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1. Fat Al Posted: July 14, 2008 at 11:16 PM (#2856342)Many scouts felt this way when he was coming up, he was know as a 2 pitch pitcher, still is.
I predict 2 IP 4K 0BB 0ER tomorrow. Touching 98.
I want a lot of things. I, for one, want to impregnate Jessica Alba. I'm not going to. I don't expect to. I don't think I deserve it. Neither should Pap. His comment that he "deserves it" rankles me. It stinks of presumption. You're a good closer, Jon, no one doubts that. No need to be an self-centered asshat.
Enjoy your steak knives, Pap.
But if I had to choose, for my team, between a closer who wanted to close the All-Star Game and a closer who didn't want to close the All-Star Game, I'd choose the former.
Well, he hasn't. He's earned the opportunity, but if anyone has the *right* to close this game, it's Rivera, and nobody else.
NEW YORK -- Jonathan Papelbon spent much of the 50-minute long media interview session with the AL All-Stars answering questions about who he thought should close tomorrow night's game.
He said that he'd love to close the game -- he wouldn't be who he is if he didn't feel that way -- but that he understood it would not be an easy call, since the game is in Yankee Stadium and Mariano Rivera is not only a hometown favorite, but maybe the greatest closer in the game. Papelbon said he'd talked it over with manager Terry Francona a couple of days ago, but that Francona had not made a final decision.
But after the interview sessions were over, Papelbon pulled a reporter aside outside of the hotel ballroom in the Grand Hyatt and said that he had something more to say.
Papelbon took the reporter's tape recorder, held it to his mouth like a microphone, and said: "This is Jonathan Papelbon, closer of the Boston Red Sox. Mariano Rivera will be closing the 2008 All-Star Game in Yankee Stadium.
"I'm making a statement right now, saying I don't want it, I want him to have it. I said all that earlier, but that's the way I feel about it.''
He still did the other stuff.
Not to be a self-centered asshat, but I would leave out the second period. God knows I've seen the film often enough. Finally had the sense to buy the DVD after teaching the play for two semesters.
As for being a self-centered asshat ... well, yeah. That has a lot to do with his success as a closer. Every successful athlete I've ever known (NCAA D-1 and D-2) was pretty much certain, whether they'd admit or not, that they were the best player on the team at their position (and a few regardless of position). And these were kids who had virtually no shot at a pro career (John McDonald notwithstanding). Now, Papelbon is far from the most politic of players, but that will compromise his endorsement career more so than his baseball one.
Papelbon's remarks were entirely predictable. I'd much rather have read something from Rivera.
Yeah, what a surprise that a blog site devoted to intense scrutiny of baseball attracts people with intense feelings about baseball.
Who would have expected it?
Ha ha ha
It's an exhibition game and one of the best closers in the game thinks they deserve to close. This is news?
I'd be happier the other way, meaning I would expect every guy there to want the ball, but I would also expect them to acknowledge that Mo has the right before all others to close this game at home at the mid-point of a fine season in a particularly significant game in Yankees' history.
"I want to pitch the 9th in a meaningless 16-3 blowout!"
Papelbon took the reporter's tape recorder, held it to his mouth like a microphone, and said: "This is Jonathan Papelbon, closer of the Boston Red Sox. Mariano Rivera will be closing the 2008 All-Star Game in Yankee Stadium.
"I'm making a statement right now, saying I don't want it, I want him to have it. I said all that earlier, but that's the way I feel about it.''
Why are we so stupid as a nation? Aping for the media. Shut up and go play.
Like the Riverdance stuff. No, wait. That said something else.
Of course, because he says a lot of dumb things I understand why people take potshots at Papelbon, too.
Quitcher #######, Yankee fans. jesus. and you call us whiners.
That argument would allow Borowski to be the "closer" if the Indians were in it. #### this, just let Nathan close.
Or you could argue for counting 08, 07 and the decade+ before that and conclude that Rivera is the best closer and post-season pitcher in history who happens to be in the middle of what may be his best season.
Pretty much every pro athlete in the world is crazy competitive and cocksure, ask any player at the game and they'd want the ball.
The sports media world is so pathetic, stick enough microphones in the faces of people who've made their way via their bodies and not their intellect, and turn any tiny scrap that slips out into a huge story so you can fill column inches and argue about it with other "writers" on TV.
There's about an hour's worth of REAL sports news that happens everyday, when you have a half dozen 24hour channels, and a million column inches to fill you start being dumb.
Even this may be an exaggeration some days. But even if not, they would find a way to make it vapid and uninteresting. CNN et al manage to do it with world news, which is practically infinite in its potential for profitable bloodiness.
Or they'll run an hour long special about something that's important, but vague and dilettante, like "planet in Peril"
*Don't use him for three innings
If he wants to win the game, having the guy who has a 0.37 ERA and .311 OPS against in save situations this season on the mound in the ninth would be a good thing.Or you know, have the best closer in the league on the mound since becoming a closer... and that would you know be Papelbon... who does deserve it... if by deserve you mean be the best at his position over the moderate past.
Since 06
Papelbon: ERA+ 387, WHIP 82
Rivera: ERA+ 281, WHIP 83
Wow--having gotten here post-edit, I'm almost curious.
Is Papelbon assuming the AL's going to lead after 8? Screw him. Perhaps he's trying to keep up with Beckett on my "annoying little $hit Red Sox pitchers I hate" list. (That's not entirely fair to the Red Sox--it used to be a list of one, and it wasn't team-specific; I'd hate Beckett regardless of who he pitched for.)
Then again, I've always thought Schilling was kind of a tool too, so perhaps I had it right the first time...
This just in: Lance Berkman wants to close. Apparently he still doesn't trust Lidge.
The Mussina/Gaston episode immediately crossed my mind when I started reading this thread. I remember well the "CITO SUCKS!" chants that followed Gaston's stunt.
Wow--having gotten here post-edit, I'm almost curious.
I admit it. Me Too. I've read--and written!--some pretty blue stuff here. I'm having trouble imagining what would get a post deleted so quickly.
Rivera is clearly the best closer in history.
Papelbon has clearly been the better closer since he become one full-time.
Because of where the game is, and his career, I'd have Rivera close the game tonight. But a lot of the comments here forget that the second statement above is true as well.
I actually loved this idea. Who knows if there will be a "save opportunity" for Rivera in the 9th? I think it would have been cool to see Rivera come out and throw the first pitch, very fitting.
That said, this is a non-issue. This is the All-Star game; if you're looking at ERA+ since 2006 to decide who should pitch the last inning, you're taking it just a bit too seriously. I know MHS likes to defend his guys, but I really can't imagine Francona going to anyone but Rivera in the 9th. If the game were in fenway and not Yankee Stadium, I'm sure we could all agree papelbon would be the probable choice for the 9th.
Now, Papelbon in the 8th? Absolutely. That's some 1-2 punch.
This is not true. He has had one better year. And he has had some other years which are good, with a much smaller workload.
Actually, he'd also be stabbed on the way to his car in Baltimore, but it would have nothing to do with the game.
This is not true. He has had one better year. And he has had some other years which are good, with a much smaller workload.
Oh, go get a room, you two. They're both better than K-Rod, and that's all that matters.
I thought it was my browser.
I'm not argueing that Papelbon should close. Just that the sentiment in this thread that Papelbon isn't the pitcher Mariano is, is wrong. For exmample:
Clearly stating Mariano is the best.
Clearly stating Mariano is the best
I would say being the best over the "projectionable period" would be "earning the opportunity". While Rivera has certainly had a better career, he hasn't been better in the recent past. Heck Papelbon's average ERA+ is better than River's BEST ERA+ over the 3 years since Papelbon has been a clsoer, which amazingly enough is best period to use for projection (rolling 3 year).
Really, what I'm rallying against is the double standard. How many people get bent out of shape over who makes the all star team, or when players who have earned the nod get snubbed. If is due to nostaligia or politics or misconseptions about player quality, they get bent out of shape. When Rivera closes the allstar game, which I actually have no problem with...actually I'm in favor of, because I think the AllStar game is a place for nostaligia and recongnition of all time greatness (which is why I hate the all winner gets home field) we should call it what it is. Nostaligia, and not merit based.
Blown saves, 2006-2008: Papelbon, 13; Rivera, 7.
Who's the better closer again?
Actually, it is true since the timeframe described is different than what you seem to be thinking of. Though, it does appear that getting the discussion beyond "Mariano is the bezzzt" is not going to happen. Not surprising, I guess.
Papelbon: 73.9
Rivera: 77.3
He hasn't outlasted Nathan yet.
Or Jenks!!!!
Yes, and VORP is a bad statistic for this discussion, as the alternatives are not replacement level. Average would be a better baseline for this discussion due to the nature of the demands on the typical closer.
Sure you should be weighting it by BFP or Innings or whathave you, but the idea is the most recent 3 years of data.
All of Bpro's metric's have them very close, Pap ahead in ARP, Mo ahead in WXRL. I have almost no understanding of what those stats represent, but all of them are close enough to confirm what I suspected, that Mo's IP edge offsets Pap's ERA+ edge, making them roughly equivalent, certainly close enough that I'm not going to be convinced one way or another that one has been better than the other.
Actually, I was thinking you should weight the most recent year more heavily than the most distant year.
If you were talking about Value I would agree with you. Likely a push. We weren't. We were talking about who was better. Paps has been at a higher level.
Need to do both.
OK then. I'm not sure that I see the argument that Papelbon has been better in that case. His best year by far is the most distant and he has significantly fewer IP and BFP.
puh-lease. who stabs these days. i ALWAYS use a handgun in my muggings.
Sorry, the correct question is "Do you think mighty Mouse could beat up Superman?"
What are they fighting about? Which (recent) movie sucked less?
Whatever happened to battlefob? It would be a nice time to have a "Jason Gimabi" rant.
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