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Wednesday, January 15, 2014

Abraham: A-Rod attorney denies attacking Ortiz

UPDATE, 10:45 p.m.: Tacopina, via an email to the Globe, denied he was alluding to Ortiz in his comments. But he would not say who he was referring to.

It is unclear what other Boston athlete fits the description given by Tacopina.

...Red Sox slugger David Ortiz is one of the few major league players to voice support for Alex Rodriguez in recent months.

Ortiz took Rodriguez out for dinner in Boston late last season after the controversial Yankees third baseman was mercilessly booed at Fenway Park. Ortiz even criticized teammate Ryan Dempster for throwing at Rodriguez.

In December, Ortiz invited Rodriguez to his charity event in the Dominican Republic.

So much for that goodwill. On Tuesday, Rodriguez’s lead attorney seemed to cast aspersions on Ortiz during an interview with ESPN Radio.

Joe Tacopina said he would not name other players accused of using performance-enhancing drugs, “but some of them are God-like in Boston right now.”

The host, Colin Cowherd, did not challenge Tacopina’s accusation.

Thanks to Vance.

Repoz Posted: January 15, 2014 at 06:16 AM | 72 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox, yankees

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   1. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: January 15, 2014 at 06:31 AM (#4639265)
If it is not Ortiz, then it is probably Bobby Valentine.
   2. villageidiom Posted: January 15, 2014 at 07:01 AM (#4639266)
Who else is "god-like in Boston" and has been accused of using PEDs? Who meets that criteria?

David Ortiz
Manny Ramirez?

Who might qualify for the former but not the latter?

Dustin Pedroia
Pedro Martinez
Tom Brady
Curt Schilling?
Jon Lester?
Kevin Youkilis?

Unless Tacopina is just blowing smoke to make his client appear an unfair target, I think that is the candidate list. And if he denies he is talking about Ortiz, I am assuming he is talking about Ramirez, whose godlike status in Boston is questionable if not laughable right now. Once upon a time he might have had that status, but not now.
   3. ursus arctos Posted: January 15, 2014 at 07:28 AM (#4639272)
Zdeno Chara
   4. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: January 15, 2014 at 07:42 AM (#4639274)
Unless Tacopina is just blowing smoke to make his client appear an unfair target


I was unfortunately listening to that segment. Tacopina was just reaching for examples of how other players have not admitted use even after there were articles or whatnot written about positive tests. Tacopina was giving credit to ARod for coming out in 2009, Cowherd said that was a joke as ARod had to come out because of Selena Robert's book, Tacopina then said his bit about others not admitting to usage, such as the player who is god-like in Boston.

Cowherd seemed representative of the slightly-informed fan - arguing that it doesn't matter if Bosch is scum because this is not a criminal case, so high standards for witnesses need not apply, it's only arbitration, as agreed to in the CBA. He completely disregards and never mentions that ARod's penalty is not covered by the CBA - giving MLB a complete pass for violating it.

   5. Rennie's Tenet Posted: January 15, 2014 at 07:47 AM (#4639277)
David Ortiz
Manny Ramirez?

Dustin Pedroia
Pedro Martinez
Tom Brady
Curt Schilling?
Jon Lester?
Kevin Youkilis?


Tacopino said "some of them," so it could well be all of these.
   6. villageidiom Posted: January 15, 2014 at 07:51 AM (#4639279)
Tacopino said "some of them," so it could well be all of these.
Not if he is referring to players who have been accused of PED use but have not admitted use, per #4.
   7. John Northey Posted: January 15, 2014 at 07:58 AM (#4639280)
Has any player ever admitted to PED use who wasn't in a forced position? IE: a book, a positive test, a rumoured positive (via that 'confidential' test)? That is while still playing. For retired players, a couple have but none who had a real shot at the HOF thus no cost to doing so baseball-wise. Especially now that McGwire is a hitting coach despite his past.
   8. jobu Posted: January 15, 2014 at 08:03 AM (#4639284)
He meant to say "Greek-God-of-Walks-like."
   9. AROM Posted: January 15, 2014 at 08:38 AM (#4639301)
Who might qualify for the former but not the latter?


Koji Uehara
Shane Victorino
Mike Napoli
John Lackey

Ok, probably not Lackey. Even winning the deciding game of a world series doesn't make him likeable. (I know, he did it for my team too.) The others seem, if not god-like, very highly regarded in Boston right now.

But seriously, the guy is obviously referring to Ortiz, even if he won't admit it.
   10. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 15, 2014 at 08:55 AM (#4639311)
When it comes to Boston godhood, steroids would explain the physics of this.
   11. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: January 15, 2014 at 09:22 AM (#4639330)
Who really knows what Red Auerbach was smoking?
   12. Bug Selig Posted: January 15, 2014 at 09:42 AM (#4639346)
Why are we pretending that his denial has any meaning, or even potential meaning? He lies. He's a liar and a buffoon. Stop giving him the attention he craves with every cell in his diseased body.
   13. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: January 15, 2014 at 10:31 AM (#4639388)
A-Rod's narcissism and quest for attention already has him napalming the institution; the thought of him adding "Publicly rat out other roiders" to his list is positively delicious to contemplate.

Pass the popcorn.
   14. Spahn Insane Posted: January 15, 2014 at 10:36 AM (#4639390)
Man, lot of drama this offseason.
   15. Kyle S at work Posted: January 15, 2014 at 10:37 AM (#4639391)
a-rod is the worst.
   16. Dale Sams Posted: January 15, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4639397)
Maybe he meant "Play-uh". So it could be Affleck...or Wahlberg..

But seriously, where is the 'attack'? Ortiz HAS been accused of using PEDs.
   17. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 15, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4639407)
Why are we pretending that his denial has any meaning, or even potential meaning? He lies. He's a liar and a buffoon. Stop giving him the attention he craves with every cell in his diseased body


But he's got this great "jolly fat guy" persona and immaculately-sculpted facial hair. Plus you have to admit his "I don't know what was in those third-world milkshakes" defense was pretty funny and worthy of recollection.
   18. Dale Sams Posted: January 15, 2014 at 10:59 AM (#4639427)
Personally, I think "I used substances not illegal in my country (ingested IN my country) and not banned by MLB, so take your witch-hunt and blow it out your ass" is perfectly valid.
   19. Bug Selig Posted: January 15, 2014 at 11:07 AM (#4639442)
But he's got this great "jolly fat guy" persona and immaculately-sculpted facial hair. Plus you have to admit his "I don't know what was in those third-world milkshakes" defense was pretty funny and worthy of recollection.


It's funny - I wasn't clear, and I can see how it could be read either way, but I was talking about Tacopina.
   20. base ball chick Posted: January 15, 2014 at 11:08 AM (#4639444)
dale

that ain't gonna fly. people think that buying something offn the shelf at GNC that a pregnant 13 year old could legally buy and legally use is "cheating" - i am talking stuff like creatine, protein powder as well as DHEA and andro. i have had people tell me, dead serious, that creatine does what steroids to. when asked if you could just take some powder why bother to go get illegal drugs with bad side effects?

no answer there, except that there is nothing wroing with taking greenies

so buying anything legally off the shelf in the DR is a sin too
   21. if nature called, ladodger34 would listen Posted: January 15, 2014 at 11:09 AM (#4639447)
This is like when Kobe pulled the "but Shaq does it too!" defense during his little problems in CO. I love me some Kobe, but the younger Kobe and A-Rid were strikingly similar. Only difference now is that Kobe has stopped giving a damn about what people think of him. A-Rod never has.

(btw, Magic is my favorite b-ball player. Kobe isn't far behind him. But man, I would brt big money that Kobe has dabbled in PEDs)
   22. villageidiom Posted: January 15, 2014 at 11:44 AM (#4639491)
But seriously, where is the 'attack'? Ortiz HAS been accused of using PEDs.
He's suggesting Ortiz - or more accurately, someone in Boston who fits only Ortiz's profile, but isn't Ortiz, wink wink - is more deplorable than A-Rod because at least A-Rod admitted he used after being accused of it.
   23. Booey Posted: January 15, 2014 at 11:46 AM (#4639492)
(btw, Magic is my favorite b-ball player. Kobe isn't far behind him. But man, I would brt big money that Kobe has dabbled in PEDs)


I love the NBA, but I'd bet they've got at least as big a problem with PED's as baseball. And the NFL probably has as big a problem as both those sports combined.

But it only matters in baseball, of course. Biogenesis said they had records of PED purchases from players in all those other leagues too, but none of the other sports bothered to find out who those players were. Using overly aggressive means to find evidence to demonize their own stars and discredit their own sport by casting suspicion over every accomplishment seems to be unique to MLB. Selig really wants to re-write his legacy before he leaves at all costs, collateral damage be damned.
   24. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: January 15, 2014 at 11:51 AM (#4639499)
Kobe is much more loathsome than Rodriguez. Much.
   25. hee came hee seop'd he choi'd Posted: January 15, 2014 at 11:57 AM (#4639509)
How dare he cast aspersions on Dave Roberts
   26. base ball chick Posted: January 15, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4639517)
b ud selig is much more obsessed with destroying the union than the other commissioners. if you notice there haven't been any baseball STARS!!!!! since last century - except maybe jeter and The Sainted Mariano, but they aren't nearly like mcgwire, sosa and griffey were back then

bud has finally found a tool to break the union and get rid of guaranteed contracts and erase any owners mistakes

AND the public likes it too because they don't think baseball players should be paid much of anything
   27. if nature called, ladodger34 would listen Posted: January 15, 2014 at 12:11 PM (#4639532)
Kobe is much more loathsome than Rodriguez. Much.


How so? Sure, if Kobe did rape that girl, sure he is. But if not, worse than A-Rod? Hardly.
   28. Ray K Posted: January 15, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4639546)
#7 Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco
   29. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: January 15, 2014 at 12:26 PM (#4639561)
This is like when Kobe pulled the "but Shaq does it too!"


He's suggesting Ortiz

Let's be clear here - ARod did not say this about Ortiz. This was Tacopina, in an unscripted conversation with a disgusting, deplorable radio host.
   30. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: January 15, 2014 at 12:28 PM (#4639563)
But man, I would brt big money that Kobe has dabbled in PEDs)


Kobe is certainly a dick, and I too wouldn't be surprised in any way if he used PED's, but I will defend him a bit and say that he is without a doubt one of the hardest working guys in the NBA.
   31. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 15, 2014 at 12:38 PM (#4639581)
Kobe is certainly a dick, and I too wouldn't be surprised in any way if he used PED's, but I will defend him a bit and say that he is without a doubt one of the hardest working guys in the NBA.

This is what they said about Manny before he got popped. And probably a bunch of other guys too. Newsflash: One of steroids' primary benefits is that they enable you to work out longer. Being able to work harder and more than any other player is a red flag, not a defense.
   32. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 15, 2014 at 12:40 PM (#4639583)
How so? Sure, if Kobe did rape that girl, sure he is. But if not, worse than A-Rod? Hardly.

What loathsome things has Arod actually done. I am one of the most zealous anti-steroids zealots around here, but even I would hardly call it loathsome. So what did he do? Be socially kinda awkward? Make a lot of money?
   33. Manny Coon Posted: January 15, 2014 at 12:41 PM (#4639584)
I love the NBA, but I'd bet they've got at least as big a problem with PED's as baseball. And the NFL probably has as big a problem as both those sports combined.


Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if over half the NBA was using, they barely test and being big, strong, fast and recovering from injuries is just as important in basketball as anywhere else. The NBA and NFL are smart enough to not throw their players under the bus though and they know the illusion of having an effective drug policy is in most cases better than actually having one when it comes to most fans. They also don't the problem magical special record books like MLB, which can make things trickier for baseball.

Baseball fans like to go talk about how big and ripped Sosa and Bonds were, but Lebron is 6'8", completely ripped, super fast and super fit, don't see how anyone could be surprised if he used; same goes for borderline sociopath ultra competitive types like Kobe or Jordan.
   34. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: January 15, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4639594)
steroids would explain the physics of this.

And this?

Kobe is certainly a dick, and I too wouldn't be surprised in any way if he used PED's, but I will defend him a bit and say that he is without a doubt one of the hardest working guys in the NBA.

To the point of insanity, yes. It's pure talent PLUS he works harder than everybody else.
   35. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 15, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4639606)
What loathsome things has Arod actually done. I am one of the most zealous anti-steroids zealots around here, but even I would hardly call it loathsome. So what did he do? Be socially kinda awkward? Make a lot of money?


Played for the Yankees.
   36. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 15, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4639607)

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if over half the NBA was using, they barely test and being big, strong, fast and recovering from injuries is just as important in basketball as anywhere else. The NBA and NFL are smart enough to not throw their players under the bus though and they know the illusion of having an effective drug policy is in most cases better than actually having one when it comes to most fans. They also don't the problem magical special record books like MLB, which can make things trickier for baseball.


The NBA also doesn't* have a) any of it s former star players coming out and admitting to usage like Caminiti or Canseco did, or b) any major scandals gathering up big name ballplayers. Though it's obviously foolish to think that NBA players haven't used PEDs, the league's players really haven't given the public an obvious reason to start any kind of hunting for juicers expedition.

* At least that's my impression, since I don't follow the league at all.

Played for the Yankees.


That's a good point. It's nice to see you finally coming around on this irrefutable truth.
   37. AROM Posted: January 15, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4639612)
#7 Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco


Both were out of baseball when they disclosed their steroid use. Though Canseco never really retired, and probably still thinks he can play.
   38. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 15, 2014 at 01:21 PM (#4639620)
Played for the Yankees.

That's a good point. It's nice to see you finally coming around on this irrefutable truth.


Oh I've become quite good at interpreting the mindset of losers. It's a good exercise, you never know when those traits might start to seep in to your everyday actions, best to be vigilant.
   39. AROM Posted: January 15, 2014 at 01:26 PM (#4639628)
Last year Canseco played for Fort Worth, played 6 games and hit .238 (5-21) with a homer. Not sure if he was hurt most of the year, only part of the roster part time, or if he was the manager and only played himself when the roster was short handed.

The average age on the team was 24, nobody else has played in MLB. I doubt any of the players there are serious prospects but without checking each one I'm pretty sure they all played in affiliated ball or at least were good college players. I have to respect a 48 year old man playing the sport with people half his age.
   40. Booey Posted: January 15, 2014 at 01:36 PM (#4639638)
The NBA also doesn't* have a) any of it s former star players coming out and admitting to usage like Caminiti or Canseco did, or b) any major scandals gathering up big name ballplayers. Though it's obviously foolish to think that NBA players haven't used PEDs, the league's players really haven't given the public an obvious reason to start any kind of hunting for juicers expedition.

They've had a few scrubs test positive and get suspended, but no one that anyone cared about so it barely even made the news.

And like Manny alluded to, no one cares about NBA records (or even knows what they are in most cases), so no one feels the need to protect the past from the present like they do in MLB.
   41. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 15, 2014 at 01:42 PM (#4639647)
They've had a few scrubs test positive and get suspended, but no one that anyone cared about so it barely even made the news.


That's the point. If MLB's names had been limited to Manny Alexander, people would have continued to not care too much about that either. Likewise, if a former MVP (say, Steve Nash) goes to SI and says he used roids regularly, or Kevin Garnett writes a tell-all book about roid usage in the NBA, then fans/media/congress will react. Perhaps not identically to what happened in baseball, but similarly.

Yes, baseball fans connect with the game's history more than the fans of other sports. But that's just one of many reasons why the issue was treated the way it was. The idea that it's all about protecting Roger Maris or Hank, as is often suggested, seems kind of simplistic.

   42. Flack42 Posted: January 15, 2014 at 01:42 PM (#4639648)
"God-like" in Boston and steroids? Maybe Ted Williams' cryogenically frozen head.
   43. Moeball Posted: January 15, 2014 at 01:56 PM (#4639661)
Man, lot of drama this offseason.


They should carry this on the Soap Opera channel. Might get my wife to watch!

Kobe is certainly a dick, and I too wouldn't be surprised in any way if he used PED's, but I will defend him a bit and say that he is without a doubt one of the hardest working guys in the NBA.


To the point of insanity, yes. It's pure talent PLUS he works harder than everybody else.

1. Similar to MJ who also had insane work ethic and would kill any teammates who didn't push the limits in practice. Allen Iverson need not apply.

2. LeBron has credited Kobe for upgrading LeBron's work ethic as well during the summer of 2008 when Team USA was preparing for the Olympics. LeBron said especially his defensive intensity and aggressiveness on boards have improved dramatically since then after observing the way Kobe worked during practices.

3. In spite of all this, Kobe is such an a** most of the time that he found a way to get everyone to dislike him and take Shaq's side on all the squabbles when one of the reasons for the fallout in the first place was that Kobe was pissed off because he would work his butt off every off-season and show up to camp ready to go whereas Shaq would always show up fat and out of shape. Phil also mentioned on multiple occasions over the years that the one and only reason Shaq was such a poor free thrower was a complete lack of work ethic and refusal to devote adequate time to practicing. Kobe's the one working his tail off, Shaq is the one with no work ethic at all but everybody likes Shaq and hates Kobe. That's really hard to pull off but somehow Kobe's done it.

Similar to how A-Rod was the one willing to shift positions to keep the peace in the Bronx despite:

A)being a better hitter than Jeter
B)being at least as good a baserunner as Jeter
C)being an exponentially better defensive shortstop than Jeter

Yet Derek is the cool one everybody loves and everyone hates A-Rod.

I really just don't get it. I guess Alex has some incredible talent for pissing everyone off and seeming phony and wishy-washy. Maybe he should pursue politics?

Only difference now is that Kobe has stopped giving a damn about what people think of him. A-Rod never has.


I often wonder if Rodriguez would have been better off to adopt the Barry Bonds persona and just not care what people think. Like him or hate him it would at least seem more honest.
   44. Booey Posted: January 15, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4639675)
The idea that it's all about protecting Roger Maris or Hank, as is often suggested, seems kind of simplistic.


That's not all it's about, but it certainly plays a significant role. People definitely seem more outraged when stars juice than when scrubs do.
   45. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 15, 2014 at 02:29 PM (#4639690)
That's not all it's about, but it certainly plays a significant role. People definitely seem more outraged when stars juice than when scrubs do.


You're combining two arguments here Booey. They're somewhat related, but they're two different points.

Yes, fans do look at these things differently when stars do it vs. scrubs. That's actually what my argument was in 36 and 41. And because the NBA has not had any of its stars rounded up in any BALCO-like escapades, or fail tests, or write tell-alls, the public and media hasn't really considered it a big issue in the sport (in much the same way they didn't care much about baseball juicing until Caminiti and BALCO). When that happens to the NBA, I'm sure the NBA will be facing greater scrutiny than they have to this point.

The record book angle is a different line of argument, and one I think is given too much weight in these discussions. Yes, we as baseball fans do connect with the sport's history more than other sports, and that's probably played a role in how the whole thing played out. But the idea that it's all about protecting our heroes is way overstated, as far as I can tell (particularly when the timeline of the steroids story is fully considered).

The primary reason the NBA and MLB are treated differently is that the NBA's players, and in particular its stars, have, whether through skill or simple luck, not really given the average person the excuse to wonder what lies beneath.
   46. Manny Coon Posted: January 15, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4639705)
The people on this site don't necessarily care as much the records being broken, but I think the general public does care, particularly grumpy old men who already thought everything was better than they were young. It's definitely not the only reason people care about more what is going on in baseball, but it's certainly part of it and I think it's a big part of why someone like Sammy Sosa gets a lot more scrutiny than someone like Gary Sheffield or David Ortiz.
   47. PepTech Posted: January 15, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4639750)
What loathsome things has Arod actually done. I am one of the most zealous anti-steroids zealots around here, but even I would hardly call it loathsome. So what did he do? Be socially kinda awkward? Make a lot of money?
I don't know as to "loathsome" on the Sandusky Scale, but around Seattle those who have a long memory (15 years) find it fairly easy to compare the departures of Griffey and Rodriguez.

Griffey was at the height of his fame and said "I appreciate Seattle but I want to play closer to home". No one really argued the point, he was traded to Cincinnati, and welcomed back with open arms both as a member of the Reds and eventually as a Mariner.

Rodriguez was approaching free agency and made a number of comments about how competing for a winner was important, it wasn't about the money, etc. and then left the ALCS-participant M's for the last place Rangers and all that money. When he came back to town the first week of the season he was quoted as saying "I wouldn't be surprised if the M's won 105 this year." Turned out he underestimated, but the point was not lost that if he thought they'd win 100+ games, why wouldn't he have wanted to stick around and compete for a winner?

Perhaps he knew Bavasi was on the horizon, but the very strong sense at the time was that he was immature and greedy and the town was better off without him; that he was far more concerned with polishing his, ah, image than being part of a team.
   48. Booey Posted: January 15, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4639818)
The primary reason the NBA and MLB are treated differently is that the NBA's players, and in particular its stars, have, whether through skill or simple luck, not really given the average person the excuse to wonder what lies beneath.

I get that, I just don't see how people can be so up-in-arms about PED use in one sport yet so blissfully ignorant about other sports that require the same type of skills that roids are said to enhance (strength, speed, endurance, etc). It's one thing for the masses to claim they were basically unaware of PED's in general (as many did in the 90's), but once the cat was out of the bag for one sport, doesn't it seem logical that people would start questioning some of the others as well? Seems naive to me that each sport needs it's own personal scandal before the fans and MSM will even bother addressing an issue that's probably rampant.

But I guess there's no point for a league to fix a problem that no one's complaining about. Best to hang on to their false sense of innocence as long as possible (not sarcasm). I think the fans are basically stupid for not thinking the NBA, NFL, and NHL have PED issues, but I actually agree with those leagues decisions to not make a big deal of it until they're required to (though MLB went way overboard, even considering that their hand was forced).
   49. Buck Coats Posted: January 15, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4639819)
I must admit, I had no idea A-Rod once took the most money as a free agent. That totally changes my outlook on his character.
   50. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: January 15, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4639827)
What loathsome things has Arod actually done. I am one of the most zealous anti-steroids zealots around here, but even I would hardly call it loathsome. So what did he do? Be socially kinda awkward? Make a lot of money?


Be a centaur?
   51. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 15, 2014 at 05:35 PM (#4639856)
Rodriguez was approaching free agency and made a number of comments about how competing for a winner was important, it wasn't about the money, etc. and then left the ALCS-participant M's for the last place Rangers and all that money. When he came back to town the first week of the season he was quoted as saying "I wouldn't be surprised if the M's won 105 this year." Turned out he underestimated, but the point was not lost that if he thought they'd win 100+ games, why wouldn't he have wanted to stick around and compete for a winner?

No one -- not even the Mayor of Seattle -- would have turned down the contract Hicks offered A-Rod. Casting baseball players as villains for making sound financial decisions is not worthy of thinking fans.
   52. vivaelpujols Posted: January 15, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4639862)
Kobe is much more loathsome than Rodriguez. Much.


Rapist.
   53. vivaelpujols Posted: January 15, 2014 at 05:41 PM (#4639866)
"What loathsome things has Arod actually done. I am one of the most zealous anti-steroids zealots around here, but even I would hardly call it loathsome. So what did he do? Be socially kinda awkward? Make a lot of money?"

Yeah people are ####### idiots about ARod. I really wanna hear Brett Myers or Milton Bradley call out ARod next.
   54. Swedish Chef Posted: January 15, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4639870)
A-Rod has done nothing compared to posters ####### up the formatting. Those are the worst people.
   55. vivaelpujols Posted: January 15, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4639874)
very strong sense at the time was that he was immature and greedy and the town was better off without him; that he was far more concerned with polishing his, ah, image than being part of a team.


Yeah, right, I'm sure the team was much better without him and his 8 WAR per year. That's what every scorned lover says. Oh and ARod playing for the highest bidder doesn't make him loathsome, unless Cano and Pujols are too. Also I'm sure Jeter's never been offered a higher contract with another team, but he'd probably take it if he was.
   56. Squash Posted: January 15, 2014 at 05:49 PM (#4639884)
But I guess there's no point for a league to fix a problem that no one's complaining about.

The NBA actually did strengthen their testing protocols in the latest NBA/NBPA agreement (2011), almost definitely in response to the issues MLB is going through - players are currently subject to six unannounced tests a year, two of which come during the offseason. The test is considered pretty easy to beat however. I think it would be more accurate to say it takes a major disaster/scandal for a league to really change its behavior, but that's pretty much human nature 101.

I think the fans are basically stupid for not thinking the NBA, NFL, and NHL have PED issues

Re: the NFL, pretty much everyone knows (and has for a long time, significantly longer than in baseball) that the league has a major steroid issue. People don't seem to care though, probably because they aren't breaking any famous records, most of them are gone in a year or two anyway, most fans can't name many players on their team besides the quarterback, running back, and a wide receiver or two so it isn't personal, and the nature of the game is to beat the hell out of each other anyway so who cares. I would be surprised however if the current furor over concussions doesn't trickle down in some way into PED testing however. Re: the NHL, and I say this as a hockey fan, it's a cult, a closed circle of a league. It's still kind of a cult of silence thing like baseball had before for fans of the league, and if you're not a fan of hockey who cares.
   57. toratoratora Posted: January 15, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4639901)
Moe-I heard Coach K in an interview talking about those Olympic teams.He said Kobe watched how intensely Jordan worked* and modeled himself after that.Coach K specifically talked about how LeBron watched Kobe and how much of a difference it made in/for LeBron.

As for the Shaq comment, I don't know about anyone else, but I find a lot of difference between a vague innuendo re steroid use and accusing your teammate of rape to the cops. One is somewhat sleazy,the other is flat out wrong.
Not to mention that in this instance, it wasn't even Arod making the statement,but his lawyer, whereas Kobe most certainly threw Shaq under the bus.
   58. PepTech Posted: January 15, 2014 at 06:20 PM (#4639928)
Yeah, right, I'm sure the team was much better without him and his 8 WAR per year. That's what every scorned lover says. Oh and ARod playing for the highest bidder doesn't make him loathsome, unless Cano and Pujols are too. Also I'm sure Jeter's never been offered a higher contract with another team, but he'd probably take it if he was.
I don't know anyone who didn't want him as a *player* - what I was (apparently too subtly) referring to was a perceived sliminess. No one begrudged the man for cashing in, it was the utter disingenuousness that struck folks as "loathsome".

If he'd said "I'd love to stay, but... $252M! Are you kidding me?" then it would have been fine. But he insisted "it's not the money, it's because I want to play for a contender", and then coming back and saying "I knew the M's were going to be great" that horked people off.
   59. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 15, 2014 at 06:40 PM (#4639941)

I don't think Kobe accused Shaq of rape, I think he was saying Shaq cheats on his wife. Still throwing him under the bus, but not nearly as bad.
   60. dr. scott Posted: January 15, 2014 at 06:55 PM (#4639948)
Who else is "god-like in Boston" and has been accused of using PEDs? Who meets that criteria?

David Ortiz
Manny Ramirez?



Is Gomes god like In Boston? I know Sox fans who think that, and he has been connected to the roids a few times.


   61. Moeball Posted: January 15, 2014 at 08:05 PM (#4639967)
Re: Shaq and Kobe, A-Rod and Jeter - my point was that Kobe and A-Rod were in situations set up to be PR gold - "I'm the one busting my butt for the Lakers while the other guy is lazy; I'm the one willing to put my ego aside and change positions for the good of the Yankees so the prima donna captain won't get his nose bent out of joint" - had they just kept their mouths shut and just not been such complete idiots/a-holes this could have really played out very differently in the court of public opinion. Lessons to be learned, I guess.

   62. Moeball Posted: January 15, 2014 at 08:16 PM (#4639972)
I don't know anyone who didn't want him as a *player* - what I was (apparently too subtly) referring to was a perceived sliminess. No one begrudged the man for cashing in, it was the utter disingenuousness that struck folks as "loathsome".

If he'd said "I'd love to stay, but... $252M! Are you kidding me?" then it would have been fine. But he insisted "it's not the money, it's because I want to play for a contender", and then coming back and saying "I knew the M's were going to be great" that horked people off.


I think it really stems from a pathological need to please everyone. Alex always says what he thinks people want to hear, thinking this will please everyone, but that almost never works out. It almost always backfires on you. Say what you mean and stick to it. Some people will still like you and respect you for it; some won't. That's life.

Saying it's not about the money is stupid. It's always about the money. Apparently Alex got his tips on how to talk about free agency from Kevin Brown.
   63. Moeball Posted: January 15, 2014 at 08:56 PM (#4639998)
Kobe is much more loathsome than Rodriguez. Much.


Rapist.

The one that really made me shake my head was the Ben Roethlisberger case.

1)Woman accuses him of rape. Then charges get dropped. Now, I know that being in the public eye, sometimes people make all kinds of strange accusations against a famous person in an attempt to get a quick settlement from someone wealthy. My sister the lawyer calls it "Litigation Lotto". I'm sure Ray and others here have seen some of this stuff from time to time as well.

2)But if there was truly no merit to the case and that's why the charges were dropped, there would have been absolutely zero reason for the NFL to suspend Roethlisberger. But they did. Why? The only conclusion one can draw from this is that the league knew there was real fire where the smoke was, i.e., he really did something.

3)But if Roethlisberger really did something - like rape a woman - he shouldn't have been suspended, he should have been spending several years in jail and never played another game in the NFL.

This doesn't pass the smell test.
   64. toratoratora Posted: January 15, 2014 at 09:46 PM (#4640027)
But if Roethlisberger really did something - like rape a woman - he shouldn't have been suspended, he should have been spending several years in jail and never played another game in the NFL.

This doesn't pass the smell test.

I can't speak for the earlier accusations but on the last one the reason he got off was because the victim was too intoxicated to testify.IIRC, the judge was disgusted with the fact Ben walked because he thought Big Ben was guilty as sin.
   65. villageidiom Posted: January 15, 2014 at 10:16 PM (#4640040)
Is Gomes god like In Boston?
Hell, no.
   66. Buck Coats Posted: January 15, 2014 at 10:39 PM (#4640052)
Oh and ARod playing for the highest bidder doesn't make him loathsome, unless Cano and Pujols are too.


Yeah, if Seattle hates players who take huge money to go to bad teams, Cano better watch out.
   67. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 16, 2014 at 12:07 AM (#4640081)
I don't know as to "loathsome" on the Sandusky Scale, but around Seattle those who have a long memory (15 years) find it fairly easy to compare the departures of Griffey and Rodriguez.

Griffey was at the height of his fame and said "I appreciate Seattle but I want to play closer to home". No one really argued the point, he was traded to Cincinnati, and welcomed back with open arms both as a member of the Reds and eventually as a Mariner.

Rodriguez was approaching free agency and made a number of comments about how competing for a winner was important, it wasn't about the money, etc. and then left the ALCS-participant M's for the last place Rangers and all that money. When he came back to town the first week of the season he was quoted as saying "I wouldn't be surprised if the M's won 105 this year." Turned out he underestimated, but the point was not lost that if he thought they'd win 100+ games, why wouldn't he have wanted to stick around and compete for a winner?

Perhaps he knew Bavasi was on the horizon, but the very strong sense at the time was that he was immature and greedy and the town was better off without him; that he was far more concerned with polishing his, ah, image than being part of a team.


Well, I'm glad you figured out that "change employers because you're offered more money" is not loathsome on the Sandusky Scale. Seemed like it was a close call there for a minute, though.

People really need to get perspective.
   68. Sunday silence Posted: January 16, 2014 at 12:07 AM (#4640082)
I can't speak for the earlier accusations but on the last one the reason he got off was because the victim was too intoxicated to testify


are you saying she was drunk when she showed up in court, or when the alleged assault occurred? I'd be interested in knowing as that sounds pretty interesting. You wont win any awards for clear writing style, jes saying.
   69. ThickieDon Posted: January 16, 2014 at 12:14 AM (#4640084)
Too intoxicated by Kobe's starpower.
   70. tshipman Posted: January 16, 2014 at 01:17 AM (#4640095)
Isn't the obvious implication Pedroia or possibly Garciaparra?

Tacopina did not say that they were accused with any specific knowledge.
   71. vivaelpujols Posted: January 16, 2014 at 02:01 AM (#4640097)
I don't know anyone who didn't want him as a *player* - what I was (apparently too subtly) referring to was a perceived sliminess. No one begrudged the man for cashing in, it was the utter disingenuousness that struck folks as "loathsome".

If he'd said "I'd love to stay, but... $252M! Are you kidding me?" then it would have been fine. But he insisted "it's not the money, it's because I want to play for a contender", and then coming back and saying "I knew the M's were going to be great" that horked people off.


Pujols did the same thing and he's generally considered a class act. When was the last time (Lance Berkman) you heard a player say "oh no, it's really about the money"? They always have some other reason like winning or respect. I don't see what ARod did is really any different than what Robinson Cano or Pujols did.
   72. valuearbitrageur Posted: January 16, 2014 at 03:27 AM (#4640109)
Rodriguez was approaching free agency and made a number of comments about how competing for a winner was important, it wasn't about the money, etc. and then left the ALCS-participant M's for the last place Rangers and all that money. When he came back to town the first week of the season he was quoted as saying "I wouldn't be surprised if the M's won 105 this year." Turned out he underestimated, but the point was not lost that if he thought they'd win 100+ games, why wouldn't he have wanted to stick around and compete for a winner?


My memory as huge Mariner fan at the time was that when he said those things he didn't think he'd be offered nearly $100M more by a non-contender than his own team.

The one that really made me shake my head was the Ben Roethlisberger case.

1)Woman accuses him of rape. Then charges get dropped. Now, I know that being in the public eye, sometimes people make all kinds of strange accusations against a famous person in an attempt to get a quick settlement from someone wealthy. My sister the lawyer calls it "Litigation Lotto". I'm sure Ray and others here have seen some of this stuff from time to time as well.

2)But if there was truly no merit to the case and that's why the charges were dropped, there would have been absolutely zero reason for the NFL to suspend Roethlisberger. But they did. Why? The only conclusion one can draw from this is that the league knew there was real fire where the smoke was, i.e., he really did something.

3)But if Roethlisberger really did something - like rape a woman - he shouldn't have been suspended, he should have been spending several years in jail and never played another game in the NFL.

This doesn't pass the smell test.


The NFL doesn't suspend players just for criminal behavior, but for behavior unfitting the standards they want their players to keep.

If Roethlisberger had sex with a drunken woman in a bathroom while his security guards kept her friends at bay, consent does not need matter to the NFL, that's grounds for a suspension even if she consents. Setting up a situation that could have enabled the abuse of a helpless girl without interruption, witnesses or possibility of prosecution, is not behavior the NFL wants their star players to publicly behave in.

If it's unclear if he committed rape, but he doesn't cooperate with the local authorities, that's ground for suspension because he's not cooperating with a police criminal probe. He has the right not to self-incriminate, but not the right to work in the NFL afterwards.

If he or his lawyer hire local cops or do anything to poison the case and make it un-prosecutable, such as paying off witnesses or the victim, again grounds for suspension.

Whether the NFL suspension lengths match the crimes is a totally different topic.

The NFL finally figured out how to do this right after a star player ensured that two murderers could not be convicted by stonewalling an investigation, then flip-flopping on his testimony (after participating in the destruction of evidence). If you want to make millions as an NFL player, you also have to agree to represent the league and your team year round, and to curbs on any behavior that would embarrass the NFL. When your league depends on a favorable public image for billions in TV ratings and government subsidies, having players commit criminal acts, or escape punishment for criminal activities by leveraging their fame/fortunes, makes the league look bad and endangers those revenue streams. If you need to get off for rape or murder, fine, go ahead and use your 5th amendment rights and expensive lawyers, but don't expect to waltz right back to get your NFL paycheck afterwards.

And I say this as someone who is disgusted at what the MLB did to railroad A-Rod and make him the whipping boy for a bunch of unproven conspiracy theories. I'm still hoping the MLB investigators will soon be prosecuted, and even flip on Manfred so he can do prison time. A private business can't break the law or it's labor agreements investigating it's employees. But it can use it's best judgement to punish them for damaging public behavior, as long as it's labor agreements don't prohibit those punishments.

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