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Tuesday, July 31, 2018

Adam Jones has earned the right to say ‘no’ to trade - BaltimoreBaseball.com

I’m a big fan of Adam Jones. He certainly has earned the right to stay in Baltimore. As a pending free agent, though, I wonder whether this will hurt him next year. Had he accepted the deal and made an impact with a team like the Phillies, he would be more marketable. Instead he’ll finish out the season out of the national eye. With aging veterans getting squeezed in free agency, getting an opportunity to showcase skills in a pennant race and post season can help put extra dollars into a player’s pocket.

Jim Furtado Posted: July 31, 2018 at 09:08 AM | 79 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: adam jones, orioles

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   1. BDC Posted: July 31, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5718373)
Who's the most similar player to Adam Jones? Long-career Gold-Glove center fielder, hits .285 monotonously, with power, but rarely walks.

I suppose it's Torii Hunter. Other rough comparables include Devon White, adjusting for era, though Jones is still the better hitter. Tony Armas Sr. had a couple of years that would fit into Jones' career, but was overall a lower-average hitter and thus not as valuable.

   2. CheersUnusualPlays Posted: July 31, 2018 at 09:46 AM (#5718377)
Devo was an astronomically better fielder though
   3. Rally Posted: July 31, 2018 at 09:55 AM (#5718381)
Through age 32 Hunter was a little over 30 WAR like Jones is now, with 1380 games, a 272/326/468 slash line, 213 homers and 145 steals. Jones has played more, getting into the lineup at an earlier age. In 1641 games he has a 278/318/458 slash, 262 homers and 90 steals. Both ran well but not blazers like Devon White was. Torii kept his speed longer, stole 18 bases in 22 attempts when he was 33. Never reached double digits after that. Jones stopped stealing bases 4 years ago, the last year he had more than 3 was 2014.

Hunter aged extremely well. To continue being compared to Hunter for the next 5 years would be about the best case scenario for Jones. Vada Pinson and Vernon Wells are decent comps as well. They represent the downside of the aging curve.
   4. Ziggy's screen name Posted: July 31, 2018 at 10:05 AM (#5718385)
Do the people making decisions really pay attention to who is in the "national eye"? Given that whether his performance is on the Phillies or the O's won't change his projection for the future, I'd certainly hope that whoever is making decisions isn't making them on the basis of what they're seeing on the game of the week.
   5. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 31, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5718386)
I haven’t seen any kind of study - I’m not sure there’d be enough data if one did - but I’d be surprised if players starring in the postseason didn’t see a bump in value over comparable players playing out the string on a 50-win team.
   6. flournoy Posted: July 31, 2018 at 11:03 AM (#5718415)
Who's the most similar player to Adam Jones? Long-career Gold-Glove center fielder, hits .285 monotonously, with power, but rarely walks.


Double the walk rate, drop the batting average a bit, and get another A. Jones?
   7. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: July 31, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5718421)
Johnny Damon is similar. More speed, more walks, but less HR. He'd be another best-case scenario.
   8. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: July 31, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5718425)
It's interesting to me that Jones wouldn't want to be traded...

Is he really that attached to Baltimore?

Unless he plans to do a blank check stunt and try to resign at a steep discount, his Orioles days are probably over in a few months anyway.

If that's really his thinking - then good on him... he's made nearly 100 million in his career - so if he's just reached the point where he loves the team and the city, bully.

If not, though - I just struggle to see why he'd want to stick around. It's not going to be pleasant final two months there. Even the family disruption doesn't really make sense to me (unless he's got some family issues like a sick kid or something?) - it's just 2-3 months on the road.
   9. Rally Posted: July 31, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5718428)
Damon hit lefty and had one of the worst throwing arms in recent memory. Jones has one of the best. It's hard for me to see Damon and Jones as similar other than they are both baseball players at the same position and produce similar value.
   10. Rally Posted: July 31, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5718429)
Is he really that attached to Baltimore?


He just bought Cal Ripken's house. Though somebody here posted that Jones bought it as an investment property.
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 31, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5718430)
I bought Cal Ripken's rookie card as an investment property. I hope it works out better for Jones.
   12. Nasty Nate Posted: July 31, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5718431)
If that's really his thinking - then good on him... he's made nearly 100 million in his career - so if he's just reached the point where he loves the team and the city, bully.

If not, though - I just struggle to see why he'd want to stick around. It's not going to be pleasant final two months there. Even the family disruption doesn't really make sense to me (unless he's got some family issues like a sick kid or something?) - it's just 2-3 months on the road.
Maybe part of the appeal of staying is that he gets to play CF every day and hit in the middle of the lineup. A contender might use him differently.
   13. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 31, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5718481)
Who's the most similar player to Adam Jones? Long-career Gold-Glove center fielder, hits .285 monotonously, with power, but rarely walks.

Double the walk rate, drop the batting average a bit, and get another A. Jones?


Except that Andrew Jones had 24.5 dWAR to Adam's 0.8.
   14. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 31, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5718490)
   15. Ziggy's screen name Posted: July 31, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5718512)
I can see not wanting to be traded. Being traded has got to be a hassle. You might not know your teammates, there's new training staff to get used to. Maybe they make you watch the "Welcome to the Houston Astros Family" video, and you've got to pick up paper paychecks for two pay periods before the direct deposit forms go through. Sure, he's going to have to do all that next spring, but why do it twice?

The answer might be "you get to play on a winning team", but I could also see not caring about that. Even if winning is the organization's goal, it doesn't have to be the players'.
   16. Rally Posted: July 31, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5718584)
I think fans in general are a lot more casual about trades than the people directly impacted. What's the big deal, you just put on a new uniform and show up on a different MLBTV channel?

I imagine I would be pissed off if I came in to work tomorrow and was told that I was traded to an office in Chicago or Milwaukee or someplace hundreds or thousands of miles away. Now I've got to tell my family they'll have to make new friends, find a new place to live, etc. Now certainly it's a lot easier to deal with that when you have multiple millions in resources. But it's not something that you want to have to deal with 95% of the time, excluding situations where a player asks to be traded (and has some leverage, like Griffey in Cincy, to end up where he wants to go).

Curt Flood didn't start the legal path to free agency because he was paid less than a free market would have given him. He was perfectly happy making a ton of money but leaving a good chunk on the table for the owners to keep. He started fighting when they traded him from a city he was very comfortable in to a new one where he would have had to start over.
   17. donlock Posted: July 31, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5718707)
Hard for me not to think that AJ has annoyed the front office by refusing a trade. They probably hoped to get his salary off the books as well. They might have had other trades or minor league outfielders to plug inot lineup in August.

Were the Birds to re-sign him for 2019, they would have two right fielders each making about 15 million. Trumbo would lose most of his rf starts and move to DH full time where he doesn't hit as well. Jones would take most of the starts away from any of the young minor league players (Hayes, Stewart, new guy from LA). How does that help the team? Was veteran leadership (O'Day, Britton, JOnes) useful for an historically bad team?
   18. Walt Davis Posted: July 31, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5718713)
#4-5: I certainly don't know and agree we probably don't have enough data to find out ... my guess is that the primary outcome is, if you play well and your new team "succeeds" (however they define that), then they're under pressure from their own fans/media to bring you back. It probably doesn't have much effect on other teams unless maybe the player further goes on to be a playoff hero too (though that increases the pressure on his new team even more). Anyway, the media loves "since player X arrived, the team is 36-24 and won the division. Teammates said X solidified the clubhouse and kept them focused on their goal..."

It was an extreme case but Cespedes with the Mets. Manny with the Dodgers is another extreme case. Obviously that pressure is limited in most cases -- Milw wasn't going to re-sign CC at that price. The Cubs weren't pressured into signing Chapman but I bet if David Ross had decided to give it one more shot, they'd have re-signed him. I was a little surprised Cleveland didn't re-sign Rajai Davis. Of course that sort of thing never seemed to help Kenny Lofton. :-)
   19. cardsfanboy Posted: July 31, 2018 at 09:19 PM (#5718800)
He could be forcing them to offer him a qualifying offer, or at least make them think about that option? (unless he's not eligible for some reason)
   20. SoSH U at work Posted: July 31, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5718812)

He could be forcing them to offer him a qualifying offer, or at least make them think about that option? (unless he's not eligible for some reason)


How could he do that?
   21. cardsfanboy Posted: July 31, 2018 at 10:38 PM (#5718849)

How could he do that?


Not exactly forcing them, but if he's a free agent this off season, they have to make the decision if they want to. And if he likes playing there, he's forcing them to make a decision, he might be happy with the qualifying offer.

Of course I don't know his status, I'm just thinking of possibilities from his viewpoint.
   22. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: August 01, 2018 at 12:08 AM (#5718874)
@masnRoch
Adam Jones on why he didn't approve trade: “When players walked out years ago and walked the picket lines and did all that stuff, they did all that for reasons like right now. I earned this and it’s my decision. I don’t have to explain it to nobody. It’s my decision. Thank you.”
   23. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 01, 2018 at 12:20 AM (#5718876)
“When players walked out years ago and walked the picket lines and did all that stuff, they did all that for reasons like right now. I earned this and it’s my decision. I don’t have to explain it to nobody. It’s my decision. Thank you.”


Good for him.
   24. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 01, 2018 at 05:05 AM (#5718903)
Exactly. It doesn't matter whether it's because he knows where all the best coke dealers in Baltimore are and doesn't want to have to find them in a new city. It's his legal right, and he's not under any obligation to justify it.


(To be clear, this was purely an extreme hypothetical. I am not accusing him of being a drug user. I don't mean to cast aspersions on him. Well, except for his religious belief that baseball rules require one to swing at the first pitch. (And the second, and the third. He has 14 walks all year.) And the fact that he can't play CF anymore, and yet still plays shallow under the mistaken belief that he has the speed and range to catch balls hit over his head.)
   25. BDC Posted: August 01, 2018 at 08:57 AM (#5718927)
Not really about Jones specifically, but I was thinking that once a player waives 5-and-10 rights, he isn't likely ever to regain them. It's a card you effectively lose once you play it. So you want to be choosy about your acquiescence.

Which got me to thinking: how many players have ever reached 5-and-10 status twice (or more) in their careers? Ken Griffey Jr. would be one (Seattle & Cincinnati). Albert Pujols (STL and LAA). Rod Carew (MIN, CAL). Nolan Ryan with the Angels and Astros, but he's the only pitcher I can think of offhand. There are perhaps others, but pitchers don't tend to put together long stretches with two different clubs. Tom Seaver probably did (10½ years with the Mets, 5½ with Cincinnati) but I am not sure how that stretch with Cincinnati would have been figured, how the half-season would have counted.

The right has existed since 1973, so it's only 45 years worth of players who've been eligible for it. It went into place at once, though: Ron Santo invoked it in '73 to block a trade to the Angels.
   26. Rally Posted: August 01, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5718931)
Adrian Beltre came close. He earned 5-10 rights with the Mariners exactly at the point where his contract expired. He has since earned them for the Rangers and has had such rights for the last 3 years. That's the rare part, earning 5-10 with a new team that you join in your 30s.

Looks like Andre Dawson might have barely qualified. 10 full years with the Expos plus a cup of coffee in 1976. So he would have been there at the end of the 1986 season, though kind of irrelevant as his contract was expiring and he probably gained 5-10 rights after the trade deadline. Then he played 6 years with the Cubs.
   27. Russ Posted: August 01, 2018 at 09:39 AM (#5718935)
Jones has a wife and 4 year old son. Moving them twice in 6 months seems excessive, so does moving to a new city and basically being away from them for 2, possibly 3 months and then moving.

Good for him for making the unpopular decision that is still the best for him (and I assume, his family). I can’t believe fans are selfish and stupid enough to take the team’s side on this. Wait... maybe I couldn’t believe it when I left the States 16 years ago, seems totally in line with what the country has become now.
   28. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 01, 2018 at 09:40 AM (#5718936)
Carlton Fisk got there: 11 years with the Red Sox, followed by 13 years with the White Sox.
   29. SoSH U at work Posted: August 01, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5718938)
As someone who believes strongly in Arom's 16, Adam Jones has vaulted up my favorite player list.
   30. BDC Posted: August 01, 2018 at 09:53 AM (#5718941)
Jones has a wife and 4 year old son. Moving them twice in 6 months seems excessive, so does moving to a new city and basically being away from them for 2, possibly 3 months and then moving


I believe that Jones and his family live permanently in San Diego. We often think of these ballplayers moving to live near their workplace like the rest of us have to, but a lot of them use their wealth to establish a permanent home anywhere they want. It's quite possible they also own or rent a summer home of some kind near Baltimore, of course, and that would cause some disruption to deal with.
   31. BDC Posted: August 01, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5718944)
kind of irrelevant as his contract was expiring and he probably gained 5-10 rights after the trade deadline


Yes, that was the case with some of the players I thought of. Roger Clemens would have gained 5-and-10 rights a second time with the Yankees, but was immediately gone as a free agent. If your contract is up, the 5-and-10 rights become less relevant (so again, Jones has only this short window to invoke them).

Ryan would have gotten them a third time with the Rangers, but I think he'd already retired midseason in his fifth year there.
   32. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: August 01, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5719100)
[29] Totally agree. That statement in [22] is awesome. I never cared much about Jones one way or the other before now, he's always struck me as pretty milquetoast, but I love him now.
   33. DanG Posted: August 01, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5719168)
CF and RF with similar WAR, OPS+ and PA as Adam Jones thru their age-32 season:

Player        WAROPSRfield   PA From   To
Johnny Damon  39.6  103    0.3 7579 1995 2006
Harry Hooper  38.7  114   62.0 7333 1909 1920
Clyde Milan   37.0  111    4.0 7220 1907 1919
Garry Maddox  36.4  102  108.3 5929 1972 1982
Adam Jones    32.9  108  
-37.0 6808 2006 2018
Raul Mondesi  30.1  115   15.9 6067 1993 2003
Nick Markakis 29.1  111   12.0 7336 2006 2016
Alex Rios     28.3  102   73.0 5997 2004 2013
Vernon Wells  28.2  106  
-27.2 6492 1999 2011
Lloyd Moseby  27.5  102    8.3 6574 1980 1991 
   34. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: August 01, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5719183)
I can’t believe fans are selfish and stupid enough to take the team’s side on this. Wait... maybe I couldn’t believe it when I left the States 16 years ago, seems totally in line with what the country has become now.

No need to go all OTP on us or anything. Basically every labor/management dispute in MLB history -- certainly every labor/management dispute in my lifetime of 50 years -- has boiled down to "greedy ballplayers" vs "helpless owners" in the public's eye. "What the country has (purportedly) become now" has approximately zero to do with anything.
   35. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 01, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5719252)
Nolan Ryan with the Angels and Astros, but he's the only pitcher I can think of offhand.


Looks like Clemens did, though after his 5th season with the Yankees he was a FA and couldn't be traded anyway.
   36. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 01, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5719255)
He started fighting when they traded him from a city he was very comfortable in to a new one where he would have had to start over.


And one that was notoriously racist towards black ballplayers at the time.
   37. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: August 01, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5719256)
Hey - fair enough to Jones.

FTR - #8 wasn't meant to be accusatory.... I'm just genuinely curious.
   38. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: August 01, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5719261)
Adam Jones (aged 22-32 years (his career in Baltimore)): .279/.319/.461 (780 OPS, 109 OPS+)

Mike Cameron (aged 22-32 years): .249/.340/.442 (783 OPS, 105 OPS+)
   39. Rally Posted: August 01, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5719263)
Tom #28,

Does not look like Fisk got to ten service years with the Red Sox. His 11 seasons there include one with 2 games and one with 14. I doubt there was a case of him earning service time on the DL because he has substantial minor league time in those years.
   40. donlock Posted: August 01, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5719270)
Adam Jones is fine to choose to stay in Baltimore for the rest of the season. I doubt, though , that any of the players who just changed teams at the deadline and who were in the final year of their contracts, would move their families to the new city for August and September.

Manny Machado is living in LA, Zach Britton in NY and Brad Brach in Atlanta. Players traded during the season usually stay with a new teammate or pick up a lease from a player who has left town. The club also has access to short term housing for traded players. The teams will be on the road half of the remaining games, anyway.

Maybe AJ feels he can finish strong in Baltimore and get a free agent offer to play in San Diego or on the West Coast. Hey, it could happen...

   41. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 01, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5719273)
Maybe AJ feels he can finish strong in Baltimore and get a free agent offer to play in San Diego or on the West Coast. Hey, it could happen...


Has he been a good enough player in his career to be eligible to cycle through Oakland?
   42. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: August 01, 2018 at 06:05 PM (#5719287)

No need to go all OTP on us or anything. Basically every labor/management dispute in MLB history -- certainly every labor/management dispute in my lifetime of 50 years -- has boiled down to "greedy ballplayers" vs "helpless owners" in the public's eye.

Beyond that, fans are much more concerned about the quality of their team than they are about the happiness of the players. Good for Jones for doing what he wants and is within his rights to do, but I wouldn't fault an Orioles fan for objecting.

That said, was anyone actually offering something of value for 2 months of this version of Adam Jones? That would be crazy. Presumably, it'd just be a contract dump?
   43. Walt Davis Posted: August 01, 2018 at 09:41 PM (#5719389)
Has he been a good enough player in his career to be eligible to cycle through Oakland?

They're public bike paths, everyone is welcome.

10/5 didn't exist yet but Frank Robinson would have qualified at the end of 1965 which is when the Reds had the brilliant idea of trading him. (OK, they probably had the idea earlier.) He then would have had them in Baltimore. An intriguing "what if" on whether he'd have approved Cin-Balt or Balt-LAD trades. (Wow, the latter was the 71-72 offseason -- my brain thinks of that trade happening much later. So another "what if" ... if the AL introduces the DH in 72 instead of 73, do the O's hang onto Robinson?

Looks like the Cubs traded Reuschel just before he had 10/5 rights.

If he hadn't gotten hurt (as I recall), Jamie Moyer might have qualified for the 2nd time at age 48. Doesn't look like Colon ever qualified. Looks like Seattle traded Randy Johnson just before he had 10/5 (also about to become FA) but he did have them in AZ. Julio Franco would have had them after his age 34 season but his contract was up anyway. He nearly had them after his age 46 season but was an FA anyway.

It is hard to think of candidates. You pretty much need to have debuted very young, signed an extension or FA contract into your early 30s then gotten another 6+ year FA contract with a new team at that age (or two 3-year contracts or whatever). If the Yanks had let ARod go, he might have technically qualified but looks like that was his 10/5 year. If the Marlins had held onto Stanton for another few years, then traded him, he could have done it.
   44. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 01, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5719396)
Palmeiro earned 10/5 rights in both Texas and Baltimore.
   45. SoSH U at work Posted: August 01, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5719457)

Palmeiro earned 10/5 rights in both Texas and Baltimore.


But he became a free agent upon earning them in each stop.
   46. Jay Z Posted: August 02, 2018 at 12:53 AM (#5719469)
If a player has an opportunity to go to a better team, and chooses to stay on a bad team where the games don't matter. Who cares about WAR for a team that's out of it. I know, "he can't help who his teammates are." Wait, he can control that. By agreeing to be traded to a better team.

Jones is cashing his paychecks, but yeah, I think it matters when a player has a chance to compete, play in more important games, and turns it down.
   47. John Reynard Posted: August 02, 2018 at 04:13 AM (#5719474)
That said, was anyone actually offering something of value for 2 months of this version of Adam Jones? That would be crazy. Presumably, it'd just be a contract dump?


I read the Phillies offered a vaguely interesting arm and were intending to use Jones like they did Altherr before he was injured. That seems a lot of money to pay for a 4th OF to me. But, the Phillies definitely have the room under any reasonable budget or the luxury tax and he would probably make the team better since Altherr is hurt. If the Phillies told him he was going to be the 4th OF and have Roman Quinn around taking PA as a 5th OF to boot, maybe he didn't want to move to Philly to ride pine 3-5 days a week, even on a playoff team. That would be a totally valid reason.
   48. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 02, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5719562)
If a player has an opportunity to go to a better team, and chooses to stay on a bad team where the games don't matter.
That’s not a complete .
Who cares about WAR for a team that's out of it.
Uh, fans of the team?
   49. Rally Posted: August 02, 2018 at 10:45 AM (#5719574)
Beyond that, fans are much more concerned about the quality of their team than they are about the happiness of the players.


The extreme where a player is on a contract that is good for the owners (beyond first 6 seasons) is something like Jose Ramirez. Looks like he's under contract (with team options) for about 44 million over the next 5 seasons. Had he gone year to year he'd be a free agent after 2020.

The extreme going the other way is Chris Davis, or what the Phillies had with Ryan Howard.

I don't think the fans consciously want to side with the billionaire owners over the millionaire players, but when the owners get the better side of contracts the team is a lot more likely to win. Teams like Oakland can only win if they have productive players earning far less than they are worth. The only time you can have both players winning the contract game and the team winning on the field is if your payroll is ginormous like the pre-Judge Yankees, the recent Dodger teams, or this year's Red Sox*.

*Even a team like this is getting plenty of cheap production from good contracts or pre free agency young players. But they are paying 11.77 million for a AAA outfielder, 16 million for 3 games of a 2B, 30 million for their #3 starter, 18 million for a utilityman on the Giants, and 22.75 million for an unemployed DH. That's near 100 million for which the only productive return is Price's 122 innings of a 111 ERA+.
   50. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 02, 2018 at 10:52 AM (#5719578)
I don't think the fans consciously want to side with the billionaire owners over the millionaire players, but when the owners get the better side of contracts the team is a lot more likely to win.
Very much this.

Also, a player's salary is a concrete, well-known figure. The thought process for "They're paying Chris F. Davis $17 million to suck this year" is a lot more straightforward and discrete than "Jose Ramirez is making 'only' $9 million this year, which on a $/WAR basis is far less than his market value, which puts more money in the pockets of the Indians' owners. We have no idea who those people are - we can assume they're very rich, but we don't know exactly how rich, and the amount of money they gain from it is purely hypothetical."
   51. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: August 02, 2018 at 11:01 AM (#5719585)
And one that was notoriously racist towards black ballplayers at the time.


Dick Allen was a special case no matter how you look at it. There was a lot of racism in the area, no denying that.

I'm trying to think of any other black ballplayers getting treated badly. Wes Covington was rather liked, Johnny Briggs and Grant Jackson really didn't matter enough to be liked or disliked. I'm hard pressed to think of any other A-A players who played with Allen. Fergie Jenkins for a brief amount of time, nothing bad there.

Eagles running back Tim Brown was liked, I can't think of any Eagle A-A who got bad treatment.

The all-A-A 76ers of Chamberlain, Luke Jackson, Chet "the Jet" Walker, Wali Jones and Hal Greer were very much loved.

Maybe I am missing somebody, but I can't think of any one else who was mistreated.
   52. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 02, 2018 at 11:07 AM (#5719590)
Jones is cashing his paychecks, but yeah, I think it matters when a player has a chance to compete, play in more important games, and turns it down.


Why? Maybe Jones thinks the "more important games" are the ones for the Oriole fans who have supported him for his entire career.

It's generally considered a good thing that players now have much more leeway to play where they want. It would make me uncomfortable to go back and tell them where they "ought" to play.
   53. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: August 02, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5719591)
Was Flood's position always based on the principle of not controlling his own destiny? Did he ever say he had a problem with Philadelphia in particular, or that he really wanted to stay in St. Louis?
   54. Rally Posted: August 02, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5719725)
Was Flood's position always based on the principle of not controlling his own destiny? Did he ever say he had a problem with Philadelphia in particular, or that he really wanted to stay in St. Louis?


It's been years since I read his book, but my recollection is at least 90% not wanting to leave St Louis. Can't remember if there was a particular dislike for Philadelphia.
   55. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 02, 2018 at 02:18 PM (#5719741)
I thought Flood's post-career business plans in STL were a part of it.

FWIW, from his wikipedia entry:

Flood refused to report to the moribund Phillies, citing the team's poor record and dilapidated Connie Mack Stadium, and for (what he thought were) belligerent—and racist—fans. Flood said, "That I didn't think that I was going to report to Philadelphia, mainly because I didn't want to pick up twelve years of my life and move to another city."[10] Some reports say he was also irritated that he had learned of the trade from a reporter;[11] but Flood wrote in his autobiography that he was told by midlevel Cardinals management and was angry that the call did not come from the general manager,[12] further alienating him from Busch.[9] He met with Phillies' general manager John Quinn, who left the meeting believing that he had persuaded Flood to report to the team.[12] Flood stood to forfeit a lucrative $100,000 (equivalent to $630,163 in 2017)[13] contract if he did not report; but after a meeting with players' union head Marvin Miller,[14] who informed him that the union was prepared to fund a lawsuit, he decided to pursue his legal options.[4]
   56. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 02, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5719747)
Can't remember if there was a particular dislike for Philadelphia.


Given how poorly the black player he was being traded for was treated, it had to enter his mind.
   57. Jay Z Posted: August 02, 2018 at 07:02 PM (#5719955)
Why? Maybe Jones thinks the "more important games" are the ones for the Oriole fans who have supported him for his entire career.

It's generally considered a good thing that players now have much more leeway to play where they want. It would make me uncomfortable to go back and tell them where they "ought" to play.


Players still have very little leeway to "play where they want." Just like most other employees, even C-level folk.

They have no choice until they are FA. Then they have a choice of a very small number of teams who will bid for their services. Yes, they can sign with "anybody" if they are willing to take pennies on the dollar. Most teams have dollars allocated to other players, they can't afford to double dip if the skill set is covered already. Except for pennies on the dollar. So the FA has a real choice of a small number of teams at best. Maybe only one, if he wants the best contract.

They have a choice to sign that one day contract when they retire. Not that much else, if they want the bucks. Which almost all of them do. Almost all of them want to cash in. I don't blame them for that at all. I would do the same. But it doesn't come out of some great love for the Anaheim, Atlanta, or Toronto metro areas.

I do believe someone got busted on this. It might have been Billy Wagner. Refused a trade to a contender, then relented when faced with pressure.

They are paid millions to compete. I don't admire at all intentionally choosing to rack up WAR in a mostly empty ballpark playing with AAA teammates.
   58. PreservedFish Posted: August 02, 2018 at 07:13 PM (#5719958)
They are paid millions to compete. I don't admire at all intentionally choosing to rack up WAR in a mostly empty ballpark playing with AAA teammates.


I don't see how one's teammates make a huge difference in the quality or value of one's own efforts.
   59. cardsfanboy Posted: August 02, 2018 at 07:24 PM (#5719964)
I don't admire at all intentionally choosing to rack up WAR in a mostly empty ballpark playing with AAA teammates.


I don't get this argument in the slightest (on an intellectual level I get it, but on a human being level, it just seems silly).... basically your argument boils down to, the players have negotiated for a right (10/5) that if they ever use, is a sign that they are doing something to not admire. This makes zero sense. Ultimately it boils down to as a veteran player, who has spent a fairly long time in one place, to decide if you want to upheave your life and do what the owners want you to do, or do what is in your best interest,(after being told by the owners that they no longer value you) and from your viewpoint, a guy thinking about his best interests is the bad guy... .that is just incredibly hard to grasp. How can any non-sociopath relate to that viewpoint?
   60. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 02, 2018 at 07:28 PM (#5719966)
They have a choice to sign that one day contract when they retire. Not that much else, if they want the bucks. Which almost all of them do. Almost all of them want to cash in. I don't blame them for that at all. I would do the same. But it doesn't come out of some great love for the Anaheim, Atlanta, or Toronto metro areas.


So you're arguing that Adam Jones is staying in Baltimore to "cash in"?

I do believe someone got busted on this. It might have been Billy Wagner. Refused a trade to a contender, then relented when faced with pressure.


I have no idea what this means. I don't know why you'd get "busted" on not wanting to be traded. I don't know why it's selfish or unseemly to want to play for the team you signed with rather than get traded elsewhere. It looks like Wagner agreed to the trade when the Red Sox agreed not to pick up the team option on him after the season - I don't know what's dishonorable about that.

They are paid millions to compete. I don't admire at all intentionally choosing to rack up WAR in a mostly empty ballpark playing with AAA teammates.


There isn't a single player in the major leagues who is playing to "rack up WAR."
   61. SoSH U at work Posted: August 02, 2018 at 07:48 PM (#5719979)
I do believe someone got busted on this. It might have been Billy Wagner. Refused a trade to a contender, then relented when faced with pressure.


Fred McGriff didn't want to leave the hometown Devil Rays to play for a borderline contender in Chicago. Eventually, facing considerable pressure from fans and the media, he relented. I'm glad Adam Jones said no, and hope others follow suit rather than give in (if they'd prefer to stay, that is).

   62. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 02, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5720043)

So you're arguing that Adam Jones is staying in Baltimore to "cash in"?
The entire post reads like it was written by a random Roger Maynard generator. It makes zero sense. We're expressly talking about a situation in which a player does have a choice where to play, and he argues that players often don't have a choice where to play. We're talking about a situation in which a player chooses not to "cash in," and he rants about players choosing to cash in.

And then he argues that half the players in the league are just wasting their time because they aren't on contenders.
   63. Jay Z Posted: August 03, 2018 at 01:18 AM (#5720130)
61: Jones and all players are mercenary. They will go where the money is. I have said I would do the same.

You can't have it both ways. If it's great that players are mercenary, there's nothing to admire in a player staying put. We know it means nothing. No sentimentalism, no loyalty. Nothing to admire in Jones.

My other point is about context. A lot of people hate context. One of the arguments made is that context isn't a players fault, he can't control the situation, can't control his teammates. Except in this case he can. Yet it still isn't supposed to matter.

What McGriff tried to pull was unprofessional then and now.


   64. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 03, 2018 at 02:46 AM (#5720134)
Jones and all players are mercenary. They will go where the money is.
Simply repeating your nonsense doesn't make it less nonsensical. We're expressly discussing a situation when exactly the opposite is true.
You can't have it both ways. If it's great that players are mercenary, there's nothing to admire in a player staying put. We know it means nothing. No sentimentalism, no loyalty. Nothing to admire in Jones.
Not clear what the "both ways" are supposed to be, your "if" is something only you've said, and the then doesn't follow from your if anyway. Saying that players should not be criticized for the choices they make about where to play is entirely consistent with saying that Jones should not be criticized for the choices he makes about where to play.
My other point is about context. A lot of people hate context. One of the arguments made is that context isn't a players fault, he can't control the situation, can't control his teammates. Except in this case he can. Yet it still isn't supposed to matter.
This is really really dumb. I don't even know what "people hate context" is supposed to mean. A "lot of people" don't think it should be used to evaluate players because it isn't a reflection of their ability. Whether the player chooses what team to play on has nothing whatsoever to do with that.
What McGriff tried to pull was unprofessional then and now.
That word does not mean what you think it means.


Jay Z is all some big trolling hoax, right? Nobody could make arguments as bad as his unless it was on purpose, right?
   65. Hysterical & Useless Posted: August 03, 2018 at 07:09 AM (#5720137)
Nobody could make arguments as bad as his unless it was on purpose, right?


David, c'mon, you've been to OTP a couple of times at least.
   66. PreservedFish Posted: August 03, 2018 at 07:13 AM (#5720138)
I'm not even really sure what Jay Z is arguing.
   67. Jay Z Posted: August 03, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5720259)
I am saying that WAR matters when it is applied to a team still in contention.

Why do all of these trades happen? Why do the Brewers trade for Moustakas and Schoop? Why do the Royals and Orioles trade them away? Because the Brewers still care about their 2018 games. And the Royals and Orioles care a lot, lot, less. Moustakas and Schoop are more valuable in 2018 to the Brewers than to their former teams.

The excuse for why the player who remains on a bad team is that he should not be docked for his performance mattering less since he has no choice over his surroundings. If Jones is turning down trades, clearly that is not true for him. He is given the chance to have his performance matter more and is turning it down.

I take it that many people here are a fan of component ball. They just care that Jones hit a home run. Where or when doesn't matter. A product of fantasy baseball mindset I would wager. So all of the deadline deals are irrelevant since winning the games, making the playoffs, is something they care about not at all.

Components are only valuable when they lead to runs or run pre vention, then wins, then the playoffs. Of course, if fantasy baseball is all you care about, you can just add the components up in whatever formula you wish and declare your own winner.
   68. Nasty Nate Posted: August 03, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5720262)

The excuse for why the player who remains on a bad team is that he should not be docked for his performance mattering less since he has no choice over his surroundings.
Who says the player needs an excuse? An excuse for what?
I take it that many people here are a fan of component ball. They just care that Jones hit a home run. Where or when doesn't matter. A product of fantasy baseball mindset I would wager. So all of the deadline deals are irrelevant since winning the games, making the playoffs, is something they care about not at all.
Some people care about the Orioles (or other bad teams) winning games, even though they can't make the playoffs.
   69. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 03, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5720263)
Seriously, I'm waiting for the "Cordially, as always."
   70. PreservedFish Posted: August 03, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5720270)
Yeah #67 is an astonishingly weirdly bad argument. It seems to take an argument that nobody has even hinted at, and then unfairly and weirdly misconstrues it.

Adam Jones is an adult. If he wants to stay in Baltimore because he likes the donut shop by his apartment, that's OK with me.
   71. BDC Posted: August 03, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5720271)
Some people care about the Orioles (or other bad teams) winning games


And as I point out in every such thread, the Orioles' games matter not only to them but to their opponents, some of whom are still in contention.

For instance, just last night I was at the Ballpark and watched Adam Jones go 0-for-3 as his team lost 17-8 to the last-place Rangers. No wait, I seem to have lost my point somewhere here … no matter. If the Orioles happen to play some team whose games do matter – they have series left against Seattle and Oakland, for instance – then Jones' performance is very important.
   72. Ithaca2323 Posted: August 03, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5720278)
Some people care about the Orioles (or other bad teams) winning games, even though they can't make the playoffs.


This. 100% this. To quote Dazed and Confused: "I'd like to quit thinking of the present, like right now, as some minor, insignificant preamble to somethin' else."

It's okay for fans not to play armchair GM all season, and care about other things besides just maximizing teams' playoff chances X number of years down the road. Some people like it when a player, of his own choosing, decides he wants to stay with the same franchise he's been with for a decade, terrible or no.
   73. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 03, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5720313)
I take it that many people here are a fan of component ball. They just care that Jones hit a home run. Where or when doesn't matter. A product of fantasy baseball mindset I would wager. So all of the deadline deals are irrelevant since winning the games, making the playoffs, is something they care about not at all.

Components are only valuable when they lead to runs or run prevention, then wins, then the playoffs. Of course, if fantasy baseball is all you care about, you can just add the components up in whatever formula you wish and declare your own winner.


This is exactly backward. If you play fantasy baseball, you don't care what team any individual player is on. You couldn't care less if Adam Jones gets traded. On the other hand, if you're an Orioles fan, you care very much about what team Adam Jones plays for.

For whatever reason, I have spent most of my baseball fandom following bad teams. Let me tell you, it makes a big difference when you get down to the dog days of August, if you have a star player to root for on your favorite bad team. When the Rockies traded Troy Tulowitzki in 2015, it bothered me because I like watching Tulo play baseball. Not having Tulo around made the 2015 stretch run a lot less fun for me, and for most other Rockies fans.

But Rockies fans count, just as much as Dodger fans or Cub fans or fans of any other team in a pennant race. And Oriole fans count too. If Adam Jones wants to perform for those Oriole fans, rather than fans in some city who barely know his name but happen to be on the fringes of contention this year, then more power to him.
   74. SoSH U at work Posted: August 03, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5720331)

I'm not even really sure what Jay Z is arguing.


Bring back the Reserve Clause?

It clearly bothers him that a player would not choose to play in a pennant race when he has the chance, and he's trying to make a coherent argument out of that fan-based irrationality.



   75. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 03, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5720372)
I am saying that WAR matters when it is applied to a team still in contention.


Then I guess Mike Trout has about 5 WAR over the last 4 years.

I'm not even really sure what Jay Z is arguing.


Arguing for the sake of arguing.

   76. Jay Z Posted: August 03, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5720593)
74:

My arguments don't favor or disfavor any team over time.

I'm a Brewers fan. Team has sucked more often than not. When Molitor left, team went into a downward spiral that lasted a decade. Was tough to take. But I can't blame Molitor. He wanted to win and he did.

It bothers me, a player not caring about winning. I don't give a rat's ass about the Orioles either way. At least Jones has been a lifetime Oriole. Though that will end after this season anyway. He gets paid either way. Yes it seems like he is just cashing his checks and doesn't care about winning.
   77. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 03, 2018 at 08:10 PM (#5720644)
My arguments don't favor or disfavor any team over time.


Your argument favors winning teams over losing teams.

I'm a Brewers fan. Team has sucked more often than not. When Molitor left, team went into a downward spiral that lasted a decade. Was tough to take. But I can't blame Molitor. He wanted to win and he did.


Molitor got to make his own decision about where he wanted to play. I approve of that, and wish to extend the same courtesy to Adam Jones.
   78. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: August 03, 2018 at 08:16 PM (#5720647)
It bothers me, a player not caring about winning. 

Well, he didn't say he doesn't care about winning. It's apparently just not his main priority. I'm not sure why that would bother you.

And frankly, it shouldn't bother you even if he doesn't care about winning at all. He's playing baseball. It's really not that important. I can understand resenting someone if you didn't think they were trying their hardest (even though I wouldn't, unless I were a fan of the team), but as long as the guy is showing up and doing his best to entertain the fans, why would you care what's motivating him?
   79. PreservedFish Posted: August 03, 2018 at 08:58 PM (#5720669)
I get that winning is probably more fun than losing, but at heart a player needs to mostly be concerned with his own effort and output, factors which are only marginally influenced by the quality of one's teammates. Being traded to a good team in July doesn't magically validate your efforts.

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