Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, December 08, 2009

Agreement Reached In Yanks, Tigers, D’Backs Blockbuster

Breaker…

Heyman tweets that an agreement has been reached, with only medicals pending.  We’ll do a fresh post once this trade is official.  To reiterate: the Yankees get Curtis Granderson, the D’Backs get Edwin Jackson and Ian Kennedy, and the Tigers get Max Scherzer, Daniel Schlereth, Austin Jackson, and Phil Coke.

Sherman notes that the Yankees managed to pull off the Granderson acquisition without giving up Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, or Mike Dunn.

Repoz Posted: December 08, 2009 at 08:13 PM | 221 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: arizona, tigers, yankees

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 2 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3 > 
   101. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:09 PM (#3407045)
Awesome, not only do they get Granderson for a couple of guys who will probably never be more than average players, they get rid of Phil Coke. Man, what a worthless piece of crap that ###### turned out to be.

Amen to that, Cowboy, though I might have added about six extra ######s.

The only question is whether or not Granderson really peaked at 26 (135 OPS+), or just had two correctable years of decline (123, 100). But for his salary it amounts to a "what can we lose?" flyer, since Kennedy hasn't shown much since 2007, Coke is erratic and undependable, and Jackson's power stats suggest that he took a time machine back to 1918.
   102. esseff Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:10 PM (#3407048)
Is Schlereth in or out of this deal? ESPN not mentioning him. Scherzer for Jackson and Kennedy would it a much better deal for the Snakes.
   103. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:11 PM (#3407050)
So the Yankees give up absolutely nothing and get Granderson? Awesome.
   104. spycake Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:11 PM (#3407051)
.210/.270./.344... plus 169 Ks in 685 PAs.


Well, that K rate isn't all that much worse than Granderson's overall K rate.

And the Yankees should be able to put a great RHB directly behind Granderson, which should help. Not to mention a general boost that should come his way, hitting in that lineup and in Yankee Stadium.
   105. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:11 PM (#3407052)
He's lovely against RHP, but the man simply sucks something awful against lefties.
Brutal. And if the Yankees let him get 200 PAs vs. lefties, that will be a mistake. Melky's .255/.325/.355 is nothing special, but it is a big step-up from Grandy.

(See, I can call him "Grandy" now, because he's on the Yankees. This is great!)
   106. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:12 PM (#3407054)
The Yankees are now being run efficiently, which scares the heck out of me.

What, did you think that the Pavano era was going to last forever? Did you think that George was going to come back and replace Cashman? As always, brains + money generally rules the baseball world. It doesn't mean that it'll hit on all cylinders every year, but when it does.....
   107. Posada Posse Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:15 PM (#3407060)
It will be interesting to see if the Yanks go after Damon now. Matsui probably out of the picture, I guess?
   108. Paxton Crawford Ranch Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:15 PM (#3407061)
Does service time matter?

I was under the impression Scherzer signed an MLB contract that essentially covered what would have been his arb years.


It matters in determining when a player qualifies for free agency and arbitration -- 6 years for FA, 3 or close to it for arb, regardless of what contract he signed coming out of the draft. Scherzer's deal covers 2007-2010 at $4.3M with bonuses he'll presumably reach bringing it up to $6M. He'll then have one more year of pre-arb and three arb years. It's basically just a way to spread out a signing bonus over a few years for a guy close enough to the majors you think he'll stick in the bigs before his options run out.
   109. Norcan Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:19 PM (#3407066)
It took brains to sign Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeria for vaults of money? For all his brains and two hundred million, Cashman still had zero hitting off the bench and only one trustworthy reliever. If baseball actually played a reasonable postseason schedule instead of mangling it so it doesn't resemble regular season play at all, they would have gotten screwed having to pitch Gaudin in the rotation or broken down their starters pitching on short rest for three rounds.
   110. Gold Star for Robothal Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:20 PM (#3407068)
I can't believe people think Max Scherzer, who outperformed Edwin Jackson last year, and who has phenomenal stuff and a great track record in the minors, is a "magic bean."

Schlereth is a potential closer. He had some wildness last year, but also struck out like 12 guys per 9 innings; even w/ his hellacious control in the majors, his FIP was 4.02, as he was striking out 10 guys per 9, and gave up 1 homer in 18 innings. Consider him the Tigers' Daniel Bard now.

Austin Jackson is over-hyped, but he can still be a second-division starter in center, which has its value.
   111. spycake Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:20 PM (#3407069)
I don't like this for the Tigers because they basically gave up Jackson AND Granderson for Scherzer. That doesn't seem like a good deal to me.


Agreed. In a trade without any impact prospects, the Tigers gave up 2 established, quality major leaguers, and only got a semi-established one back in Scherzer. And the D-backs basically gave up one (Scherzer) to get one (Jackson).

The Yankees, meanwhile, gave up two non-impact prospects and Phil Coke, yet got a quality major league CF with a great contract in return.

Would the trade have been more even if Arizona had sent Chris Young to Detroit, while the Yankees sent significant cash to Detroit to cover his salary? Not sure where Young stands in the D-backs future...
   112. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:21 PM (#3407070)
Nice work D'Backs. I haven't seen a trade this bad since I grabbed a Tony Gwynn rookie card for an Odibe McDowell "Future Stars" card. Since the guy I was dealing with was only 10, I'll give him a pass. Can anyone find an excuse for Arizona?
   113. zonk Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:22 PM (#3407073)
Ahhh - OK - I was under the impression that the DBacks/Scherzer had settled on a 6 year deal.

As for Granderson's LHP struggles - absolutely, the Yankees are perhaps the only team that could afford multi-millions on a short-side platoon mate... they've also got plenty of lefty thumpers in the lineup.

BUT - none of that changes the fact that Granderson's ineptitude against LHP is a pretty big flaw.

And hey - let's not forget what happened the last time the Yankees traded for a guy with extreme platoon splits... though - I guess the chances of Austin Melian turning into Jay Buhner are pretty remote.
   114. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:24 PM (#3407078)
In a trade without any impact prospects, the Tigers gave up 2 established, quality major leaguers, and only got a semi-established one back in Scherzer. And the D-backs basically gave up one (Scherzer) to get one (Jackson).

I can see that but the Tigers saved a nice chunk of change and got a very good, young (and cheap) pitcher back. They could end up regretting the deal but I can see it working out for them also. Conversely, I'm not clear how this helps the D'Backs.
   115. Spahn Insane Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:24 PM (#3407080)
"Phil Coke" is the best baseball name in the deal. Highly underrated name. "Max Scherzer" is the second best, and would rate more highly if it didn't sound made up.

It doesn't sound made up; it just sounds like the name of an extra from "Judgment at Nuremberg."
   116. aleskel Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:25 PM (#3407081)
For all his brains and two hundred million, Cashman still had zero hitting off the bench and only one trustworthy reliever

That's like saying, "sure, Hendrix was great on the guitar, but the dude was s#@t on the trombone!"
   117. Every Inge Counts Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:25 PM (#3407082)
So are the Tigers now in the running for a bat like Holliday? I have no idea.
   118. Bug Selig Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:28 PM (#3407084)
How can people not know whether Granderson plays left or center and still feel the need to comment on his value?
   119. Norcan Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:28 PM (#3407085)
Scherzer did not have a better year than Jackson. He had a better strikeout rate but Jackson pitched 44 more innings and had a better ERA despite pitching in the AL. Maybe Scherzer projects as a better bet because of Jackson's prior struggles and lower K-rate but he did not have a better year than Jackson last season. Jackson also has phenomenal stuff as well, arguably better than Scherzer. Future health-wise, it's a no brainer for Jackson over Scherzer who has a violent delivery which had some scouts still thinking he might end up in the bullpen.
   120. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:29 PM (#3407086)
I'm so conflicted. On the one hand, I love Curtis Granderson. On the other hand, #### the Yankees.
   121. Mark Armour Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:29 PM (#3407087)
Granderson was my favorite player until an hour ago. I used to like Sabathia too, but found myself rooting for a broken leg on opening day (along with a long and healthy life surrounded by loved ones).
   122. Tripon Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:30 PM (#3407088)
That's Maxwell M. Scherzer to you.
   123. RJ in TO Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:30 PM (#3407089)
On the other hand, #### the Yankees.


In any discussion like this, \"#### the Yankees" is the only reasonable position.
   124. MikeinMI Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:33 PM (#3407093)
Granderson was my favorite player until an hour ago.


In Curtis' defense, he didn't choose to go there or demand a trade or anything like that.
   125. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:34 PM (#3407096)
I live two hours from Detroit, so every other Facebook status update right now is all like "DAVE DOMBROWSKI YOU ####### IDIOT HOW COULD YOU TRADE CURRRRRRTTIIISS NOOOOOOOO!!!!! IM NOT A FAN ANYMORE!!!"
   126. RJ in TO Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:36 PM (#3407099)
In Curtis' defense, he didn't choose to go there or demand a trade or anything like that.


He's a Yankee now. There's no defense for that at all.
   127. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:36 PM (#3407101)
It took brains to sign Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeria for vaults of money?

No, but it took a certain amount of planning and restraint to free up enough payroll to sign them all. And it took a certain amount of restraint not to go after the sort of geezers that they'd loaded up on before (Brown, Unit). With that kind of bankroll, "smart" is all that's required, not "genius."

For all his brains and two hundred million, Cashman still had zero hitting off the bench and only one trustworthy reliever.

Well, with a starting nine like they had last year, a great bench wasn't quite as necessary as it might be for other teams, especially with 4 starting switch-hitters. Wouldn't a team 122 OPS+ tend to confirm that?

And only one trustworthy reliever? Either you have insanely high standards, or you're extrapolating a couple of bad postseason outings by Hughes into the regular season. Hughes was an absolute stud as a setup man from the day he was taken out of the rotation.

You want a nice little stat? In games where the Yankees were tied after 7 innings, they were undefeated for the entire season. I can live with that kind of a bullpen.

If baseball actually played a reasonable postseason schedule instead of mangling it so it doesn't resemble regular season play at all, they would have gotten screwed having to pitch Gaudin in the rotation or broken down their starters pitching on short rest for three rounds.

Gaudin (125 ERA+ with the Yanks) wasn't nearly as bad as you think, and it's not as if the other three teams wouldn't have had to make adjustments, too.

And remember, kiddies---the Winter isn't over yet.
   128. SteveF Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:37 PM (#3407102)
It's OK for the Yankees to have a lousy bench since there's almost nobody in the lineup you'd consider pinch hitting for.

And relief pitchers are all lottery tickets at nearly any price. I can't really fault the Yankees for their roster construction, except perhaps for having too many DH types. I could see some value in a speed/defense bench. The lineup already has enough power.
   129. strummer Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:38 PM (#3407103)
That's like saying, "sure, Hendrix was great on the guitar, but the dude was s#@t on the trombone!"


Not really, as Hendrix wasn't expected to play 1/3 of his set on brass.

How can people not know whether Granderson plays left or center and still feel the need to comment on his value?


Heh, I was wondering the same thing.

As a Tigers fan, I am, of course, disappointed to see Granderson and Jackson go. But this seems to be a case of "selling high". In a year, Granderson won't be so cheap and will his BA continue to decline? Will his walk rate continue to decline? Conversely, Jackson has improved the past couple of years. Will it continue? Will he pitch like he did in the first half of 2009 (2.52 ERA) or the second half (5.07)?
   130. SteveF Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:39 PM (#3407107)
No, but it took a certain amount of planning and restraint to free up enough payroll to sign them all.


This should prove fruitful.
   131. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:40 PM (#3407109)
In any discussion like this, "#### the Yankees" is the only reasonable position.


I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

A few thoughts:

1) Scherzer/Schlereth > Jackson/Kennedy...
2)...unless Scherzer's arm is going to fall off, since it's been rumored to do that for quite a while.
3) Yanks made out well, but it isn't some huge steal methinks.
4) Tigers did very well unless the arm-falling-off thing.
5) Get the #### out, Selig, and take your revenue-sharing with you.
   132. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:41 PM (#3407111)
This ####### blows.
   133. RJ in TO Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:42 PM (#3407115)
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


You might find it somewhat less than fulfilling. It's nothing but \"#### the Yankees" repeated for 64 pages.
   134. Randy Jones Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:43 PM (#3407116)
KLaw's analysis of the trade is up on ESPN Insider now. He calls the Tigers the big winners, says the Yankees made out well because they improved their CF situation without giving up much, and can't explain why the DBacks would do this deal.
   135. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:43 PM (#3407117)
Didn't Jackson throw a complete game shutout against the D-backs during his rookie season? Maybe they think he can do that again...30 times.
   136. The Original SJ Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:43 PM (#3407118)
"I wonder what the hell Girardi is going to do when a left hander comes up to bat after the 6th inning."

Marte, amybe sign Mike Gonzalez too.
   137. Norcan Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:45 PM (#3407120)
Gaudin (125 ERA+ with the Yanks) wasn't nearly as bad as you think, and it's not as if the other three teams wouldn't have had to make adjustments, too.


Oh yes, in 42 wonderful innings in which he walked 4.3 per 9. You have got to be kidding if you're seriously arguing that Gaudin wouldn't have been the worst pitcher to start a world series game ever.
   138. AROM Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:49 PM (#3407126)
.210/.270./.344... plus 169 Ks in 685 PAs.

He's lovely against RHP, but the man simply sucks something awful against lefties.


The Tigers played him everyday in spite of that. Give Curtis a platoon partner, and we could be looking at a .375/.500 if he's only facing RHP.
   139. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:50 PM (#3407128)


Oh yes, in 42 wonderful innings in which he walked 4.3 per 9. You have got to be kidding if you're seriously arguing that Gaudin wouldn't have been the worst pitcher to start a world series game ever.
45 year old jamie moyer says, "hello"
   140. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:50 PM (#3407129)
You might find it somewhat less than fulfilling. It's nothing but "#### the Yankees" repeated for 64 pages.


I would actually find that quite enjoyable right now. Do you sell short-term subscriptions?
   141. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:51 PM (#3407130)
As a Tigers fan, I am, of course, disappointed to see Granderson and Jackson go. But this seems to be a case of "selling high". In a year, Granderson won't be so cheap and will his BA continue to decline? Will his walk rate continue to decline? Conversely, Jackson has improved the past couple of years. Will it continue? Will he pitch like he did in the first half of 2009 (2.52 ERA) or the second half (5.07)?

As a Tigers fan, yes they sold high on both. OPS decline for Granderson from .913 to .780 since age 26 season, decline in SB rate since age 26 season, decline in walk rate. He's still young enough to be "young," but he's not as good as he was when he was younger. Big home/road, left/right splits. Probably a fluke, but in the last 2-3 weeks last year, he had several strange episodes of hideously misjudging simple fly balls, even at home. By the last week, you were scared every time the ball was hit to him.

Jackson's first half of 2009 was a clear outlier. The second half looks like a textbook case of reversion to mean.

They're two guys with enough there to rate as good-to-excellent. Imaginations can still run wild enough to think Jackson may someday border on elite. But the con argument for both is every bit as strong as the pro. Another 2009 for Granderson in 2010 and his value slides. A second half 2009 or pre-2009 for Jackson in 2010 and his value plummets.

These winter meetings strike me as a great time to trade them.
   142. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:53 PM (#3407137)
You have got to be kidding if you're seriously arguing that Gaudin wouldn't have been the worst pitcher to start a world series game ever.
Josh Fogg, Brandon Backe, Tony Saunders and that's just from the past 15 years or so.
   143. aleskel Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:53 PM (#3407139)
Denny Neagle
   144. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:54 PM (#3407140)
This deal is driving Gammons into retirement.

It's either this one or the 2-yr, $6M deal the Nats just gave Pudge.

EDIT: $6M, not $3M.
   145. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: December 08, 2009 at 09:56 PM (#3407144)
Jaret Wright started a Game 7.
   146. The Original SJ Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:00 PM (#3407147)
Also, Bobby Jones?
   147. strummer Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:01 PM (#3407149)
SugarBear - That is exactly where I'm at with my assessment of the trade. And I'm glad you brought up defense. Granderson has been held up as a plus defender. I do not possess the necessary skills to judge a person's defensive ability either visually or statistically, but I do know while listening to Rod & Maria on the broadcasts, they more frequently than I recall in previous seasons called out his miscues in the field.

It seems Granderson and Jackson still have the All-Star shine on them and I am dubious they can either revert back to 2007 or 1st half 2009 form.
   148. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:03 PM (#3407152)
So the Yankees give up absolutely nothing and get Granderson? Awesome.

I don't think Kennedy is going to end up being nothing, but I have little to support that assertion.
   149. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:09 PM (#3407163)
I don't think Kennedy is going to end up being nothing, but I have little to support that assertion.
A 1.95 ERA, 9.9 K/9 and 3.55:1 K/BB ratio in the minors.

It would be stupid to sell Ian Kennedy as a top prospect because of his unexceptional raw stuff and major league struggles. But there's good solid potential there, and he could be a better-than-average starter for several years if he can translate it to the majors.
   150. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:14 PM (#3407168)
It would be stupid to sell Ian Kennedy as a top prospect because of his unexceptional raw stuff and major league struggles. But there's good solid potential there, and he could be a better-than-average starter for several years if he can translate it to the majors.

How's the Diamondback OF defense? Kennedy is a FB pitcher, which may hurt him in that ballpark (IIRC), so hopefully the OF defense is able to compensate for that some.
   151. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:14 PM (#3407169)
Nady would seem to make sense as a platoon piece with Granderson, and could probably be had fairly cheaply.
   152. Tim D Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:14 PM (#3407170)
Granderson is a dynamic player and Yankee fans will like him. He strikes out a lot and he will hit 7th or 8th against lefties, if he plays. I think Austin Jackson is being underrated by the "Yanks hype their prospects crowd." He hit .300 in AAA at 22. Granderson hit .286 in Lakeland at 22. Granderson has always had more power but I think Jackson has Denard Spann upside. I've heard nothing to suggest Jackson can't handle CF. Granderson is over 30 and over $10 mil after 2010. Move him a year early.

I would guess the Tigers see Scherzer as an upgrade over a E. Jackson. Certainly a year ago we would have been looking for crack in the D'Backs front office if they swapped Scherzer for Jackson. Scherzer is younger and has a history of success. Jackson is older, more expensive, has more innings an his arm, and has a history of failing to live up to his potential. He pitched like an ace for three months and then pitched like.... well, like Edwin Jackson. A lot of smart people thought the Tigers were crazy to trade Matt Joyce for Jackson. So is Scherzer somehow worse after a decent year in a ML rotation?

The Yanks are in win now mode and they get a good player without giving up Hughes or Chamberlain. A no brainer.

The Tigers get two big upside players, two lefties for the pen, and clear 10+ mil off the books. (Yankees fans, that is a lot for some teams). A no brainer.

The D'Backs? I still think they are smoking crack. Afraid of the injury risk? See Pedro Martinez for Delino DeShields. (Not to suggest Scherzer is that good, but you get the idea)Scherzer is no more vulnerable to injury than Lincecum. Or Verlander for that matter. Or Edwin Jackson. Jackson "might" give them more for 2010 than Scherzer. And Kennedy "might" be good.
   153. JPWF13 Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:15 PM (#3407172)
since Kennedy hasn't shown much since 2007, Coke is erratic and undependable, and Jackson's power stats suggest that he took a time machine back to 1918.

I don't think Kennedy is going to end up being nothing, but I have little to support that assertion.


Having seen him "pitch" for the Yankees I had a hard time believing Kennedy's minor league stat lines when I first saw them: 249 IP, 273/77 k/bb, 1.95 ERA.

What's he going to do? No idea honestly, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he tosses out a few 180+ IP 120ish ERA+ seasons
   154. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:15 PM (#3407173)
A 1.95 ERA, 9.9 K/9 and 3.55:1 K/BB ratio in the minors.

Well, I didn't mean LITTLE, in fact, as I re-read that it sounds like a knock on Kennedy - just the opposite. I basically think all this whining about how little the Yankees gave up to get something awesome is kind of wrong.

Although, I understand - here was my comment to a Yankee friend on IM: "Oh jesus, you guys got smart, nice guy Granderson for your stepford ballplayer soulsucker machine."

So, I get it.
   155. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:16 PM (#3407174)
Granderson is 29.
   156. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:19 PM (#3407177)
Denard Span never struck out nearly as much as Austin Jackson.

I've had grave doubts about Jackson's utility for a while.
   157. Gaelan Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:20 PM (#3407179)
What a calamity. The only drama next year is how many games the Yankees are going to win. The Yankees gave up nothing and got the best player in the deal. This is a catastrophe for the Diamondbacks while the Tigers have nothing to be excited about.
   158. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:28 PM (#3407187)
When calculating payroll for luxury tax purposes, do the yankees get hit with the AAV for the entire contract ($6 million a year) or only for their portion (more like 8)
   159. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:28 PM (#3407188)
Gaelan,
I'm not sure why you'd say that. the Yankees lost Damon and Matsui, two key offensive contributors. I see Granderson more as a savvy and economical move than a ZOMG YANKZ WILL DOMINATE move.
   160. Gamingboy Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:30 PM (#3407189)
Gentlemen. Somebody needs to get photos of Derek Jeter screwing Elin Nordgren. Now. It may be our only hope.


*this was a joke
   161. chemdoc Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:30 PM (#3407190)
The Tigers get two big upside players, two lefties for the pen, and clear 10+ mil off the books. (Yankees fans, that is a lot for some teams). A no brainer.


The Tigers get two lefties for the pen, neither of whom may be better than Bobby Seay or Fu-Te Ni right now, although Schlereth may be better later.

The Tigers have a large question mark on the lineup card next to the letters "CF", in a spacious outfield where the names next to "LF" and "RF" will often be Guillen and Ordonez.

The Tigers have no obvious candidates to bat in the 1st 2 positions in their batting order.

The Tigers are clearly hoping to finish fourth in the AL Central for the foreseeable future.
   162. Tim D Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:31 PM (#3407192)
"Granderson is 29."

I said, "Granderson is over 30 and over $10 mil after 2010. Move him a year early."

So thanks for proving my point.

"Denard Span never struck out nearly as much as Austin Jackson."

Ok, so who does Jackson compare to? He hit .300 in AAA at 22, he takes an occasional walk, he can run and play CF, he K's too much and his power has gone south. At 22 he's still likely to improve. He could be plenty useful.

Every trade is a gamble. I can't say this is a bad gamble for the Tigers.
   163. base ball chick Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:31 PM (#3407193)
brandon backe?

you mean the guy who gave up 4 singles, 1 walks and no runs over 8 innings and shouldn't have been pulled at all?

he outpitched roy oswalt, roger clemens and andy pettitte.
   164. Tripon Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:32 PM (#3407194)
The Tigers rotation is now Verlander, Porcello, and Mad Max for the next 3 or 4 years. They will be fine.
   165. NaOH Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:33 PM (#3407196)
When calculating payroll for luxury tax purposes, do the yankees get hit with the AAV for the entire contract ($6 million a year) or only for their portion (more like 8)

For the CBT, the Yankees will only be assessed an annual $6MM figure for Gransderson (the contracts AAV) even though the actual out-of-pocket cost will average $8.6MM over the next three seasons. If the team picks up the $2013 option, the CBT assessment will match the actual salary for that year.
   166. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:33 PM (#3407197)
brandon backe?

you mean the guy who gave up 4 singles, 1 walks and no runs over 8 innings and shouldn't have been pulled at all?

he outpitched roy oswalt, roger clemens and andy pettitte.
The guy who has a career ERA+ of 82.
   167. KronicFatigue Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:34 PM (#3407198)
Gaelan,
I'm not sure why you'd say that. the Yankees lost Damon and Matsui, two key offensive contributors. I see Granderson more as a savvy and economical move than a ZOMG YANKZ WILL DOMINATE move.


It's b/c they aren't done yet. They are being savvy for a reason....
   168. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:35 PM (#3407201)
you mean the guy who gave up 4 singles, 1 walks and no runs over 8 innings and shouldn't have been pulled at all?
I didn't say he had a bad start. I just said he was among the candidates for worst pitcher to start a World Series game. Which, let's face it, he is: 31-29, 5.23 (82 ERA+), 525 IP.
   169. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:38 PM (#3407205)
Oh yes, in 42 wonderful innings in which he walked 4.3 per 9. You have got to be kidding if you're seriously arguing that Gaudin wouldn't have been the worst pitcher to start a world series game ever.

I'd have to say the version of Lefty Williams who pitched in 1919 was worse.
   170. New York Necks Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:38 PM (#3407206)
The most accurate-sounding comp I've heard for AJax is Mike Cameron without the power. Or, Granderson, but not quite as fast and without the power. He needs another year in AAA to work on not striking out all time, but he should be ready for the majors in 2011.
   171. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:38 PM (#3407207)
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


You might find it somewhat less than fulfilling. It's nothing but "#### the Yankees" repeated for 64 pages.

Sounds like the Republican National Committee's newsletter, only that one's 6400 pages, with "government" substituted for "Yankees" in every sentence.

-------------------

It would be stupid to sell Ian Kennedy as a top prospect because of his unexceptional raw stuff and major league struggles. But there's good solid potential there, and he could be a better-than-average starter for several years if he can translate it to the majors.

I agree with that, Larry. Kennedy was always on a short leash with the Yanks after his injury, and if the Diamondbacks show some patience he could possibly be the best player in the whole deal. I know that I'm rooting for him to be that.
   172. New York Necks Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:41 PM (#3407211)
[171] I also had hoped to see IPK redeem himself in the majors, but this trade puts him in a very good situation to succeed. He gets to pitch in his home state and pitch in the NL West. I think he's going look good, if not thrive as a #4 starter.
   173. Ron Johnson Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:43 PM (#3407214)
#163, BBC bad pitchers can pitch great games. Even in the World Series.

As for keeping him in after 7, it pains me to say it but I'm with Garner. There were better pitchers available and no particular reason to think that whatever magic Backe had on the day would continue.

Didn't work out.
   174. Snowboy Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:44 PM (#3407215)
That OF of Austin Jackson, Wilkin Ramirez, and Brent Clevlen will keep the fans cool aaaaaaall summer in Toledo with their whiffing bats.

What's the AAA record for team Ks? Adding Jackson to Hessman, Dlugach, Clevlen, and Ramirez might have Toledo making a run at it...
   175. JJ1986 Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:45 PM (#3407217)
Hessman's going to be in Buffalo next year.
   176. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:46 PM (#3407218)
TIm,
i just misunderstood what you meant when you said Granderson is over 30, which, in the context of your sentence, I now understand.
   177. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:48 PM (#3407223)
I see Granderson more as a savvy and economical move than a ZOMG YANKZ WILL DOMINATE move.


Me too. But in this FA market it's a little hard for them to top the ZOMG moves from last offseason.
   178. Gaelan Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:48 PM (#3407224)
I'm not sure why you'd say that. the Yankees lost Damon and Matsui, two key offensive contributors. I see Granderson more as a savvy and economical move than a ZOMG YANKZ WILL DOMINATE move.


You're forgetting that this guarantees that the Yankees will sign Holliday.
   179. RJ in TO Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:48 PM (#3407225)
Hessman's going to be in Buffalo next year.


Poor bastard. Who did he piss off?
   180. Tim D Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:52 PM (#3407228)
chemdoc:

Jackson will play CF and get a shot at leadoff. He may not do much this year, but he won't be the worst CF in the league. And he won't strike out much (if any) more than Granderson.

Rayburn and Thomas will both play more in the OF than Guillen or Ordonez. Sizemore will play 2B and hit second. These solutions may not work very well in 2010 but when you have all that money sunk into Nate Robertson, Dontrelle Willis, Carlos Guillen, etc, you have to punt somewhere. (unless you are in NY).

They will likely be 4th this year. They are giving up a lot of power, but they are getting back 3 pitchers for one. They get $60 million off the books after 2010. Think about that. And they will still have Cabrera, Verlander, Porcello and Scherzer. And a bunch of power arms in the pen. Expect them to move some more guys.

A $140 mil payroll in Detroit was not sustainable. They drew 635,000 less fans this year. They had to win in 2008 or 2009. It didn't happen. Reload. I'm optimistic.
   181. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:54 PM (#3407230)
Poor bastard. Who did he piss off?


god. who, apparently, is a Yankees fan.
   182. Stately, Plump Buck Mulligan Posted: December 08, 2009 at 10:59 PM (#3407234)
The Tigers are clearly hoping to finish fourth in the AL Central for the foreseeable future.


The Tigers haven't finished in first place since 1987, back when I was a junior in high school. I see no reason why they'd want to start becoming a good team now.
   183. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:00 PM (#3407236)
god. who, apparently, is a Yankees fan.

You just realized this!?
   184. Snowboy Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:00 PM (#3407237)
Hessman's going to be in Buffalo next year.

There goes my attempt to find the positive. Darn Mets!

Ok, so who does Jackson compare to? He hit .300 in AAA at 22, he takes an occasional walk, he can run and play CF, he K's too much and his power has gone south. At 22 he's still likely to improve. He could be plenty useful.

AJackson, 22, 2009 SWB: 123K/40BB
DBrown, 22, 2000 OMA: 112K/37BB

Hmm, maybe not a good comp. Brown slugged .491, Jackson slugged .405. 405! I have grave doubts that someone who strikes out once a game and can only slug 405 is gonna make it.

I don't have a database to find a comp. Szymborski will have one.
   185. New York Necks Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:04 PM (#3407240)
god. who, apparently, is a Yankees fan.

You just realized this!?
I don't think it's a stretch to say that Mariano is a fan of his own team.
   186. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:07 PM (#3407241)
I don't have a database to find a comp. Szymborski will have one.


JacksonAustin CF TerreroLuis RepkoJason MoranJavon
   187. Ned Garvin: Male Prostitute Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:13 PM (#3407248)
Devon White? CD, good D, lots of strikeouts.
   188. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:19 PM (#3407254)
Ok, so who does Jackson compare to? He hit .300 in AAA at 22, he takes an occasional walk, he can run and play CF, he K's too much and his power has gone south. At 22 he's still likely to improve. He could be plenty useful.

His translated line from last year is in the .260/.310/.340 vicinity. He Ked as much at AAA as Granderson did in MLB. Useful, maybe, but I'd be surprised if he's ever a starter on a good team.
   189. The Good Face Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:25 PM (#3407266)
Devon White? CD, good D, lots of strikeouts.


Devon White had the reputation of being a stupendous defensive CF. I haven't read anything about Austin Jackson's defense that makes him out to be more than average-to-good. Also, White had some power. I'd be pretty surprised if Jackson hits more than 200 ML home runs...
   190. Hugh Jorgan Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:26 PM (#3407269)
After perusing just a few of the posts, I get the sense that Gamingboy isn't pleased with the NY upgrade at CF?
   191. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:27 PM (#3407272)
Devon White had the reputation of being a stupendous defensive CF.


He certainly seemed that way to the naked eye. And he was breathtakingly fast. Just watching him run was a joy.
   192. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:28 PM (#3407273)
"You have got to be kidding if you're seriously arguing that Gaudin wouldn't have been the worst pitcher to start a world series game ever."

Worst Pirate WS starters (IMO), in decreasing order of marginal-ness:

Jim Rooker, 1979. Fifth/sixth starter, 36 years old (and one year from retirement), 17 starts, 85 ERA+, 1.13 K/BB. Allowed one run in 5 IP, left down 1-0, won 7-1.

Bob Moose, 1971. Fifth/sixth starter, 18 starts, 84 ERA+, 4.4 K/9. Allowed one run in 5 IP, left leading 2-1, lost 3-2.

Brickyard Kennedy, 1903. Fourth/fifth starter in a time of shallow rotations, 15 starts, 94 ERA+, 39/57 K/BB. Forced into a more prominent role after Ed Doheny lost his mind and got committed to an asylum. Allowed ten runs (four earned) in 7 IP, left down 10-0, lost 11-2.
   193. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:29 PM (#3407280)
"JacksonAustin CF TerreroLuis RepkoJason MoranJavon"

Boy, that's terrifying.
   194. RJ in TO Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:31 PM (#3407281)
Devon White had the reputation of being a stupendous defensive CF.


The reputation is generally backed up by the stats. In his years with the Angels and the Jays, the B-R total zone stats show him as a consistent +15 CF.
   195. Tripon Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:31 PM (#3407283)
Jason Repko is a comp for Austin Jackson? Ouch.
   196. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:35 PM (#3407289)
The Tigers haven't finished in first place since 1987, back when I was a junior in high school. I see no reason why they'd want to start becoming a good team now.

Ahh, yes, this thread wouldn't have been complete with you stopping by to run your mouth. Enjoy the Alex Rios Era.
   197. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:40 PM (#3407301)
"Jason Repko is a comp for Austin Jackson? Ouch."

Not just any comp - the best-case scenario. Moran got cut by the Phillies without ever making the majors, and Terrero (who spent last season as a bench player for the Northern League's Kansas City T-Bones) put up a .234/.319/.356 line in 551 ML AB.
   198. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:45 PM (#3407306)
As a fan, this trade is the cherry on top of the absolutely heartbreaking run the Tigers have been on since around August 1. Blowing the lead, Drunky Cabrera, Randy Marsh, eeccccccch.
Curtis Granderson was easily my favourite player, my favourite since Trammell, and seeing him dealt with a lot left to give, and dealt to the Yankees at that, is brutal. Enjoy him, Yankees fans, he's a truckload of fun to watch (although I agree with SB's observation about his bizarre yips in CF at season's end).

As for Edwin Jackson, it really seems like this is selling high at its finest. He was a mess after the ASB, which is to say he was Edwin Jackson. Basically turning Matt Joyce into a great four months from EJ and now Max Scherzer is a steal for Dombrowski.


I don't really rate Austin Jackson, but besides that the Tigers got some pretty good pieces here. Scherzer, especially considering contract and control, is a great addition. The interesting question is what the hell happens next. The team is in a winnable position still, IF it gets another bat or two. Unfortunately all signs point to not trying in 10, but that really doesn't jibe with what we know of Illitch and DD.
   199. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:47 PM (#3407308)
JacksonAustin CF TerreroLuis RepkoJason MoranJavon

That's just for next season, right?
   200. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 08, 2009 at 11:49 PM (#3407310)
Is it at all strange that this deal hasn't been confirmed by any of the teams if it really was agreed to hours ago? I've seen it claimed on other sites that the players haven't been informed. Can teams trade medical records without telling the players? Seems like a HIPPAA issue, but maybe the UPC has a blanket waiver for purposes of making trades?
Page 2 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'.
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: The NHL is finally back thread, part 2
(237 - 1:00am, Apr 25)
Last: STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum

NewsblogIndians Usher Says He Was Fired for Refusing to Wear Pro-Sin Tax Sticker
(27 - 12:55am, Apr 25)
Last: Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams)

NewsblogOTP April 2014: BurstNET Sued for Not Making Equipment Lease Payments
(2654 - 12:54am, Apr 25)
Last: Ron J

NewsblogOT: NBA Monthly Thread - April 2014
(531 - 12:48am, Apr 25)
Last: Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

NewsblogMichael Pineda ejected from Red Sox game after pine tar discovered on neck
(128 - 12:44am, Apr 25)
Last: Buck Coats

NewsblogKeri: Slump City: Why Does the 2014 MLB Season Suddenly Feel Like 1968?
(47 - 12:36am, Apr 25)
Last: PreservedFish

Jim's Lab NotesWe're Moved! (And Burst.net can bite me!)
(107 - 12:25am, Apr 25)
Last: Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame)

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread March, 2014
(1070 - 12:12am, Apr 25)
Last: Textbook Editor

NewsblogJonah Keri Extended Interview | Video | Late Night with Seth Meyers | NBC
(16 - 12:08am, Apr 25)
Last: Manny Coon

NewsblogToronto Star: Blue Jays pave way for grass at the Rogers Centre
(22 - 12:06am, Apr 25)
Last: Shock

NewsblogOMNICHATTER for 4-24-2014
(61 - 12:02am, Apr 25)
Last: Rickey! In a van on 95 south...

NewsblogNY Times: The Upshot: Up Close on Baseball’s Borders
(60 - 12:00am, Apr 25)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogMatt Williams: No problem with Harper's two-strike bunting
(30 - 11:59pm, Apr 24)
Last: KT's Pot Arb

NewsblogConnie Marrero, oldest Major Leaguer, dies at 102
(25 - 11:47pm, Apr 24)
Last: Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee

NewsblogJosh Lueke Is A Rapist, You Say? Keep Saying It.
(260 - 10:13pm, Apr 24)
Last: CrosbyBird

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

 

Page rendered in 1.0620 seconds
52 querie(s) executed