I was at his first game back as a Met, and I booed the heck out of him. The Braves creamed him that day. It was pretty nice.

Don't worry. Mets fans don't care for Glavine much, either.

Yeah... That game was great too.

I'm gonna try to be there for the number being retired, 'cause I do respect what he did for the team all those years. But it deal feel good to see him lose that first game back.

One of my least favorite players of all time. I felt like watching him pitch made me stupider. Still not really sure how he did it. Watching that endless stream of changeups to the outside succeed so fantastically, it looked like Glavine had exposed a flaw in the mechanics of the game, like pitching nothing but fastballs on the inside when you're playing Baseball Stars.

Comment #4 is why hard-line sabermetrics occasionally upsets me. Real scientists don't get mad when their models break, they figure out better models.

[4] The flaw was the absence of QuesTec.

On a totally unrelated topic: Whatever happened to Leo Mazzone?

On a totally unrelated topic: Whatever happened to Leo Mazzone?

He's on the radio in Atlanta and he's completely unlistenable. Just like nearly everyone else on Atlanta radio. Or any radio, come to think of it.

Comment #4 is why hard-line sabermetrics occasionally upsets me.

That was one of the things I loved about Glavine -- reading the articles, year after year, explaining how he was doing it with smoke and mirrors, and how 1998 1999 2000 2001 was the year he finally got exposed.

Of course, if you keep predicting a player's going to fail, you will be right. Eventually. Even if it takes a decade to get there.

I couldn't agree more with #4, and I don't think it has anything to do with sabermetrics (unless the imputed problem is that there's no saber model for umpiring?)--Glavine was a genius: he understood that umpiring was in a state of systemic fail, and that he could take advantage. In other eras he'd have been a marginal guy, spot starter type....

In other eras he'd have been a marginal guy, spot starter type....

Or, he would have adapted, and found another way to succeed.

This is a guy who hardly ever missed a turn, and was tough as nails. All of this hating on him is pure BS.

Glavine was pretty good in his late 30s, for a guy in his late 30s, after QuesTec showed up.

In other eras [Glavine]'d have been a marginal guy, spot starter type....

Worst post ever, including the political threads.

All of this hating on him is pure BS.

No, hating him is perfectly acceptable. Saying he wasn't that good is BS.

In the years when he was here, I saw only one game he pitched in. He got shelled. I booed. As someone else wrote, I'd boo him at his HOF induction. Hated him as an opponent, hated him even more as a team member.

yeah, I was exaggerating, but I do think in any other era he is a guy who pitches a bunch of games with an ERA+ of 100ish and never sees a single HOF vote. of course it's unprovable; and yes, the guy is my least favorite MLB player.

my grandma was tough as nails [low-hanging fruit] and hardly ever missed a turn[ditto]: nobody gave her her own private strike zone.

I remember in 1991 when the umps got together and decided to give Glavine his own private strike zone.

The guy could pitch. His circle-change was much like a knuckler....very difficult to hit. It was kind of a unique pitch. It may not have been pretty to watch, but it certainly got the job done. And would have gotten the job done in any era.

Despite my hatred of Glavine, I agree with Mike. He was a hell of a good pitcher. He did benefit from an often wide strike zone, but he earned that strike zone as much as he could. He bamboozled umpires with his consistency and control. And honestly, even if the umps were cheating for him (which they were not), it should have been easy for MLB hitters to take advantage of slowish pitches 4 inches off the plate. Even if they guessed right they couldn't hit the ball hard, which means he must have been doing something awesome that just wasn't easily discerned on television.

I remember in 1991 when the umps got together and decided to give Glavine his own private strike zone.

The guy could pitch. His circle-change was much like a knuckler....very difficult to hit. It was kind of a unique pitch. It may not have been pretty to watch, but it certainly got the job done. And would have gotten the job done in any era.

I agree with this totally, his circle change had a late break that made it appear to be further out than it was. Plus the hitters had years of scouting reports to read, so they could have made corrections if it was as simple as "
Glavine had a special strike zone".

I saw it as an incredible and almost unparalleled consistency.

I never saw another pitcher who could throw as many pitches exactly where he intended.

Now, was that target a couple of inches outside?
I think so.

But even umpires aren't machines - this guy for 15 years kept hitting that exact inch where the ump might tend to hesitate to call a strike. But he's Glavine, and he just did it again.

I think it's an amazing skill, what he did.
I understand the complaints. I still think it's amazing.

It's like if you were in grade school and you perfectly understood EXACTLY what line to cross where you would earn a detention. So you could do all sorts of things, and get away with it, and always pull back when it got too unsafe.

I used to party with a guy we called "Envelope Man."
He could get away with any pushing of the envelope in the public square - stuff we couldn't get away with. He just knew how far he could go, though.

Kind of cool to watch.

Glavine waltzes into the Hall of Fame, obviously....

Any pitcher with that kind of control is going to have a good career, no matter what era.

Based on the first few responses I thought we were talking about John Rocker or something. I've never cared for the Braves (and that Chop in particular), but loved watching Glavine pitch. Seeing him and Maddux back in the old WTBS days was marvelous. It disgusted me how successful the Braves were, but I never got tired of seeing pitching mastery like that.

As for the whole traitor, he left us, he sucked as a Met thing...that's fandom and I know it's irrational and all, but c'mon. Glavine was great.

It disgusted me how successful the Braves were, but I never got tired of seeing pitching mastery like that.

See, the contrast between Glavine and Maddux heightened my dislike of Glavine. Maddux pitched with exceptional intelligence - you felt like you were watching him outsmart and manipulate hitters. Glavine was the opposite, it seemed like he had exactly one idea about pitching and he just stuck with it in every situation. (Of course both are oversimplifications)

I hated his later work but I definately loved Game 6 in '95.

What's the deal, though, about hating him for the strike? He caused the strike?

Among other things, Glavine's move to a QuesTec home stadium from a non-QuesTec stadium in 2003 had a significant impact on his ability to get the outside "strike."

The frustrating thing, as a fan, is that it took Glavine 2 1/2 years to change himself in response to the change in umpiring brought about by QuesTec. His being named an All-Star in 2004, due to reputation and an abnormally low first-half BABIP, probably just delayed his taking action and reinforced his (not unexpected for a major leaguer) obstinacy.

In "And a Veteran Pitcher, Glavine, Reinvents His Game" (May 23, 2006, The New York Times), Murray Chass--while still a pre-non-blogger reporter--described Glavine's "re-making" himself as a pitcher in 2005 in response to the QuesTec factor with Rick Peterson's help.

Since the 2005 All-Star Game, he has the second-lowest earned run average among starting pitchers, 2.32, slightly higher than Johan Santana's 2.19.

...

Peterson, the Mets' pitching coach, sat in the dugout after Glavine's seventh victory Sunday night and talked at length about the intriguing midseason makeover.

Glavine, Peterson explained, had made his living inducing batters to swing at pitches off the plate because umpires were calling those pitches strikes.

''If you're getting five, six inches off the plate, no hitter in baseball could cover that,'' Peterson said. ''There was no need to pitch to both sides of the plate.''

But a few years ago, Major League Baseball installed QuesTec, a computerized system of tracking balls and strikes. Those wide strikes disappeared, and with them went Glavine's dominance.

...

''We had long conversations that paralleled his game regarding golf,'' Peterson said, ''because Tommy's an avid golfer. He's actually played a round of golf with Tiger Woods. One of the things I brought up to Tommy was how Tiger Woods won the Masters by 12 strokes and immediately afterward recognized that he needed a new swing.

''I said: 'You've pitched like you've had two clubs in your bag. You've got a bunch of clubs that are great clubs that you know how to use and you just haven't used.' Tommy had a curveball, he could cut his fastball, he could throw a slider, he had two different fastballs, he had two effective changeups, he could change speeds on his changeups.''

Like all pitchers, Glavine stubbornly refused to change. Then he was battered in a game in Seattle last June 19.

''On the flight back from Seattle, we had a long talk in the back of the plane,'' Peterson related. ''Tommy,'' Peterson said he told him, ''now is the time to commit yourself to this change. I know it's tough for you to change. Let's give it four or five games. Let's see what happens. I know what's going to happen.''

In his next start, against the Yankees, Peterson said, ''he made the transition and beat them.''

...

''He never prepared for opposing hitters,'' Peterson said, ''because he threw fastballs and changeups down and away. It didn't matter who the hitter was. That's what he was going to do. Now he studies film and looks at about 45 minutes to an hour of the opposing lineup before he faces them. His preparation has been tremendous.''

I don't think you can hold it against Glavine that he made a career of taking advantage of a loophole in the calling of balls and strikes by relying on the outside "strike." Everyone had the some opportunity and the same umpires, but not the same control and ability to execute.

While one can argue that Glavine was slow to change because he was an established veteran, i.e. old dog / new tricks, in my opinion you cannot take it for granted that a young Glavine would have been flexible enough or clever enough to find some other way to succeed had the outside "strike" never been available to him.

he sucked as a Met

This is definitely not true.

But the young Glavine was flexible enough and clever enough to find a way to succeed. He didn't come into the league lighting it on fire, it took him a while to develop. And the development centered around that changeup, which he first 'discovered' in 1989. It wasn't a pitch he threw in the minors:

"One day in spring training in 1989, while standing in the outfield during batting practice, Glavine picked up a ball that had rolled toward him and, without intending to, hurled it back toward the infield with his middle and index fingers placed along the baseball’s seams and the tip of his index finger and resting atop his thumbnail. Experimenting with the new grip in subsequent games, Glavine found that he could use it to reduce the velocity of his pitches while maintaining his normal arm speed—thereby coaxing hitters to swing prematurely." (Current Biography)

Refining that pitch...and also working with the master of down-and-away Mazzone, enabled Glavine to complete turn his career around in 1991. His athletic talent (remember he was drafted in the NHL as well) was greater than many realize.

Srul Itza Posted: July 31, 2010 at 07:08 PM (#3605165)

Comment #4 is why hard-line sabermetrics occasionally upsets me.


That was one of the things I loved about Glavine -- reading the articles, year after year, explaining how he was doing it with smoke and mirrors, and how 1998 1999 2000 2001 was the year he finally got exposed.

Of course, if you keep predicting a player's going to fail, you will be right. Eventually. Even if it takes a decade to get there.

- yeh, they said the same thing about pedro martinez being to short and skinny to be a ML starter, that he'd get hurt

they got it right after like 12 years

and cmon,
the guy was an absolutely AWESOME pitcher. how many guys can hit the same spot like that? and yeah, he was smart to keep throwing it there if guys couldn't hit it and the umps called it a strike
and he is most certainly a HOF pitcher

and he most certainly WOULD have been a HOF pitcher in any era - don't tell me that all those incredible hitters BITGOD would hit that low and outside pitch

All of this hating on him is pure BS.

No, hating him is perfectly acceptable

I didn't say "hating him", I said "hating on him". There is a difference. I hate him, too. He was a nemesis as a Brave and a huge let down as a Met. But he was a great pitcher.

yeah, I was exaggerating, but I do think in any other era he is a guy who pitches a bunch of games with an ERA+ of 100ish and never sees a single HOF vote.

Look, we've already established that you're an idiot. You don't need to keep proving it.

Glavine pitched 5 seasons as a Met. His average season was 201 IP, 107 ERA+. He had a 1.59 ERA in three playoff starts. He was good for the Mets.

He ran out of gas in 2007 as he lost that little bit of velocity. It's sad that it ended that way. I also believe Glavine would have been successful no matter what ERA he pitched. He sometimes displayed a pretty curve when he need it.

I just thought I'd point out that the Glavine number-retiring ceremony will be on Friday night, the same night as the SABR Convention outing to Turner Field. I think I may be more excited for that than just about anything else at the convention. What a great time to be heading to Atlanta...

I never saw another pitcher who could throw as many pitches exactly where he intended.

Maddux?

Tom Glavine is a modern day Warren Spahn.

I thought it was BS when Glavine would get ticked off at the umps when they couldn't call the change-up a 1/2-foot off the plate a strike anymore. That's gratitude for you. He's should bring a few umps to the podium when he makes his HOF speech.