for you, you promote to your pile of applications, and we split the dough 50-50."

Working for the Padres is glamorous, far more than it should be. They ate just using a shady method of monetizing their image among job seekers, and it's shameful. If you have a shortage of qualified applicants, put your time in doing your own, free training seminar, for applicants with the most potential. But if your main selection criteria is the ability and willingness to pay a $500 check, you clearly aren't looking for future star employees, you are looking for todays suckers.
   72. shoewizard Posted: August 14, 2012 at 01:27 AM (#4207792)
I once had to fly to New York, and had interviews with 5 different people from a single company over a two day period, had great references, was completely qualified for the job, and they approached me, (through a headhunter) trying to poach me out of the company I was working for where I wasn't doing badly. The last "formality" was to go to some shrinks office in midtown to take the damn personality test.

Two weeks later the headhunter FINALLY calls me to tell me there was "something" in the personality test they didn't like so they wouldn't be hiring me.

Not surprisingly these idiots went chapter 11 two years later. ;)
   73. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: August 14, 2012 at 01:36 AM (#4207794)
I interviewed for a new job recently. Had a two-hour+ lunch interview with the hiring manager, and he left by saying he definitely wanted me to talk with his sr manager when he would be in town the next week.

In the meantime, corporate HR sent me a link to their personality survey to take. After completing it, my next correspondence from them was a one-line brush off that they had decided to "go in a different direction" to fill the position.

Perhaps I need to quit looking for a new job and set up my own company scamming employers on the "value" of outsourcing their pre-hiring screening.
   74. KT's Pot Arb Posted: August 14, 2012 at 02:24 AM (#4207804)
Two weeks later the headhunter FINALLY calls me to tell me there was "something" in the personality test they didn't like so they wouldn't be hiring me.


I would never take a personality test, or any other.

When I was a 25 year old engineer I interviewed with a gaming company (while employed at a Mac software company and had shipped some commercial software). The company already had some strikes due to location, and the layout of the office. But after giving me the tour the CEO interviewed me briefly then handed me a "programming test", and offered to let use his office for a half hour to fill it out. I immediately handed the test back to him and told him it wouldn't be necessary.

A week later I accepted a job at Apple.

Saying no to stupid requests can be a positive. First, if a company requires stupid #### like that just to get hired, just imagine what stupid #### they will make you do once you are an employee. BTW: If an HR troll ever asks me to write up a valued subordinate for using foul language in order to give them a promotion, my first response will be pull your head out of your ass before I go up the chain until you and every one who thinks like you in HR is fired.

But more importantly, force them to value you. If you truly had great interviews, then tell them to get off the pot and make a decision. Don't let them use some half baked pseudo science tests to make the decision for them. Every single girl knows the power of playing hard to get, every job seeker should as well.
   75. shock Posted: August 14, 2012 at 02:31 AM (#4207805)
I don't think it's a "stupid request" to ask applicants to write tests of their job-related skills. I wish more companies were willing to do that. Job interviews without them are based almost entirely on whether the interviewer instinctively likes you, which can be important but is also at least kind of bull-####. Programming specifically has had many problems with programmers who can't .... program and would fail a very simple test despite working as a "programmer" for years. There's a certain thought-process and problem-solving ability that should be sought out and is difficult to determine without a test.

In my most recent position I was asked to write a simple quiz, and was happy to show my skills.
   76. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: August 14, 2012 at 04:03 AM (#4207810)

Saying no to stupid requests can be a positive. First, if a company requires stupid #### like that just to get hired, just imagine what stupid #### they will make you do once you are an employee.


Winner! That said, obviously if your resume is very thin and the job market is very tight, take the damn test. If you have any kind of resume, or self respect, and somebody wants to have you take a test, pass.

If you can't ask probing enough questions as an interviewer to figure out whether an applicant knows their ####, get somebody else to do the interviewing because you suck.
   77. KT's Pot Arb Posted: August 14, 2012 at 04:15 AM (#4207811)
Programming specifically has had many problems with programmers who can't .... program and would fail a very simple test despite working as a "programmer" for years. There's a certain thought-process and problem-solving ability that should be sought out and is difficult to determine without a test.


You can ask for samples of their work.You can ask them how they implemented a specific feature, and why they chose that implementation. You can treat them like an adult and have a probing discussion about the craft you share, or treat them like a child and rate them based on a score from a generic test someone else designed.

If you knw how to program, or any specific skilled occupation, then you know how to ask questions to determine how good someone else is likely to be at it. If you end up hiring someone who can't program, it means likely neither can you.
   78. Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 05:05 AM (#4207812)
"She interned at Major League Soccer?!? Stop the search, we've found the perfect candidate!" -- Nobody, ever.

That said, the letter's amusing, and as someone who's about to get laid off and has been jerked around pretty badly by potential employers over the past couple weeks, it struck a bit of a nerve with me.
   79. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:27 AM (#4207850)
"She interned at Major League Soccer?!? Stop the search, we've found the perfect candidate!" -- Nobody, ever.


It'd probably qualify as relevant experience for an entry-level position in minor league or independent baseball.
   80. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:28 AM (#4207851)
I can't wait til law firms and hedge fund companies start charging applicants fees to apply. Or do they already? Its been awhile since I applied for a law firm job.
   81. JJ1986 Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4207852)
I don't think there's any problem with the letter, but it seems like it should have been written by someone who actually had an impressive resume. "working towards becoming an agent", "overseeing the execution of national and international events", "internship with Major League Soccer", and "volunteer(ing) at a minor league ballpark in my hometown" all sound like fluff and the kind of fluff that someone uses without much actual experience or qualification. She also seems to imply that she is still a law student, which would be simply a lie.
   82. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:33 AM (#4207855)
She also seems to imply that she is still a law student, which would be simply a lie.


But since lying is a skill that's taught in law school ...
   83. Bob Tufts Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:34 AM (#4207856)
Whatever you do, if they pull out an E-Meter as part of the job interview, say goodbye.

   84. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:34 AM (#4207857)
someone who's about to get laid off and has been jerked around pretty badly by potential employers over the past couple weeks,


Goddammmit -- sorry to hear that; there but for the grace of fate go most of us, I suspect.
   85. zonk Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:41 AM (#4207862)
Yeah, the other terrible thing about job searches is that people seem to find it easier to just ignore you than to simply tell you 'no'. If you took the time to apply, I think you are owed at least that - simple, direct communication, it doesn't have to be more than a one-line email, but to just ignore a person... the level of disrespect that conveys is staggering, and horrifying to think that it is so commonplace.


I think it should go further than that.

Our company recently sourced a big chunk of our initial applicant screening and a lot of the administration around hiring, theoretically, to save the hiring manager time...

For an open position last year, I had a number of internal applicants - several of whom were really good fits, but the ultimate hire just fit best. A couple of the rejected applicants were definitely possibilities for future spots and if nothing else, they were valuable for the company in general. The 'recruiter', however, was charged with handling the "sorry, thanks for your time" -- and despite the fact that I passed on all my notes, complete with some tailored suggestions for each candidate regarding areas they came up a bit short and for the internal applicants, specific suggestions for programs, projects, and tasks that they ought to talk to their current manager about involvement for career growth -- all the rejectees got generic pro forma rejections (I found out talking with one of the internal applicants). Nothing from my suggestions made it to them.

Consequently, I went around the recruiter and sent my suggestions directly to the applicants. And, of course, I got dinged in my OWN annual review this past year for failing to adhere to company hiring policy (Stupidly on my part, I had taken the recruiter to task for not passing on my recommendations directly and informed her that I had done it myself).

I understand that there are fairly significant compliance issues around hiring, especially when it comes to internal applicants. However, I'm not an idiot and it's not as if I was suggesting breast augmentation or something.

From the applicant perspective, I think it's important to let them know some specific reasons they weren't chosen - and if they weren't close, to tell them that. From an employer perspective, companies make such a big deal about succession planning, the cost of up and running for external hires, etc on paper that it's just sheer madness that quality employees who lack experience or expertise in a few areas aren't given that information for purposes of their own career growth.

   86. Bob Tufts Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:44 AM (#4207866)
But since lying is a skill that's taught in law school ...


No - law school admission offices (which also charge you to apply) determine whether you already developed your ability to lie during college. They look for things like holding a position in student government and whether you were a politics major. Undergraduate pre-law courses are also a plus, as they designed to weed out those with the veracity gene.

Law school builds on this foundation by spending three years helping you say outrageous things with a straight face in public.
   87. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:45 AM (#4207869)
From the applicant perspective, I think it's important to let them know some specific reasons they weren't chosen - and if they weren't close, to tell them that.


No kidding. I still harbor a slight grudge over interviewing with AP in Little Rock in '01 & Nashville in '02 & never hearing a word from them. (OTOH, the Thai place I went to with my interviewers in Nashville offered free refills of Thai iced tea, so the drive up was well worth it ...)
   88. Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:46 AM (#4207870)
Goddammmit -- sorry to hear that; there but for the grace of fate go most of us, I suspect.
Thanks. I'm trying to be philosophical about it - I've sort of felt like I've been dodging the ax for the better part of a decade as a relatively highly paid employee of an organization that was losing money, but it's tough to dodge when they decide to shut the entire place down. There's a decent severance package and I'm applying for anything and everything within 50 miles that's even tangentially related to my degree, so I'll probably be okay.

I don't want to get too specific because I post under my real name and I know employers google prospective employees, so I'll just say that last week I was very strongly led to believe I was about to get an offer from a different company, then out of the blue, at the last second, was told the position had been filled. Argh.
   89. flournoy Posted: August 14, 2012 at 09:49 AM (#4207872)
That said, the letter's amusing, and as someone who's about to get laid off and has been jerked around pretty badly by potential employers over the past couple weeks, it struck a bit of a nerve with me.


I'm in a similar boat. I had an interview last Wednesday, which I thought went well, and I've yet to hear back. I realize that it's been less than a week, but that seems like a really long time when in this situation. The interview involved taking a test exactly like the one described in 74-77, by the way, which I gladly took, and am happy to report that I nailed it.
   90. shoewizard Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4207890)
it's not as if I was suggesting breast augmentation or something.


Isn't it ironic that you would get in a lot off trouble for the one suggestion that would probably have the most positive impact on career advancement ? Or maybe not
   91. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:25 AM (#4207899)
Last summer an attorney who was a friend of a friend heard that I was looking for a job and wanted to speak with me. After we met, he decided that I was a good guy and he would help me in my job search. A few weeks later there was an opening at his law firm and so he recommended me to one of the firm’s hiring partners. A couple days after that I did a phone interview with the hiring partner and it went well and I was told I would receive a call-back in the coming weeks. At my call-back I interviewed with 3 partners and everyone seemed to like me but they decided to go with someone with someone else because that person had “more experience.” I was initially upset about it because I felt like if the experience demonstrated on my resume was insufficient then why bring me in and waste my time. Anyway, in the same e-mail where I did not get the initial job the hiring partner also told me they would like me to interview with their other NY office.

Since I was unemployed at the time, I quickly agreed. The second office was smaller and so I only interviewed with 1 partner who proceeded to tell me how much she loved the associate who gave my initial recommendation and that she thought my resume/qualifications were outstanding for the duration of the interview. She also said that the only thing that gave her reason for pause was that I did not have my bar results yet and so she was leery of a situation where she extends an offer, it turns out I failed the bar and I then have to juggle work/studying for the bar. A few days pass and I speak to the associate who initially recommended me and he tells me how she raved to him about the interview so I start to feel good about my chances. Over the course of the next 4-6 weeks I would send multiple e-mails and phone calls to this partner/firm without ever receiving so much as a “I know you reached out to me, I’m busy will get back to you when I can” regarding my employment status. Almost a year later and I still haven’t even received as much as a form rejection letter. Thankfully, I’ve found steady employment since, but that experience still pisses me off. Whenever I run into the associate who initially recommended me he still apologizes for the whole thing.

TL;DR: People with hiring power and the job search/recruitment process are generally terrible.
   92. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4207907)
I was initially upset about it because I felt like if the experience demonstrated on my resume was insufficient then why bring me in and waste my time.


I don't get that either. When I first came out of college I landed a few interviews and it really seemed more like they wanted to get to know me, what my goals were, if I was ambitious, if I was an easygoing guy that could get along with others - that sort of thing. The qualifications already spoke for themselves.

I have begun looking for new jobs lately, and interviewed recently for a job by someone with far less experience than me (she told me she had been there a year after graduating from law school). I didn't hear for two months, until finally I got a letter saying I didn't have the qualifications. You knew my qualifications, why did you bring me in?
   93. phredbird Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4207911)
Thats why I prefer privately owned companies to public companies. So much about public company policy is about liability and protecting from lawsuits. Smaller privately owned companies tend to be less targeted, so less anal about stupid ####.


not in my experience. i was going to supply a long anecdote about some recent stuff going down in my own workplace, but now i think i better just leave it at that. small business owners are extremely nervous about exposure to things like wrongful termination lawsuits. extremely nervous.
   94. phredbird Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:51 AM (#4207918)
I'm in a similar boat. I had an interview last Wednesday, which I thought went well, and I've yet to hear back.


i was going to try to be humorous here, but ... i don't know how black your sense of humor is.

i have interviewed about a dozen applicants for the opening in my dept., and have encouraged all of them to follow up with a phone call within the week. i know it puts a burden on them in the sense that they have to pluck up their courage and call me with the real possibility of hearing bad news, but i need to know their level of commitment. especially since some of the applicants i've interviewed did not look very serious at all. the last three guys i interviewed did not show up in a suit and tie. not even just shirt and tie. and one of them was actually wearing a straw hat -- kind of a huck finn number -- which he did not remove for the entire interview. my boss is kind of a stickler for business dress. its lucky he wasn't in the office when this guy showed up, he would have just kicked him out.

maybe i'm out of touch. i haven't actually applied for a job in years (knock wood). does today's generation of job applicants feel it necessary to put on a suit and tie (or something dressy/business equivalent you are a woman) for an interview?

let me put it this way. my top candidate was the best dressed applicant by far. her resume was excellent too, but it didn't hurt that it was apparent to me that she took the interview very seriously.
   95. flournoy Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4207921)
Well I did wear a suit and tie for the interview, and I followed up with an email later in the day. I plan to do some further following up tomorrow if necessary.
   96. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4207926)
does today's generation of job applicants feel it necessary to put on a suit and tie (or something dressy/business equivalent you are a woman) for an interview?


Good question. This came up about a week ago when a friend at my former newspaper (here in Montgomery) told me that a guy from my newspaper before that (in Arkansas) had interviewed for the Auburn beat & didn't even bother to tuck in his shirt. Good grief. I mean, I stand on ceremony & formality probably less than just about anyone here ... but still.
   97. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4207927)
There's always something. You're not following up, you're being a pest, if you write formally, they want colloquially, you're under-dressed, you're overdressed, you're too funny, you're too stiff, you're over-qualified, you're underqualified, you don't know the right people, you've worked too many jobs, you're worked too few, you're too early, you're too late, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Powerball seems a more sane pursuit. At least you know your odds there.
   98. The Good Face Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4207930)
I was initially upset about it because I felt like if the experience demonstrated on my resume was insufficient then why bring me in and waste my time.


Well, if you were a recommended candidate, you may have been a "courtesy" interview, where they had no real intention of hiring you, but simply brought you in as a courtesy to whatever executive recommended you. Alternatively, you may have been an good candidate from an experience perspective but the hiring decision maker simply found another candidate who's background and experience was a better fit for the job he was filling. That happened recently to me where I had a guy in that I really liked. His experience was good, but he had a few holes... nothing he couldn't pick up in a few months on the job though. Then another candidate came in with a background perfectly tailored to what we needed. She got the job, but I don't think we wasted the other guy's time. He was a legit candidate who could have wound up with the job if the other candidate had done worse in her interviews.

Honestly, I'm kinda surprised you got any explanation at all for why you didn't get the job.
   99. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4207932)
Honestly, I'm kinda surprised you got any explanation at all for why you didn't get the job.

I am also surprised you were treated like a human being.

I'm not being sarcastic.
   100. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4207933)
i have interviewed about a dozen applicants for the opening in my dept., and have encouraged all of them to follow up with a phone call within the week.


That's great. I wish I had that kind of responsiveness from the people I've applied with.

I interviewed with a company a couple of months ago, one of those where you spend the afternoon in a series of half-hour meetings with various people from the department. After a couple of weeks, I hadn't heard anything, so I sent the hiring manager an email just asking where they were in the hiring process. I never heard a word from him, but two days later, I got a call from an HR person - in the corporate headquarters 500 miles away, mind you - saying she had heard from this hiring manager that I had asked about the position, and that they had already decided to hire someone else. Why the guy was too chicken to even send me an email is beyond me.

As anyone who has been job-hunting in the past few years knows, the hiring process is downright heinous. It's this weird combination of people who don't give a crap about you, but are still too timid to be honest with you. It gets to the point where just getting a call from someone to say you didn't get the job feels like a victory.
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