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Monday, June 24, 2019

Adam Eaton: Actually, The Financial Struggles Of Minor League Players Are A Good Thing

But it’s not like Eaton is making his argument from either of those perspectives. As is usually the case, he’s projecting his own thoughts and feelings from his time as a minor league players onto everyone else who’s still in that system. He thinks that struggle is good for those players because it was good for him. He thinks that those players should have it rough because he had it rough. With this logic, it’s to assume that he thinks minor leaguers would get complacent with more hospitable conditions because that’s likely what he would have done if he were in that position.

Jim Furtado Posted: June 24, 2019 at 08:06 AM | 57 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: adam eaton, minor league pay

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   1. The_Ex Posted: June 24, 2019 at 09:23 AM (#5855287)
So...major leaguers are by definition complacent? Good to know.
   2. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 24, 2019 at 09:29 AM (#5855288)
A minor leaguer who gets complacent and doesn't work to improve himself will fail to advance up the system and will eventually get released. If anything, complacency inspired by the cushiness of not living off of McDonald's and not sleeping on an air mattress every night could help teams more quickly identify who does and does not have a work ethic adequate to the task. Weed them out in low-A ball rather than AA.
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 24, 2019 at 09:41 AM (#5855290)
the cushiness of not living off of McDonald's and not sleeping on an air mattress every night

The minor league lifestyle sounds like college to me. Living with roommates, sleeping on some god-awful futon or ancient mattress, sharing one 17-inch TV with 5 channels, subsisting on pizza and hamburgers. That's what I remember.

But the only way MLB is going to raise minor league play is if guys start quitting. That's how this stuff works. If a bunch of decent prospects who have college degrees start getting regular jobs and leaving milB, the teams will react.
   4. PreservedFish Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:02 AM (#5855295)
The minor league lifestyle sounds like college to me. Living with roommates, sleeping on some god-awful futon or ancient mattress, sharing one 17-inch TV with 5 channels, subsisting on pizza and hamburgers. That's what I remember.

It's that, plus constant travel, which probably makes it sort of like being in a terrible rock n roll band, which is not known to be the healthiest of lifestyles even if there's no substance abuse.

I too enjoyed my "god-awful futon, pizza & hamburgers" days but I also had the financial security of a family behind me in case anything unexpected happened, or if I ###### up. I could imagine the same circumstances being intensely stressful for the guys that don't have much support, and particularly for the guys that don't know how long their career is going to last.

I doubt that Eaton is right about the balance here - surely some will take shitty conditions as an inducement to improve and get to the majors faster, but I think in general you engender more success by putting people in the right position to succeed than you do by hoping that shitty conditions will incentivize them to improve. Are we supposed to look around the majors and suppose that Matt Carpenter or Ross Stripling or whoever might have never made it to the big leagues had he been earning more money as a 25-year old AAA player, that they would've gotten fat and lazy?
   5. Zonk is Back Where He Came From in a Safe Space Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5855296)
I always hated this argument, or at least, the seemingly general acceptance of it as if were some truism. Everybody is different, I guess, but the only thing financial struggles taught me is that financial struggles suck. Oh sure, I got copious practical application of lessons I already knew - how compounding interest works, hoping is not planning, always read the fine print very carefully, etc... but I don't think it changed a single habit - for better or worse - I had/have, nor did it 'teach' me anything.

Perhaps it's more... unique... in the rarefied air of the professional baseball player, but if I had to bet -- and had access to an alternate reality drive I could spin up on a whim to prove it out one way or another, I highly suspect that the players washed out vs those who went on to big league careers of varying success wouldn't differ to any meaningful degree if they made a comfortable middle class wage or not.

   6. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:08 AM (#5855297)
Only by eating packets of ketchup for dinner will our MiLBers have the drive necessary to make the bigs.
   7. Traderdave Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:11 AM (#5855298)
If I squint hard enough I can see the argument behind the lousy-pay-is-incentive-to-hustle idea, but I don't get the poor food and conditions at all. For all the money invested in draft picks, it seems a no-brainer to make sure those guys eat well, have comfortable beds/bedrooms, and other such basic features of First World living, even if their cash in pocket is near zero.
   8. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:11 AM (#5855299)
Minor league football players - also known as college players - have an opposite situation, with training tables overflowing with food, special dorms that cater to them, state-of-the-art training facilities, constant assistance for their studies, etc. The incentive for the teams is very different, since the colleges actually care about winning games. But the incentives for the players ought to be the same.
   9. PreservedFish Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:14 AM (#5855300)
Suppose you're the 50th best prospect in an organization. You're nothing. How do you improve to make yourself MLB worthy? You don't do it by caring more, or just trying harder. You probably need to put some ####### hard work in - exercise and repetition and high quality practice. Financial security makes it easier to do those things.

Now I'm not saying that it makes financial success for MLB teams to pay more. If you told the Dodgers that by increasing MiLB salaries across the board, they'd get one extra Ross Stripling per decade, they might decide that they're content with underpaying the prospects.

Adam Eaton, by the way, hit .385 in his first tour of the minors. He flew through the minors. He is telling a myth about himself so he gets to congratulate himself for his ambition and hard work.
   10. PreservedFish Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:24 AM (#5855301)
Only by eating packets of ketchup for dinner will our MiLBers have the drive necessary to make the bigs.


This is much better than my many words on the topic.
   11. asinwreck Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:36 AM (#5855305)
This may actually be more idiotic than Eaton's claim last month that he has a mortgage when he doesn't. Really man of the people, that Spanky.
   12. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:39 AM (#5855306)
He thinks that those players should have it rough because he had it rough.
Oh how I hate this type of "thinking." So much.
   13. Zonk is Back Where He Came From in a Safe Space Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:47 AM (#5855310)
Worth noting, too -- Eaton was drafted in 2010. Can't find his bonus - but he was a 19th rounder out of college (Jr), so I presume it wasn't hefty. He was a 2012 September call-up and thereafter, pretty much up for good.

Hey, bully for him - he rapidly became a much better prospect than his draft position - but let's not pretend he spent a decade toiling in the minors to get to the majors. We're talking about ~1.75 seasons in the minors.
   14. Itchy Row Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:50 AM (#5855311)
Eaton's ACL grew complacent right around the time he got his second paycheck in his $4 million first season with Washington.
   15. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:53 AM (#5855313)
Suppose you're the 50th best prospect in an organization. You're nothing. How do you improve to make yourself MLB worthy? You don't do it by caring more, or just trying harder. You probably need to put some ####### hard work in - exercise and repetition and high quality practice. Financial security makes it easier to do those things.


Right, but the teams don't care. The players they care about get six figure bonuses, so have some security. 80% of minor leaguers are just filler for the real prospects to play against. Occasionally one of those guys breaks through.

Now I'm not saying that it makes financial success for MLB teams to pay more. If you told the Dodgers that by increasing MiLB salaries across the board, they'd get one extra Ross Stripling per decade, they might decide that they're content with underpaying the prospects.

And if every team increases salaries, it becomes a wash. Everybody gets one extra mediocre player per decade and no one benefits.

If you want minor leaguers to make more money, you have to figure out some way to make it a competitive advantage for teams to do so. You could start by giving exemptions to the draft/int'l FA spending caps. e.g. let teams sign an unlimited number of prospects to 5 year, $30,000 p.a. guaranteed contracts on top of their bonuses. Now spending more helps you get more talent.
   16. PreservedFish Posted: June 24, 2019 at 10:58 AM (#5855317)
In other professions where it is considered obligatory for beginners to start on slave wages or even unpaid internships - the film industry, haute cuisine, publishing, whatever - it's invariably the people with family money (and connections) that can stick it out and succeed. I wonder how often that's true in baseball too - if there's an awareness that Johnny spends his offseason doing spin rate analysis and taking Pilates retreats, but Tommy is working on his dad's farm, and the two guys are going to be in totally different places come February.
   17. The Duke Posted: June 24, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5855324)
I suspect this is the real reason major leaguers won’t step up to help the minor leaguers. Why should they get what I didn't have
   18. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: June 24, 2019 at 11:29 AM (#5855325)
I imagine the Venezuelan prospects see minor league life as living the dream. Just not having to worry about getting shot for six months a year is pretty good in comparison.
   19. Master of the Horse Posted: June 24, 2019 at 11:29 AM (#5855326)
Hung out with minor league players and FWIW they don't eat a lot of junk food because they know it's terrible. They do play a lot of video games. And there is a lot of awareness about the teams exploiting the players but these guys grind because they all believe being confident in their abilities that in the right sequence of events they can land in the big leagues. And if they can hang long enough the benefits are serious. It's like 45 days to qualify for some amount in the pension.
   20. catomi01 Posted: June 24, 2019 at 11:43 AM (#5855327)
How much would it cost a team to build a dorm-style apartment complex attached to each of their minor league parks, and at least provide breakfast and dinner for their players? Older established players, guys with families, or bonus babies can opt out if they want...but it seems to me to be a relatively small investment relative to the gains...if nothing else, being the 1st team to do this would have to make your organization the most attractive landing spot for minor league free agents. I know Tigertown in Lakeland has a set up like this for their Rookie league team, so I think its common at the lowest levels, but can't see why it wouldn't make sense as you move up the ladder.
   21. PreservedFish Posted: June 24, 2019 at 11:49 AM (#5855329)
if nothing else, being the 1st team to do this would have to make your organization the most attractive landing spot for minor league free agents.


Nah, minor league FAs are veterans. Hot breakfast might be nice, but these guys are going to prioritize which org is more likely to push them to the majors, not which one has a dorm.

And for the MLB teams, there's just no incentive. You'd rather throw some extra cheddar at a few specific guys than spends hundreds of thousands on a perk for dozens of players.

"Hey Rob Wooten, would you rather have a crockpot of oatmeal waiting for you in the morning, or an extra $12,000?"
   22. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: June 24, 2019 at 11:50 AM (#5855330)
Ah, self-mythologizing, the favorite pastime of the successful. (And everybody else, but it's particularly grating coming from successful people.)

Also, I'd have thought that the promise of being paid millions of dollars to do something that's actually fun would be a pretty good motivation for minor leaguers. Heck, if their goal is "not living in squalor" there are lots of better ways to do that than to try to make a living playing baseball.
   23. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: June 24, 2019 at 11:55 AM (#5855332)
How much would it cost a team to build a dorm-style apartment complex attached to each of their minor league parks

Probably not worth it given how many minor league clubs move or change their major league affiliations each winter. On the other hand, I could see it catching on if MiLB team owners start demanding not only a taxpayer-funded mallpark but also taxpayer-funded housing for their players too in order for local politicians to recognize the prestige and economic windfall conferred by the presence of a minor league baseball team. At least, that's what my city keeps telling me.
   24. akrasian Posted: June 24, 2019 at 12:21 PM (#5855336)
The Dodgers don't have dorms (though renting apartment space near the ballparks wouldn't be a bad idea) but they did commit a few years ago to feeding their minor leaguers healthy food. http://baseballstrength.org/los-angeles-dodgers-nutrition-program/

It wouldn't be a far stretch for them to provide bags of very nutritious groceries - with some choices, but all healthy for a developing athlete - for the minor leaguers to eat at home. It would be pretty cheap and likely to help their investments. Even in non-prospects, you want your prospects to be pushed and to have as decent as practical players around them.

The Dodgers keep on getting good prospects and surprise developers, despite drafting late and trading some minor leaguers for major leaguers every season. Obviously not solely because of feeding the kids right, but it can't hurt and likely occasionally helps.
   25. Hank Gillette Posted: June 24, 2019 at 12:33 PM (#5855339)
I suspect this is the real reason major leaguers won’t step up to help the minor leaguers. Why should they get what I didn't have


You can generalize this to many professions and situations. Why should first year not be hazed when I was? Why should medical interns not work 80 hours a week when I did? Why should there be a livable minimum wage when I didn’t have one? Why should young people have guaranteed health care when I didn’t?

This is why we can’t have nice things.
   26. Hank Gillette Posted: June 24, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5855342)
How much would it cost a team to build a dorm-style apartment complex attached to each of their minor league parks


Probably not worth it given how many minor league clubs move or change their major league affiliations each winter.


If this was universal, they could just sell the facility to the new major league affiliate if the affiliation changed.

For the situation where the team leaves completely, build the apartments a little nicer and you could sell it to someone wanting to make an investment in real estate, or sell to the city for low-income housing.
   27. Hank Gillette Posted: June 24, 2019 at 12:42 PM (#5855344)
The Dodgers don't have dorms (though renting apartment space near the ballparks wouldn't be a bad idea) but they did commit a few years ago to feeding their minor leaguers healthy food. http://baseballstrength.org/los-angeles-dodgers-nutrition-program/


Is it a coincidence that the Dodger arguably have the best depth in the majors? If it is a factor, it’s probably not the only one, but still worth considering.
   28. Hank Gillette Posted: June 24, 2019 at 12:51 PM (#5855347)
And if every team increases salaries, it becomes a wash. Everybody gets one extra mediocre player per decade and no one benefits.


When the other teams copied Branch Rickey and developed minor league farm systems, they didn’t then dismantle them because there was no longer a competitive advantage. It just became the new norm (for better or worse).

   29. Hank Gillette Posted: June 24, 2019 at 12:52 PM (#5855349)
Eaton's ACL grew complacent right around the time he got his second paycheck in his $4 million first season with Washington.


Literal LOL.

Also, Adam Eaton is an ass.
   30. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 24, 2019 at 01:05 PM (#5855357)
When the other teams copied Branch Rickey and developed minor league farm systems, they didn’t then dismantle them because there was no longer a competitive advantage. It just became the new norm (for better or worse).


But this is something the teams can control collectively. Why would they want to pay out an extra $50M a year as an industry for no gain? You'd need the extra pay to be a way for them to compete for talent, which is impossible with the current bonus caps.

Like any employer, as long as their are qualified people taking the jobs in sufficient numbers, pay won't go up. The price of anything only goes up when demand exceeds supply at the current price.
   31. Master of the Horse Posted: June 24, 2019 at 01:23 PM (#5855362)
Hasn't the medical field changed how many hours people trying to become doctors can work in response to the common sense that expecting someone who has been awake for 40 hours straight to make a rationale healthcare decision is stupid? That was only in place because doctors who had done it expected the next batches to feel their pain, right?
   32. . Posted: June 24, 2019 at 01:35 PM (#5855369)
And again, this is one of those situations where the root cause isn't being identified. There's no market for the 50th best prospect on a team because the baseball industry is permitted to act as a cartel that designates only certain businesses "major league." This badly distorts the salaries in the industry, raising them artificially for the "major leagues" -- particularly when the businesses are effectively publicly-subsidized -- and reducing them artificially for the "minor leagues." Places like Indianapolis and Columbus aren't really "minor league" markets, yet the people that play baseball for the local nine are paid as if they are. We don't see this kind of thing in free sports markets, like European soccer. Players on the Indy/CBus equivalents there make far more money.
   33. Zonk is Back Where He Came From in a Safe Space Posted: June 24, 2019 at 01:55 PM (#5855381)
But this is something the teams can control collectively. Why would they want to pay out an extra $50M a year as an industry for no gain? You'd need the extra pay to be a way for them to compete for talent, which is impossible with the current bonus caps.


I see how you could even get to 50M a year... Figure 200 players per org.... if you were to just do something like pay every minor leauger $25K a year, that's only 5M.
   34. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 24, 2019 at 02:03 PM (#5855389)
I see how you could even get to 50M a year... Figure 200 players per org.... if you were to just do something like pay every minor leauger $25K a year, that's only 5M.

I said $50M as an industry. Your figure is more like $150M. $5M per team is a lot. If you believe Forbes that's about 1)% of the operating income of an average team.
   35. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 24, 2019 at 02:07 PM (#5855391)
Struggle is good for the developing soul. That's why I starve my child, out of love. I also make her watch me eat, so she'll be motivated to better herself.
   36. akrasian Posted: June 24, 2019 at 02:10 PM (#5855392)
When the other teams copied Branch Rickey and developed minor league farm systems, they didn’t then dismantle them because there was no longer a competitive advantage. It just became the new norm (for better or worse).


And of course, there are huge pluses for each team even if every team has a similar system. You can develop players on their own time table, without them being easily poached. If you need a player for a short while, you can bring him up - and if he's not ready, you can still develop him for a few seasons at least without other teams claiming him or without having to carry an unready player to sit on the bench, hoping that you can develop him with very little actual playing time.

Of course, there are options between very expensive ones and things like the Dodgers do and the current standards. It's in the interest of the fans that players get better developed, including that they eat right in the minors so they are at least a little healthier, less prone to weight gain, etc. Perhaps if they get paid a bit more and are fed healthy meals instead of PB&Js; on white bread on team buses, they will eat right and have more time to work out all winter., maybe even full time workouts and practices all winter, instead of worrying about earning money. Top prospects can do that already, but better competition for them should help their development as well as providing the occasional surprise development in lesser prospects.
   37. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 24, 2019 at 02:19 PM (#5855394)
t's in the interest of the fans that players get better developed, including that they eat right in the minors so they are at least a little healthier, less prone to weight gain, etc.

Why should fans care? Except out of human compassion. But on a enjoyment level, if the players all got 5% better, or worse, we wouldn't notice.
   38. akrasian Posted: June 24, 2019 at 02:49 PM (#5855410)
Why should fans care? Except out of human compassion. But on a enjoyment level, if the players all got 5% better, or worse, we wouldn't notice.

At least some of the improvement - probably the majority - would be in either marginal players or eventually in early and late career performance. I think that would be noticeable.

It's nice as a Dodger fan for so many emergency call-ups performing well. Don't know how much of that is the Dodgers being more progressive than average in the care of their minor leaguers, but I suspect it's a small factor in it.
   39. Traderdave Posted: June 24, 2019 at 02:58 PM (#5855415)
Places like Indianapolis and Columbus aren't really "minor league" markets



Ever been to either?
   40. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 24, 2019 at 03:03 PM (#5855420)
It would absolutely be a competitive advantage for the Dodgers and Cubs to spend another $1M annually treating their players better. They blow more than $1M a year on much worse returns on investment.

The big market teams have the financial muscle to find every advantage they can. This is one of them.

Producing one solid player is worth millions of dollars. The Cubs are paying Daniel Descalso (career WAR: 1.0 in 1000 games) $2.5M this year and $3.5M next year to be turrible.

The Dodgers do have a seemingly endless supply of solid MiLBers. Good for them and hopefully more teams follow their lead in raising their MiLB standards.
   41. Walt Davis Posted: June 24, 2019 at 06:51 PM (#5855502)
Long thread, not enough time ... but they tried this with us when I was in grad school when we complained about low pay**, high fees, lack of health insurance (beyond basic student health services), etc. "You should use that as motivation to finish your degree sooner." The funny part is that this was a sociology department that specialized in the study of social stratification. They couldn't even see the irony when I regularly pointed it out to them (or maybe that was my winning personality).

The other thing they didn't like pointed out to them is that the (mostly male) faculty had been supported by their working wives while they were in grad school while (social mores changing) most of us were unmarried or married to fellow grad/med/law students (and half or more female).

** On a per-hour basis, what we got paid for TAing wasn't bad. But it wasn't nearly enough to live on so we all had second jobs. I had a very good second job but the faculty seemed to not bat an eye when they walked into their local restaurant, bar or ice cream shop and ordered from one of their PhD students.

And of course what we were paid for actually teaching was outrageiously low on a per-hour basis. I got out of that scam once I'd gotten my required one course of teaching out of the way.

A couple of years later, possibly our efforts and organizing paid off as the grad students got a bit of a raise, fee waivers and most importantly health insurance. I tore up my knee in grad school but didn't have the money to get the reconstructive surgery -- things turned out OK anyway but it would have been nice to have the option.
   42. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 24, 2019 at 07:24 PM (#5855508)
Walt, you'll be pleased to note that what I believe is your graduate alma mater now pays its social sciences & humanities adjuncts exactly (per class) what Columbia and Harvard pay theirs. The money goes a lot further in North Carolina than it does in Manhattan and Cambridge. It's all still scandalous, but there are a handful of places that aren't completely horrible about it.
   43. Howie Menckel Posted: June 24, 2019 at 07:34 PM (#5855511)
Hasn't the medical field changed how many hours people trying to become doctors can work in response to the common sense that expecting someone who has been awake for 40 hours straight to make a rationale healthcare decision is stupid? That was only in place because doctors who had done it expected the next batches to feel their pain, right?

I have a nephew who just finished medical school, and he said more and more schools are cutting somewhat into the "marathon" - I forget if his was fewer days, fewer hours, etc.
there is some value in finding out who can crush it in a massive crisis like 9-11 - you wouldn't want to realize 14 hours in that those chosen were not the best at durability in a pinch as well as the other key qualities. but I do think they had gotten to where they took it too far.
   44. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 24, 2019 at 07:50 PM (#5855514)
From having medical students and residents as friends and neighbors, I'm confident that the marathon shifts are only proving who is best able to mix and match uppers, downers, and mood stabilizers in the right proportions. They're all junkies, because the system requires them to be junkies.
   45. Master of the Horse Posted: June 24, 2019 at 09:02 PM (#5855532)
   46. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 24, 2019 at 09:31 PM (#5855540)
Eaton apologizes
Kinda. "I'm sorry if I offended anyone in anyway [sic]."
   47. Howie Menckel Posted: June 24, 2019 at 09:35 PM (#5855542)
They're all junkies, because the system requires them to be junkies.

seems like a sliiiiiiiiiiiiight overbid
   48. The Duke Posted: June 24, 2019 at 09:44 PM (#5855546)
Good for Eaton to at least correct the record. It’s hard to speak without a script and I’m always willing to cut people some slack if they see the error of their ways
   49. Bote Man Posted: June 24, 2019 at 11:26 PM (#5855577)
Plates are wobbling all over the place, Barbie!
   50. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 25, 2019 at 08:23 AM (#5855603)
seems like a sliiiiiiiiiiiiight overbid
"Junkies" was a significant overbid, but I'd be shocked if at a program with marathon shifts the vast majority weren't on some sort of upper most of the time. The ones I knew all were.
   51. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: June 25, 2019 at 09:58 AM (#5855621)
"Junkies" was a significant overbid, but I'd be shocked if at a program with marathon shifts the vast majority weren't on some sort of upper most of the time. The ones I knew all were.


My buddy finished medical school earlier this spring and starts his residency this week. Now, he's someone with ADHD and has been off and on various medicines (including amphetamines) for years. Uppers were absolutely part of his and many of his classmates' medical school experiences. I suspect uppers will continue to be a part of their residency experiences. If managed correctly, I hope they're not too harmful. Although I'm not a medical professional, I do worry about the health effects. After his first year of medical school, he got the summer off and rolled off his prescriptions. In the matter of two months, he gained twenty or thirty pounds. Once school started again in the fall, he got back on his prescriptions and lost the weight as quickly as he had gained it. He went through this cycle every time he was lucky enough to have a week or so off school. He'd dial back his dosage, sleep long hours, put on a few pounds, and then get back on his medicine when the next session started. I realize it's anecdotal evidence, but it still worries me. It worries him, too, because he once made a comment that he was shortening his own life by going through medical school.
   52. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 25, 2019 at 10:10 AM (#5855627)
I've always been surprised at how stupidly the medical system treats young doctors. It is like they don't know anything about the health impact of stress, sleep deprivation, etc.
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2019 at 10:18 AM (#5855628)
I've always been surprised at how stupidly the medical system treats young doctors. It is like they don't know anything about the health impact of stress, sleep deprivation, etc.

They have taken significant steps to curb the over-work in the last 25 years.

The Libby Zion death case, and the crusading by her father, Sydney Zion, had a lot to do with it.
   54. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 25, 2019 at 10:58 AM (#5855638)
Do those 5-Hour Energy things really do anything? When I was in law school, it seemed like all of my classmates who hadn't gotten Adderall prescriptions downed 5-Hour Energy about every, say, 4 hours.
   55. Itchy Row Posted: June 25, 2019 at 11:42 AM (#5855657)
Before I started drinking coffee, I had the graveyard shift at a work-study job in college. Vodka and Coke kept me awake on those nights. Strangely, it didn't help with studying, and it no longer helps me stay awake.
   56. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: June 25, 2019 at 01:09 PM (#5855690)
Vodka and Coke kept me awake on those nights.
This would make slightly more sense with a lowercase "c."
   57. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: June 25, 2019 at 01:33 PM (#5855694)
Do those 5-Hour Energy things really do anything? When I was in law school, it seemed like all of my classmates who hadn't gotten Adderall prescriptions downed 5-Hour Energy about every, say, 4 hours.

Despite the impression you would get from their ad campaigns they contain caffeine. So, sure.

My buddy finished medical school earlier this spring and starts his residency this week. Now, he's someone with ADHD and has been off and on various medicines (including amphetamines) for years. Uppers were absolutely part of his and many of his classmates' medical school experiences. I suspect uppers will continue to be a part of their residency experiences. If managed correctly, I hope they're not too harmful. Although I'm not a medical professional, I do worry about the health effects. After his first year of medical school, he got the summer off and rolled off his prescriptions. In the matter of two months, he gained twenty or thirty pounds. Once school started again in the fall, he got back on his prescriptions and lost the weight as quickly as he had gained it. He went through this cycle every time he was lucky enough to have a week or so off school. He'd dial back his dosage, sleep long hours, put on a few pounds, and then get back on his medicine when the next session started. I realize it's anecdotal evidence, but it still worries me. It worries him, too, because he once made a comment that he was shortening his own life by going through medical school.


Based on my personal experience in law and my best friend's experience in as a med student and young doctor, there are much higher rates of amphetamine use than the general population. It always amused me to read this part of the PED discussion when I knew the other law associate was using WADA banned substances to bill his 1900 hours.

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