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Wednesday, December 07, 2011

Albert Pujols mulls 3 offers: Cardinals, Marlins, and 1 more

DALLAS—Marquee free-agent first baseman Albert Pujols, fueling the most lucrative bidding war in baseball history, obtained three 10-year contract proposals Tuesday that would pay him in excess of $200 million, an official close to the negotiations told USA TODAY.

The official could not comment on the negotiations because they are ongoing.

Pujols, who could announce his decision as early as Wednesday, has offers from the St. Louis Cardinals, Florida Marlins and a third team that has publicly declined to be identified. Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak confirmed his club increased its offer to Pujols late Tuesday, his first offer in nine months.

WE HAVE MYSTERY TEAM!

Gamingboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:03 AM | 113 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals, miami, rumors

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   1. 'Spos Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:17 AM (#4008763)
I call the hometown Royals.
   2. Tripon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:26 AM (#4008771)
Its the Giants.
   3. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:31 AM (#4008774)
How do you publicly decline to be identified?
   4. Colonel Samuel B. Sternwheeler Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:32 AM (#4008775)
It's the Lakers.
   5. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:35 AM (#4008779)
If the Cardinals are one of the teams offering Albert 10 years and $200+ million, then he looks like a huge ####### for going elsewhere, right?
   6. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:35 AM (#4008780)
How do you publicly decline to be identified?

Perhaps its al-Qaeda speaking through a masked spokesman.
   7. Textbook Editor Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:43 AM (#4008786)
The Giants make a whole hell of a lot of sense.

Possible mystery team: Other than the Yankees (who given the 1B/DH situation don't seem to be players), who has the coin to make a 10-year/$200+ million offer? The Cubs? I'm at a loss.

I can't imagine if the offers are close he'd leave the Cardinals, but crazier ####'s happened, I guess.
   8. TVerik, who wonders what the hell is "Ansky" Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:43 AM (#4008787)
I think it's an AL team with an entrenched first baseman who they have signed long-term and don't want to offend.
   9. Tripon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:46 AM (#4008791)
Like Ryan Howard?

On that note, how set would the Phillies be if they didn't give Ryan Howard that extension? They could have spent that money on either Fielder, or Pujols, or Reyes, or just signed a contract with Ryan Howard that addressed the fact he had an injury when he signed his contract.
   10. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:46 AM (#4008793)
Rangers?
   11. A triple short of the cycle Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:50 AM (#4008794)
The Giants make a whole hell of a lot of sense.
Why do you think so TE? It seem to me the Giants only sign crappy free agents. When have they nabbed the top FA available? (1993 comes to mind.) Since their (arguably) best young player is a first baseman (Belt), not to mention Huff is still around, I would think they should look to upgrade elsewhere.
   12. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:54 AM (#4008798)
Possible mystery team: Other than the Yankees (who given the 1B/DH situation don't seem to be players), who has the coin to make a 10-year/$200+ million offer?


The Nationals.

-- MWE
   13. Brian White Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:58 AM (#4008803)
Since their (arguably) best young player is a first baseman (Belt), not to mention Huff is still around, I would think they should look to upgrade elsewhere.


I think you look to sign Pujols *because* your first base options are Brandon Belt and Aubrey Huff, not in spite of it. Besides, if you think Belt is ready to break out, the Giants appear okay putting him in left, and they aren't exactly awash in corner outfielders.
   14. Dan Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:03 AM (#4008808)
Weren't the Giants talking about cutting payroll? I thought that was why the ownership group ousted Neukom as managing partner in favor of someone who'd spend less. They seem incredibly unlikely.

The Yankees and Red Sox have both been awfully quiet so far this offseason...
   15. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:06 AM (#4008811)
The Yankees and Red Sox have both been awfully quiet so far this offseason...

They've both have $150M 1Bs. No chance they're adding a $200M 1B.
   16. Champions Table Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:08 AM (#4008813)
The Four Horsemen (Flair, Anderson, Blanchard, Windham edition)
   17. A triple short of the cycle Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:08 AM (#4008814)
ZIPS is projecting Belt for an OPS+ of 121. And he's playing for the league minimum. Huff on the other hand looks to be done. That Sabean gives big contracts to players like Huff and Rowand is really my point - the Giants don't sign good players.
   18. The District Attorney Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:10 AM (#4008815)
The Four Horsemen (Flair, Anderson, Blanchard, Windham edition)
"But whose SIDE is he on???"
   19. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:12 AM (#4008817)
I've heard reports that the Cubs have made Pujols an offer.
   20. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:16 AM (#4008820)
"But whose SIDE is he on???"

Bobby Heenan is one of my favorite wrestling personalities of all time, but he kind of took some of the surprise out of that angle by even suggesting that Hulk Hogan might be the mystery partner.

I've heard reports that the Cubs have made Pujols an offer.


Allegedly for fewer years, though.
   21. The District Attorney Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:18 AM (#4008822)
Bobby Heenan is one of my favorite wrestling personalities of all time, but he kind of took some of the surprise out of that angle by even suggesting that Hulk Hogan might be the mystery partner.
Yup, totally. (Of course, it all ended up working out pretty decent financially for a while... but still, not recommended technique...)
   22. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:19 AM (#4008823)
I'm putting 5 dollars down on the Pirates.
   23. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:23 AM (#4008827)
On that note, how set would the Phillies be if they didn't give Ryan Howard that extension? They could have spent that money on either Fielder, or Pujols, or Reyes, or just signed a contract with Ryan Howard that addressed the fact he had an injury when he signed his contract.
pujols is looking for 10 years.

fielder is looking for 8.

ryan howard is signed for 5. the team paid a premium to do it. it doesn't look too ####### good right now, but his contract isn't gonna cripple the team now or in the future.
   24. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:26 AM (#4008829)
The Four Horsemen (Flair, Anderson, Blanchard, Windham edition)


can i just take a moment to say how unwatchable TNA is right now. even just reading the two sentence description of impact on the onscreen guide makes me literally (figuratively) facepalm. it's just complete garbage.
   25. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:29 AM (#4008835)
I've heard reports that the Cubs have made Pujols an offer.


Word is that the Cubs offer is high dollar, but well shy on the length side.
   26. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:35 AM (#4008842)
Absolutely the Nats.

Well, if they do land him it would go a long towards justifying their ticket prices.

Word is that the Cubs offer is high dollar, but well shy on the length side.


And I'm guessing well short of total dollar value as well.
   27. aberg Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:36 AM (#4008845)
can i just take a moment to say how unwatchable TNA is right now. even just reading the two sentence description of impact on the onscreen guide makes me literally (figuratively) facepalm. it's just complete garbage.


Oh God yes. The Bobby roode angle could not have been any worse at bfg and after. I like a lot of their talent but i'm out.
   28. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:46 AM (#4008853)
Word is that the Cubs offer is high dollar, but well shy on the length side.



And I'm guessing well short of total dollar value as well.


It's just idle radio chatter/rumor reporting, but what I heard on the ride home is that the Cubs actually came in highest on AAV, but for several years shorter than anyone else was offering. I suppose that also means the total $$$ value was low, but regardless -- if we're looking at something in the 8-10/200+ million range, I'd pass, too.
   29. A triple short of the cycle Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:49 AM (#4008857)
the Cubs actually came in highest on AAV, but for several years shorter than anyone else was offering

Sounds like a smart offer from a smart GM.
   30. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:53 AM (#4008866)
Sounds like a smart offer from a smart GM.


then it couldn't have been the Cubs, their Gm is Theo Epstein. I don't think he's ever made a smart offer on a free agent. He usually leverages his massive resources to get the guy he wants, whether he needs him or not.
   31. Tripon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:58 AM (#4008874)
Theo Epstein is the Cubs president. Jed Hoyer is the GM of the Cubs.
   32. DA Baracus Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:01 AM (#4008878)
What we need is an hour long special where Albert Pujols announces he's taking his talents to South Beach.
   33. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:01 AM (#4008879)
You know - CW on these large superstar contracts is that you end up baking in a couple of blech years that technically speaking, end up being more or less a 'signing bonus'.

I've often wondered why more GMs don't do more of the higher AAV/fewer years offers. I guess I can understand the "last contract" mentality from a player, but it's not like security is at issue. I suppose you can never have to worry about moving again -- and I understand the team perspective of spending 200 over 10 perhaps making more sense than 200 over say, 7...

But still - you're sucking up a roster spot during (more than likely) drek years and even if you sign the deal knowing the last couple years are just sunk costs - you almost always end up wasting ABs or IP on a player not worth it. Releasing a player and just eating 50 million isn't something any team easily does.

I guess luxury tax implications can play into it, too.
   34. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:07 AM (#4008888)
Ken Rosenthal says the Angels are bidding on Pujols.
   35. Tripon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:16 AM (#4008901)
If that's true, I can see Pujols or Kendrys playing 1B, with the other DHing, and Trumbo playing 3rd. You'll just trade Bobby Abreu, and eat most of the salary, or just cut him. Also, Vernon Wells will be shot out of a cannon.
   36. Walt Davis Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:16 AM (#4008902)
I've often wondered why more GMs don't do more of the higher AAV/fewer years offers.

In which sense? I mean if one team offers 6/$200 and another offers 8/$200 then surely (all else equal) the player takes 6/$200 but there's no advantage there for the team.

So I assume you're thinking 6/$180 vs 8/$200. Then it's just a matter of which wants to gamble. If the player thinks he can get more than 2/$20 6 years later, he might go for the first offer. On the other hand, if the first team really wants the player, an addition 2/$20 is not that big a deal.

And then you get into NPV where the 8/$200 deal is probably about the same NPV as 6/$180 in which case the player might as well take 6/$180.

In Pujols' case, if it's 10/$200 I have no real problem with that from the Cubs' perspective given I was "willing" to go 8/$200. 10/$250 is probably past my breaking point. Anyway, there's a lot of wriggle room in "in excess of $200 M".
   37. Textbook Editor Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:17 AM (#4008903)
Hmmm... Pujols to the Angels would be interesting. One by-product of allowing more playoff teams (even though the 2 additional ones only are guaranteed a 1-game playoff) is that more teams see value in finishing second in their division. Finishing 2nd in the West has more value now that you don't need to worry about the 2nd team in the East taking your "spot."
   38. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:19 AM (#4008904)
can i just take a moment to say how unwatchable TNA is right now. even just reading the two sentence description of impact on the onscreen guide makes me literally (figuratively) facepalm. it's just complete garbage.


I find most current pro wrestling unbearable, but TNA sounds comically bad from what friends tell me. A buddy of mine got free tickets to a TNA house show last month, so we went just for the laughs. I was underwhelmed by almost all of the wrestling, but got a laugh out of Scott Steiner getting on the house mic and saying, "I usually like to pick a couple of ladies out of the audience to take back to my hotel room. But the problem is that I'm looking out in the crowd right now and all I see are ugly #######."

To TNA's credit, they conjured up a really loud crowd thanks to the promise of free backstage passes for the loudest fans throughout the show.
   39. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:19 AM (#4008905)
post 34...ultimately it's about the total dollar amount of the contract. If two teams offer the same overall dollar amount then of course the team with the shorter year would win the bidding, but it never works like that. The extra year or two security means something to the player, it means he'll be given the best chance to play when he isn't the same player that he used to be. The security of the job in the last couple of seasons probably has some inherent value.

If I'm offered a 10 year 200 mil or an 8 year 180 mil, I'll probably lean very strongly towards the 10 year contract, it's more guaranteed money, and if I want, I'll still have a job 10 years down the road. On top of that, there is a legitimate possibility that after 8 years, I might not be worthy of getting even a 2 year 20 mil contract. or extent it out to a 8 year 190 vs 10 year 200, again, there is a possibility I won't be worth even a 2 year 10 mil contract...so ultimately it's about the raw dollar amount.

edit: or what Walt said.
   40. Spahn Insane Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:20 AM (#4008907)
Word is that the Cubs offer is high dollar, but well shy on the length side.

Good on them. The availability of Fielder hurts Pujols's leverage a little. I wouldn't want the Cubs to go 10.
   41. Rally Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:21 AM (#4008908)
"What we need is an hour long special where Albert Pujols announces he's taking his talents to South Beach."

They've already signed his D Wade. Mark the Marlins down for a World Series loss in 2012.
   42. Tripon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:26 AM (#4008911)
Albert Pujols will go to the Rays for 8 years/110 million and the team being renamed the Pujols.
   43. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:34 AM (#4008924)
They've already signed his D Wade. Mark the Marlins down for a World Series loss in 2012.
isn't that role usually reserved for the rangers?
   44. spike Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:35 AM (#4008927)
I guess luxury tax implications can play into it, too.

Personal tax issues too.
   45. , Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#4008932)
I'm putting 5 dollars down on the Pirates.

Congratulations! What do you plan to do with the team, now you've bought it?
   46. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:45 AM (#4008938)
Personal tax issues too.

In terms of location but not in terms of contract length and amount. Not at these amounts.
   47. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:46 AM (#4008939)

Congratulations! What do you plan to do with the team, now you've bought it?


I plan on getting a ton of free handouts.
   48. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:51 AM (#4008943)


I find most current pro wrestling unbearable, but TNA sounds comically bad from what friends tell me.
it's worse than that. if it were only comically bad, there might be some entertainment value in it, but what they are right now is an organization which grossly mistreat their mid-card and female talent (to the point where they celebrate qualifying for food stamps and have to sue the company for failure to pay medical bills and creating a dangerous work environment while paying hogan and bischoff millions, and russo, flair (and any reality tv star who happens to be liked by the boss's daughter) hundreds of thousands for "work" that doesn't draw a single penny for the company.


anyway, comically bad would be a very large step up for TNA, relative to my current opinion of it.
   49. musial6 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:54 AM (#4008947)
The most important factors are....

1) How many elite years does Pujols have left?

2) How much is an ordinary Pujols worth purely in terms of marketing value?

This is such an difficult contract to value because the first number is so unclear while the second number is so relatively high.
   50. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:52 AM (#4008980)
Ordinary Pujols has a marketing value that is probably pretty close to zero for any team besides the Cardinals.

He might sold some extra tickets 10 years from now if it is his final year but an Albert Pujols that plays like an old Lyle Overbay has next to no marketing value.
   51. Nasty Nate Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:53 AM (#4008982)
Marquee free-agent first baseman Albert Pujols, fueling the most lucrative bidding war in baseball history, obtained three 10-year contract proposals Tuesday that would pay him in excess of $200 million


unless the offers are north of $50 million "in excess" maybe they should hold off on calling it the most lucrative bidding war...

an Albert Pujols that plays like an old Lyle Overbay has next to no marketing value.


I don't think this mythical beast exists
   52. smileyy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:06 AM (#4008990)
I'm impressed that TNA can replicate so many of WCW's mistakes.
   53. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:08 AM (#4008993)
It looka likw Marlins have the right amount of years and dollars to get Pujols but won't give him a no trade clause. Just weird. Perhaps they don't really want him but just want to build some buzz around the team.
   54. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:11 AM (#4008995)
It looka likw Marlins have the right amount of years and dollars to get Pujols but won't give him a no trade clause. Just weird. Perhaps they don't really want him but just want to build some buzz around the team.


really not offering a no trade clause on a ten year contract? Yep, have to agree, can't be to confident about keeping him if that is the case, a no trade clause is only meaningful for the first five years of the contract.
   55. Good cripple hitter Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:19 AM (#4008999)
On the astronomically small chance that this happens, I want to be the one who predicts that the mystery team is the Blue Jays. Beeston's constantly said that there's money available if the time/player is right, Adam Lind currently plays first for them and he's neither expensive enough or good enough to prevent this signing from happening, and it would certainly help the team be more competitive in the AL East.

I had a long TNA rant here, but they're not worth it. It just amazes/infuriates me how they have had so many advantages in terms of talent and situation and have squandered them for almost literally no gain over several years of being WWE's only competition. The amount of talent they they've either wasted, fired, or not signed at all is just staggering. They have a prime time TV slot to promote whatever they want, so they promote... Hogan vs Sting? In 2011? While simultaneously managing to degrade the rest of their talent? It's remarkable, someone really should write a book on this.
   56. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:26 AM (#4009002)
Rotoworld is saying that it's between the Marlins and Cards.
   57. Endless Trash Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:30 AM (#4009005)
Ohhh Mystery team. The Marlins are the Marlins, but the mystery team could be anyone. It could even be the Marlins!
   58. Champions Table Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:33 AM (#4009006)
I'd always heard how bad the Russo-era WCW was, but I never believed it until watching the New Blood Rising PPV this week. We know the action is staged, but the commentators don't have to insist on REMINDING us.

But really, I think all I need to say is, Judy Bagwell on a Forklift Match.
   59. smileyy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:36 AM (#4009007)

I had a long TNA rant here, but they're not worth it. It just amazes/infuriates me how they have had so many advantages in terms of talent and situation and have squandered them for almost literally no gain over several years of being WWE's only competition. The amount of talent they they've either wasted, fired, or not signed at all is just staggering. They have a prime time TV slot to promote whatever they want, so they promote... Hogan vs Sting? In 2011? While simultaneously managing to degrade the rest of their talent? It's remarkable, someone really should write a book on this.


So you're telling me that Eric Bischoff and Vince Russo took what didn't work 15 years ago, replicated it nearly to the letter, and are shocked that its not working now?

Eric Bischoff is too big to fail, apparently.
   60. LionoftheSenate Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:39 AM (#4009009)
Since their (arguably) best young player is a first baseman (Belt), not to mention Huff is still around, I would think they should look to upgrade elsewhere.



I think you look to sign Pujols *because* your first base options are Brandon Belt and Aubrey Huff, not in spite of it. Besides, if you think Belt is ready to break out, the Giants appear okay putting him in left, and they aren't exactly awash in corner outfielders.


Why do people think trades are not part of the puzzle?
   61. Good cripple hitter Posted: December 07, 2011 at 07:05 AM (#4009016)
But really, I think all I need to say is, Judy Bagwell on a Forklift Match.


WWE just booked Kevin Nash vs Triple H in a ladder match in the year 2011. My mind boggles at the possibilities.
   62. The NeverEnding Torii (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh) Posted: December 07, 2011 at 08:47 AM (#4009024)
Bobby Heenan is one of my favorite wrestling personalities of all time, but he kind of took some of the surprise out of that angle by even suggesting that Hulk Hogan might be the mystery partner.

Yup, totally. (Of course, it all ended up working out pretty decent financially for a while... but still, not recommended technique...)


One of Bobby Heenan's things over the years was his absolute, steadfast hatred and mistrust of Hulk Hogan. He hated him in every promotion they crossed paths in. WIth the nWo, Heenan was in the position of a heel announcer who was on the side of WCW because he was a professional who was disgusted with what these "outsiders" were doing. It completely made sense within his character that he would even think that Hogan would turn heel on WCW. There's also the fact that in '96 before the Monday Night Wars REALLY got going, turns were done much less frequently. Even when arenas were sick of Hogan's act and booing him, NOBODY - even the smartest, most insider fan possible - thought anyone would ever turn him heel because he still had the name value and it was such a proven success.

Wrestling fans bring up this "Heenan ruined it" thing a lot nowadays, but I've gotta say it feels like revisionist history because I don't remember ANYBODY back then saying "Heenan blew it and revealed the turn".
   63. Boxkutter Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:32 AM (#4009028)
One by-product of allowing more playoff teams (even though the 2 additional ones only are guaranteed a 1-game playoff) is that more teams see value in finishing second in their division. Finishing 2nd in the West has more value now that you don't need to worry about the 2nd team in the East taking your "spot."


The second place team in the west still has to worry about the third place team in the east.
   64. Boxkutter Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:36 AM (#4009029)
Wrestling fans bring up this "Heenan ruined it" thing a lot nowadays, but I've gotta say it feels like revisionist history because I don't remember ANYBODY back then saying "Heenan blew it and revealed the turn".


I think you're spot on there. I was a pretty big wrestling junkie back in the late 90s and early 00s, even ran the largest MSN Group (anyone remember those? lol) about pro-wrestling, and this is quite literally the first time I have ever heard about this "Heenan ruined it" thing. Never once read it in an article at any of the popular sites back in the day or heard a single person ever mention it in a chatroom.
   65. musial6 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:11 PM (#4009077)
Ordinary Pujols has a marketing value that is probably pretty close to zero for any team besides the Cardinals.


Agreed on the point - which would be true most years, but not in 2012 (granted you're in trouble if he's ordinary in year 1 of 10) where his marketing impact would be greater in a new city vs the net loss in STL (where they take less of a hit as reigning WS champs) - or any year in which Pujols hypothetically gets traded to yet another team.

Also factor in the the 3000 hit and 500/600/700* HR milestones bumps that would apply in any market.

*he'd need to average 25.5 HR over 10 years for 700
   66. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:31 PM (#4009086)
Wrestling fans bring up this "Heenan ruined it" thing a lot nowadays, but I've gotta say it feels like revisionist history because I don't remember ANYBODY back then saying "Heenan blew it and revealed the turn".


I guess that's fair. I was 12 and subsequently devastated when Hogan turned. I only got the WWF PPVs (I actually managed a nice streak of coercing my mom into buying ever WWF show from Summerslam '91 to mid-2003), so I heard of the turn and didn't actually see it until many months later. Upon that first viewing, the comment still stood out, though, especially since Tony Schiavone sounded like it legitimately caught him off guard.

Vince Russo eventually desensitized us to the concept of turns, but I agree that at the time, they were almost always notable. It's still for me the most shocking turn in wrestling history.

Shawn Michaels throwing Marty Jannetty through the Barbershop window is still my favorite heel turn ever, though.
   67. Andere Richtingen Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:33 PM (#4009087)
Also factor in the the 3000 hit and 500/600/700* HR milestones bumps that would apply in any market.

I think it's hard to say what the future will bring, but it seems to me that the panache associated with such milestones has depreciated pretty seriously in the last decade.
   68. Spahn Insane Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:10 PM (#4009169)
I think it's hard to say what the future will bring, but it seems to me that the panache associated with such milestones has depreciated pretty seriously in the last decade.

Because people are (smartly) focusing less on the "record chase" and moment in which the record's ultimately broken than they are on the fact that having one of those guys means you're giving PT to an old dude in decline.
   69. Karl from NY Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:25 PM (#4009186)
It looka likw Marlins have the right amount of years and dollars to get Pujols but won't give him a no trade clause. Just weird.

Not weird at all. A trade is the Marlins' plan B if Pujols doesn't measure up to the contract or if the rest of the team collapses around him. Mark Teixeira's contract is up after 2016, exactly halfway through the proposed Pujols contract, and exactly when the Marlins could be unloading him for the 2016 version of Alfonso Soriano.

It also just so happens that Derek Jeter's contract (the option year) expires exactly halfway through the Reyes contract.
   70. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:40 PM (#4009203)
I never understand team's willingness to include a no trade clause for a superstar. You don't sign a guy like Pujols with the plan to deal him and the fact is a NTC does NOT mean he can't be traded, it means he can veto a trade. If the 2017 Marlins are sinking like a stone and the Yankees need a first baseman, I suspect the Yankees will be quite content to deal "Alfonso Soriano" for Pujols and kick in an extra million a year to buy their way out of the NTC.

If the Marlins are really that concerned about it they probably shouldn't be giving him a ten year contract.
   71. Nasty Nate Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:49 PM (#4009215)
Jose, I assume you meant "unwillingness," right?
   72. DiPoto Cabengo Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:06 PM (#4009247)
RAW is misery.
   73. zenbitz Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:07 PM (#4009249)
If mystery team was the Giants no way would they be secretive about it. They didnt even bother to try to get Reyes which is about a 5x better fit.
   74. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:16 PM (#4009266)
a NTC does NOT mean he can't be traded, it means he can veto a trade
that seems like exactly the reason pujols would insist on having one

and considering who we're dealing with here, the fact that miami is making an issue of this basically telegraphs their intent to move him at some point in the near future.
   75. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:19 PM (#4009272)
Jose, I assume you meant "unwillingness," right


Yup. At least it doesn't completely reverse my point...oh wait.
   76. TVerik, who wonders what the hell is "Ansky" Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:29 PM (#4009286)
the fact that miami is making an issue of this basically telegraphs their intent to move him at some point in the near future.


I don't think that's fair. It telegraphs nothing more than their intent to remain trade-flexible. Maybe the team has a policy of not giving out no-trade clauses for anyone (for while management will likely change hands in the midst of a long-term contract, ownership may not do so, and may not want to be hamstrung by this particular contract detail).
   77. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:34 PM (#4009292)
Mark Teixeira's contract is up after 2016, exactly halfway through the proposed Pujols contract, and exactly when the Marlins could be unloading him for the 2016 version of Alfonso Soriano.

After 2016 Pujols will have full no trade protection since he'll be a 10-5 player.

The ability to trade him only comes into play the first 5 seasons of his contract after that he has it regardless of what Florida wants and does not want in the contract. Basically Florida is standing firm on wanting to be able to trade Albert at any time to anywhere over the next 5 seasons. Which as I said is just weird.

I think what this is telegraphing is that either Loria doesn't have the money or is not prepared to risk a loss at some point down the road. I'm thinking he is hedging his bets on fan turnout. If he spends all this money and opens a new stadium and in three years they are drawing 5,000 a game he wants to be able to unload all these contracts and go back to pocketing 30 million a year in revenue sharing profits.
   78. , Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:41 PM (#4009304)
I'm thinking he is hedging his bets on fan turnout. If he spends all this money and opens a new stadium and in three years they are drawing 5,000 a game he wants to be able to unload all these contracts and go back to pocketing 30 million a year in revenue sharing profits.

Probably right. And, of course, if Pujols goes to Miami and three years from now it is as you describe, he'll likely want out.
   79. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:47 PM (#4009313)
And, of course, if Pujols goes to Miami and three years from now it is as you describe, he'll likely want out.

But he'll want a payday as well or at the very least a say in where he goes.
   80. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 07, 2011 at 08:26 PM (#4009516)
How do you publicly decline to be identified?

Perhaps its al-Qaeda speaking through a masked spokesman.


As a Cardinals fan, it would upset me if Pujols left to join al-Qaeda.
   81. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 07, 2011 at 08:35 PM (#4009534)
it would upset me if Pujols left to join al-Qaeda.

Probably not much worse than joining the Cubs. And the concern over watching him win the Series in another uniform would be about the same.
   82. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: December 07, 2011 at 08:54 PM (#4009553)
As a Cardinals fan, it would upset me if Pujols left to join al-Qaeda.
And we have a late entrant in the "Out of Context Awesome Statement of the Year" contest!
   83. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:14 PM (#4009585)
I don't think that's fair. It telegraphs nothing more than their intent to remain trade-flexible. Maybe the team has a policy of not giving out no-trade clauses for anyone (for while management will likely change hands in the midst of a long-term contract, ownership may not do so, and may not want to be hamstrung by this particular contract detail).
the last big free agent they signed was carlos delgado. his contract paid him $4mm in year 1, and then $13+mm in years 2-5.

needless to say, he was traded after year 1.


there is absolutely no reason to give loria the benefit of the doubt in this situation, and the fact that he's unwilling to close this deal with a NTC should make it entirely clear that he's not actually committed to contending, and that he'll pull the plug out from under this team if he even gets a hint that his profit margin will be at risk.


the fact that this NTC is an issue at all should just serve to double down on pujols' insistence on having it.
   84. Addison Russell T. Davies (chris h.) Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:20 PM (#4009593)
Not to defend Loria, but perhaps we're reading too much into this.

A no-trade clause has value, otherwise nobody would care. We can debate what that value is until the cows come home, but if Albert wants one, then it becomes part of the negotiations, yes? Which means it will be haggled over, just like everything else.

I guess what I'm saying is that negotiations produce a lot of noise that, ultimately, doesn't mean ####. Couldn't this just be part of that noise?
   85. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:39 PM (#4009620)
Couldn't this just be part of that noise?
could it be? sure.


but this is an organization that will never deserve the benefit of the doubt when there's another plausible explanation.
   86. Addison Russell T. Davies (chris h.) Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:52 PM (#4009632)
Fair enough.
   87. jmurph Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:55 PM (#4009637)
Well, Rosenthal is saying on twitter that they've signed Buehrle.
   88. Greg K Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:58 PM (#4009640)
so I'm assuming this means Pujols to Cardinals, Wilson to Angels?
   89. Nasty Nate Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:00 PM (#4009643)
why are the yankees seemingly not making offers to Wilson?
   90. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:05 PM (#4009647)
why are the yankees seemingly not making offers to Wilson?


The same reason the Red Sox aren't. A 5-6 year deal for CJ Wilson is a big investment. I think there are enough fair questions about this guy to shy away.
   91. Nasty Nate Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:11 PM (#4009654)
The same reason the Red Sox aren't. A 5-6 year deal for CJ Wilson is a big investment. I think there are enough fair questions about this guy to shy away.


But that applies to the Angels, Rangers, Marlins etc also. And he would be a smaller investment to NY than he would be to the others.
   92. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:27 PM (#4009666)
But that applies to the Angels, Rangers, Marlins etc also. And he would be a smaller investment to NY than he would be to the others.


I suppose but they've clearly decided he is worth the risk. I didn't mean to be quite snooty as I sounded but I think it's a simple fact that the Yankees and Sox don't feel he is worth it. This isn't Halladay or someone that it's a no brainer. I think both "go get him" and "stay away" are defendable positions.
   93. Nasty Nate Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:37 PM (#4009680)
I think it's a simple fact that the Yankees and Sox don't feel he is worth it.


If the Yankees never make him an offer, then this is a fact. I guess my question was more why don't the Yankees think that he is worth it - given their SP need and payroll clout?
   94. Lassus Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:42 PM (#4009686)
As long as we're speaking of the Marlins, there are reports - how reliable, who knows - that Hanley is unhappy with moving positions. D'oh.
   95. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:45 PM (#4009690)
As long as we're speaking of the Marlins, there are reports - how reliable, who knows - that Hanley is unhappy with moving positions. D'oh.
doesn't reyes have experience at 2B? and isn't he more likely to have injury issues related to the greater workload that comes with playing SS, as opposed to 2B?
   96. Dr. Vaux Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:46 PM (#4009691)
Maybe they really do intend to have the same payroll as the Red Sox by 2014. I wonder if there's a deal among the Steinbrenners, John Henry, and Bud Selig to that effect that allowed the new CBA to go through. The Steinbrenners must be getting some kind of unfathomable bribe in return if that's the case, though.
   97. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:48 PM (#4009692)
If the Yankees never make him an offer, then this is a fact. I guess my question was more why don't the Yankees think that he is worth it - given their SP need and payroll clout?
The Yankees pursuit of Mark Teixeira might be analogous here - a guy who clearly fit their needs, whom they waited out until the market was established and made an offer of about 5-10% bigger than what was out there. Especially if the alleged 6-year offer from the Marlins is off the table, I'm expecting the Yankees to try to get Wilson for a contract a little under $100M.
   98. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:51 PM (#4009697)
As long as we're speaking of the Marlins, there are reports - how reliable, who knows - that Hanley is unhappy with moving positions. D'oh.


Good!

I hope this all blows up in Loria's face... dream 2012 scenario -- as the Marlins drop their 9th straight to fall an even 20 games back on August 1, federal agents enter the owner's box and arrest Loria over the stadium extortion/financing.
   99. Textbook Editor Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:53 PM (#4009701)
Yeah, I keep waiting for the Yankees to offer Wilson a few million more than the last, best offer on the table and just sign him that way. Unless I see Wilson in another team's jersey, I'm still going to think he'll wind up a Yankee.
   100. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: December 07, 2011 at 10:54 PM (#4009704)
96 - wouldn't the reduced workload at second base be offset by the position switch as an injury reducing benefit? It's been what, six years since Reyes played second base?
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